Who Was Jesus?
Swiftspear
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
Custim tital Join Date: 2003-10-29 Member: 22097Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Yup...</div> This is just an exercize in curiosity. I'm assuming pretty much everyone knows the story of Jesus so I'm not really asking for a history here. I just want too see the range of opinion as I have really never seen any analisis of the character of Jesus from any prespectives asside from the various Christian outlooks.
Feel free to dicuss others prespectives, but please post your own before doing so.
And to not be hypocrical... I think that Jesus was the son of God, He came to the earth to recommit humanity to God's plan, and he died to change the relationship between man and the immortal consequences of his actions on earth. I think Jesus would pretty much be your normal guy, just with an infinate ammount of loving and care for everyone around him and a hole lot of jewish bood smarts. I think Jesus experianced all the emotions that every other human being experianced, and I think that most of the time he wasn't looking down on his followers in any way dispite the fact that they constantly proved themselfs to be lesser. I think Jesus had a very close friendship with all of his deciples and I think that he probably spent most of his time walking talking and joking with them when he wasn't teaching. Over all I think that Jesus was pretty much exactly the guy that the bible claimed he was.
Feel free to dicuss others prespectives, but please post your own before doing so.
And to not be hypocrical... I think that Jesus was the son of God, He came to the earth to recommit humanity to God's plan, and he died to change the relationship between man and the immortal consequences of his actions on earth. I think Jesus would pretty much be your normal guy, just with an infinate ammount of loving and care for everyone around him and a hole lot of jewish bood smarts. I think Jesus experianced all the emotions that every other human being experianced, and I think that most of the time he wasn't looking down on his followers in any way dispite the fact that they constantly proved themselfs to be lesser. I think Jesus had a very close friendship with all of his deciples and I think that he probably spent most of his time walking talking and joking with them when he wasn't teaching. Over all I think that Jesus was pretty much exactly the guy that the bible claimed he was.
Comments
According to the jews, an impostor and a liar, probably a blasphemer too, making ridiculous claims of being the son of God and the Messiah.
According to the muslims, who call him Isa, he was the greatest prophet of God (but he was not God himself or his son) until Muhammad, the last prophet, came. Also, the muslims do not believe that he is dead or was ever crucified, but, quote, "that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world."
According the christians, Jesus was the Messiah and the son of God, sent to earth to die for our sins. He died on the cross, rose from his grave on the third day, then ascended to heavens fourty days later.
As a christian, I support the fourth explanation, although I do not take everything the bible says at face value.
As a christian, I support the fourth explanation, although I do not take everything the bible says at face value.
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Same here
In discussions like these, I like to mention "Nathan der Weise", or "Nathan the Wise" in english, a play by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (1729 - 1781). More specifically, the "ringparabel" in Act 3, Scene 7. If you understand german, I strongly encourage you to <a href='http://www.teachsam.de/deutsch/d_literatur/d_aut/les/les_dram/les_nathan/nathan_text/les_nathan_txt_3.7.htm' target='_blank'>read the original,</a> otherwise, check out an <a href='http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/natws10.txt' target='_blank'>english version</a> and search for the line "In days of yore, there dwelt in east a man" (use the search function of your browser, nub). I considered copy and paste, but didn't want to spam the thread too much, sorry.
If you need a little help with understanding this story, allow me to explain: The tale is of course a fable. It is not about rings, but about religions. We cannot merely claim the virtues of our religion, for our claims do not show more merit than those of the other religions. Therefore we must PROVE our merit, by showing that our religion is the one true faith of goodness and love. Whenever the three big monotheistic religions are compared, I believe we should be mindful of this.
Jesus was the proclaimed son of a Jewish Carpenter who wasn't very rich, nor was he very poor. He was brought up into a working class household and no doubt had brothers and sisters, which never seem to come up in the bible, but think about it. His mother was alot younger than his father, by some 20 years if tradition was anything to go on from back then. Primarily people see Jesus as the pale skinned, mild mannered savior, but in truth, being a carpenter in the dark days, he was probably well built, short tempered, and not one to dispute over a conversation. He obviously had the ability to persuade people well, since he started a new epoch in the jewish religion, which was not accepted by all, but acknowledged as an option. He was in turn killed for his beliefs by the Romans, but it has yet to be proven exactly or not if his beliefs were true or not.
