<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Nov 3 2004, 04:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Nov 3 2004, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 3 2004, 02:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 3 2004, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nadagast, I will ask you this question: "If I could disprove every "contradiction" in the Bible, would you then believe in Jesus, in the God of the Bible?" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, I HIGHLY doubt you could disprove every contradiction in the bible. ANY unbiased source will tell you that there are plenty.
Second, even if you did somehow do that, no I would not believe in any religion, because I have plenty of other reasons for not believing in Christianity other than contradictions in the bible. If you somehow cleared up all my qualms with religion in general, then yes I would believe. I have no problem being open minded. I don't see why you do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can stump me then do so. I am not saying I can answer all your questions right away but I can answer them in some sort of a timely fashion.
But, what I meant by my question was, if I cleared all these contradictions up then why shouldn't you believe in the Bible? If you can find no fault in it then that makes it faultless and if the Bible is faultless than Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
That's the point I was hitting on.
As for me, I will admit that Christianity is the most closed-minded of all religions. But, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Religion doesn't save anyone, a relationship with your creator saves you. I have a relationship with my creator, my maker my redeemer and Father, why should I seek anything else?
Likewise when you are hungry you hunger, when you are filled you hunger not, you are satisfied. I have looked at all the facts, I have seeked after the truth and I have found it, why should I continue searching when I am filled?
My faith is challenged at times but it always stands up to every test I've thrown it's way. I seek not but I test continually, I measure things against Christianity and I find nothing that is even close to it.
I hope that makes sense for you.
The Bible says it best, ""Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it." - Matthew 7:14
Tried going through all the posts, but couldn't get past page 6 before growing tired. So, just going to put my opinion on it out there.
Commonly, atheists throw at theists, "Prove to me God exists!", and of course, the theists can't. Then the theists retort with "Prove to me He doesn't exist!" And likewise, us atheists can't.
Thusly, I have to go on what evidence is there provided for me. Through my own firsthand experiences with other people, something I myself have come to know, people are ultimately gullible. It's sad, but its true. Especially with regards to telling them that a certain possibility will act as a safety net for them. People don't like it when you challenge their safety net. I take the bible for what it is, a document in publication, printed by the machinations of man. It's a book with words in it. Like any book, the contents therein can either be based in fact, or based in fiction. The problem with this book is that its contents can't inherently be proven or disproven.
So we're left to come to our own conclusions based on what evidence is left us.
I know that people throughout history have been known to credit the unexplainable to deities and have immediately after accepted those ideas as undeniably true. Lightning being hurled by Zeus from the sky, earthquakes, sudden storms, any kind of natural phenomena for that matter. The shape of the earth. The earth itself being the center of the universe.
All of these things were at some point espoused to have been related to/caused by some sort of divine being(s).
The thing is though, that science has done a lot in the way to discredit these ideas. Science has questioned a great deal of ideas, and proven them to be wrong. Science hasn't discovered the origin of life yet, hasn't proven where we've came from.
But what has religion ever been able to prove as an undeniable truth? I'm sorry, but my money's on science and logic, it's done a lot more for me than postulation about an invisible man in the sky ever has. As I said, I can't prove that God does not exist, but given the track record, based on the evidence provided, I can't logically make myself steer torwards the direction that He does.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thing is though, that science has done a lot in the way to discredit these ideas. Science has questioned a great deal of ideas, and proven them to be wrong. Science hasn't discovered the origin of life yet, hasn't proven where we've came from.
But what has religion ever been able to prove as an undeniable truth? I'm sorry, but my money's on science and logic, it's done a lot more for me than postulation about an invisible man in the sky ever has. As I said, I can't prove that God does not exist, but given the track record, based on the evidence provided, I can't logically make myself steer torwards the direction that He does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, Science has <b>never</b> been able to discredit the Bible. Does anyone remember that "Hittites" business?
Basically, the Bible mentions these people but we had no record of them until recently. We have since discovered that these people did exist.
I agree that Science has disproved alot of religions but it can't disprove Christianity. Never has, never will.
As for religion proving an undeniable truth...
Do you realize we have more of a historical record for Jesus than for George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? Socrates? It's true.
We accept that George Washington was the first President based on the literature we have read and studied as well as stories passed down and eye-witness encounters that were rcorded or passed on in some way. Why is Jesus so controversial?
Some say that it's because he's such a narrow path to life, "There has to be more than one way to heaven." Others say, "He did things that contradict our natural laws." Or, "He was just blown out of proportion."
