Who Was Jesus?

Swiftspear · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Since nobody has answered this (at least that I've seen):

Why is Christianity right when all the other religions are wrong? What seperates Christianity from any of the other 5000+ religions in the world? PLEASE don't say popularity or the bible. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

I want real evidence.

Oh and a question:
If God is all powerful/omnimax/omnipotent why doesn't he just destroy Satan?

This isn't meant as a knock on religion, I really wanna find out <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true.

I don't think satan is the sourse of sin, he is just an agent of it... I really don't know, because it isn't an issue I really care about, to me the concept of satan doesn't even seem nessicary.

Marine0I · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh really? Doesn't god forbid homosexual love? He certainly forbids the expression of it. So I guess that "intrisic good" can't be unlimited can it? Also, evidentally, peace exists in very limited quantities and always has. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Love between men is only encouraged in the Bible, its got plenty of verses talking about love for all mankind. But sex and lust between men is not love. You want to really really like someone - even a man? Awesome. You want to have sex with said person - hell no. When I said unlimited quantities, I meant "if it was unlimited then it would still be awesome" - I'm not crazy enough to think this world is full of peace <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Freedom needs to be limited, only ever so slightly, to avoid the vast majority of freedoms being forcefully taken away. If everyone was allowed to kill people who didn't want to be killed, then those being killed are having the vast majority of their freedoms stripped from them. It is all about maximizing freedom. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, I guess its a definition problem then - because part of my definition for anything intrinsically good is that it must be good in whatever quantities it arrives in, you must be able to follow it to its absolute conclusion and still think its good. Thats why I consider war necessary, not intrinsically good.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Freedom is the most valuable thing I can think of, because without it I only exist for someone elses purposes. To wash their dishes, to mop their floor, whatever. And my own desires are completely meaningless, sacrificed for the desires of someone else. I just don't see any point in living if you can't at least have some hope of fullfilling your desires.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

And what if you dont need your freedom to fufil your wishes? Would you trade a meaningful future/eternity just to fufill your desires right now? It seems to me that you would trade anything, even enjoyment and happiness, on priniciple just for freedom - a freedom that will be gone one day anyway, thanks to death.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>At that point the child may as well kill itself, it has nothing to look forward to except continued servatude. But that begs the question, why doesn't God allow us to "grow up"? Hes god, so he could if he wanted to right? Is he afraid of something?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well the last guy who tried to "grow up" got himself hurled out of heaven - I guess God doesnt take too kindly to those who think they can exist without him. Perhaps the ingratitude annoys him, all these things exist soley because he created them.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sure he could. All he has to do is offer me something besides eternal servitude or guarenteed eternal suffering. What this would be I don't know, I'm not God. The least he could offer me is non-existance I suppose, but no, its slavery or suffering.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why should he do that? Not only did you reject him, but you also chose to oppose him. So not only does he owe you nothing, but you owe him, and you oppose him - why should he give you what you want ie eternal nothingness? He definately cant give you anything Good unless you are near him, and hell is complete separation from him - he gave you what you wanted. From what you've said, it sounds like you are willing to sacrifice all these things in the name of freedom, and you'll certainly get your opportunity.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If that is the case then I grant you the title "Slave Marine01", and you should accept it gladly. Hell, why not prove your loyalty by branding youself with an "I'm God's ****" iron?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

FTW. I prefer the title Servant, given that I could leave if I wished - but I'm not ashamed to admit total inferiority to a supreme being. Nor is the relationship entirely 1 way as it is in slavery as we understand it - but I live to carry out his will. Unfortunately I'm a kinda sucky servant, but I've got time to improve. Why no branding? I'm a wuss <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /> + God requires a life commitment, not mere ritualism and symbolism. Wearing a JC pwns t-shirt doesnt make you a Christian - you can do it if you want, but it doesnt mean much.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seriously, why does this give you meaning? Because you concede that your only value is to be a pawn for some "greater" (and I use the term loosely here) being? And your reward for being a pawn is getting to be a pawn for all eternity?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To be loved, useful and important to a supreme being kinda does make one feel special. And yes, I concede absolutely that my only value is to be a "pawn" for God. Everything else I'm going to lose come death. Because I believe God is Good, then my days as a "pawn" are golden - and life after death means the good times never end. Because you think God is evil (if he exists at all), then you consider these times bad times, refuse to serve this evil God, and consider continued service after death to add insult to injury. I dont think we're going to see eye to eye here.

SkulkBait · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 31 2004, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Oh really? Doesn't god forbid homosexual love? He certainly forbids the expression of it. So I guess that "intrisic good" can't be unlimited can it? Also, evidentally, peace exists in very limited quantities and always has. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Love between men is only encouraged in the Bible, its got plenty of verses talking about love for all mankind. But sex and lust between men is not love. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Why not? It is love when it is between a man and a woman, but not between two men or two women? That doesn't make any sense. I certainly disagree with God on this point.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You want to really really like someone - even a man? Awesome. You want to have sex with said person - hell no. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Why not? Is God homophobic? Seriously, how is two men having sex any business of his?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
When I said unlimited quantities, I meant "if it was unlimited then it would still be awesome" - I'm not crazy enough to think this world is full of peace <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I suppose your right in that regard. But I'd still take freedom over peace and love anyday.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Freedom needs to be limited, only ever so slightly, to avoid the vast majority of freedoms being forcefully taken away. If everyone was allowed to kill people who didn't want to be killed, then those being killed are having the vast majority of their freedoms stripped from them. It is all about maximizing freedom. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well, I guess its a definition problem then - because part of my definition for anything intrinsically good is that it must be good in whatever quantities it arrives in, you must be able to follow it to its absolute conclusion and still think its good. Thats why I consider war necessary, not intrinsically good.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I suppose thats where we disagree then. I don't think it is nesseary that "good" things remain good even in unlimited quanities. For instance Mr. Goodbar (the second best thing ever) is really friggen awesome, but if I eat too much of it it will do really bad things to me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Freedom is the most valuable thing I can think of, because without it I only exist for someone elses purposes. To wash their dishes, to mop their floor, whatever. And my own desires are completely meaningless, sacrificed for the desires of someone else. I just don't see any point in living if you can't at least have some hope of fullfilling your desires.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

And what if you dont need your freedom to fufil your wishes? Would you trade a meaningful future/eternity just to fufill your desires right now? It seems to me that you would trade anything, even enjoyment and happiness, on priniciple just for freedom - a freedom that will be gone one day anyway, thanks to death.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
If you don't need freedom to fullfil your wishes than by all means be a slave. What you seem to be failing to comprehend is that I dissagre with God on so many concepts, that I can't consider him to be "right" or "good", so I could never "enjoy" serving him. Its as rediculous as saying that you could enjoy being satan's love slave.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>At that point the child may as well kill itself, it has nothing to look forward to except continued servatude. But that begs the question, why doesn't God allow us to "grow up"? Hes god, so he could if he wanted to right? Is he afraid of something?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well the last guy who tried to "grow up" got himself hurled out of heaven - I guess God doesnt take too kindly to those who think they can exist without him. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Thats why I consider satan to be the hero figure of the bible. I mean, anybody with the balls to stare God in the face and tell him hes a sunnofa**** has earned my respect.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Perhaps the ingratitude annoys him, all these things exist soley because he created them.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Including me, and I don't recall asking to be created. Why should I be greatefull for my miserable existance. God can suck it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sure he could. All he has to do is offer me something besides eternal servitude or guarenteed eternal suffering. What this would be I don't know, I'm not God. The least he could offer me is non-existance I suppose, but no, its slavery or suffering.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Why should he do that? Not only did you reject him, but you also chose to oppose him. So not only does he owe you nothing, but you owe him, and you oppose him - why should he give you what you want ie eternal nothingness? He definately cant give you anything Good unless you are near him, and hell is complete separation from him - he gave you what you wanted. From what you've said, it sounds like you are willing to sacrifice all these things in the name of freedom, and you'll certainly get your opportunity.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
He owes me that option because he created me against my will. I had no choice in the matter, he just waved his hand and *poof*, theres skulkbait "now remember skulkbait, you owe me your eternal servitude". **** him. And as I've said before I'm perfectly OK with going to hell, since it is infinatly better than the other option. Besides, all the cool people are in hell.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seriously, why does this give you meaning? Because you concede that your only value is to be a pawn for some "greater" (and I use the term loosely here) being? And your reward for being a pawn is getting to be a pawn for all eternity?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

To be loved, useful and important to a supreme being kinda does make one feel special. And yes, I concede absolutely that my only value is to be a "pawn" for God. Everything else I'm going to lose come death. Because I believe God is Good, then my days as a "pawn" are golden - and life after death means the good times never end. Because you think God is evil (if he exists at all), then you consider these times bad times, refuse to serve this evil God, and consider continued service after death to add insult to injury. I dont think we're going to see eye to eye here.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Most definatly not.