I don't want to hyjack - so please don't take this as a challenge. This is just the basics "frame of reference" explanation.
Man fell into sin (Genisis - Adam - tree of good/evil)
Man cannot redeem himself.
Requirements for redemption = perfect life
No one is perfect.
Jesus comes to earth as "God-Man" - both fully God, fully man. (reason for virgin birth).
As God, he can live perfect.
As Man, he can represent the human race.
Without being both God and Man fully, he can not do what he came to do - redeem human kind.
Reason for crucifixion - our sin demands death. Jesus is representing us / dieing for us. God's wrath is appeased.
To add to that, he also was most likely Black, something most Christians don't seem to realise. (I include myself in that, as it only dawned on me ... 4 or so years ago)
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At this point my image of Jesus is simply congruent with lolfighter's, so I won't repeat it.
No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language.
Also a highly intelligent man. No one was ever able to find fault with his arguments or catch him in a carefully crafted trap while debating points with him. He felt passionately about things that were important to him and would do anything for a person he cared about. Probably an incredible public speaker, considering the crowds he drew. And yet, most likely an introvert considering his need to go out to the empty places and spend time alone with God in order to re-energize himself, his need for a small group of close knit friends, and his desire to deal with people one-on-one whenever possible.
May have been black... more likely of just a sort of 'desert complexion'. He was a jew living in the middle east, after all. Skin color is just really unimportant.
In general, an extremely cool guy whom I'd really enjoy meeting some day. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Even today you will find people who claim to talk to the dead, who claim to talk to god, who claim to heal the sick and alleviate you from all that hard earned money you've accumulated. There's people making the most silly claims and yet they are believed by hundreds of thousands.
The only argument FOR Jesus that I have heard is the rather unconvincing, "oh yeah, but those other fakers didn't become the foundation for a religion and didn't become some of the most widely known people of all time so obviously that says something about the quality of their work". Well, if you don't see what's wrong with that, the second most sold book of all time is "quotations from chairman Mao Tse-tung", for hundreds of years the Earth was not only believed to be flat, everything to be made out of a combination of the four "elements" fire, water, earth and air, it was accepted as TRUTH . Popularity doesn't mean a damned thing, truth isn't a popularity contest.
No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that made my day, and made me laugh too. HAHAHAHA.
oh man, great one. If I were drinking I might have spewed.
No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahaha
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Myth: Niether Jesus nor Hitler ever employed groups of goblins as assasins.
Fact: Jesus and Hitler BOTH employed groups of goblins as assasins. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, if you want to debate the "fact" of who lived or not - there is far more proof of the person Jesus living than there is of Alexander the Great.
Liek SwiftSpear, I too believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and most points about this fact have already been discussed. If you mean what type of person He was, then I think Him to pretty average guy. He was a carpenter, and for the 33 years of His life, He only spent 3 of it in ministry. So He lived as a carpenter's son for 30 years.
I think He had a sense of humor, the context isn't always available, but some passages seem to have humor or even sarcasm in their tone, but I think most of all He was committed. To me, being the Son of God, knowing the future, what would happen to Him, yet still committing His life to helping, healing, and teaching the lost, and daily proclaiming the hope that He came to bring to the very people who He knew would soon call for His death, that's the amazing part of His life. He loved us so much and wanted ot repair that relationship we'd lost with God so badly, He endured the cross. My only hope is that I am willing to share that message to others with the same passion He had in giving it to me.
It's a Jewish tradition that once every year, everyone pass their sin into this lamb.
The lamb is then brought to the temple and sacrificed to God. In the process, cleaning everyone of their sins.
Jesus is the lamb. He came down so that we can pass all our sin into him. He is the only one capable. He let the Roman crucified him so that he can literally die for our sin.
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Which I believe is a bunch of bull.
I believed he's a great teacher. He's the one man the oppressed people have been waiting for to save them from the romans. Things get a little out of hands. He died, people won't give up, elevated him equal that of diety.
Then, there are serious problems with the churches. Let's get one thing straight, Jesus is AGAINST organized religious institution.