The fact is, Satan likes all this confusion. He couldn't stop Jesus from saving Mankind but he could stop mankind from saving themselves. He stirs up confusion and trouble in each of our souls to make us question everything. Much like he was portrayed as doing in the beginning of the movie, "The Passion" he spoke to Jesus saying, "No one care bear these mens sins. No one. Not one. Ever. No. Never."
Jesus continued on praying to his father and Satan struck back, "Who is your father? Who are you?"
I still do not completely take it as undeniable proof of existence of God. It's simply not proof. It's a wonderful story, and I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel really good about the lives they lead, and I'm glad that religion is there for them to make them feel good about something.
But I don't need it.
And I can't take what's out there, and take it to mean that the existence of a God is more likely than the non-existence of one. I can't make that leap based on my reasoning and the nature of human beings I see all around me.
Science has given me everything I need. Sunblock, air conditioning, frozen treats, drive-through fast food.
God has never done anything for me. Or if he has, he hasn't made himself apparent in any way shape or form. No evidence other than the works and words of other men does not a compelling argument to me make.
~in reply to off topic recent posts on this thread~
Religion isn't against science or visa versa. In fact they are totally disjuncted. Some time science can prove religious historical stories are true or false but that is totally unrealted.
Religion is all about what and how you believe. Belief and religion are synonymous. It is totally subjective and deals with the unknown. Science is all about totally objective observations which can lead to knowledge of how things work and ability to predict outcomes and use the knowledge for applications.
Science <img src='http://en.wikipedia.org/math/5addb134385e47a2efa484f6306e75a1.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Religion (that's a boolean disjunction symbol, not a 'V' character)
~on topic~
I believe Jesus may have not been human. I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists. I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend. I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm. I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes. I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
<!--QuoteBegin-xioutlawix+Nov 3 2004, 05:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Nov 3 2004, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still do not completely take it as undeniable proof of existence of God. It's simply not proof. It's a wonderful story, and I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel really good about the lives they lead, and I'm glad that religion is there for them to make them feel good about something.
But I don't need it.
And I can't take what's out there, and take it to mean that the existence of a God is more likely than the non-existence of one. I can't make that leap based on my reasoning and the nature of human beings I see all around me.
Science has given me everything I need. Sunblock, air conditioning, frozen treats, drive-through fast food.
God has never done anything for me. Or if he has, he hasn't made himself apparent in any way shape or form. No evidence other than the works and words of other men does not a compelling argument to me make. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God hasn't done anything for you?
He sent his son for you. Religious Leaders asked Jesus the same thing. They asked for a sign. To see God moving and Jesus said this, "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign and there shall no sign be given but the sign of the prophet Jonas."
Jesus was referring to his death and ressurection, his triumph over death. What more could he do for you? You have a house, no? A personal computer I see or you have access to one via a library or school computer room. You're blessed just to be living in this great country. So don't say God hasn't done anything for you.
Because He loves you, forever, unconditionally. That's something.
I'm not trying to "convert" you I'm just trying to show you what God has done for you. If you don't think God has done anything for you then you clearly aren't looking for it.
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) I believe Jesus may have not been human. 2) I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists. 3) I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend. 4) I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm. 5) I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes. 6) I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
I hope that made sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis? 2) ...What's "the fifth universal force"? Magic? Psychic powers? Lurve? 3) He died for our sins, right? 4) What's the "infinite universe paradigm"? 5)I don't know enough about the history of the Bible to comment, sadly.
I think it's kinda funny that you should come up with this stuff and then tell us that others are manipulating the text to their own ends. What makes you believe all this?
And I'm of the belief that he doesn't exist, and that something that doesn't exist can't have done anything for me.
Telling me that he sent this and has done that but providing no proof is the equivalent of not saying anything at all. See my above statements on my idea of proof.
If I thought there was more evidence to his existence than not, I'd swing over to that side, but as it is, I'm not convinced. So listing off all the wonderful things I have in my life as having come through his grace, ESPECIALLY when there are people in the world who live so much poorer than me, children who are abused and starving and raped daily, people who are killed day in and day out by their own regime or pointless wars, is an insult to my intelligence, and if such a God existed as to deem me worthy of having a comfortable home and personal computer and plenty of food while others who are probably better individuals than myself starve and suffer for no other reason than they're unlucky is also an insult to him as a deity, thinking that I'm God's special little child and some people just aren't. Oh yeah, but I forgot, "He works in mysterious ways."
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Nov 3 2004, 06:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Nov 3 2004, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-x5+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1) I believe Jesus may have not been human. 2) I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists. 3) I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend. 4) I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm. 5) I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes. 6) I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
I hope that made sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis? 2) ...What's "the fifth universal force"? Magic? Psychic powers? Lurve? 3) He died for our sins, right? 4) What's the "infinite universe paradigm"? 5)I don't know enough about the history of the Bible to comment, sadly.