EDIT: forgot this one:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>FTW. I prefer the title Servant, given that I could leave if I wished </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You can't leave, your only other option is eternal torture. Slaves throughout history have had this option (or something similar), but we don't call them servents.

mirrodin · October 2004

I'm an atheist.

I just read your 'New Testament', it sucks. I'm sorry, but it is not very entertaining, I could write a better fantasy story than Matt and Brock and the other Apostles combined. It is boring and repetitive.

According to the New Testament, Jesus was a Jew, being born around that area I think it's a safe guess to say he was white. He acts unrealisticly, talked to himself (schziophernia, sp?) and believed he was the Son of God (Delusions of gradeur). He needed lots of psychiatric care, which would of been unavailable at the time.

Due to the suffering of the people (hardships and such), following this man seemed like a better alternative, and living a good life in "heaven" beat the life they lived on earth. And LSD, lots of LSD...

Nadagast · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want real evidence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time.

Which goes to the original subject of the thread. In all likelyhood he was merely just another guy claiming to be a prophet or savior. A historical Jesus probably existed but he probably wasn't very popular.

mirrodin · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 31 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want real evidence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
You can't convict a person for murder with only a witness and you can't turn an atheist into a believer with just words. I demand material proof.

Marine0I · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not? It is love when it is between a man and a woman, but not between two men or two women? That doesn't make any sense. I certainly disagree with God on this point.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You can still love both men and women. The more you do, the better it is. Sex, however, is separated from love. It is between you and your wife, to give you something special in that relationship, other than just the fellowship you enjoy with other humans. Sex is not love - its an expression of it, but only in a certain circumstance. Thats why I dont think sex is intrinsically good. Homosexuality doesnt mean "man lover" - it means "sexually attracted to men".

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not? Is God homophobic? Seriously, how is two men having sex any business of his?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God created everyone, and set the rules for them. If something you own does the wrong thing, then it is certainly your business. Doubly so if you are the ultimate vehicle of justice. God set the rules for sex, homosexuals chose to defy God's rules, just like anyone does when they lie, cheat, steal, and listen to heavy meta.... wait no <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> (I listen to that stuff). These people are flaunting his laws - he has every right to insist they dont.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I suppose your right in that regard. But I'd still take freedom over peace and love anyday. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Give me teh peace and love baby!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I suppose thats where we disagree then. I don't think it is nesseary that "good" things remain good even in unlimited quanities. For instance Mr. Goodbar (the second best thing ever) is really friggen awesome, but if I eat too much of it it will do really bad things to me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I've never tried Mr Goodbar, and Im sure he rawks hard, but I'd never go so far as to call him instrinsically good - despite his name <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you don't need freedom to fullfil your wishes than by all means be a slave. What you seem to be failing to comprehend is that I dissagre with God on so many concepts, that I can't consider him to be "right" or "good", so I could never "enjoy" serving him. Its as rediculous as saying that you could enjoy being satan's love slave.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yup - I do comprehend, thats why I say further down that you think God is evil.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thats why I consider satan to be the hero figure of the bible. I mean, anybody with the balls to stare God in the face and tell him hes a sunnofa****? has earned my respect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Criminals swear at judges and attack police, Hitler attacked Russia while taking on the rest of the Western world - many people in this world, including evil people, have large testicles. I may admire their courage, perhaps even respect their courage, but nothing further than that.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Including me, and I don't recall asking to be created. Why should I be greatefull for my miserable existance. God can suck it.

He owes me that option because he created me against my will. I had no choice in the matter, he just waved his hand and *poof*, theres skulkbait "now remember skulkbait, you owe me your eternal servitude". **** him. And as I've said before I'm perfectly OK with going to hell, since it is infinatly better than the other option. Besides, all the cool people are in hell.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He didnt create you against your will. You didnt have a will until he created you. He also gave you that will. He gave you absolutely everything you own. He did everything for you, and asked for your service in return, and you rejected him. And he let you. But you're also angry that he's going to separate you from everything good when he separates himself from you - but that is outside of his control. So instead you demand non-existance - I dont know why he wouldnt give you that... hrrmmm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can't leave, your only other option is eternal torture. Slaves throughout history have had this option (or something similar), but we don't call them servents.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
With those slaves, the masters had a choice whether to inflict punishment on them or not - God doesnt. He will merely provide you with your freedom and everything that entails. You want away from God, then you wont truely be free until you are rid of everything God related, including good.

"I've had enough, I'm leaving this stupid house"

"You sure you want to go? I cant control what happens to you if you leave, nor can I help you. All the things you enjoy from me like food, water, shelter will be gone"

"Damn you, you've enslaved me, forcing me to choose between serving you and a miserable existance out there."

"I'm sorry, I wont force your decision, but those are your options. It's impossible for me to change what being away from me is like."

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time.

Which goes to the original subject of the thread. In all likelyhood he was merely just another guy claiming to be a prophet or savior. A historical Jesus probably existed but he probably wasn't very popular. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well here is a challenge for you. Tell me how you would go about proving he was resurrected, if indeed it was true. What could you do, 2000 years ago, to prove to future generations that he was resurrected? Paul had a method when challenged to prove Jesus rose again "There are plenty of people alive today who witnessed it - go ask them!". But that wont hold for people in the future, all those guys are dead. Written testimony? Just claim the authors are lying.

If you were there at that time, if you saw it with your own eyes - it would still be impossible for you to provide proof of the authenticity of the event. You ask for something you know couldnt exist even if the event was historically true, and then take the lack of an answer as proof it was false....

As for Jesus being popular - damn straight. You dont get popular by showing up at the synagouge and telling the most powerful people of the day they are corrupt, evil and damned. Nor do you score points for destroying their money making operations and claiming to have divine authority. The best demonstration of his extreme unpopularity was when Pontias Pilot tried to save him by offering the people a choice "Barabas the vicious murderer - or Jesus, whose gonna get nailed?" No prizes for guess who won that popularity contest.

SkulkBait · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 31 2004, 02:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not? It is love when it is between a man and a woman, but not between two men or two women? That doesn't make any sense. I certainly disagree with God on this point.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You can still love both men and women. The more you do, the better it is. Sex, however, is separated from love. It is between you and your wife, to give you something special in that relationship, other than just the fellowship you enjoy with other humans. Sex is not love - its an expression of it, but only in a certain circumstance. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
So sex is an expression of love, but only if it is between a straight man and a straight woman? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thats why I dont think sex is intrinsically good. Homosexuality doesnt mean "man lover" - it means "sexually attracted to men".</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No it doesn't, it means "sexually attracted to members of the same sex", just like heterosexual means "sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex". Both definitions only have to do with sex, but often men love other men (in the romantic/sexual way), just like men and women love eachother (in the romantic/sexual way). I see no reason why one can be considered an expression of love and the other not.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why not? Is God homophobic? Seriously, how is two men having sex any business of his?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God created everyone, and set the rules for them. If something you own does the wrong thing, then it is certainly your business.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Therin lies the problem. I don't believe God owns me, I don't believe anyone owns me. I find the idea repulsive. The civilized world did away with slavery a long time ago yet God continues to make it a staple of his relationship with humans.

