CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
edited March 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 13 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
(Exchange Cpt. Kirk by Picard if you wish; hating Shatner with a burning passion, I'll use him for this example.)
Cpt.Kirk standing on the bridge; the main screen shows the Imperial Star Destroyer. Some ensign: "Target acquired, sir." *Slowly growing deep hum.* Cpt.Kirk: "Good. Phaser banks and torpedoes - fi - *choke* *gurgle*" *Kirk is being lifted off the ground, clutching his neck.* Cpt.Kirk: *Further gurgling until his head sags to the side.* *The limp body sags to the floor.* Spock: "Interesting." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL
Well, I did some rough calculations on how awesome the turbolasers are on the star destroyers (regular ones, not heavy ones) based on rough numbers from that star trek vs star wars site... and oh-em-gee. The numbers are staggering.
It's freaking ridiculous. The turbolasers can't be a purely EM weapon (i.e. laser, or other electromagnetic pulse), since the gun has recoil that far exceeds what an EM pulse of that energy could produce. But even if it were a straight projectile gun, the turbolaser would have to shoot a shell of over 10^4 kg per shot (and that's being conservative, i came up with a range of 10^4 to 10^9 kg...ridiculous). That's like firing anything between a mack truck and a ship (like a destroyer or cruiser) every shot! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> Don't even get me started on the Death Star laser.
Anyway, the point is...I don't think the Enterprise could survive a mack truck crashing into it at like, 10-100 kilometers/second (based on the movie footage, this is how fast i estimated them going). Not to mention a whole fleet of mack trucks.
Picard: Red Alert! Raise shields! Ryker: Sir, we can't survive a shot, I suggest that we take evasive actions and flee. (Star Destroyer turns on its tractor beams) Worf: Oh ****. Data: Sensors indicate that we are screwed. Geordi: If we could reverse the polarity of the transporters and beaming ourselves into space, we might be able to escape Vader's torture chambers! Picard: But won't we die? Random ensign: *choke* (random ensign is lifted in the air, grabbing at his neck, and dies) Picard: Never mind, make it so. Geordi: I'll need 3 hours, captain! Picard: You have 10 seconds. (The entire crew of the Enterprise beams itself into outer space, and promptly die from explosive decompression, rather than face imprisonment by the Imperial Navy).
<!--QuoteBegin-Gadzuko+Mar 12 2004, 04:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gadzuko @ Mar 12 2004, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Pffft. Whip out the Super Star Destroyer on the Enterprise's behind, it'll be dead before the crew can hurl themselves across the bridge in a shower of sparks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL!! And it's so true too! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited March 2004
Death Star vs Borg...
"Resistance is futile, we can adapt to anything after your first shot...."
"Who the hell said we were going to fire <i>twice?</i>"
*KA-BLAM!!!!!!!!!*
EDIT : Having played pretty much every Wing Commander (And Xwing, and TIE Fighter, and XvT, oh my God I'm sad aren't I?) to death, an ISD would pwn the Concordia, if nothing lse because if you check, the Concordia is <b>TINY</b> compared to the ISD.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Mar 13 2004, 03:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Mar 13 2004, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Cleaned up a little because I highly enjoyed the thread and refuse to let it crumble under a single stupid post.
As for my opinion, imagine the following scene:
(Exchange Cpt. Kirk by Picard if you wish; hating Shatner with a burning passion, I'll use him for this example.)
Cpt.Kirk standing on the bridge; the main screen shows the Imperial Star Destroyer. Some ensign: "Target acquired, sir." *Slowly growing deep hum.* Cpt.Kirk: "Good. Phaser banks and torpedoes - fi - *choke* *gurgle*" *Kirk is being lifted off the ground, clutching his neck.* Cpt.Kirk: *Further gurgling until his head sags to the side.* *The limp body sags to the floor.* Spock: "Interesting." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Must... resist... nerd... urges. Must... stop... talking... like.. William Shatner!
*Fails*
SPOCK WOULD NEVER SAY "INTERESTING!"