I think it's kinda funny that you should come up with this stuff and then tell us that others are manipulating the text to their own ends. What makes you believe all this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The science that X5 is well aquainted with is a little different then the science the rest of us are used to. You're just going to have to get used to that, or these discussions will most likely never end.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it's kinda funny that you should come up with this stuff and then tell us that others are manipulating the text to their own ends. What makes you believe all this?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BobtheJanitor+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobtheJanitor)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think nuking that or any post in particular is going to fix the problems you bring up. Some of it does need to be accepted. When you go to argue your position, which is what people do in discussions, then you first have to lay your position on the line and that means opening it to criticism and argument from the other side. It's a cold cruel world out there, and more specifically it's a cold cruel world in the discussions forum.
But, I will keep an eye open for posts that don't add anything or actually submit a point of view for discussion and simply consist of someone basically saying 'your religion/politics/belief system sucks, have a nice day.' And they'll get warnings/suspensions/whatever is needed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... Ok then I'll reply to the flamebait while holding back at feeding the troll's insult.
First, your insinuation while (among other things) was totally disjuncted was quite hurtful. So to that my initial response is: f-ck you.
Second, I didn't just "come up with this stuff". It's the compilation of what I believe about who Jesus was from all of my life experiences, observations, and open-minded quests for new knowledge. (as it was the topic of the thread I believe, yes?)
Third, lots of people have made changes to history. In texts arround an important religious figure some things get exagerated for social or political reasons. (Like Kim Il Sung's "miracle birth" or the King James's version of the bible as two random examples) In addition is should be noted that history is often altered and exagerations are made. (for example the winner of the war usually write the history, many exagerations on how many were killed) Now please let's not get into flaming me about saying parts of the bible are exagertaions and somethings have been removed. My only point is I don't so easily take it at face value.
Fourth, I am not here to alter or make a new bible and even if I did start a new religion I would not desire to have one where it is exclusive and forces others to join or else. Even insinuating the I would force my beliefs on others is quite hurtful when I try so hard to get others to be open minded and tollerant of other people's religious beliefs.
Fifth, if you have such a religiously righteous chip on you shoulder that you cannot accept that I believe something differently from you then I'll be glad to take it off and ram it up your arse sideways! I now see how you live up to you alias as you are quite a snide little **** indeed.
Sixth, for your information I went to a Catholic gradeschool and High School, I've studied karate and many eastern philosophies and religions. I'm always open minded to finding new literature to add to my "universal religion." I've participated in many ceremonies of native american and even in masses of Southern Batpist, Othrodox & Reform Jewish ceremonies, sunni & shi'ite Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. The list goes on. I love to explore new relgious material and philosophy. Even if I find the religion to be exclusive (which I feel is a bad thing) I always find something from it. As a matter of fact I'm one the most learned person in various relgious experiences I know. So when ever I see a literal or exclusive attitude it bothers me. All religions have so, so much in common it's amazing. When ever some one asks what religion I follow I say <i>all of them</i>. But I guess one can say I take Christian and Jewish teachings as my morality and interaction inspiration, Islam dedication and love of God as my creed, katate and meditation as my cult, and everything else about balance and the unknown as my code. I add in my understanding of the world with science and science fiction to create an amazingly diverse and complex composite which has become my religion.
Seventh, your connection of thesse two thing is only amusing because you put them otgether when they were unrealted, amazing what not putting an return character after you fifth and final point can do to make stupid (or perhaps rather unobservant) people draw the wrong conclusions.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ~sarcasm~ I'm sorry you didn't read what I wrote. ~sarcasm~ I said, "I believe Jesus <i><b>may</b></i> have not been human." I didn't say he wasn't the son of god. I didn't say he wasn't human. I didn't say he wasn't an alien. Elvis was just a nice flame-like insult. But I really didn't specify what if anything he was other than he was special and I wasn't ruling anything out. Apparently my verbosity outstripped your mental capacity.
Normally I'd love to have a deep philosophical conversation here and explain in detail why I believe what I believe, but what's the point when it will just be flamed and insulted by the close minded righteous individuals such as yourself.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Read: people who look at a book and realize that it's been handed down through people, with their own motives to 'tweak' here or there. If the original points were based on anything other than mythology or word of mouth history in the first place.