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Doubly so if you are the ultimate vehicle of justice. God set the rules for sex, homosexuals chose to defy God's rules, just like anyone does when they lie, cheat, steal, and listen to heavy meta.... wait no <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> (I listen to that stuff). These people are flaunting his laws - he has every right to insist they dont.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
And they have every right to tell the bastard to **** off because his "morals" don't make any freaking sense. He doesn't give any reasons for his moreals, they just are, which only makes sense if they somehow threaten him... but he is supposedly the most powerfull being in existance, how can he be threatened?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I suppose thats where we disagree then. I don't think it is nesseary that "good" things remain good even in unlimited quanities. For instance Mr. Goodbar (the second best thing ever) is really friggen awesome, but if I eat too much of it it will do really bad things to me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I've never tried Mr Goodbar, and Im sure he rawks hard, but I'd never go so far as to call him instrinsically good - despite his name <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You cannot deny the goodness, it is written right there on the package. It is an indisputable holy text that has remained unchanged for nearly 80 years. This lends much to its credability.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you don't need freedom to fullfil your wishes than by all means be a slave. What you seem to be failing to comprehend is that I dissagre with God on so many concepts, that I can't consider him to be "right" or "good", so I could never "enjoy" serving him. Its as rediculous as saying that you could enjoy being satan's love slave.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Yup - I do comprehend, thats why I say further down that you think God is evil.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
And you were partially right, I don't think "evil" has the concrete meaning that religious people think it does, but I do think that Gods definitions of "good" and "bad" suck, and his actions are dispicable.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thats why I consider satan to be the hero figure of the bible. I mean, anybody with the balls to stare God in the face and tell him hes a sunnofa**** has earned my respect.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Criminals swear at judges and attack police, Hitler attacked Russia while taking on the rest of the Western world - many people in this world, including evil people, have large testicles. I may admire their courage, perhaps even respect their courage, but nothing further than that.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

The difference is that satan was right. At least as far as I'm concerned. Plus, he stood up to the (supposedly) most powerful being in the entirety of... everything. That is no ordinary display of testicular fortitude.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Including me, and I don't recall asking to be created. Why should I be greatefull for my miserable existance. God can suck it.

He owes me that option because he created me against my will. I had no choice in the matter, he just waved his hand and *poof*, theres skulkbait "now remember skulkbait, you owe me your eternal servitude". **** him. And as I've said before I'm perfectly OK with going to hell, since it is infinatly better than the other option. Besides, all the cool people are in hell.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He didnt create you against your will. You didnt have a will until he created you.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
But he never gives me the option of being un-created now does he? To me that is as good as creating me without my concent.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
He also gave you that will. He gave you absolutely everything you own. He did everything for you, and asked for your service in return, and you rejected him.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because I never asked for the things he gave me, because he expects me to be greatful that he forced me into existance and threw me on this miserable little planet full of psychos. If he wants my gratitude hes going to have to do better than that.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
And he let you. But you're also angry that he's going to separate you from everything good when he separates himself from you - but that is outside of his control. So instead you demand non-existance - I dont know why he wouldnt give you that... hrrmmm</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because that would make the choice too easy. Face it, he wants me to suffer for rejecting him, vengefull emotions, anger, jelousy, he is just as flawed as his creations, no matter how much he tries to deny it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You can't leave, your only other option is eternal torture. Slaves throughout history have had this option (or something similar), but we don't call them servents.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
With those slaves, the masters had a choice whether to inflict punishment on them or not - God doesnt. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yes he does, he could easily offer me non-existance, but he doesn't because hes a sadist.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
He will merely provide you with your freedom and everything that entails. You want away from God, then you wont truely be free until you are rid of everything God related, including good.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Which doesn't make much sense because as far as I am concerned God isn't all that "good" himself.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
"I've had enough, I'm leaving this stupid house"

"You sure you want to go? I cant control what happens to you if you leave, nor can I help you. All the things you enjoy from me like food, water, shelter will be gone"

"Damn you, you've enslaved me, forcing me to choose between serving you and a miserable existance out there."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
As I've said before, it isn't the lack of options that make you a slave, only the option where you choose to serve God forever. My choosing hell is the equivelent of a slave choosing death rather than continued servitude. Its a sucky option, but choosing to be a slave sucks much worse. "I can't control what happens to you if you leave"? This is a being that can supposedly do <i>anything</i>, surely he has the power to offer more than two crummy options?

Swiftspear · October 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mirrodin @ Oct 31 2004, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 31 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want real evidence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You can't convict a person for murder with only a witness and you can't turn an atheist into a believer with just words. I demand material proof.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The tomb was found empty according to roman documentation, there were several, and by several I mean crowds and crowds, of recorded whitnesses... And not only that, but several of those whitnesses died (read were exicuted) because they refused to recind thier statements that they saw him alive. It all comes down to how reliable you belive the new testimate to be, if you belive it to be reliable, which is not an increadibly preposterous claim with all the supporting evidence and historical analisis we have done to it, then it is hard to not belive that Jesus Christ did indeed die and rize again. If there was a trial in that period, using the methods we use in todays courts, and the new testimate events really happened the way it says they did, then it would DEFINTALY be found that he did rize from the dead.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 31 2004, 02:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mirrodin @ Oct 31 2004, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 31 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want real evidence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You can't convict a person for murder with only a witness and you can't turn an atheist into a believer with just words. I demand material proof. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The tomb was found empty according to roman documentation, there were several, and by several I mean crowds and crowds, of recorded whitnesses... And not only that, but several of those whitnesses died (read were exicuted) because they refused to recind thier statements that they saw him alive. It all comes down to how reliable you belive the new testimate to be, if you belive it to be reliable, which is not an increadibly preposterous claim with all the supporting evidence and historical analisis we have done to it, then it is hard to not belive that Jesus Christ did indeed die and rize again. If there was a trial in that period, using the methods we use in todays courts, and the new testimate events really happened the way it says they did, then it would DEFINTALY be found that he did rize from the dead. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Do you really wanna get into this? You know that the accounts of his resurrection contradict each other right? I can dig up more later if you want, but this isn't good evidence for god at all.

Besides, quoting someone whose name I can't remember atm, "miraculous claims require miraculous proof" or maybe it was extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Bah, you get the point <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
There is no miraculous proof for Jesus' resurrection.

Pepe_Muffassa · November 2004

Well, I just want to let everyone know how impressed I am at this thread. Marine, good to see you back. It is great to see you and Skulkbait go at it - yet not descend into a flame war.

Nadagast, I totally understand why you dis-believe a resurrection story. After all, people don't come back to life every day. Experience teaches us that when someone dies, they stay dead.

The problem is that there were lots of witnesses. There are lots of records. Heck, a compilation of writers all talk about it, conveniently wrapped up in the Bible. So now, we have eye witnesses to the event.

Your only course of action then, is to attempt a discredit of the Bible. Thats fine, go right ahead. People have been doing that for centuries unsuccessfully. Besides, you will believe what you want to believe - not what anyone here tells you to. If you want to believe that Jesus is full of crap and a huge con artist, go right ahead.

The problem I have is that people try to blame God because of the consequences of the choices that they make. You made the choice, you deal with the consequence. I don't care if you don't like the options, God (for all I know) doesn't care if you don't like the options. You have all the information to make a valid choice. Every one reading this thread can go get a Bible and evaluate it for themselves. You can choose to read it, or not. You can choose to believe, or not. You can choose to make fun of believers, belief in general, God, heaven, Jesus - whatever - that is totally your decision.

Just don't talk about God being "unjust" or "unfiar" or "unloving" because it doesn't fit your definition of those terms. This is "God" - and as "God" he is not bound to your set of ideals. On the contrary, we are bound to his ideals. If we choose to live outside those bounds, we have no room to complain.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe_Muffassa @ Nov 1 2004, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nadagast, I totally understand why you dis-believe a resurrection story. After all, people don't come back to life every day. Experience teaches us that when someone dies, they stay dead. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Right.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem is that there were lots of witnesses. There are lots of records. Heck, a compilation of writers all talk about it, conveniently wrapped up in the Bible. So now, we have eye witnesses to the event.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Do I need to say it again? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence/proof. Contradictory eyewitness accounts from biased (Gospels are slightly biased don't you think?) individuals are nowhere even close to extraordinary proof. It isn't even considered normal 'proof'. It's just garbage.

Supposing the fact that Jesus' body somehow did leave his tomb, there are plenty of other explanations other than God.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Your only course of action then, is to attempt a discredit of the Bible. Thats fine, go right ahead. People have been doing that for centuries unsuccessfully.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Uhm what? People have been discreditting the bible 'unsuccessfully'? Are you kidding? There are so many inaccuracies, contradictions, and scientific errors in the bible it's astounding. Really. Don't try to claim inerrancy of the Bible...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Besides, you will believe what you want to believe - not what anyone here tells you to. If you want to believe that Jesus is full of crap and a huge con artist, go right ahead.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

No I will believe what the evidence leads me to believe. I used to be a Christian (not unlike yourself I suspect), but I'm now a firm atheist, because all the facts I find are pointing towards it. Lightning is "god's wrath"? Please. God is just a mysterious being that people can use to explain things that science hasn't yet. It's bunk.

You're right on one part. We shouldn't be blaming God for our action's repurcussions. He doesn't exist. We should blame ourselves.

