Clearly. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> He sucked at philosophy anyway, he was lying about it all.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 5 2004, 07:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 5 2004, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AlienCow!+Nov 5 2004, 01:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienCow! @ Nov 5 2004, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol, cheers for the update whoever gave it to me - could have guessed though; its the usual screams of the insane. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Just because people claim things, doesn't make it true. Who says the Bible isn't just a big book of interesting and extraordinary legends?
You say that millions of people can't have been deceived by Jesus - why not? They are worshipping something that doesn't exist, the only proof they have is the word of everybody else and the word of the Bible, which no one can prove is true.
I hate it when religious people call me insane or ignorant, THEY are the ones ignoring the FACTs, or lack of facts as it were... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says George Washington was our first president? Who says Abraham Lincoln ever existed, was a President, got shot?
The Bible is not written as <b>Beowulf</b>. It is not written as fiction, it is written as a historical document, just like our Declaration of Independence is written.
Here's a nice Christian cop-out that I like alot, cop-out as it is, it's true. I haven't seen the Bahamas but I trust they exist, I don't have the funds or means to get there but I have faith that it exists.
I don't know wether or not someone poisoned my water but I drink in faith. As I said earlier, why do you think there is all this commotion about Jesus?
I've already answered that, because Satan lies and decieves. He doesn't care if someone believes in the Bahamas or believes their water is OK to drink. But he DOES very much care if you believe in Jesus or not. That's why there is so much confusion about it all.
EDIT: And by the way, I called you, decieved and your argument foolish not insane or ignorant. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Didn't mean specifically you, just people pretty much like you. I have seen photos of the Bahamas. I haven't seen too many photos of Jesus lying around, ah well.
Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.
Who says the bible isn't written as Beowulf was? I just have your word on that.
I don't believe in Satan strangely enough, so I don't think I have been deceived by him. Millions of people have been deceived by a huge book of moral tales, they desire something to worship and something to believe in.
Theres so many other religions in the world, ALL of the major ones will be saying almost EXACTLY the same thing as you. What makes Christianity right over Buddhism? No one can PROVE EITHER of their God(s?) exist, ever existed, will ever exist. Ever. EVER.
I am glad you like that anology better DarkAti/Swiftspear. Now it is time to take "their" side of it as well.
They are asking for proof that Jesus was God's son, now if you wish to try to prove that, you have to choose a medium that isn't as hotly contested as the Bible is.
Therein lies your fault. If you wish to convince someone, and have it not be on faith, but on actual fact, you have to choose a source that isn't contested and doesn't contradict itself so much.
Again, I shall rely on the Atlantis theory.
Example: Atlantis was an island, that much is very true, there is geographical evidence there were at least 4 to 5 island in the Atlantic at the time of the supposed sinking. As to if there was an actual city, let alone a very advanced civilization on that island is what is so hotly contested. So dismissing Plato's writings as luny, and far-fetched, you have to prove some other way that there WAS a civilation on that island, and it made the Egyptians at their peak look like cavemen. Keep in mind Atlantis was supposedly flourishing around 12,000 BC or so. So untill some real evidence can be given that there was a city/people so advanced that long ago, you can not claim it isn't real.
Same goes for Jesus, with any mythology you have to be able to prove at least a few facts, so there was a man that lived long ago, or perhaps a group of men that is more likely then one person. They made a huge impact with certain moral values that have become common place, but to make it easier to read these men (read discpiles(sp)) based it on one man. Sure makes the whole Christianity relgion look better in my book, rather then basing it on a singular person who was doing things no one can. :-)
In any event, just my two cents. I do hope it helps.
<!--QuoteBegin-WoT|Lanfear+Nov 6 2004, 12:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WoT|Lanfear @ Nov 6 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am glad you like that anology better DarkAti/Swiftspear. Now it is time to take "their" side of it as well.
They are asking for proof that Jesus was God's son, now if you wish to try to prove that, you have to choose a medium that isn't as hotly contested as the Bible is.
Therein lies your fault. If you wish to convince someone, and have it not be on faith, but on actual fact, you have to choose a source that isn't contested and doesn't contradict itself so much.
Again, I shall rely on the Atlantis theory.
Example: Atlantis was an island, that much is very true, there is geographical evidence there were at least 4 to 5 island in the Atlantic at the time of the supposed sinking. As to if there was an actual city, let alone a very advanced civilization on that island is what is so hotly contested. So dismissing Plato's writings as luny, and far-fetched, you have to prove some other way that there WAS a civilation on that island, and it made the Egyptians at their peak look like cavemen. Keep in mind Atlantis was supposedly flourishing around 12,000 BC or so. So untill some real evidence can be given that there was a city/people so advanced that long ago, you can not claim it isn't real.
Same goes for Jesus, with any mythology you have to be able to prove at least a few facts, so there was a man that lived long ago, or perhaps a group of men that is more likely then one person. They made a huge impact with certain moral values that have become common place, but to make it easier to read these men (read discpiles(sp)) based it on one man. Sure makes the whole Christianity relgion look better in my book, rather then basing it on a singular person who was doing things no one can. :-)
In any event, just my two cents. I do hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, (Man, I like this neutral guy Lanfear - until he starts giving advice to the Atheists and others. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> haha j/k )
Correct me if I'm wrong but most people in here believe that the Bible is incorrect, fiction or otherwise full of faults and therefore not worthy to be believed in.
Please correct me if that isn't the case.
So, as I understand it, if I could prove to you that the Bible was accurate then I could prove to you it was worthy of your belief and if the Bible is worthy of belief and faultless than Jesus was who he said he was and their is a heaven and a hell that individuals depart to after death, correct?
Here's some evidence.
Exhibit A -------------------------- Sodom and Gomorrah Ruins Discovered --------------------------
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Didn't mean specifically you, just people pretty much like you. I have seen photos of the Bahamas. I haven't seen too many photos of Jesus lying around, ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who says the bible isn't written as Beowulf was? I just have your word on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the word of the many authors of the Bible. My point was it was not dclared by the authors as fiction, most of them declared the exact opposite, like John.
"And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe."
- John 19:35
PAUL'S TESTIMONEY ------------------------ Saul (later his named was changed to Paul.) persecuted Christians heavily. He was well-known and very out-spoken about his disbelief in Jesus. His conversion story.