And it's interesting to look at a book that 'predicts' future history, thousands of years after the history has come to pass, when christianity is well-known for modifying aspects to win over 'pagan' converts. (Note: five wounds of christ, date that christmas is currently celebrated, date of easter... coincidentally close to the pagan 'oestre' ritual)
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Nov 3 2004, 11:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Nov 3 2004, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Read: people who look at a book and realize that it's been handed down through people, with their own motives to 'tweak' here or there. If the original points were based on anything other than mythology or word of mouth history in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True of the old testimate, but the majority of our new testimate transcripts are either the originals or one of many precice copies of the originals. All dated less then 300 years after the death of Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Note: five wounds of christ, date that christmas is currently celebrated, date of easter... coincidentally close to the pagan 'oestre' ritual)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is acctually a well documented Catholic evangalism method reccommended by saint Augusting in one of his writings. It was a common practice in the early catholic church to meet cultures that were being evangalized too halfway in the middle.
<!--QuoteBegin-kida+Nov 4 2004, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Nov 4 2004, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the answer to all of your problems: God does not care. Wake up, and smell the fresh air. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your idea isn't anything new, the Israelites said the same thing in the Old Testament: "Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'"" - Ezekiel 8:12
But God does see and he does care. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-DarkATi+Nov 4 2004, 01:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkATi @ Nov 4 2004, 01:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kida+Nov 4 2004, 12:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Nov 4 2004, 12:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is the answer to all of your problems: God does not care. Wake up, and smell the fresh air. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your idea isn't anything new, the Israelites said the same thing in the Old Testament: "Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'"" - Ezekiel 8:12
But God does see and he does care. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, not only not new, but very very old.
<!--QuoteBegin-kida+Nov 4 2004, 02:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Nov 4 2004, 02:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tell that to the wall. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It wasn't at all amused.
Well, if the flavouring of my post hurt or offended you, x5, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to have that effect. You're right; my name is fitting. Sometimes I'm more Snidely than I am me.
I wanted to know why you came up with this stuff, since it's pretty unusual. I can see how someone would read the bible, study it for how true it is, and decide that it's true (either completely or in part). I can also see how someone would pick up a bible and decide that it's complete nonsense, or a book of fables. I guess I can also see how it's a primitve way of explaining things that people couldn't possibly understand at that time, which is what I guess you believe.
Let's start again, with a blank slate. Tell us in more depth what you believe Jesus could have been, what this "fifth universal power" is, etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-AlienCow!+Nov 4 2004, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AlienCow! @ Nov 4 2004, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus did not exist. If anyone similar to him existed, he was not the son of a god.
Its a made up story to give people hope and morals and all that generally positive malarkey.
No offence to anyone... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again I say to you that we have more of a historical record for Jesus than for any other person in History.
Ok, I'll attmept to read the whole thread now, because at the moment I'm thinking where the heck is your evidence? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT: Too tired, cant be bothered, will do tomorrow. Unless someone spells it out for me.
In essence, what's being said Aliencow is that the plethora of of subject matter should be taken as proof of existence.
I guess since there's voluminous quantities of material on vampires and zombies I'll take to believing in them as well.
You're also missing out on big batches of circular reasoning, to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true.
It's the same unsubstantiated stuff that's plauged every forum for some time now. The atheists want material proof, the theists have nothing to offer but 'i feel it in my bones! and the bible says so!'
That reasoning is not quite circular... this would be more correct:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true, and the bible says that it is the word of god, so the bible is teh word of god.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-xioutlawix+Nov 4 2004, 03:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Nov 4 2004, 03:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In essence, what's being said Aliencow is that the plethora of of subject matter should be taken as proof of existence.
I guess since there's voluminous quantities of material on vampires and zombies I'll take to believing in them as well.
You're also missing out on big batches of circular reasoning, to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true.
It's the same unsubstantiated stuff that's plauged every forum for some time now. The atheists want material proof, the theists have nothing to offer but 'i feel it in my bones! and the bible says so!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There are also roman records about Jesus's execution, not to mention it doesn't follow the pattern of any fictional character ever created. The accounts of Jesus come from multiple sourses around the same generation, which was very soon after his death, and at least one of them was written with the express intent of being a history text for later generations. Not only that but litterally hundreds of people were mardyered for thier belife in Jesus, many of which were most likely eye whitnesses to his later life, and quite possibly eye whitnesses to him being alive after he died on the cross.
That being said I have yet to hear of someone willingly accepting death for thier belife in dracula.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm very confident that around that time there probably was someone parading around as the messiah.The same way we have all sorts of loonies pretending to be all sorts of things throughout history. I just think he happened to be very convincing at a time when people were largely naive and prone to accepting the possibility of the unknown things of the world as being the product of divine intervention.