Marine0I · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So sex is an expression of love, but only if it is between a straight man and a straight woman? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Its not the expression of love that makes it good. You can "express" your love for an animal in a sexual way, and thats twisted and wrong. Its either that or its just for purely physical pleasure - and I believe that to be wrong also. That's just part of the nature of sex - it can be used in multiple situations with different things to express love. It is defined by this not so popular God as bad when it happens outside of a married relationship. He also then went on to define marriage as between a man and a woman.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No it doesn't, it means "sexually attracted to members of the same sex", just like heterosexual means "sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex". Both definitions only have to do with sex, but often men love other men (in the romantic/sexual way), just like men and women love eachother (in the romantic/sexual way). I see no reason why one can be considered an expression of love and the other not.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Okay you win the semantics <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />. That is exactly its real definition. Both can be expressions of love, only one can be considered good. As far as I'm concerned, God gets to make that call.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Therin lies the problem. I don't believe God owns me, I don't believe anyone owns me. I find the idea repulsive. The civilized world did away with slavery a long time ago yet God continues to make it a staple of his relationship with humans.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Slavery and designations of inferiority go hand in hand. That's why we feel completely comfortable "enslaving" puppies for our spaw.... kids. We are superior to dogs and cats, so we make slaves out of them - we decide if they live or die, we make all their decisions for them. I'm vastly inferior to a supreme being such as God, so I'm not ashamed to serve (I say serve as though I actually do, when I really dont because I am fool, but were I a decent Christian I would). The enslaving of negro's was wrong because they were people, no better or worse than ourselves, and we forcibly took them from their homes and bent them to our will.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And they have every right to tell the bastard to **** off because his "morals" don't make any freaking sense. He doesn't give any reasons for his moreals, they just are, which only makes sense if they somehow threaten him... but he is supposedly the most powerfull being in existance, how can he be threatened?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He's not threatened, he even talks about laughing when people plan to do away with him. Is your father threatened when he insists you wear a helmet on your bike? When he insists you dont put that fork in the socket? No, he knows whats best for you, he cares about what happens to you, so he makes these laws, backed up by the mainstay of parents everywhere when their children are too young to understand - <b>because I said so![</b>. You may not understand all of them - I'm pretty sure I get the gist of most, but if anyone was going to make the right rules for me, why not my creator?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You cannot deny the goodness, it is written right there on the package. It is an indisputable holy text that has remained unchanged for nearly 80 years. This lends much to its credability.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ah, but how do you explain the impact that Mr. Goodbar has had on children everywhere for as long as he has existed. Stomach aches, vomiting, hyperactive behaviour, "big bones" syndrome - surely these point to an insidious and dangerous culture of glutto... pure evil. The isolated nature of these incidents, the complete misuse of Mr. Goodbar in this circumstance and the fact that thousands of his devotees find him to enrich their life without any adverse consequences notwithstanding - this surely goes to prove that Mr. Goodbar should be stamped out of the modern society/diet.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The difference is that satan was right. At least as far as I'm concerned. Plus, he stood up to the (supposedly) most powerful being in the entirety of... everything. That is no ordinary display of testicular fortitude.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well I dont think he was right - and regardless he lost. And he wasnt terribly happy about losing, especially given that he now knew his future. Apparently, he is trying to take some people down with him to a place with a pretty bad reputation... I just cant back satan based around morality when I believe that God defines it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But he never gives me the option of being un-created now does he? To me that is as good as creating me without my concent.

Because I never asked for the things he gave me, because he expects me to be greatful that he forced me into existance and threw me on this miserable little planet full of psychos. If he wants my gratitude hes going to have to do better than that.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I certainly dont see it as good as being created without consent. I'd have to support suicide if I believed that, because I was born without my consent, so it should follow that I'd naturally be justified in offing myself.

You probably have your health, a job in a first world country, friends, family - I think you've got a lot to be grateful for, far more than most of this world anyway.....

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because that would make the choice too easy. Face it, he wants me to suffer for rejecting him, vengefull emotions, anger, jelousy, he is just as flawed as his creations, no matter how much he tries to deny it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well he actually makes several claims that would fit with your idea "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" etc.... I think this comes back to "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". God has no sin, and has collected rocks. Jealousy is not wrong when another man is sleeping with your wife.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes he does, he could easily offer me non-existance, but he doesn't because hes a sadist.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, he isnt adverse to tough justice.... you might be right, not in that he's a sadist, but that he isnt offering you non-existance because his penchant for justice wouldnt let you get away with it - not unlike a jailer putting a childmolester in a cell without his pants and belt, cause he aint getting out of it that easy.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"I can't control what happens to you if you leave"? This is a being that can supposedly do <i>anything</i>, surely he has the power to offer more than two crummy options?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God is limited in several regards. He cant sin, he cant lie - the omnipotence most people think he has doesnt exist. He cannot deny his own nature, and that nature is one of justice, which may explain why he didnt just say "your all forgiven kids", instead of sending down Jesus and making him pay for us. One of those options is not crummy.... but you'll never believe me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marine, good to see you back. It is great to see you and Skulkbait go at it - yet not descend into a flame war. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Oh there is still time - Goodbar fanatics never take too kindly to logic, reasoning and science stripping away their delusions.

Nagadast - you probably missed this:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well here is a challenge for you. Tell me how you would go about proving he was resurrected, if indeed it was true. What could you do, 2000 years ago, to prove to future generations that he was resurrected? Paul had a method when challenged to prove Jesus rose again "There are plenty of people alive today who witnessed it - go ask them!". But that wont hold for people in the future, all those guys are dead. Written testimony? Just claim the authors are lying.

If you were there at that time, if you saw it with your own eyes - it would still be impossible for you to provide proof of the authenticity of the event. You ask for something you know couldnt exist even if the event was historically true, and then take the lack of an answer as proof it was false....</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You have defined yourself out of ever possibly believing in Jesus existance. You are determined, like Descarte, to doubt everything that could possibly be doubted. Using that method, the only thing he couldnt doubt was that he was thinking.

SkulkBait · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Nov 1 2004, 07:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So sex is an expression of love, but only if it is between a straight man and a straight woman? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Its not the expression of love that makes it good. You can "express" your love for an animal in a sexual way, and thats twisted and wrong. Its either that or its just for purely physical pleasure - and I believe that to be wrong also. That's just part of the nature of sex - it can be used in multiple situations with different things to express love. It is defined by this not so popular God as bad when it happens outside of a married relationship. He also then went on to define marriage as between a man and a woman.
 </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Yet one more thing I disagree with God on. I see no reason why homosexuals should not be alllowed to be married. Like so many other things God says are "right" or "wrong" he gives no reasoning, it just is and you have to accept it or give him the finger (guess which one I choose).

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No it doesn't, it means "sexually attracted to members of the same sex", just like heterosexual means "sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex". Both definitions only have to do with sex, but often men love other men (in the romantic/sexual way), just like men and women love eachother (in the romantic/sexual way). I see no reason why one can be considered an expression of love and the other not.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Okay you win the semantics <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />. That is exactly its real definition. Both can be expressions of love, only one can be considered good. As far as I'm concerned, God gets to make that call.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
But why did he make that call? It makes no sense.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Therin lies the problem. I don't believe God owns me, I don't believe anyone owns me. I find the idea repulsive. The civilized world did away with slavery a long time ago yet God continues to make it a staple of his relationship with humans.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Slavery and designations of inferiority go hand in hand. That's why we feel completely comfortable "enslaving" puppies for our spaw.... kids. We are superior to dogs and cats, so we make slaves out of them - we decide if they live or die, we make all their decisions for them. I'm vastly inferior to a supreme being such as God, so I'm not ashamed to serve (I say serve as though I actually do, when I really dont because I am fool, but were I a decent Christian I would). The enslaving of negro's was wrong because they were people, no better or worse than ourselves, and we forcibly took them from their homes and bent them to our will.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
But we don't have to remain so inferior to God, he just likes to keep it that way. As I said before never allowing us to "grow up". Why did he create us if he intends to keep us inferior for all eternity? For that matter why force us into existance at all? He certainly doesn't need us.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And they have every right to tell the bastard to **** off because his "morals" don't make any freaking sense. He doesn't give any reasons for his moreals, they just are, which only makes sense if they somehow threaten him... but he is supposedly the most powerfull being in existance, how can he be threatened?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