"At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the ****. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me"
- Acts 26:13-21
These authors clearly were not writing fiction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't believe in Satan strangely enough, so I don't think I have been deceived by him. Millions of people have been deceived by a huge book of moral tales, they desire something to worship and something to believe in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in Gravity... you know where I'm going with that. Disbelief in soemthing doesn't make it non-existen... though I ahve heard perception is your reality and I suppose that is true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Theres so many other religions in the world, ALL of the major ones will be saying almost EXACTLY the same thing as you. What makes Christianity right over Buddhism? No one can PROVE EITHER of their God(s?) exist, ever existed, will ever exist. Ever. EVER.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead.
Oh I hear you already, "I don't believe he did so he's just another dude."
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But could only manage it once. All I'm saying is that there is essentially no difference.
Essentially they are the same. Ultimately they are not.
Jesus came back as Jesus, everyone knew he was Jesus, he was in the same body and was the exact same person. The "14th Dali Lama" was recognized as the 13th's "predecessor". It doesn't sound like reincarnation at all to me, it sounds more like, "we pick a new leader who is the most like the last one."
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 05:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 05:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Nov 6 2004, 03:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 03:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But could only manage it once. All I'm saying is that there is essentially no difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> He never died a second time, hence no need to do it again.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 05:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Essentially they are the same. Ultimately they are not.
Jesus came back as Jesus, everyone knew he was Jesus, he was in the same body and was the exact same person. The "14th Dali Lama" was recognized as the 13th's "predecessor". It doesn't sound like reincarnation at all to me, it sounds more like, "we pick a new leader who is the most like the last one."
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey hey now. we're operating under the assumption that all religions could be true. The 14th Dali Llama is believe to literally be the same person (soul wise). If thats true, than he has come back to life 13 times more than jesus. Therfore your argument that Christianity is the only religion wherin the leader came back to life is entirely false. I've seen much better arguements for why Christianity is the "one" religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He never died a second time, hence no need to do it again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Entirely not the point.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 02:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Exhibit A -------------------------- Sodom and Gomorrah Ruins Discovered --------------------------
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> THAT'S the kind of stuff I like to see! I'll begin doing some of my own looking around now on the subject, thanks for the material <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually brimstone is not pure sulfur. It IS actually Iron Sulfide, <a href='http://web.ask.com/redir?bpg=http%3a%2f%2fweb.ask.com%2fweb%3fq%3dWhat%2bis%2bBrimstone%253f%26o%3d0%26page%3d1&q=What+is+Brimstone%3f&u=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fr%3ft%3dan%26s%3da6%26uid%3d008EE56E8D366D814%26sid%3d12C0666E8D366D814%26qid%3d873D0B6ED94B0D4D9138245F84587A8C%26io%3d0%26sv%3dza5cb0db0%26o%3d0%26ask%3dWhat%2bis%2bBrimstone%253f%26uip%3d408b3fb6%26en%3dte%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3dFIRE%2bAND%2bBRIMSTONE%2b(REACTIONS%2bOF%2bSULFUR)%26ac%3d15%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26ep%3d1%26te_par%3d102%26te_id%3d%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fwww.woodrow.org%2fteachers%2fchemistry%2finstitutes%2f1986%2fexp13.html&s=a6&bu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.woodrow.org%2fteachers%2fchemistry%2finstitutes%2f1986%2fexp13.html&qte=0&o=0&abs=FIRE+AND+BRIMSTONE+(REACTIONS+OF+SULFUR)&****=FIRE+AND+BRIMSTONE+(REACTIONS+OF+SULFUR)&bin=&cat=wp&purl=http%3a%2f%2ftm.wc.ask.com%2fi%2fb.html%3ft%3dan%26s%3da6%26uid%3d008EE56E8D366D814%26sid%3d12C0666E8D366D814%26qid%3d873D0B6ED94B0D4D9138245F84587A8C%26io%3d%26sv%3dza5cb0db0%26o%3d0%26ask%3dWhat%2bis%2bBrimstone%253f%26uip%3d408b3fb6%26en%3dbm%26eo%3d-100%26pt%3d%26ac%3d24%26qs%3d0%26pg%3d1%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fmyjeeves.ask.com%2faction%2fsnip&Complete=1' target='_blank'>Source</a>
Secondly, yes if you can prove the bible historically accurate, without referring to any references actually IN the bible its self. I shall admit that it is truth. Keep in mind, most of the written accounts of people from that era probably isn't accurate and unless you have some magical way of traveling back in time to visit them there WILL be some assumptions that have to be made.
That being said however, there are some things we must clear up, the Bible, IS a historical document, a very well written one I might add. It is by no means a first person account of what happened then, as you can tell by the various omissions/contradictions that are present. So, what you need to do is find another source that also says Jesus was the son of god, but not using the "Faith supporting" websites. That is how you start to present your case. Also, a lot of websites can be disqualifed as they are usually ".coms" and those are not normally run by well-known scientific bodies.
:-)
(Oh, one other minor item, I wasn't aware I was a guy swiftspear? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Remeber though, just because the Bible depicts known historical events with a fair degre of accuracy doesn't mean that Jesus was actually God in human form. The Illiad depicts events which we have some evidence for, but few honestly believe Achillies was divinely protected from physical harm except in his heel.
Oh, and on the whole ressurection thing, aparently Odin and Osirus (Norse and Egyptian mythology respectively) were resurrected as well. Probably many others but the point is that Jesus is hardly unique in this manner.
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> THAT'S the kind of stuff I like to see! I'll begin doing some of my own looking around now on the subject, thanks for the material <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll begin to look for more of these kinds of stories. And the sulfur is brimstone thing isn't entirely true but they are close enough so that the translators of the Bible could switch them in and out, they are basically the same thing, not scientifically the same thing.
But the balls found at Sodom were 95%+ in pure sulfur content. So it was most likely NOT brimstone which DOES contain Iron.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Didn't mean specifically you, just people pretty much like you. I have seen photos of the Bahamas. I haven't seen too many photos of Jesus lying around, ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry man I respect your beliefs and stuff but when you spout off stuff like this it just destroys your credibility. This is, to put it plainly, wrong. It's just plain false man. Ask any respected historian, skeptic, or basically ANYONE but a Christian apologetic (and even some of those will say Lincoln has more evidence, I'm sure).