ITS "FASCINATING", YOU FOOL! <b><i>FASCINATING!!</i></b>
Speaking of Star Trek, you know the jacket Micheal Collins wore in the scene with V'eger from <i>Star Trek: The Motion Picture</i>? Well, its hanging on the door in my room, I'm looking at it as I type.
<!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EDIT : Having played pretty much every Wing Commander (And Xwing, and TIE Fighter, and XvT, oh my God I'm sad aren't I?) to death, an ISD would pwn the Concordia, if nothing lse because if you check, the Concordia is <b>TINY</b> compared to the ISD. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
Ha. Maybe not! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD. 1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles. 2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields. 3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters, they're better shielded, their pilots are better trained, and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly. 4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EDIT : Having played pretty much every Wing Commander (And Xwing, and TIE Fighter, and XvT, oh my God I'm sad aren't I?) to death, an ISD would pwn the Concordia, if nothing lse because if you check, the Concordia is <b>TINY</b> compared to the ISD. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
Ha. Maybe not! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->nitpick, thats 1.6km for the ISD. The ISD is 1.6 times as long as the <i>Concordia</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD. 1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles. 2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Won't do much good if you're outranged. Star Wars ships engage at several hundred kilometers. And then there is the thick armoured cladding, which has been shown to be good at surviving . Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can. <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims. <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded. <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->their pilots are better trained,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Possible, given that I know nothing at all about Wing Commander <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?.
Finally on fighters, How many fighters and attack craft does the <i>Concordia</i> have? Even if you have technical superiority, the numerical superiority of Imperial craft may prevent the attack craft from attacking. And then you have to show that they are an actual threat.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes... And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when: <!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->whoa there, let's stop the flaming; star trek tries to make things realistic,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Myths/Myths_ST.html#Realism' target='_blank'>Nope.</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but let's face it: it's sci-fi, it doesn't have to be realistic. We've had many discussions about the difference between suspension of disbelief and realism. What about NS? Is it inferior to, say, Day of Defeat because "OMG IT DOESN'T HAVE NRG FOR JUMPING!!!11oneone TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE AND UNREALISTIC!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->As long as its good, consistant sci-fi, they can make it as unrealistic as they like (Point singularity weapons? Ok, I can live with them. Computers that simulate universes in their spare time? Sure, why not. The ability to call up energy discharges in the order of exotons? Whoa... kinda cool.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee +Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* and you know what Star Wars has that Star Trek doesn't? Totally BADASS LASERS that blow up planets!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You think thats powerful? Try the Culture. If it isn't the fact that typical battles last fractions of seconds, its the way effectors can subvert technology easily knife missles compressed antimatter, and Gridfire. Gridfire makes the turbolasers on an ISD look like a nerf gun...
<!--QuoteBegin-X_Stickman+Mar 13 2004, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Mar 13 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Red Dwarf could take on Star Wars and Star Trek COMBINED because they have the luck virus. Lister could take it, throw a rock out of the window and it'd bounce off the critical points of ALL the ships and blow them all up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> too true.
In the same manner The Heart of Gold with its infinate improbablity drive could beat SW and ST. Its a bit hard to fight when you're a sperm whale or a bowl of petunias falling towards the nearest heavenly body...
[O-T brabble] You know what I'd <i>really</i> like to see? The effect of some Soviet war-grade hacking tools as decipicted in <a href='http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunk/burning_chrome.shtml' target='_blank'>Burning Chrome</a> (last story) on the Enterprises main computer... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> [/O-T brabble]
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill Door+Mar 14 2004, 01:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Mar 14 2004, 01:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-X_Stickman+Mar 13 2004, 05:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (X_Stickman @ Mar 13 2004, 05:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And Red Dwarf could take on Star Wars and Star Trek COMBINED because they have the luck virus. Lister could take it, throw a rock out of the window and it'd bounce off the critical points of ALL the ships and blow them all up. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> too true.