He's not threatened, he even talks about laughing when people plan to do away with him. Is your father threatened when he insists you wear a helmet on your bike? When he insists you dont put that fork in the socket? No, he knows whats best for you, he cares about what happens to you, so he makes these laws, backed up by the mainstay of parents everywhere when their children are too young to understand - <b>because I said so![</b>. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
How can homosexuals having sense be anything like not sticking a fork in an electrical socket? What is God trying to protect us from? Physical harm? Then why don't any of his laws say anything about not jumping off clifs or going to space or spending too much time getting a tan? Some sort of spiritual harm? That almost makes sense until you realise that God is supposed to be all powerfull, so he could easily heal any spiritual harm that might have been caused. For that matter he makes the rules on what causes spiritual harm, so why make certain actions cause spiritual harm at all?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You cannot deny the goodness, it is written right there on the package. It is an indisputable holy text that has remained unchanged for nearly 80 years. This lends much to its credability.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Ah, but how do you explain the impact that Mr. Goodbar has had on children everywhere for as long as he has existed. Stomach aches, vomiting, hyperactive behaviour, "big bones" syndrome - surely these point to an insidious and dangerous culture of glutto... pure evil. The isolated nature of these incidents, the complete misuse of Mr. Goodbar in this circumstance and the fact that thousands of his devotees find him to enrich their life without any adverse consequences notwithstanding - this surely goes to prove that Mr. Goodbar should be stamped out of the modern society/diet.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
That ignores the problem. Mr. Goodbar doesn't make people fat, cause diabities, or hyperactivity. Mr. Goodbar is mearly the excuse for such things, which are really brought on by human failings, greed, gluttony, ect...

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The difference is that satan was right. At least as far as I'm concerned. Plus, he stood up to the (supposedly) most powerful being in the entirety of... everything. That is no ordinary display of testicular fortitude.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well I dont think he was right - and regardless he lost. And he wasnt terribly happy about losing, especially given that he now knew his future. Apparently, he is trying to take some people down with him to a place with a pretty bad reputation... I just cant back satan based around morality when I believe that God defines it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I guess thats just annother fundamental difference between us, I don't think God defines morality, he mearly demands you follow his version of it. In my opinion, morality can not be concretly defined, like beuty it is in the eye of the beholder.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>But he never gives me the option of being un-created now does he? To me that is as good as creating me without my concent.

Because I never asked for the things he gave me, because he expects me to be greatful that he forced me into existance and threw me on this miserable little planet full of psychos. If he wants my gratitude hes going to have to do better than that.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I certainly dont see it as good as being created without consent. I'd have to support suicide if I believed that, because I was born without my consent, so it should follow that I'd naturally be justified in offing myself.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Thats how I justify it, yes. The only reason you don't condone it is because your God told you not to. See what I mean about him? He gives you no choice in the matter.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You probably have your health, a job in a first world country, friends, family - I think you've got a lot to be grateful for, far more than most of this world anyway.....
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well I have a family and live in a first world country, but other than that its not going so good in SkulkBait land. I don't blame God for the bad things happening to me any more than I believe the good things happening to me are his doing. I do, however, blame him for not giving me any choice in the matter of existing. It would be like me locking you in a locked room, and you somehow finding a way to mine an etable substance out of the floor, and then me telling you you should serve me as an expression of your gratitude that I gave you a floor made of food.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Because that would make the choice too easy. Face it, he wants me to suffer for rejecting him, vengefull emotions, anger, jelousy, he is just as flawed as his creations, no matter how much he tries to deny it.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Well he actually makes several claims that would fit with your idea "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God" - "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord" etc.... I think this comes back to "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". God has no sin, and has collected rocks. Jealousy is not wrong when another man is sleeping with your wife.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
God only has no sin because he exempts himself from his own morality. Vengence is ok? Isn't this the guy who told us to turn the other cheek?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Yes he does, he could easily offer me non-existance, but he doesn't because hes a sadist.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, he isnt adverse to tough justice.... you might be right, not in that he's a sadist, but that he isnt offering you non-existance because his penchant for justice wouldnt let you get away with it - not unlike a jailer putting a childmolester in a cell without his pants and belt, cause he aint getting out of it that easy.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
See what I mean about him? Hes a complete ****. I never did anything to him, how could I? I'm mearly human, I ain't got nothing for an infinatly powerfull being. But he insists on punishing me severly for not following his silly rules... which he aparently made just so he could have an excuse to punish some people.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"I can't control what happens to you if you leave"? This is a being that can supposedly do <i>anything</i>, surely he has the power to offer more than two crummy options?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

God is limited in several regards. He cant sin, he cant lie - the omnipotence most people think he has doesnt exist. He cannot deny his own nature, and that nature is one of justice, which may explain why he didnt just say "your all forgiven kids", instead of sending down Jesus and making him pay for us. One of those options is not crummy.... but you'll never believe me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
As I said before, God can't sin because he exempts himself from his own rules. Again it looks as though he makes the rules just so he can have something to enforce.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Marine, good to see you back. It is great to see you and Skulkbait go at it - yet not descend into a flame war. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Oh there is still time - Goodbar fanatics never take too kindly to logic, reasoning and science stripping away their delusions.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Just like non-Goodbarians hate to have it pointed out that their ideas require just as much faith as ours do.

Swiftspear · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 31 2004, 02:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mirrodin @ Oct 31 2004, 02:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 31 2004, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Oct 30 2004, 05:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Oct 30 2004, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I want real evidence.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Jesus christ died and rose again, thus validating his claim to be God, and being God, what he said must be true. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I said real evidence. There is no real evidence for Jesus' resurrection or even that he was any more than one of hundreds or thousands of self proclaimed prophets at the time. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
You can't convict a person for murder with only a witness and you can't turn an atheist into a believer with just words. I demand material proof. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
The tomb was found empty according to roman documentation, there were several, and by several I mean crowds and crowds, of recorded whitnesses... And not only that, but several of those whitnesses died (read were exicuted) because they refused to recind thier statements that they saw him alive. It all comes down to how reliable you belive the new testimate to be, if you belive it to be reliable, which is not an increadibly preposterous claim with all the supporting evidence and historical analisis we have done to it, then it is hard to not belive that Jesus Christ did indeed die and rize again. If there was a trial in that period, using the methods we use in todays courts, and the new testimate events really happened the way it says they did, then it would DEFINTALY be found that he did rize from the dead. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Do you really wanna get into this? You know that the accounts of his resurrection contradict each other right? I can dig up more later if you want, but this isn't good evidence for god at all.

Besides, quoting someone whose name I can't remember atm, "miraculous claims require miraculous proof" or maybe it was extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Bah, you get the point <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
There is no miraculous proof for Jesus' resurrection.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I have never heard of an instance in history when someone has died for a cause that they knew to be false. The resurection of Jesus is the cornerstone of the christain faith, and nearly all the original whitnesses were exicuted at some point in time, with the condition that they could save thier lives if they recinded thier claims that Jesus was the son of God and that he had risen from the dead.

So essentially, at least a dozen men who were supposed to have whitnessed Jesus die on the cross, and alive within the week after three days had passed, willingly excepted death rather than state that what they claimed to have seen was a lie.

To me that is a fairly miraculous peice of evidence.

Nadagast · November 2004

Can I see a reliable source that says this? I've investigated this and none of the sources I've seen have mentioned people being killed

Besides, any evidence you gain from people dying, is counteracted by the contradictory accounts in the bible. Do I need to go into that? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Nov 1 2004, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nagadast - you probably missed this:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Well here is a challenge for you. Tell me how you would go about proving he was resurrected, if indeed it was true. What could you do, 2000 years ago, to prove to future generations that he was resurrected? Paul had a method when challenged to prove Jesus rose again "There are plenty of people alive today who witnessed it - go ask them!". But that wont hold for people in the future, all those guys are dead. Written testimony? Just claim the authors are lying.

If you were there at that time, if you saw it with your own eyes - it would still be impossible for you to provide proof of the authenticity of the event. You ask for something you know couldnt exist even if the event was historically true, and then take the lack of an answer as proof it was false....</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You have defined yourself out of ever possibly believing in Jesus existance. You are determined, like Descarte, to doubt everything that could possibly be doubted. Using that method, the only thing he couldnt doubt was that he was thinking. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
And that makes it true because...? Lack of a hypothesis which could be falsified is what seperates this garbage from real science. People analyze the (contradictory) evidence, and come to the conclusion that it's BS.

Besides, even if you assume that Jesus' body somehow did leave his tomb, there are many possible explanations, one highly unlikely one is God. Should I assume that just because my keys aren't where I remember placing them last it is God also? Or is it more likely that my roommates or dog moved them? Maybe I just don't remember correctly? Think about it. Leaping to the conclusion that "God did it" is pretty far fetched and really has no basis.

Not to mention, it's scientifically impossible to 'resurrect' someone. Oh wait, God did it. Let's just throw out science.