You need to re-examine your faith from an unbiased viewpoint. Honestly, many of the things you say are just plain factually wrong. And I have neither the time nor the desire to go look up a ton of evidence proving each of your outrageous claims false. It's been done before, and I'm not gonna do it again. The evidence is out there, and anyone with an open mind will come to the same conclusion. You can say that the bible prophecises things all you want, that doesn't make it so. Ask any respected person besides a Christian apologetic. It just flat out is not true. You can claim inerrancy in the bible until you're blue in the face. It is NOT true. Period. There is no more debate on these subjects.
I can't stress the unbiased viewpoint enough. Anyone viewing you from the outside can clearly see that you are 888927432874927342% biased (if that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) towards religion. OPEN-MINDED. Unbiased. These are 2 of the qualities that I respect most in people.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 6 2004, 10:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 6 2004, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 01:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Didn't mean specifically you, just people pretty much like you. I have seen photos of the Bahamas. I haven't seen too many photos of Jesus lying around, ah well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry man I respect your beliefs and stuff but when you spout off stuff like this it just destroys your credibility. There is, plainly, NOT more evidence for Jesus than these people. There just is not. Ask any respected historian, skeptic, or basically ANYONE but a Christian apologetic (and even some of those will say Lincoln has more evidence, I'm sure).
You need to re-examine your faith from an unbiased viewpoint. Honestly, 99% of what you say is just plain factually wrong. And I have neither the time nor the desire to go look up a ton of evidence proving each of your outrageous claims false.
I can't stress the unbiased viewpoint enough. Anyone viewing you from the outside can clearly see that you are 888927432874927342% biased (if that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) towards religion. OPEN-MINDED. Unbiased. These are 2 of the qualities that I respect most in people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As much as I respect you and your beliefs, Nadagast, I'm not in the mood. I have, honestly examined my faith, inbetween 12-14 I really took a hard look at Christianity, at the Bible, at my God and this man named Jesus and I found nothing like it. I found nothing as based in fact.
You see the bottom line here is that the Bible is in-fact a historical document, what it says is true, I can prove it over and over. I examine my faith daily and the Holy Spirit reassures me that I am in the light, that I know what is true and what is not.
It's nothing that you're going to like hearing because there isn't any substance to it. At least, nothing that you can touch, taste or smell.
Really, the actual bottomline was laid down by God:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
- Isaiah 54:3
I can hear the atheists scream already. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's right you can't understand everything, you are not God, let God be God and you a servant to God, for he is worthy and I can prove it. Just keep the questions coming.
P.S. I'm taking a new approach on this Easter Challenge since I was getting very confused myself, I'm writing every verse from the resurrection story from each book on index cards and I'll order them chronologically in the coming days. I'll keep you updated.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As much as I respect you and your beliefs, Nadagast, I'm not in the mood. I have, honestly examined my faith, inbetween 12-14 I really took a hard look at Christianity, at the Bible, at my God and this man named Jesus and I found nothing like it. I found nothing as based in fact. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> k most people can't think very well logically between 12-14 but shrug... but I do see you say that 'nothing as based in fact'. This is exactly my point =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see the bottom line here is that the Bible is in-fact a historical document, what it says is true, I can prove it over and over. I examine my faith daily and the Holy Spirit reassures me that I am in the light, that I know what is true and what is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See here we go again. The Bible is in fact a historical document? So Noah's Ark happened? If you believe Noah's Ark you're just blind. Honestly. The Holy Spirit reassures you that you are in the light? What is that load of BS? The Holy Spirit of Atheism reassures me every day that I, too, am in the light! Statements like that mean nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's nothing that you're going to like hearing because there isn't any substance to it. At least, nothing that you can touch, taste or smell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly MY point. There is NO substance to Christian claims. There is no good reason to believe in God. This is exactly why I stopped my faith in Christianity. It's all bunk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really, the actual bottomline was laid down by God:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Quoting the bible does nothing. Since we have broken it's credibility with Noah's Ark (surely you won't argue that this is true), quoting it is meaningless. It's like this: From the book of the pink unicorn overlord:
"WHATS ALL THIS JIBBA JABBA Oh yeah God is false!"
Yes I am sad that people cannot be open-minded and they believe things without a shadow of a doubt. Especially when there are so many things to cast doubt on Christianity (assuming it had any credibility in the first place). Be open-minded. There is absolutely 0 downside. If you find your faith to be wrong, then good! You are now following the correct faith! If you find your faith correct, then good! You now can confirm even more that your beliefs are correct. There's no downside to it, unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to do this. (This goes for any belief/faith, be it religious/political/otherwise)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's right you can't understand everything, you are not God, let God be God and you a servant to God, for he is worthy and I can prove it. Just keep the questions coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well so far you've managed to blatantly ignore facts... and strum up some random bs that only Christian apologetics would count as valid. Honestly... no knock on you but I don't wish to continue this conversation unless you are openminded and provide supporting evidence for the absolutely ludicrous claims you're making.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. I'm taking a new approach on this Easter Challenge since I was getting very confused myself, I'm writing every verse from the resurrection story from each book on index cards and I'll order them chronologically in the coming days. I'll keep you updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said before, don't bother with this unless you're willing to be open minded. See some post awhile back about how disrespectful and generally idiotic it would be to OMIT AN ANGEL FROM THE BOOK OF GOD. Surely you can see the absurdity. I also have not seen a definite conclusion as to wether the stone was rolled away from the entrance or not when they got there.
The difference, Nad. Is that I'm no longer trying to convince you. I'm not trying to convince anyone, so tear through my posts, man.
If you're so open-minded then go grab a Bible and "re-open" this cold case in your life that is, "Christianity". I just got done with my "Atheist" case, I've been researching and seeing why the Bible isn't true and why the whole Jesus thing is ridiculous, I've found that Jesus smoked dope, wasn't real, was an alien, wasn't the messiah, was Moses reincarnate, was a predecessor to the Dali-Lama... pretty much everything and I found the Bible to be the most consistent explanation of who Jesus was.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've found that Jesus smoked dope, wasn't real, was an alien, wasn't the messiah, was Moses reincarnate, was a predecessor to the Dali-Lama... pretty much everything and I found the Bible to be the most consistent explanation of who Jesus was. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Going to random conspiracy theory websites has nothing to do with being skeptical... Look at the facts, not bs.