Yeah, don't forget all the cults we have nowadays where people give up all their money and/or commit suicide and such. Just because they beleived it doesn't mean its true.
<!--QuoteBegin-xioutlawix+Nov 4 2004, 05:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Nov 4 2004, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh don't get me wrong, I'm very confident that around that time there probably was someone parading around as the messiah.The same way we have all sorts of loonies pretending to be all sorts of things throughout history. I just think he happened to be very convincing at a time when people were largely naive and prone to accepting the possibility of the unknown things of the world as being the product of divine intervention. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're a fool if you believe Jesus decieved thousands of <b>intelligent</b> people.
Sorry to be so harsh but your argument is weak.
How did Jesus walk on water? HoverCraft?
How did Jesus appear to hundreds of men AFTER his death. These people saw Jesus die, they saw his dead body, pierced with a spear and they SAW him ALIVE after his death.
I suppose he had a double? Used holographic technology?
Come now. If your argument TRULY IS that Jesus decieved all these people then you're the one that has been decieved.
Comments
First, I HIGHLY doubt you could disprove every contradiction in the bible. ANY unbiased source will tell you that there are plenty.
Second, even if you did somehow do that, no I would not believe in any religion, because I have plenty of other reasons for not believing in Christianity other than contradictions in the bible. If you somehow cleared up all my qualms with religion in general, then yes I would believe. I have no problem being open minded. I don't see why you do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can stump me then do so. I am not saying I can answer all your questions right away but I can answer them in some sort of a timely fashion.
But, what I meant by my question was, if I cleared all these contradictions up then why shouldn't you believe in the Bible? If you can find no fault in it then that makes it faultless and if the Bible is faultless than Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
That's the point I was hitting on.
As for me, I will admit that Christianity is the most closed-minded of all religions. But, I've said it before and I'll say it again, Religion doesn't save anyone, a relationship with your creator saves you. I have a relationship with my creator, my maker my redeemer and Father, why should I seek anything else?
Likewise when you are hungry you hunger, when you are filled you hunger not, you are satisfied. I have looked at all the facts, I have seeked after the truth and I have found it, why should I continue searching when I am filled?
My faith is challenged at times but it always stands up to every test I've thrown it's way. I seek not but I test continually, I measure things against Christianity and I find nothing that is even close to it.
I hope that makes sense for you.
The Bible says it best, ""Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it." - Matthew 7:14
~ DarkATi
So, just going to put my opinion on it out there.
Commonly, atheists throw at theists, "Prove to me God exists!", and of course, the theists can't. Then the theists retort with "Prove to me He doesn't exist!" And likewise, us atheists can't.
Thusly, I have to go on what evidence is there provided for me. Through my own firsthand experiences with other people, something I myself have come to know, people are ultimately gullible. It's sad, but its true. Especially with regards to telling them that a certain possibility will act as a safety net for them.
People don't like it when you challenge their safety net.
I take the bible for what it is, a document in publication, printed by the machinations of man. It's a book with words in it. Like any book, the contents therein can either be based in fact, or based in fiction. The problem with this book is that its contents can't inherently be proven or disproven.
So we're left to come to our own conclusions based on what evidence is left us.
I know that people throughout history have been known to credit the unexplainable to deities and have immediately after accepted those ideas as undeniably true.
Lightning being hurled by Zeus from the sky, earthquakes, sudden storms, any kind of natural phenomena for that matter. The shape of the earth. The earth itself being the center of the universe.
All of these things were at some point espoused to have been related to/caused by some sort of divine being(s).
The thing is though, that science has done a lot in the way to discredit these ideas. Science has questioned a great deal of ideas, and proven them to be wrong.
Science hasn't discovered the origin of life yet, hasn't proven where we've came from.
But what has religion ever been able to prove as an undeniable truth? I'm sorry, but my money's on science and logic, it's done a lot more for me than postulation about an invisible man in the sky ever has. As I said, I can't prove that God does not exist, but given the track record, based on the evidence provided, I can't logically make myself steer torwards the direction that He does.
Science hasn't discovered the origin of life yet, hasn't proven where we've came from.
But what has religion ever been able to prove as an undeniable truth? I'm sorry, but my money's on science and logic, it's done a lot more for me than postulation about an invisible man in the sky ever has. As I said, I can't prove that God does not exist, but given the track record, based on the evidence provided, I can't logically make myself steer torwards the direction that He does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, Science has <b>never</b> been able to discredit the Bible. Does anyone remember that "Hittites" business?
Basically, the Bible mentions these people but we had no record of them until recently. We have since discovered that these people did exist.
I agree that Science has disproved alot of religions but it can't disprove Christianity. Never has, never will.