Swiftspear · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 1 2004, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Can I see a reliable source that says this? I've investigated this and none of the sources I've seen have mentioned people being killed

Besides, any evidence you gain from people dying, is counteracted by the contradictory accounts in the bible. Do I need to go into that? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
<a href='http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/eusebius.html' target='_blank'>The martyrdom of Peter and Paul</a>
Peter was the head of the early church as Jesus' deciple and the one who discovered the empty tomb, this was followed by many more famous martyrdoms and executions.

kida · November 2004

Christ you all remind me of the pharisees and saducees in the bible, always bickering over the trivial things in life. oh the irony.

Swiftspear · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Nov 2 2004, 03:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Christ you all remind me of the pharisees and saducees in the bible, always bickering over the trivial things in life. oh the irony.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' />

Disscussion through argumentation is hardly the charge Jesus placed against the Pharisees and Saducees, They were accused of putting the law above the value of humanity and being hypocrytical in thier using of the law to put themselfs in high places of office and gain personal riches though the temple.

kida · November 2004

OK

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Nov 1 2004, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <a href='http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/eusebius.html' target='_blank'>The martyrdom of Peter and Paul</a> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
uhm, sorry that's not a reliable source. Now, please take the Easter Challenge: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In Losing Faith in Faith, Dan barker gives a challenge to Christians everywhere. The Easter Challenge is straightforward: recount what happened on Easter.

The conditions of the challenge are equally simple (and reasonable). First, read each account of the resurrection found in the Bible. He gives the references: in the Gospels - Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21; other sources ? Acts 1:3-12 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.

Then, without omitting any details of these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension.

Barker says that not all of the times of day are made clear in the accounts, so it is okay to make educated guesses when necessary. The important thing is that no detail is omitted.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

GOGO! It's impossible.

Pepe_Muffassa · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 3 2004, 01:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Nov 1 2004, 11:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <a href='http://www.kensmen.com/catholic/eusebius.html' target='_blank'>The martyrdom of Peter and Paul</a> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
uhm, sorry that's not a reliable source. Now, please take the Easter Challenge: <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>In Losing Faith in Faith, Dan barker gives a challenge to Christians everywhere. The Easter Challenge is straightforward: recount what happened on Easter.

The conditions of the challenge are equally simple (and reasonable). First, read each account of the resurrection found in the Bible. He gives the references: in the Gospels - Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21; other sources ? Acts 1:3-12 and 1 Corinthians 15:3-8.

Then, without omitting any details of these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension.

Barker says that not all of the times of day are made clear in the accounts, so it is okay to make educated guesses when necessary. The important thing is that no detail is omitted.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

GOGO! It's impossible.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
<a href='http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.html' target='_blank'>http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.html</a>

not that hard really.

DarkATi · November 2004

:: Who is Jesus Christ?

We hear often of this man called Jesus. But who is He really?

Some people claim He was just a "Good Teacher" or a "Prophet".
The problem is, those answers always leave us with what should be an obvious dilemma ...

See, if Jesus Christ was not actually whom He claimed to be (God's only Son and in fact God in the flesh) ... then for Him to stake such claims would make Him a lunatic, a sick liar, completely delusional and someone with quite an ego problem! If this is the case ... Then He is NOT one to be followed, worshipped or even listened to for that matter! Rather someone whom now-a-days we'd seek some "professional help" for.

But what if His claims were true? Consider it for a moment.
What if the very Creator of the Universe put on human flesh and came to earth to walk amongst His creation. If this is true, wouldn't it be important to at least hear what He had to say?

:: Yes But, How Can We Know For Sure?

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.." Isaiah 46:9-10 (God the Father)

"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he." John 13:19 (God the Son)

To establish the fact that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be. We also need to establish the validity of the Bible. Because it is the Bible that presents Jesus Christ to us, as the Son of God who came to this earth born of a virgin with the purpose of redeeming mankind from our sins through the sacrifice of His very own life - for ours - on a cross.

It is the Bible that tells us of our need for a Savior.

It is the Bible that tells us what we must do to be saved.

It is the Bible that tells us this love story of an undeserved love, mercy, grace and redemption.

It is the Bible that tells us Jesus died, rose from the grave and conquered death on the 3rd day.

It is the Bible that tells us Jesus ascended back to Heaven to prepare for us a place.

It is the Bible that tells us that Jesus is coming back again!

If the Bible is not true ... If Jesus is not who He claimed to be ...
then Christianity is but a mere fairy tale and we are wasting our time here.

So, How can we know for sure if the Bible is true?
Simple, thru Prophecy.

The Bible is the only book that dares to establish it's credibility by proclaiming history in advance. Hundreds of the Bible's prophecies have been fulfilled precisely, literally, down to the detail. The track record has been 100%. (There are also many last days prophecies that are now being fulfilled right before our eyes! (See Also: 101 Last Days Prophecies)

God alone - who is outside of time - can declare the end from the beginning.
God alone did this to prove to us that His Word is true.

So let's take a closer look at this man Jesus through the Prophecies in the Bible.

:: Jesus in Prophecy

The Old Testament predicted the coming of God's Anointed One,
Jesus the Christ in amazing detail. Here is but a sampling of fulfilled prophecies.

the Prophecies

1. Genesis 3:15
2. Genesis 18:18
3. Psalm 132:11, Jere.23:5
4. Gen 49:10
5. Isaiah 9:7,11:1
6. Micah 5:2
7. Daniel 9:25
8. Isaiah 7:14
9. Psalm 72:10-11
10. Hosea 11:1
11. Is 40:3,Mal 3:1
12. Isaiah 9:1-2
13. Deut. 18:15
14. Psalm 110:4
15. Isaiah 53:3
16. Isaiah 11:2
17. Zech 9:9
18. Psalm 41:9
19. Zech. 11:12
20. Zech 11:13
21. Psalm 27:12
22. Isaiah 53:7
23. Isaiah 50:6
24. Psalm 69:4
25. Isaiah 53:4-5
26. Isaiah 53:12
27. Psalm 22:16
28. Psalm 22:6-8
29. Psalm 69:21
30. Psalm 22:8
31. Psalm 109:4
32. Zec. 12:10
33. Psalm 22:18
34. Psalm 34:20
35. Isaiah 53:9
36. Psalm 16:10
37. Psalm 68:18

1. Would be the Seed of a Woman
2. Promised Offspring of Abraham
3. The Seed of David
4. Descend from the tribe of Judah
5. The Heir to the throne of David
6. Place of Birth
7. Time of Birth
8. Born of a virgin
9. Adored by great persons
10. Escape from Egypt
11. Proceeded by a forerunner
12. Ministry in Galilee
13. A Prophet
14. A priest like Melchizedek
15. Rejected by the Jews
16. Characteristics
17. Triumphal Entry
18. Betrayed by a friend
19. Sold for 30 pieces of Silver
20. Money thrown to Potter field
21. False witnesses accuse Him
22. Silent when accused
23. Struck & spit on
24. Hated without cause
25. Suffered vicariously
26. Crucified with sinners
27. Hands & feet pierced
28. Mocked & insulted
29. Given gall & vinegar
30. Hears prophetic words in mockery
31. Prays for enemies
32. His side to be pierced
33. Soldiers cast lots for His garments
34. Not a bone to be broken
35. To be buried with the rich
36. His resurrection
37. His ascension
the Fulfillment

1. Gal 4:4, Lk 2:7,
2. Acts 3:25, Gal 3:16
3. Acts 13:23
4. Matt. 1:2-3,Luke 3:33
5. Matthew 1:1, 1:6
6. Matt.2:1, Luke 2:4-7
7. Luke 2:1-2,2:3-7
8. Mt.1:18,Lk1:26-38
9. Matt 2:1-11
10. Matt. 2:14 & 15
11. Mat 3:1-3,Lk 1:17
12. Matt. 4:12-16
13. John 6:14
14. Hebrews 5:5-6,6:20,
15. John 1:11,5:43,
16. Luke 2:52, 4:18
17. Jn12:13-14,Mt 21:1
18. Mark 14:10
19. Matt 26:15
20. Matt. 27:6-7
21. Matt. 26:60-61
22. Matt.26:62-63,
23. Mark 14:65
24. John 15:23-25
25. Matt.8:16-17
26. Matt. 27:38
27. John 20:27
28. Matt. 27:39-40
29. John 19:29
30. Matt. 27:43
31. Luke 23:34
32. John 19:34
33. Mark 15:24
34. John 19:33
35. Matt. 27: 57-60
36. Matt 28:9
37. Luke 24:50-51

We have shown just 37 of the prophecies that predicted the Messiah who was to come.
There are over 300. They were ALL fulfilled - to the letter - by Jesus Christ.