And by open-minded I mean your inherent bias towards anything biblical. The inconsistencies you explain away... when to any outsider it's clear they are inconsistent.
Again: Please, explain the situation with the rock blocking the door (this is assuming your calling the one/two angel thing an omission, which is pretty far fetched and I don't believe it, would you omit an ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO RESURRECT THE SON OF GOD FROM THE BOOK OF GOD? caps for emphasis, not yelling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Also, please explain Noah's Ark. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or how about this:
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
OOH I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE EXPLANATION OF THIS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 6 2004, 11:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 6 2004, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've found that Jesus smoked dope, wasn't real, was an alien, wasn't the messiah, was Moses reincarnate, was a predecessor to the Dali-Lama... pretty much everything and I found the Bible to be the most consistent explanation of who Jesus was. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Going to random conspiracy theory websites has nothing to do with being skeptical... Look at the facts, not bs.
And by open-minded I mean your inherent bias towards anything biblical. The inconsistencies you explain away... when to any outsider it's clear they are inconsistent.
Again: Please, explain the situation with the rock blocking the door (this is assuming your calling the one/two angel thing an omission, which is pretty far fetched and I don't believe it, would you omit an ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO RESURRECT THE SON OF GOD FROM THE BOOK OF GOD? caps for emphasis, not yelling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Also, please explain Noah's Ark. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or how about this:
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
OOH I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE EXPLANATION OF THIS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nadagast, I took you for an intelligent person and I won't think any less of you. That last contradiction was feeble at best, it's a different time and setting.
I love my computer right now, I like everything about it. (I built it by hand.)
If it were to burn up into pieces for some reason I would no longer like it, my attitude would change.
What is your argument that God can't possibly be an emotional creature? Or that one's emotions can't change?
And write for me specifically why the Story of Noah's Ark is unbelievable.
EDIT: Also, you're confusing the Bible with the Koran, the Bible isn't the book of God it's a book of the history of God and Man's interaction on this planet.
EDIT #2: And the Koran isn't the book of God because it states soemthing plainly false, "that Christians worship three Gods". Eh, wrong, sorry dismissed. You said it yourself, nad, one fault makes the whole book rubbish.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 6 2004, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 6 2004, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nadagast, I took you for an intelligent person and I won't think any less of you. That last contradiction was feeble at best, it's a different time and setting.
I love my computer right now, I like everything about it. (I built it by hand.)
If it were to burn up into pieces for some reason I would no longer like it, my attitude would change.
What is your argument that God can't possibly be an emotional creature? Or that one's emotions can't change? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uhm, God exists outside of time, and is omnimax. He is satisfied with his creation right after he makes it. Then, he is unsatisfied with his creation later BECAUSE IT DID EXACTLY WHAT HE *KNEW BEFOREHAND* IT WOULD DO (read this sentence over and over until it sinks in). Does this make any amount of sense at all? No. It's a terrible error, a huge contradiction. Not to mention, if God exists out of time (don't claim he exists in time, or it will be proven that he cannot be the creator/exist) he can't change his mind on something, because TIME is the measure of change. EG: At time x, he approves of his creation, at time y, he doesn't. It's a perfectly valid contradiction, and imo, one of the strongest/worst contradictions in the bible. Just to make this clear, what God is doing here is akin to intentionally shooting yourself in the foot, and then being **** off when it hurts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And write for me specifically why the Story of Noah's Ark is unbelievable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow, plenty of reasons. How would trees/plants survive underwater for so long? How would fresh water fish survive in salty environment, or alternatively if all this water was fresh, how would salt water fish survive? They can't just change at will. Where did all this water go to? Enough to cover Mt Everest is a TON of water. Did it all just dissapear? Not even mentioning the fact that supposedly the Ark was 450 feet long, and made of wood. In reality the longest wooden boats made were 300 feet long and supported with metal, and they still leaked. Now we get into some real ridiculous bs: How did he fit 2 of every species onto the boat? How does a species survive without huge defects coming from just 2 of their kind (only 2 of a species leads to major major inbreeding)? How would the first carnivores not manage to extinct other animals immediately? (eg the 2 lions kill 1 of 2 caribou for food, 1 caribou cannot reproduce) Not just the species, where was all the food stored? Holy crap man there are so many things wrong with the Ark story, I can go on ALL DAY. BTW none of these questions are resolvable.
This is a good example of why I don't consider you to have rationally evaluated your faith. It's perfectly 2 bazillion percent clear to anyone that the Ark story is BS. There's at least 10 MAJOR, HUGE, COLOSSAL errors in it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: Also, you're confusing the Bible with the Koran, the Bible isn't the book of God it's a book of the history of God and Man's interaction on this planet.
EDIT #2: And the Koran isn't the book of God because it states soemthing plainly false, "that Christians worship three Gods". Eh, wrong, sorry dismissed. You said it yourself, nad, one fault makes the whole book rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm, ok? I don't think I was ever arguing for the validity of the Koran <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also: I have no idea if/where it says this in the bible, but Young Earth Creationists believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Do you believe this? Do you disbelieve evolution? If you do, read up about it. It has widespread and overwhelming scientific support.
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 7 2004, 12:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 7 2004, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Ark was actually 515 feet long. So it was REALLY big. LOL
EDIT: 300 cubits a cubit is 20.6 inches, 300 x 20.6 / 12 equals = 515 feet.
And it is absurd but doesn't make me think God doesn't exist, Jesus said that all things are possible through God. Oooooh, cop-out, woopacha!!!
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're damn right it's a cop out. It's circular logic.... Again, you need to provide extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, or it just is not logical to believe them. Anyway, 515 feet isn't even near close to enough to hold every species on Earth, ignoring the other ~10 problems I posted.
What about the contradiction I posted? Is it so absurd like you said?