As for religion proving an undeniable truth...
Do you realize we have more of a historical record for Jesus than for George Washington? Abraham Lincoln? Socrates? It's true.
We accept that George Washington was the first President based on the literature we have read and studied as well as stories passed down and eye-witness encounters that were rcorded or passed on in some way. Why is Jesus so controversial?
Some say that it's because he's such a narrow path to life, "There has to be more than one way to heaven." Others say, "He did things that contradict our natural laws." Or, "He was just blown out of proportion."
The fact is, Satan likes all this confusion. He couldn't stop Jesus from saving Mankind but he could stop mankind from saving themselves. He stirs up confusion and trouble in each of our souls to make us question everything. Much like he was portrayed as doing in the beginning of the movie, "The Passion" he spoke to Jesus saying, "No one care bear these mens sins. No one. Not one. Ever. No. Never."
Jesus continued on praying to his father and Satan struck back, "Who is your father? Who are you?"
But Jesus wasn't buyin' it. Do you?
~ DarkATi
It's simply not proof. It's a wonderful story, and I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel really good about the lives they lead, and I'm glad that religion is there for them to make them feel good about something.
But I don't need it.
And I can't take what's out there, and take it to mean that the existence of a God is more likely than the non-existence of one. I can't make that leap based on my reasoning and the nature of human beings I see all around me.
Science has given me everything I need. Sunblock, air conditioning, frozen treats, drive-through fast food.
God has never done anything for me.
Or if he has, he hasn't made himself apparent in any way shape or form.
No evidence other than the works and words of other men does not a compelling argument to me make.
Religion isn't against science or visa versa. In fact they are totally disjuncted. Some time science can prove religious historical stories are true or false but that is totally unrealted.
Religion is all about what and how you believe. Belief and religion are synonymous. It is totally subjective and deals with the unknown.
Science is all about totally objective observations which can lead to knowledge of how things work and ability to predict outcomes and use the knowledge for applications.
Science <img src='http://en.wikipedia.org/math/5addb134385e47a2efa484f6306e75a1.png' border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Religion
(that's a boolean disjunction symbol, not a 'V' character)
~on topic~
I believe Jesus may have not been human.
I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists.
I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend.
I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm.
I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes.
I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
I hope that made sense.
It's simply not proof. It's a wonderful story, and I'm sure it makes a lot of people feel really good about the lives they lead, and I'm glad that religion is there for them to make them feel good about something.
But I don't need it.
And I can't take what's out there, and take it to mean that the existence of a God is more likely than the non-existence of one. I can't make that leap based on my reasoning and the nature of human beings I see all around me.
Science has given me everything I need. Sunblock, air conditioning, frozen treats, drive-through fast food.
God has never done anything for me.
Or if he has, he hasn't made himself apparent in any way shape or form.
No evidence other than the works and words of other men does not a compelling argument to me make. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
God hasn't done anything for you?
He sent his son for you. Religious Leaders asked Jesus the same thing. They asked for a sign. To see God moving and Jesus said this, "But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign and there shall no sign be given but the sign of the prophet Jonas."
Jesus was referring to his death and ressurection, his triumph over death. What more could he do for you? You have a house, no? A personal computer I see or you have access to one via a library or school computer room. You're blessed just to be living in this great country. So don't say God hasn't done anything for you.
Because He loves you, forever, unconditionally. That's something.
I'm not trying to "convert" you I'm just trying to show you what God has done for you. If you don't think God has done anything for you then you clearly aren't looking for it.
~ DarkATi
2) I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists.
3) I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend.
4) I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm.
5) I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes.
6) I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
I hope that made sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis?
2) ...What's "the fifth universal force"? Magic? Psychic powers? Lurve?
3) He died for our sins, right?
4) What's the "infinite universe paradigm"?
5)I don't know enough about the history of the Bible to comment, sadly.
I think it's kinda funny that you should come up with this stuff and then tell us that others are manipulating the text to their own ends. What makes you believe all this?
Telling me that he sent this and has done that but providing no proof is the equivalent of not saying anything at all. See my above statements on my idea of proof.
If I thought there was more evidence to his existence than not, I'd swing over to that side, but as it is, I'm not convinced. So listing off all the wonderful things I have in my life as having come through his grace, ESPECIALLY when there are people in the world who live so much poorer than me, children who are abused and starving and raped daily, people who are killed day in and day out by their own regime or pointless wars, is an insult to my intelligence, and if such a God existed as to deem me worthy of having a comfortable home and personal computer and plenty of food while others who are probably better individuals than myself starve and suffer for no other reason than they're unlucky is also an insult to him as a deity, thinking that I'm God's special little child and some people just aren't.