:: Statistically Impossible!

It is statistically impossible for one man to fulfill all of these prophecies by chance.

To illustrate this even further, let's calculate the odds of just eight of these prophecies
being fulfilled in any one person.

1. What's the chance that a man would be born in the tiny town of Bethlehem? (Micah 5:2)
Scholars have conservatively estimated that during Jesus' day, the chance would be 1 in 200,000.

2. How many kings have entered their city on a donkey? (Zechariah 9:9)
Let's be very conservative and say 1 in 100.

3. How many people have been betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver? (Zechariah 11:12)
Certainly less than 1 in 1000.

4. How often is betrayal money used to buy a potter's field? (Zechariah 11:13)
Probably none, other than Jesus, but let's say 1 in 100,000

5. Of those who were murdered, how many were wounded in their hands? (Zechariah 13:6)
No more than 1 in 1000.

6. How many criminals who are innocent offer no defense at their trial? (Isaiah 53:7)
Very few, but let's say 1 in 1000.

7. Of those crucified, how many died with the wicked, but had their grave with the rich? (Isaiah 53:9)
Maybe, at most 1 in 1000.

8. Of all the people who have been put to death, what portion were crucified? (Psalm 22:16)
Maybe 1 in 10,000.

"Let's take this principle of composite probability to our eight prophecies concerning Jesus the Messiah. Since we've used powers of 10, it's easy to multiply our probabilities together. Using this simple formula, and taking all eight prophecies together with the very generous levels of probability we've allowed each one, we arrive at a composite probability for all eight prophecies of 10 28. That's 10 with 28 zeros following it. Moreover, to be entirely realistic we should divide that by the total population during the past two thousand years, which we will liberally estimate at 100 billion (10 11). When we do that, we arrive at a generous composite probability of 1 in 10 17.

In a statistics class, the way we try to get a feeling for a particular statistic or probability like "one in one hundred" is to imagine a bucket with one hundred silver dollars in it. We then imagine taking one of those silver dollars, marking it, then putting it back in and mixing it all up. So then the bucket contains ninety-nine unmarked silver dollars, and one marked silver dollar. The chance of reaching in and randomly selecting the one marked silver dollar is one in one hundred. That's an elementary way of visualizing what we mean by one in one hundred.

Well, in regard to these eight messianic prophecies of Jesus, we have a probability of 1 in 10 17. So what we need to do is get a bucket and put 10 17 silver dollars in there. The problem is that it would have to be a pretty big bucket. In fact, what I would need is a bucket the size of the state of Texas, which I can then fill with silver dollars to a depth of two feet. In other words, the chance of one person fulfilling those eight prophecies is equivalent to marking one silver dollar with an X, putting it in a bucket the size of Texas with unmarked silver dollars standing two feet deep, mixing them up in such a way that the marked coin could be anywhere, and then reaching back in at random and drawing out the marked silver dollar.

That obviously would be pretty unlikely. But we need to bear in mind that we actually have more than three hundred prophecies fulfilled in Jesus to choose from. So far we've used only eight. So let's add another eight; but recognize, too, that because we chose the simplest prophecies for the first eight, the more prophecies we choose, the more technical and specific each selection would become, that is, the more rare they will be in terms of probability.

However, for the purposes of this study, let's assume the next eight are no more rare, or less likely, than the first eight. Assuming there's no decrease in likelihood, we'll multiply 10 28 by 10 28, which is 10 56. We then divide by the world population over the past two thousand years 10 11, so we now have a composite probability of 10 45 that we have to deal with. And for a bucket we now need one that can contain 10 45........"

(For a much more detailed look at the Composite Probability and much more
See: "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" Dr. Chuck Missler, pg's 149-161)

Any person rejecting Jesus Christ as the Son of God is rejecting a fact proven more absolutely than any other fact in the world. Any person rejecting the accuracy and inerrancy of God's Word is simply choosing to ignore the evidence.

The capstone of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. No other person in history predicted his own death and subsequent resurrection, and then proved his assertion by appearing to hundreds after his death, in his resurrected body. This fact alone, proves that Jesus is exactly who He said He was - God in human form.

This info in much greater detail can be found in:
> "Learn the Bible in 24 Hours" (book) - Chuck Missler, (Hour 13; 'How Sure Can We Be?' pg's 149-161)
> "Footprints of the Messiah" (briefing package) - Chuck Missler
> "Messages from Heaven" - (book) - Jim Tetlow, (Chapter 5; 'Why the Bible is Our Filter' pg's 55-72)

:: Jesus is the ONLY WAY!

If you will accept the fact that the Bible is true ...
Then you will need to know what it says about many important issues.
For instance ... are you aware of what it says concerning the LIE that all roads lead to God?
The Bible declares that there is but one way and it is down a narrow road. (See Also: One Lie to Rule them All)

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 (KJV)

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12 (KJV)

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved ... " Acts 16:31 (KJV)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" 1 John 5:13 (KJV)

"... if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9 (KJV)

It is not enough to just believe that there was a man named Jesus Christ who lived once
upon a time. History proves that fact. This is rather about believing what the Bible says
about Jesus Christ!

Many Cults would be quick to profess that they believe in "Jesus" ... but it is not the Jesus of the Bible.
(Must Read! Jesus Who? by: T.A. McMahon)

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven ....." Colossians 1:15-20

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2:9

:: Jesus is the ONLY Mediator and Advocate

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 John 2:1 (KJV)

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." Hebrews 9:15 (KJV)

"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." Hebrews 12:24 (KJV)

This tells us it is pointless - and unbiblical - to attempt to pray to anyone or anything else. Jesus is the only one with this Mediatorial position between God and man. No such title was ever given to anyone else in God's Word. Nor would anyone who truly follows Jesus try to rob Him of this title and position.

While it is beyond the scope of this article, we must mention in brief ... The fact that Jesus is the ONLY Mediator and Advocate according to God's Word also unquestionably excludes the humble handmaiden of the Bible named Mary from such a position. The Mary of the Bible did NOT draw attention to herself but pointed people to Christ. The Mary of the Bible would never claim such a role for herself. However, the Apparitions of "Mary" that are appearing around the world claim this role and much more. Therefore, we must conclude that this is not the Mary of the Bible. Rather a demonic imposter. (For much more info see: Apparitions of "Mary").

We come to God the Father through Jesus alone. Not His Mother.
Not any person - dead or alive. Not any Priest, Pastor, Superstar ... just Jesus!

We quoted this one already but it is worth repeating:
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 (KJV)

:: Jesus Died Once For All - Never To Be Repeated

"... so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many" Hebrews 9:28 (KJV)

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10-14 (KJV)

Jesus is NOW sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven.
As His sacrifice was perfect and complete and for all time!

When Jesus died, he cried in triumph "It Is Finished" (John 19:30) in the original Greek the word was "Tetelastai" an expression that meant the debt had been "PAID IN FULL!"

His sacrifice was sufficient. He left nothing unfinished! To attempt to offer 'our own suffering' for our sins or the sins of others undermines and denies the sufficiency and worth of His Sacrifice.

Can we offer something on our own that HE - the SON OF GOD - was not capable of achieving on the cross?

:: Jesus Came to Save Sinners!

"... For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 9:13 (KJV)

# Who Are The Sinners? ...

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23 (KJV)

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" 1 John 1:10 (KJV)

This covers us all - leaves NO ONE infallible!

# Sin Has A Consequence & Punishment ...

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23 (KJV)

# There Needed To Be A Sacrifice, A Payment For Sin ...

" ... Without shedding of blood is no remission (of sins)." Hebrews 9:22 (KJV)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 (KJV)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:8-10

If you're feeling like this does not apply to YOU because you are a good person ... think again!
Why not take a look at yourself through God's Holy eyes.

Go watch the "The Good Test" right now, and see how you do!

:: Religion Kills - JESUS SAVES!

What we are endorsing here is a personal relationship with "Jesus Christ" .... NOT RELIGION!

Religion Is:
Man's feeble attempt to work their way to God by their own merit ... with do's & don'ts ... in an attempt to earn salvation that we are undeserving of ... and could never attain on our own.

God's Word declares that "... our righteousness are as filthy rags" Isaiah 64:6

If we were capable of earning our own Salvation - then Jesus did not need to die!