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 7 2004, 02:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 7 2004, 02:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 7 2004, 12:11 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 7 2004, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Ark was actually 515 feet long. So it was REALLY big. LOL
EDIT: 300 cubits a cubit is 20.6 inches, 300 x 20.6 / 12 equals = 515 feet.
And it is absurd but doesn't make me think God doesn't exist, Jesus said that all things are possible through God. Oooooh, cop-out, woopacha!!!
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're damn right it's a cop out. It's circular logic.... Again, you need to provide extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, or it just is not logical to believe them. Anyway, 515 feet isn't even near close to enough to hold every species on Earth, ignoring the other ~10 problems I posted.
What about the contradiction I posted? Is it so absurd like you said? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nah, "God reads the future he doesn't write it." He can be saddened by our lack of following him with our free will, he has created beings of free will and even though he knows what they choose, the choice saddens him or affects his emotions in some way.
Okay, but HE is to blame because he made us this way, and he still chose to make us this way, KNOWING that we would do whatever we did to **** him off. The blame lies entirely on him. He knew we would do it if he designed us X way... and he still designed us in this way. Again, it's exactly like intentionally shooting yourself in the foot then being mad when it hurts. He KNEW it would happen and he did it anyway, you don't get mad because of that. It's not logical...
Edit: Further, I will be done with this thread unless you wish to open your mind. You see a blatant impossibility in the bible, and you disregard it with the lame copout that only a believer can give. It's like you're standing on top of a building and I just destroyed the foundation, yet the building isn't falling <b>*because you don't want it to fall*</b>.
Comments
~ DarkATi
Just because people claim things, doesn't make it true. Who says the Bible isn't just a big book of interesting and extraordinary legends?
You say that millions of people can't have been deceived by Jesus - why not? They are worshipping something that doesn't exist, the only proof they have is the word of everybody else and the word of the Bible, which no one can prove is true.
I hate it when religious people call me insane or ignorant, THEY are the ones ignoring the FACTs, or lack of facts as it were... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who says George Washington was our first president? Who says Abraham Lincoln ever existed, was a President, got shot?
The Bible is not written as <b>Beowulf</b>. It is not written as fiction, it is written as a historical document, just like our Declaration of Independence is written.
Here's a nice Christian cop-out that I like alot, cop-out as it is, it's true. I haven't seen the Bahamas but I trust they exist, I don't have the funds or means to get there but I have faith that it exists.
I don't know wether or not someone poisoned my water but I drink in faith. As I said earlier, why do you think there is all this commotion about Jesus?
I've already answered that, because Satan lies and decieves. He doesn't care if someone believes in the Bahamas or believes their water is OK to drink. But he DOES very much care if you believe in Jesus or not. That's why there is so much confusion about it all.
EDIT: And by the way, I called you, decieved and your argument foolish not insane or ignorant. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't mean specifically you, just people pretty much like you. I have seen photos of the Bahamas. I haven't seen too many photos of Jesus lying around, ah well.
Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.
Who says the bible isn't written as Beowulf was? I just have your word on that.
I don't believe in Satan strangely enough, so I don't think I have been deceived by him. Millions of people have been deceived by a huge book of moral tales, they desire something to worship and something to believe in.
Theres so many other religions in the world, ALL of the major ones will be saying almost EXACTLY the same thing as you. What makes Christianity right over Buddhism? No one can PROVE EITHER of their God(s?) exist, ever existed, will ever exist. Ever. EVER.
They are asking for proof that Jesus was God's son, now if you wish to try to prove that, you have to choose a medium that isn't as hotly contested as the Bible is.
Therein lies your fault. If you wish to convince someone, and have it not be on faith, but on actual fact, you have to choose a source that isn't contested and doesn't contradict itself so much.
Again, I shall rely on the Atlantis theory.
Example: Atlantis was an island, that much is very true, there is geographical evidence there were at least 4 to 5 island in the Atlantic at the time of the supposed sinking. As to if there was an actual city, let alone a very advanced civilization on that island is what is so hotly contested. So dismissing Plato's writings as luny, and far-fetched, you have to prove some other way that there WAS a civilation on that island, and it made the Egyptians at their peak look like cavemen. Keep in mind Atlantis was supposedly flourishing around 12,000 BC or so. So untill some real evidence can be given that there was a city/people so advanced that long ago, you can not claim it isn't real.
Same goes for Jesus, with any mythology you have to be able to prove at least a few facts, so there was a man that lived long ago, or perhaps a group of men that is more likely then one person. They made a huge impact with certain moral values that have become common place, but to make it easier to read these men (read discpiles(sp)) based it on one man. Sure makes the whole Christianity relgion look better in my book, rather then basing it on a singular person who was doing things no one can. :-)
In any event, just my two cents. I do hope it helps.
They are asking for proof that Jesus was God's son, now if you wish to try to prove that, you have to choose a medium that isn't as hotly contested as the Bible is.
Therein lies your fault. If you wish to convince someone, and have it not be on faith, but on actual fact, you have to choose a source that isn't contested and doesn't contradict itself so much.
Again, I shall rely on the Atlantis theory.
Example: Atlantis was an island, that much is very true, there is geographical evidence there were at least 4 to 5 island in the Atlantic at the time of the supposed sinking. As to if there was an actual city, let alone a very advanced civilization on that island is what is so hotly contested. So dismissing Plato's writings as luny, and far-fetched, you have to prove some other way that there WAS a civilation on that island, and it made the Egyptians at their peak look like cavemen. Keep in mind Atlantis was supposedly flourishing around 12,000 BC or so. So untill some real evidence can be given that there was a city/people so advanced that long ago, you can not claim it isn't real.
Same goes for Jesus, with any mythology you have to be able to prove at least a few facts, so there was a man that lived long ago, or perhaps a group of men that is more likely then one person. They made a huge impact with certain moral values that have become common place, but to make it easier to read these men (read discpiles(sp)) based it on one man. Sure makes the whole Christianity relgion look better in my book, rather then basing it on a singular person who was doing things no one can. :-)
In any event, just my two cents. I do hope it helps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, (Man, I like this neutral guy Lanfear - until he starts giving advice to the Atheists and others. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> haha j/k )
Correct me if I'm wrong but most people in here believe that the Bible is incorrect, fiction or otherwise full of faults and therefore not worthy to be believed in.