And, to believe that the only way to salvation is through salvation, you immediately deny at least half of the world population that has never heard of him.
No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more evidence that Jesus existed then any historical figure pretty much right up until Napolean. Given some of that is more likely to be fabricated then sourses for other figures, but the sheer volume is overwhelming to say the least.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A carpenter whose teaching of equality stirred up the empire and later lifted to the position of the Son of God by his fans.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus can be quoted claiming to be the son of God, the Messiah, and the king of the Jews all via primary sourses, and many many many repeating secondary sourses dating less then 100 years after his death.
Evidence asside I would much rather discuss the percieved charater of Jesus than the science of history if it is at all possible.
It's a Jewish tradition that once every year, everyone pass their sin into this lamb.
The lamb is then brought to the temple and sacrificed to God. In the process, cleaning everyone of their sins.
Jesus is the lamb. He came down so that we can pass all our sin into him. He is the only one capable. He let the Roman crucified him so that he can literally die for our sin.
...
Which I believe is a bunch of bull.
I believed he's a great teacher. He's the one man the oppressed people have been waiting for to save them from the romans. Things get a little out of hands. He died, people won't give up, elevated him equal that of diety.
Then, there are serious problems with the churches. Let's get one thing straight, Jesus is AGAINST organized religious institution.
And, to believe that the only way to salvation is through salvation, you immediately deny at least half of the world population that has never heard of him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
where'd you pull those facts from? i'd like to see bible verses and commentary from scholars, please.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dr.Suredeath+Oct 20 2004, 02:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dr.Suredeath @ Oct 20 2004, 02:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then, there are serious problems with the churches. Let's get one thing straight, Jesus is AGAINST organized religious institution. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dr.Suredeath where'd you get this from?
It's a Jewish tradition that once every year, everyone pass their sin into this lamb.
The lamb is then brought to the temple and sacrificed to God. In the process, cleaning everyone of their sins.
Jesus is the lamb. He came down so that we can pass all our sin into him. He is the only one capable. He let the Roman crucified him so that he can literally die for our sin.
...
Which I believe is a bunch of bull.
I believed he's a great teacher. He's the one man the oppressed people have been waiting for to save them from the romans. Things get a little out of hands. He died, people won't give up, elevated him equal that of diety.
Then, there are serious problems with the churches. Let's get one thing straight, Jesus is AGAINST organized religious institution.
And, to believe that the only way to salvation is through salvation, you immediately deny at least half of the world population that has never heard of him. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus wasn't against churches, per say. But his descriptions of churches are alot different then the churches we see around today for the most part.
As for your second argument, which is really kind of off topic in retrospect, I look at it this way <!--QuoteBegin-me from the FHF forums+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (me from the FHF forums)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Doesn't the bible say that every man will be given a chance to know God? it is also said that Jesus defeated death by dieing on the cross.
I don't know, I'm really just rambling, all I know is that God is just, and our interpritations of the bible concerning the afterlife often don't depict a just or loving God. If the bible is right concerning the afterlife, then I must assume that we haven't been reading it right, otherwize, all I know is that my God isn't limited by what a book says he can do. There is a system in place, but telling you what it is is like explaining a magic trick I don't know how to do. I can think of lots of ways it might be done, but I can state them until I am blue in the face and I probably still won't have it exactly right. My prespective is that I trust God on that one, and because I have to die to experiance it anyways, I really don't need to know how the afterlife works right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More or less I know that God is just, so if I can't think of a way that he could be running the world justly, I'm pretty sure the problem is me, not him.
You might as well just criticize capitalism, just because you don't understand how it works.
Well actually, the way I worded it was very bad.
But seriously, his action speaks for itself.
He will cry if he sees the Catholic church today.
This is coming from a kid growing up under the care of the Seventh-day Adventists, take it with a grain of salt.
Jesus replied, The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you.'" - Luke 17:20-21
"But the anointing which you have recieved from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." - I John 2:27
"...When God...was pleased to reveal His son in me so that I might preach ...I did not consult any man..." - Galatians 1:15-16
No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more evidence that Jesus existed then any historical figure pretty much right up until Napolean. Given some of that is more likely to be fabricated then sourses for other figures, but the sheer volume is overwhelming to say the least. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I say anything about Jesus not existing? No. All I said was that we're accepting it as a premise for the debate. Don't put words in my mouth. Or text in my posts, as it were.