Oh yeah, but I forgot, "He works in mysterious ways."
2) I believe he had contol over the fifth universal force ina continoum where it barely exists.
3) I believe he did something to have enabled all of us to ascend.
4) I believe he was extra special, perhaps the most important character in the infinite universe paradigm.
5) I believe that much of history of Jesus was true but it is impossible to know entirely because people like to change history and religious texts to suit their purposes.
6) I also believe that many of those who claim to follow Jesus are in fact totally disregarding his teachings. (this goes for everyone who tries to say their way is the only way) They take the literal words which have been changed by humans and ignore the meaning, which is in fact what really matters.
I hope that made sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis?
2) ...What's "the fifth universal force"? Magic? Psychic powers? Lurve?
3) He died for our sins, right?
4) What's the "infinite universe paradigm"?
5)I don't know enough about the history of the Bible to comment, sadly.
I think it's kinda funny that you should come up with this stuff and then tell us that others are manipulating the text to their own ends. What makes you believe all this? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The science that X5 is well aquainted with is a little different then the science the rest of us are used to. You're just going to have to get used to that, or these discussions will most likely never end.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobtheJanitor+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobtheJanitor)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think nuking that or any post in particular is going to fix the problems you bring up. Some of it does need to be accepted. When you go to argue your position, which is what people do in discussions, then you first have to lay your position on the line and that means opening it to criticism and argument from the other side. It's a cold cruel world out there, and more specifically it's a cold cruel world in the discussions forum.
But, I will keep an eye open for posts that don't add anything or actually submit a point of view for discussion and simply consist of someone basically saying 'your religion/politics/belief system sucks, have a nice day.' And they'll get warnings/suspensions/whatever is needed. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... Ok then I'll reply to the flamebait while holding back at feeding the troll's insult.
First, your insinuation while (among other things) was totally disjuncted was quite hurtful. So to that my initial response is: f-ck you.
Second, I didn't just "come up with this stuff". It's the compilation of what I believe about who Jesus was from all of my life experiences, observations, and open-minded quests for new knowledge. (as it was the topic of the thread I believe, yes?)
Third, lots of people have made changes to history. In texts arround an important religious figure some things get exagerated for social or political reasons. (Like Kim Il Sung's "miracle birth" or the King James's version of the bible as two random examples) In addition is should be noted that history is often altered and exagerations are made. (for example the winner of the war usually write the history, many exagerations on how many were killed) Now please let's not get into flaming me about saying parts of the bible are exagertaions and somethings have been removed. My only point is I don't so easily take it at face value.
Fourth, I am not here to alter or make a new bible and even if I did start a new religion I would not desire to have one where it is exclusive and forces others to join or else. Even insinuating the I would force my beliefs on others is quite hurtful when I try so hard to get others to be open minded and tollerant of other people's religious beliefs.
Fifth, if you have such a religiously righteous chip on you shoulder that you cannot accept that I believe something differently from you then I'll be glad to take it off and ram it up your arse sideways! I now see how you live up to you alias as you are quite a snide little **** indeed.
Sixth, for your information I went to a Catholic gradeschool and High School, I've studied karate and many eastern philosophies and religions. I'm always open minded to finding new literature to add to my "universal religion." I've participated in many ceremonies of native american and even in masses of Southern Batpist, Othrodox & Reform Jewish ceremonies, sunni & shi'ite Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. The list goes on. I love to explore new relgious material and philosophy. Even if I find the religion to be exclusive (which I feel is a bad thing) I always find something from it. As a matter of fact I'm one the most learned person in various relgious experiences I know. So when ever I see a literal or exclusive attitude it bothers me. All religions have so, so much in common it's amazing. When ever some one asks what religion I follow I say <i>all of them</i>. But I guess one can say I take Christian and Jewish teachings as my morality and interaction inspiration, Islam dedication and love of God as my creed, katate and meditation as my cult, and everything else about balance and the unknown as my code. I add in my understanding of the world with science and science fiction to create an amazingly diverse and complex composite which has become my religion.
Seventh, your connection of thesse two thing is only amusing because you put them otgether when they were unrealted, amazing what not putting an return character after you fifth and final point can do to make stupid (or perhaps rather unobservant) people draw the wrong conclusions.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What was Jesus if he wasn't the son of God or a human? An alien? Elvis?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
~sarcasm~ I'm sorry you didn't read what I wrote. ~sarcasm~ I said, "I believe Jesus <i><b>may</b></i> have not been human." I didn't say he wasn't the son of god. I didn't say he wasn't human. I didn't say he wasn't an alien. Elvis was just a nice flame-like insult. But I really didn't specify what if anything he was other than he was special and I wasn't ruling anything out. Apparently my verbosity outstripped your mental capacity.