Please correct me if that isn't the case.
So, as I understand it, if I could prove to you that the Bible was accurate then I could prove to you it was worthy of your belief and if the Bible is worthy of belief and faultless than Jesus was who he said he was and their is a heaven and a hell that individuals depart to after death, correct?
Here's some evidence.
Exhibit A
--------------------------
Sodom and Gomorrah Ruins Discovered
--------------------------
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm</a>
That Bible Plus place is interesting but most of their other finds won't impress non-believers.
I think I'll look for a really good exhibit B before I post again.
EDIT: Still working on the Easter Challenge, it is pretty tough but I haven't found a contradiction yet, just ALOT of omissions.
EDIT #2: <a href='http://vvv.com/~csnobelen/jericho.html' target='_blank'>Jericho Evidence</a>
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who says the bible isn't written as Beowulf was? I just have your word on that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the word of the many authors of the Bible. My point was it was not dclared by the authors as fiction, most of them declared the exact opposite, like John.
"And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe."
- John 19:35
PAUL'S TESTIMONEY
------------------------
Saul (later his named was changed to Paul.) persecuted Christians heavily. He was well-known and very out-spoken about his disbelief in Jesus. His conversion story.
"At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the ****. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me"
- Acts 26:13-21
These authors clearly were not writing fiction.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't believe in Satan strangely enough, so I don't think I have been deceived by him. Millions of people have been deceived by a huge book of moral tales, they desire something to worship and something to believe in.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't believe in Gravity... you know where I'm going with that. Disbelief in soemthing doesn't make it non-existen... though I ahve heard perception is your reality and I suppose that is true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Theres so many other religions in the world, ALL of the major ones will be saying almost EXACTLY the same thing as you. What makes Christianity right over Buddhism? No one can PROVE EITHER of their God(s?) exist, ever existed, will ever exist. Ever. EVER.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus is the only "religious leader" that ever rose from the dead.
Oh I hear you already, "I don't believe he did so he's just another dude."
Pash.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But could only manage it once. All I'm saying is that there is essentially no difference.
Jesus came back as Jesus, everyone knew he was Jesus, he was in the same body and was the exact same person. The "14th Dali Lama" was recognized as the 13th's "predecessor". It doesn't sound like reincarnation at all to me, it sounds more like, "we pick a new leader who is the most like the last one."
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Dhali LLama has been reincarnated some 14 times. Beating Jesus by some 13 resurections. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reincarnation and Resurrection are NOT the same thing.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? In both cases it is the same soul, its just that in the case of reincarnation that soul uses a different body. I don't see how one is any better than the other. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you said it. Jesus came back in the same body.
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But could only manage it once. All I'm saying is that there is essentially no difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
He never died a second time, hence no need to do it again.
Jesus came back as Jesus, everyone knew he was Jesus, he was in the same body and was the exact same person. The "14th Dali Lama" was recognized as the 13th's "predecessor". It doesn't sound like reincarnation at all to me, it sounds more like, "we pick a new leader who is the most like the last one."
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey hey now. we're operating under the assumption that all religions could be true. The 14th Dali Llama is believe to literally be the same person (soul wise). If thats true, than he has come back to life 13 times more than jesus. Therfore your argument that Christianity is the only religion wherin the leader came back to life is entirely false. I've seen much better arguements for why Christianity is the "one" religion.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He never died a second time, hence no need to do it again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Entirely not the point.
--------------------------
Sodom and Gomorrah Ruins Discovered
--------------------------
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
THAT'S the kind of stuff I like to see!
I'll begin doing some of my own looking around now on the subject, thanks for the material <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Secondly, yes if you can prove the bible historically accurate, without referring to any references actually IN the bible its self. I shall admit that it is truth. Keep in mind, most of the written accounts of people from that era probably isn't accurate and unless you have some magical way of traveling back in time to visit them there WILL be some assumptions that have to be made.
That being said however, there are some things we must clear up, the Bible, IS a historical document, a very well written one I might add. It is by no means a first person account of what happened then, as you can tell by the various omissions/contradictions that are present. So, what you need to do is find another source that also says Jesus was the son of god, but not using the "Faith supporting" websites. That is how you start to present your case. Also, a lot of websites can be disqualifed as they are usually ".coms" and those are not normally run by well-known scientific bodies.
:-)
(Oh, one other minor item, I wasn't aware I was a guy swiftspear? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
Oh, and on the whole ressurection thing, aparently Odin and Osirus (Norse and Egyptian mythology respectively) were resurrected as well. Probably many others but the point is that Jesus is hardly unique in this manner.
--------------------------
Sodom and Gomorrah Ruins Discovered
--------------------------
OK, so basically the Bible tells (in Genesis 19:12-25) of God destroying the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah using "fire and brimstone". Now Brimstone is more ebtter translated as sulfur or the stuff that comes from Volcanoes... I like this quote speaking of these "mysterious balls of sulfur"...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The balls themselves were composed of pressed pure powder sulfur. Checking with volcanic experts around the world confirmed that no where else in the world, even around volcanic activity, were any balls of this composition found. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.bibleplus.org/discoveries/sodomfound.htm</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THAT'S the kind of stuff I like to see!
I'll begin doing some of my own looking around now on the subject, thanks for the material <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll begin to look for more of these kinds of stories. And the sulfur is brimstone thing isn't entirely true but they are close enough so that the translators of the Bible could switch them in and out, they are basically the same thing, not scientifically the same thing.
But the balls found at Sodom were 95%+ in pure sulfur content. So it was most likely NOT brimstone which DOES contain Iron.
If any of that made sense...
~ DarkATi
See? Civil Debates are funz0rz. o.O <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry man I respect your beliefs and stuff but when you spout off stuff like this it just destroys your credibility. This is, to put it plainly, wrong. It's just plain false man. Ask any respected historian, skeptic, or basically ANYONE but a Christian apologetic (and even some of those will say Lincoln has more evidence, I'm sure).