This is evidenced BY HIS OWN WORDS when He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane shortly before His crucifixion;

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matthew 26:39 (KJV)

"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done." Matthew 26:42 (KJV)

"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words." Matthew 26:44 (KJV)

He asked His Father THREE TIMES and guess what ... There was NO OTHER WAY!

There needed to be a payment for our sins - once for all - He did this for us willingly. And it cost Him everything. (See also: "The Medical Aspects of the Crucifixion")

Jesus Christ is God's ONE & ONLY provision for our Salvation. He was the ONLY acceptable sacrifice!

He is the very bridge to God that we needed - yet could not have attained - Thru Him alone we are freely offered Salvation by Grace through Faith!

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3

:: Saved By Grace Through Faith

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." Titus 3:4-7 (KJV)

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:24 (KJV)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2 (KJV)

(See Also: Romans 5:15-21 // Romans 11:5-6 // Ephesians 1:7-12)

Salvation cannot be earned partly by works and partly by grace ... or grace is no longer grace!

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6 (KJV)

(See Also: "Good People Don't Go to Heaven!" and "Law vs. Grace")

:: What Does This Have To Do With YOU?

Our debt - Yours and Mine - was paid in full at the cross by Jesus Christ Himself! He offers salvation to those who believe on Him, He bought us back to God by His precious blood ... If we choose to accept this free gift from Him!

We can Believe Him or Reject Him. (To ignore Him is the same as Rejecting Him.) But one day every knee will bow...

"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Romans 14:11 (KJV)

Would you prefer to meet Him now as your Savior and Friend who loves you.
Or meet Him for the first time as your judge as you go into eternal separation from Him?

The choice is up to you. No one can make it for you. But for your sake please don't put this off ... today is the day of Salvation! "...behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Corinthians 6:2

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." John 1:12 (KJV)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16-17 (KJV)

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25 (KJV)

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." John 15:13-14 (KJV)

What Love God has for us ... what an Awesome plan of Redemption!
It is truly a love story written in blood on a wooden cross 2000 years ago!
Do yourself a favor ... look into this Awesome person named Jesus Christ!
Considering your eternity is on the line ... Don't you think it is worth some serious attention.

If you haven't already done so... and you would like to make the most important decision of your life ... You can invite Him into your life right now - Just cry out to Him - He will hear you! Tell Him you Believe He is who He said He was - God's only Son ... Admit you are a sinner - Be willing to turn from your sin & Repent! ... Tell Him you Believe He died on the Cross for YOUR sins ... And that He rose again on the third day ... Thank Him for dying for you ... Ask Him to come into your life right now ... To be your Lord, your Personal Savior, Your Friend!

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

This is not a magical prayer ... If you don't mean it, then you are doing nothing more than reciting empty words. God sees what is in your heart. If you truly cry out to Jesus - in repentance - believing He is who He claimed to be and admit you need Him as your Savior - He will come into your life ... you will be saved!

Read: Psalm 51:1-17. It is a prayer of repentance written by David.
This needs to be our heart's cry as well.

:: Born Again?

If you have asked Jesus Christ to come into your life, you are now a Born Again child of God!

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 (KJV)

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." John 3:6-7 (KJV)

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)

Born Once - Die Twice
Born Twice - Die Once!

:: Now What?

If you do choose to make the ULTIMATE DECISION and accept Jesus Christ into your life ...
You will need to get yourself a Bible ... It's GOD'S WORD!

The 66 Books from Genesis to Revelation - is the verbally inspired Word of God, inerrant and infallible in the original manuscripts, and the supreme and Final Authority in ALL matters of faith and life.

It is interpreted - by the Holy Spirit - to each True Believer!
The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. (John 16:13)

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." John 17:17 (KJV)

"The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV)

The importance of the Word of God cannot be overstated since God himself has magnified His Word above His own name. (Psalm 138:2) God has proven and validated His Word to us by writing History in Advance ... declaring the end from the beginning. He has proven Himself and His Word to anyone who seeks The Truth. (See Also: 101 Last Days Prophecies)

Next, You will need to find yourself a good church in your area, so you can learn and grow and also find others to fellowship with! We can recommend Calvary Chapels ... No matter where you live ... chances are, there is probably one near you! (United States Locator Map // International Map )

:: Finally ...

Finally ... Get to know Jesus through His Word and through Prayer.
Talk to Him like you would a friend!

You now have 24 hour Access to the Throne Room of the Universe - take advantage of that!
Pray without ceasing! He makes life worth living and He loves you so much!

There is but one more thing we would like to say about Jesus Christ ...
HE IS COMING BACK FOR US SOON! (For More Info On His Soon Return: click here!)

"Even so, Come Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:20

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)

~ DarkATi

Nadagast · November 2004

wow I'm amazed you believe stuff like tektonics. That link doesn't even provide a timeline of the day's events, it doesn't complete the challenge, it merely attempts to refute some blatant contradictions. Look, let me point out several examples of blatant contradictions:

Mt. 28:2
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Luke 28:2
And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

Mk 16:5
And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
John 20:12
And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Your site may not CHOOSE TO READ THESE AS CONTRADICTIONS, but they *ARE*. Wether you like it or not. They are contradictory claims. Period. 1 is not 2. The stone blocking the door is not the same as the stone not blocking the door. There is no way to say otherwise unless you wish to decieve yourself.

Did the disciples first see Jesus after his resurrection at Galilee or in a room in Jerusalem?

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Matthew 28:16-17
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Jesus man isn't it abundantly clear that this stuff is man made? It's OBVIOUS. I don't see how any rational human being can buy into this. JOIN US OR BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY? Right, not man made at all.

Again, you may not choose to read these as contradictions, BUT THEY ARE. Let me say it again: Extraordinary claims (someone being resurrected is pretty damn extraordinary) require extraordinary proof. There's none.

Oh and hey, lets just throw out what's known as science and logic. People can be resurrected if God does it! SERIOUS!

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 3 2004, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> See, if Jesus Christ was not actually whom He claimed to be (God's only Son and in fact God in the flesh) ... then for Him to stake such claims would make Him a lunatic, a sick liar, completely delusional and someone with quite an ego problem! If this is the case ... Then He is NOT one to be followed, worshipped or even listened to for that matter! Rather someone whom now-a-days we'd seek some "professional help" for.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
The lunatic, liar, or lord argument is so terrible it's astonishing lol. There are PLENTY of other possibilities.

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 3 2004, 12:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The Bible is the only book that dares to establish it's credibility by proclaiming history in advance. Hundreds of the Bible's prophecies have been fulfilled precisely, literally, down to the detail. The track record has been 100%. (There are also many last days prophecies that are now being fulfilled right before our eyes! (See Also: 101 Last Days Prophecies)  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Sorry what? No. The bible is incorrect and inaccurate, and contradictory. Period. I'm sorry but anyone who examines the bible from an unbiased standpoint will find this out.

The bible says slavery is cool.
The bible says pi = 3.
The bible says bats are birds.
The bible says Noah's Ark happened.
The bible says the moon is a 'lesser light' when it does not emit light at all.
The bible says that God seperates light from dark on the first day of creation, yet he only makes light producing objects (sun/stars) on the fourth day.
The bible contradicts itself.

Nadagast · November 2004

Okay I just looked at your first supposed 'prophecy'

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I don't see a prophecy, please tell me what the prophecy is...

Psalm 27:12
Deliver me not over unto the will of mine enemies: for false witnesses are risen up against me, and such as breathe out cruelty.

I see no prophecies =|

DarkATi · November 2004

Nadagast, I will ask you this question: "If I could disprove every "contradiction" in the Bible, would you then believe in Jesus, in the God of the Bible?"

I can disprove everything you say, the Bible has ommissions, difficulties and figurative puzzles but it has not one contradiction.

I have to go right now but you make a post with every contradiction you can think of and I'll disprove it for you. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' />

I'm not an idiot who stands on faith alone, I look at the facts, too.

So post away and God bless.

~ DarkATi

Nadagast · November 2004

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 3 2004, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Nadagast, I will ask you this question: "If I could disprove every "contradiction" in the Bible, would you then believe in Jesus, in the God of the Bible?"  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
First, I HIGHLY doubt you could disprove every contradiction in the bible. ANY unbiased source will tell you that there are plenty.

Second, even if you did somehow do that, no I would not believe in any religion, because I have plenty of other reasons for not believing in Christianity other than contradictions in the bible. If you somehow cleared up all my qualms with religion in general, then yes I would believe. I have no problem being open minded. I don't see why you do.

Who Was Jesus?

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