Normally I'd love to have a deep philosophical conversation here and explain in detail why I believe what I believe, but what's the point when it will just be flamed and insulted by the close minded righteous individuals such as yourself.
~ DarkATi
And it's interesting to look at a book that 'predicts' future history, thousands of years after the history has come to pass, when christianity is well-known for modifying aspects to win over 'pagan' converts. (Note: five wounds of christ, date that christmas is currently celebrated, date of easter... coincidentally close to the pagan 'oestre' ritual)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True of the old testimate, but the majority of our new testimate transcripts are either the originals or one of many precice copies of the originals. All dated less then 300 years after the death of Christ.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Note: five wounds of christ, date that christmas is currently celebrated, date of easter... coincidentally close to the pagan 'oestre' ritual)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is acctually a well documented Catholic evangalism method reccommended by saint Augusting in one of his writings. It was a common practice in the early catholic church to meet cultures that were being evangalized too halfway in the middle.
[edit] broken quotes
Your idea isn't anything new, the Israelites said the same thing in the Old Testament: "Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'"" - Ezekiel 8:12
But God does see and he does care. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi
Your idea isn't anything new, the Israelites said the same thing in the Old Testament: "Then he said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the dark, every man in his room of pictures? For they say, 'The LORD does not see us, the LORD has forsaken the land.'"" - Ezekiel 8:12
But God does see and he does care. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
~ DarkATi <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, not only not new, but very very old.
It wasn't at all amused.
user posted image <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go away.
I wanted to know why you came up with this stuff, since it's pretty unusual. I can see how someone would read the bible, study it for how true it is, and decide that it's true (either completely or in part). I can also see how someone would pick up a bible and decide that it's complete nonsense, or a book of fables. I guess I can also see how it's a primitve way of explaining things that people couldn't possibly understand at that time, which is what I guess you believe.
Let's start again, with a blank slate. Tell us in more depth what you believe Jesus could have been, what this "fifth universal power" is, etc.
Its a made up story to give people hope and morals and all that generally positive malarkey.
No offence to anyone...
Its a made up story to give people hope and morals and all that generally positive malarkey.
No offence to anyone... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again I say to you that we have more of a historical record for Jesus than for any other person in History.
~ DarkATi
EDIT: Too tired, cant be bothered, will do tomorrow. Unless someone spells it out for me.
I guess since there's voluminous quantities of material on vampires and zombies I'll take to believing in them as well.
You're also missing out on big batches of circular reasoning, to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true.
It's the same unsubstantiated stuff that's plauged every forum for some time now. The atheists want material proof, the theists have nothing to offer but 'i feel it in my bones! and the bible says so!'
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true, and the bible says that it is the word of god, so the bible is teh word of god.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess since there's voluminous quantities of material on vampires and zombies I'll take to believing in them as well.
You're also missing out on big batches of circular reasoning, to the effect of the bible is the word of God, and God never lies, so everything in the bible must be true.
It's the same unsubstantiated stuff that's plauged every forum for some time now. The atheists want material proof, the theists have nothing to offer but 'i feel it in my bones! and the bible says so!' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are also roman records about Jesus's execution, not to mention it doesn't follow the pattern of any fictional character ever created. The accounts of Jesus come from multiple sourses around the same generation, which was very soon after his death, and at least one of them was written with the express intent of being a history text for later generations. Not only that but litterally hundreds of people were mardyered for thier belife in Jesus, many of which were most likely eye whitnesses to his later life, and quite possibly eye whitnesses to him being alive after he died on the cross.
That being said I have yet to hear of someone willingly accepting death for thier belife in dracula.
I just think he happened to be very convincing at a time when people were largely naive and prone to accepting the possibility of the unknown things of the world as being the product of divine intervention.
I just think he happened to be very convincing at a time when people were largely naive and prone to accepting the possibility of the unknown things of the world as being the product of divine intervention. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're a fool if you believe Jesus decieved thousands of <b>intelligent</b> people.
Sorry to be so harsh but your argument is weak.
How did Jesus walk on water? HoverCraft?
How did Jesus appear to hundreds of men AFTER his death. These people saw Jesus die, they saw his dead body, pierced with a spear and they SAW him ALIVE after his death.
I suppose he had a double? Used holographic technology?
Come now. If your argument TRULY IS that Jesus decieved all these people then you're the one that has been decieved.
~ DarkATi