You need to re-examine your faith from an unbiased viewpoint. Honestly, many of the things you say are just plain factually wrong. And I have neither the time nor the desire to go look up a ton of evidence proving each of your outrageous claims false. It's been done before, and I'm not gonna do it again. The evidence is out there, and anyone with an open mind will come to the same conclusion. You can say that the bible prophecises things all you want, that doesn't make it so. Ask any respected person besides a Christian apologetic. It just flat out is not true. You can claim inerrancy in the bible until you're blue in the face. It is NOT true. Period. There is no more debate on these subjects.
I can't stress the unbiased viewpoint enough. Anyone viewing you from the outside can clearly see that you are 888927432874927342% biased (if that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) towards religion. OPEN-MINDED. Unbiased. These are 2 of the qualities that I respect most in people.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Washington and Lincoln are most likely provable lol, I don't know anything about US history, but I reckon YOU'd be insane to say there wasn't proof they existed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more of a historical record for Jesus than for any of these people. The only difference is these people are relatively recent in history. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry man I respect your beliefs and stuff but when you spout off stuff like this it just destroys your credibility. There is, plainly, NOT more evidence for Jesus than these people. There just is not. Ask any respected historian, skeptic, or basically ANYONE but a Christian apologetic (and even some of those will say Lincoln has more evidence, I'm sure).
You need to re-examine your faith from an unbiased viewpoint. Honestly, 99% of what you say is just plain factually wrong. And I have neither the time nor the desire to go look up a ton of evidence proving each of your outrageous claims false.
I can't stress the unbiased viewpoint enough. Anyone viewing you from the outside can clearly see that you are 888927432874927342% biased (if that makes sense <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) towards religion. OPEN-MINDED. Unbiased. These are 2 of the qualities that I respect most in people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I respect you and your beliefs, Nadagast, I'm not in the mood. I have, honestly examined my faith, inbetween 12-14 I really took a hard look at Christianity, at the Bible, at my God and this man named Jesus and I found nothing like it. I found nothing as based in fact.
You see the bottom line here is that the Bible is in-fact a historical document, what it says is true, I can prove it over and over. I examine my faith daily and the Holy Spirit reassures me that I am in the light, that I know what is true and what is not.
It's nothing that you're going to like hearing because there isn't any substance to it. At least, nothing that you can touch, taste or smell.
Really, the actual bottomline was laid down by God:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
- Isaiah 54:3
I can hear the atheists scream already. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That's right you can't understand everything, you are not God, let God be God and you a servant to God, for he is worthy and I can prove it. Just keep the questions coming.
P.S. I'm taking a new approach on this Easter Challenge since I was getting very confused myself, I'm writing every verse from the resurrection story from each book on index cards and I'll order them chronologically in the coming days. I'll keep you updated.
~ DarkATi
k most people can't think very well logically between 12-14 but shrug... but I do see you say that 'nothing as based in fact'. This is exactly my point =\
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You see the bottom line here is that the Bible is in-fact a historical document, what it says is true, I can prove it over and over. I examine my faith daily and the Holy Spirit reassures me that I am in the light, that I know what is true and what is not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See here we go again. The Bible is in fact a historical document? So Noah's Ark happened? If you believe Noah's Ark you're just blind. Honestly.
The Holy Spirit reassures you that you are in the light? What is that load of BS? The Holy Spirit of Atheism reassures me every day that I, too, am in the light! Statements like that mean nothing.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's nothing that you're going to like hearing because there isn't any substance to it. At least, nothing that you can touch, taste or smell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly MY point. There is NO substance to Christian claims. There is no good reason to believe in God. This is exactly why I stopped my faith in Christianity. It's all bunk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really, the actual bottomline was laid down by God:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
- Isaiah 54:3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting the bible does nothing. Since we have broken it's credibility with Noah's Ark (surely you won't argue that this is true), quoting it is meaningless. It's like this:
From the book of the pink unicorn overlord:
"WHATS ALL THIS JIBBA JABBA
Oh yeah God is false!"
UberCOPTAR VERSE 92.81281
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can hear the atheists scream already. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes I am sad that people cannot be open-minded and they believe things without a shadow of a doubt. Especially when there are so many things to cast doubt on Christianity (assuming it had any credibility in the first place). Be open-minded. There is absolutely 0 downside. If you find your faith to be wrong, then good! You are now following the correct faith! If you find your faith correct, then good! You now can confirm even more that your beliefs are correct. There's no downside to it, unfortunately you seem to be unwilling to do this. (This goes for any belief/faith, be it religious/political/otherwise)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's right you can't understand everything, you are not God, let God be God and you a servant to God, for he is worthy and I can prove it. Just keep the questions coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well so far you've managed to blatantly ignore facts... and strum up some random bs that only Christian apologetics would count as valid. Honestly... no knock on you but I don't wish to continue this conversation unless you are openminded and provide supporting evidence for the absolutely ludicrous claims you're making.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->P.S. I'm taking a new approach on this Easter Challenge since I was getting very confused myself, I'm writing every verse from the resurrection story from each book on index cards and I'll order them chronologically in the coming days. I'll keep you updated.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said before, don't bother with this unless you're willing to be open minded. See some post awhile back about how disrespectful and generally idiotic it would be to OMIT AN ANGEL FROM THE BOOK OF GOD. Surely you can see the absurdity. I also have not seen a definite conclusion as to wether the stone was rolled away from the entrance or not when they got there.
If you're so open-minded then go grab a Bible and "re-open" this cold case in your life that is, "Christianity". I just got done with my "Atheist" case, I've been researching and seeing why the Bible isn't true and why the whole Jesus thing is ridiculous, I've found that Jesus smoked dope, wasn't real, was an alien, wasn't the messiah, was Moses reincarnate, was a predecessor to the Dali-Lama... pretty much everything and I found the Bible to be the most consistent explanation of who Jesus was.
~ DarkATi
Going to random conspiracy theory websites has nothing to do with being skeptical... Look at the facts, not bs.
And by open-minded I mean your inherent bias towards anything biblical. The inconsistencies you explain away... when to any outsider it's clear they are inconsistent.
Again: Please, explain the situation with the rock blocking the door (this is assuming your calling the one/two angel thing an omission, which is pretty far fetched and I don't believe it, would you omit an ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO RESURRECT THE SON OF GOD FROM THE BOOK OF GOD? caps for emphasis, not yelling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Also, please explain Noah's Ark. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or how about this:
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
OOH I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE EXPLANATION OF THIS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Going to random conspiracy theory websites has nothing to do with being skeptical... Look at the facts, not bs.