<b>No we haven't. We're accepting as a true premise for the basis of our discussion, but that doesn't prove that he was real, nor does it disprove it.</b>
Interestingly, I found <a href='http://jesusishitler.com/' target='_blank'>this</a> when doing research on the subject. Be warned, contains - among other things - foul language. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is more evidence that Jesus existed then any historical figure pretty much right up until Napolean. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I say anything about Jesus not existing? No. All I said was that we're accepting it as a premise for the debate. Don't put words in my mouth. Or text in my posts, as it were. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said that we have not established that he existed. Surely that's the same as saying he's not real, for all intents and purposes.
The link you posted is neither relavent, interesting, nor something you should have come across if you were searching about "who is Jesus". :|
It's factless basis is almost insulting, and any (possible) attempts at humour are poor at best.
Edit: Nested quotes get messy
I've been waiting for an opportunity to post this:<!--QuoteBegin-C. S. Lewis from Mere Christianity+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (C. S. Lewis from Mere Christianity)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I am ready to accept Jesus as the great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Done...
Even today you will find people who claim to talk to the dead, who claim to talk to god, who claim to heal the sick and alleviate you from all that hard earned money you've accumulated. There's people making the most silly claims and yet they are believed by hundreds of thousands.
The only argument FOR Jesus that I have heard is the rather unconvincing, "oh yeah, but those other fakers didn't become the foundation for a religion and didn't become some of the most widely known people of all time so obviously that says something about the quality of their work". Well, if you don't see what's wrong with that, the second most sold book of all time is "quotations from chairman Mao Tse-tung", for hundreds of years the Earth was not only believed to be flat, everything to be made out of a combination of the four "elements" fire, water, earth and air, it was accepted as TRUTH . Popularity doesn't mean a damned thing, truth isn't a popularity contest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the way not one person has commented on this. Like Soylent Green I also believe Jesus was a con-artist, the best there has ever been. IMHO he fooled the world to believe he was the son of god. I haven't seen anyone else do this since, therefore my comment of the best con-artist stands.
I believe that he did exist and was a bright very intelligent man. He knew he could manipulate people with his words, and he used that tool. If he actually ended up believing himself that he was the son of god is another story, but I have great difficulty believing that he is the son of god, if god even exist, which I believe it doesn't. I say it for if god does exist i don't believe it would be of physical form.
/me puts on flame-proof jacket
If, on the other hand, you really are interested in it, I suggest you go read a Bible (preferably NIV or ESV, as they are translated so that there aren't inordinately denominational biases in the translations). I think you will discover that Jesus was not a con-artist, and that to think of him as one would be rather ridiculous. It's just not possible that someone would go willingly to their death for a laugh, if they were sane.
So if this was the case, the most likely explanation is that Jesus was a con artist who, like so many after him, once his fame started to spread, fell for his own lies. At first, he simply played his role with skilled dedication and conviction, but as he went ever deeper into his own fabrications, he eventually started being blinded by the faith that his followers put in him, and in the end started to believe his own made-up stories. He died on the cross because he truly believed that he was the son of God and that he was to die for our sins, only to then rise from the grave and take his place to the right of his father. He may not have been sane at this point, but he did not go to his grave "for a laugh". He was mortally afraid, he pleaded with his God to be spared if he could.
This is a possibility that cannot be discounted, basically because there is no way you can prove it false.
The Bible should not be taken as the definite authority in this case. The New Testament was written many years after Jesus' death, and the four evangelists all have their version of the events, sometimes ruling each other out. Unlike the muslims, who believe that the Quran is word-for-word the words of God (Allah), we christians acknowledge that the New Testament was written by men, and as such cannot be viewed as 100% accurate. I do not discount the New Testament, but I maintain that it should not be taken at face value.
The issue that matters, though, is faith. It is possible that Jesus was a con artist. There is neither enough evidence to prove nor disprove this. It is possible that Jesus was the son of God. There is neither enough evidence to prove nor disprove this. What MATTERS, then, is which of these two versions you place your belief in.