And by open-minded I mean your inherent bias towards anything biblical. The inconsistencies you explain away... when to any outsider it's clear they are inconsistent.
Again: Please, explain the situation with the rock blocking the door (this is assuming your calling the one/two angel thing an omission, which is pretty far fetched and I don't believe it, would you omit an ANGEL COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO RESURRECT THE SON OF GOD FROM THE BOOK OF GOD? caps for emphasis, not yelling <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). Also, please explain Noah's Ark. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Or how about this:
Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
OOH I CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR THE EXPLANATION OF THIS <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nadagast, I took you for an intelligent person and I won't think any less of you. That last contradiction was feeble at best, it's a different time and setting.
I love my computer right now, I like everything about it. (I built it by hand.)
If it were to burn up into pieces for some reason I would no longer like it, my attitude would change.
What is your argument that God can't possibly be an emotional creature? Or that one's emotions can't change?
And write for me specifically why the Story of Noah's Ark is unbelievable.
EDIT: Also, you're confusing the Bible with the Koran, the Bible isn't the book of God it's a book of the history of God and Man's interaction on this planet.
EDIT #2: And the Koran isn't the book of God because it states soemthing plainly false, "that Christians worship three Gods". Eh, wrong, sorry dismissed. You said it yourself, nad, one fault makes the whole book rubbish.
~ DarkATi
I love my computer right now, I like everything about it. (I built it by hand.)
If it were to burn up into pieces for some reason I would no longer like it, my attitude would change.
What is your argument that God can't possibly be an emotional creature? Or that one's emotions can't change? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm, God exists outside of time, and is omnimax. He is satisfied with his creation right after he makes it. Then, he is unsatisfied with his creation later BECAUSE IT DID EXACTLY WHAT HE *KNEW BEFOREHAND* IT WOULD DO (read this sentence over and over until it sinks in). Does this make any amount of sense at all? No. It's a terrible error, a huge contradiction. Not to mention, if God exists out of time (don't claim he exists in time, or it will be proven that he cannot be the creator/exist) he can't change his mind on something, because TIME is the measure of change. EG: At time x, he approves of his creation, at time y, he doesn't. It's a perfectly valid contradiction, and imo, one of the strongest/worst contradictions in the bible. Just to make this clear, what God is doing here is akin to intentionally shooting yourself in the foot, and then being **** off when it hurts.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And write for me specifically why the Story of Noah's Ark is unbelievable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh wow, plenty of reasons. How would trees/plants survive underwater for so long? How would fresh water fish survive in salty environment, or alternatively if all this water was fresh, how would salt water fish survive? They can't just change at will. Where did all this water go to? Enough to cover Mt Everest is a TON of water. Did it all just dissapear? Not even mentioning the fact that supposedly the Ark was 450 feet long, and made of wood. In reality the longest wooden boats made were 300 feet long and supported with metal, and they still leaked. Now we get into some real ridiculous bs: How did he fit 2 of every species onto the boat? How does a species survive without huge defects coming from just 2 of their kind (only 2 of a species leads to major major inbreeding)? How would the first carnivores not manage to extinct other animals immediately? (eg the 2 lions kill 1 of 2 caribou for food, 1 caribou cannot reproduce) Not just the species, where was all the food stored? Holy crap man there are so many things wrong with the Ark story, I can go on ALL DAY. BTW none of these questions are resolvable.
This is a good example of why I don't consider you to have rationally evaluated your faith. It's perfectly 2 bazillion percent clear to anyone that the Ark story is BS. There's at least 10 MAJOR, HUGE, COLOSSAL errors in it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->EDIT: Also, you're confusing the Bible with the Koran, the Bible isn't the book of God it's a book of the history of God and Man's interaction on this planet.
EDIT #2: And the Koran isn't the book of God because it states soemthing plainly false, "that Christians worship three Gods". Eh, wrong, sorry dismissed. You said it yourself, nad, one fault makes the whole book rubbish.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhm, ok? I don't think I was ever arguing for the validity of the Koran <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also: I have no idea if/where it says this in the bible, but Young Earth Creationists believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Do you believe this? Do you disbelieve evolution? If you do, read up about it. It has widespread and overwhelming scientific support.
EDIT: 300 cubits a cubit is 20.6 inches, 300 x 20.6 / 12 equals = 515 feet.
And it is absurd but doesn't make me think God doesn't exist, Jesus said that all things are possible through God. Oooooh, cop-out, woopacha!!!
~ DarkATi
EDIT: 300 cubits a cubit is 20.6 inches, 300 x 20.6 / 12 equals = 515 feet.
And it is absurd but doesn't make me think God doesn't exist, Jesus said that all things are possible through God. Oooooh, cop-out, woopacha!!!
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're damn right it's a cop out. It's circular logic.... Again, you need to provide extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, or it just is not logical to believe them. Anyway, 515 feet isn't even near close to enough to hold every species on Earth, ignoring the other ~10 problems I posted.
What about the contradiction I posted? Is it so absurd like you said?
EDIT: 300 cubits a cubit is 20.6 inches, 300 x 20.6 / 12 equals = 515 feet.
And it is absurd but doesn't make me think God doesn't exist, Jesus said that all things are possible through God. Oooooh, cop-out, woopacha!!!
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're damn right it's a cop out. It's circular logic.... Again, you need to provide extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, or it just is not logical to believe them. Anyway, 515 feet isn't even near close to enough to hold every species on Earth, ignoring the other ~10 problems I posted.
What about the contradiction I posted? Is it so absurd like you said? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, "God reads the future he doesn't write it." He can be saddened by our lack of following him with our free will, he has created beings of free will and even though he knows what they choose, the choice saddens him or affects his emotions in some way.
~ DarkATi
Edit: Further, I will be done with this thread unless you wish to open your mind. You see a blatant impossibility in the bible, and you disregard it with the lame copout that only a believer can give. It's like you're standing on top of a building and I just destroyed the foundation, yet the building isn't falling <b>*because you don't want it to fall*</b>.