In the same manner The Heart of Gold with its infinate improbablity drive could beat SW and ST. Its a bit hard to fight when you're a sperm whale or a bowl of petunias falling towards the nearest heavenly body... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Too bad calculating the exact improbability of that happening takes longer than firing the Vorlon Planet Killer's main weapon.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill Door+Mar 14 2004, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Mar 14 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Shockwave+Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Mar 14 2004, 04:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> EDIT : Having played pretty much every Wing Commander (And Xwing, and TIE Fighter, and XvT, oh my God I'm sad aren't I?) to death, an ISD would pwn the Concordia, if nothing lse because if you check, the Concordia is <b>TINY</b> compared to the ISD. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->nitpick, thats 1.6km for the ISD. The ISD is 1.6 times as long as the <i>Concordia</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it's longer. My point is simply that the Concordia isn't tiny by comparison.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD. 1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles. 2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Won't do much good if you're outranged. Star Wars ships engage at several hundred kilometers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The phase transit and the antimatter guns have at least the range of KDY turbolasers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And then there is the thick armoured cladding, which has been shown to be good at surviving . Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they can. They'd be pretty silly shields if they couldn't.
By the way, the shielding on WC starfighters is different from on capital ships, and it behaves differently to shields on, say, the X-Wing. Capital shield phase shields can stop nearly anything, as I mentioned earlier. Starfighter shields are actually pretty weak (as shields go), but they recharge very fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More guns which charge faster and do more damage. Most of the fighters have four, closely grouped weapons. The heavier ships have very powerful turrets. I can't provide you with meaningful numbers (there are meaningless ones available; they refer to depth of armour penetration, which would then make it a question of how tough the actual armour is per cm), but it's kind of likely that four weapons are going to be more powerful than two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm aware that some TIEs are shielded, but the vast majority are cannon fodder. The shields on, say, an Assault Gunboat can take far more hits than Sabre. However, the Sabre's shields recharge far faster (a matter of seconds).
No, a Sabre probably couldn't survive multiple turbolaser hits. The fact is, the star destroyer has to be able to hit it first ;). I'm pretty sure it could take a hit or two, which would deplete the shields, it would have to back off for about six seconds and then the shields would be back up. Wing Commander fighters rely on agility rather than thick shields.
But it depends on the fighter. A Broadsword bomber is built like a tank, and has sheilds as thick as, say, a B-Wing. I don't know if you've ever flown one of those, but it's like flying a tank :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->their pilots are better trained,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Possible, given that I know nothing at all about Wing Commander<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Empire is renowned for the inadequate pilot training. Confederation cadets are trained pretty much like Airforce pilots are today (as far as I'm aware).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does, but again capship shields work differently from fighter shields. Torpedoes take 20 seconds to analyse the phase pattern of capship shields and lock on, and can't be used against starfighters (you wouldn't want to, anyway).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally on fighters, How many fighters and attack craft does the <i>Concordia</i> have? Even if you have technical superiority, the numerical superiority of Imperial craft may prevent the attack craft from attacking. And then you have to show that they are an actual threat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know exactly, but I know it's a lot less than a Star Destroyer. It's probably more comparable to what the Rebels field per ship. I don't think this would be much of a disadvantage, as the vast majority of starfighters a typical Star Destroyer would be carrying would be unshielded and be flown by inferior pilots (and don't give me any "It's a special ISD with only TIE/Ds and Missile Boats, crewed only by handpicked elite mercenaries". Standard, average loadout). Yes, a very skilled TIE/In pilot could take out a green Rapier pilot. That's why they don't give green pilots Rapiers. You've played X-Wing, right? The TIEs die like they're being poured into a meat grinder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes... And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when: <!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a little unsure about this myself. It basically comes down to a Wing Commander starfighter called the Morningstar, which carries what is described as a tactical nuclear missile. You're able to use this missile on phase shielded stuff, with no lock time.
To be honest, I don't know why they developed torpedoes if they've got that kind of hardware lying around. But I can say with reasonable confidence that a proton torpedo, if it does in fact have a nuclear warhead in it, is not in the same scale as a Mace missile (er... that's the Morningstar's nuke). There's no blinding flash and huge explosion when a proton torpedo hits, and there is with a Mace. You could fire a Mace into a cluster of starfighters and it'd utterly wipe them out - you can't do that with a proton torpedo. I'm going on the visual evidence in the games, here (I'm a gamer geek, not a sci-fi geek :P)
...and I'm exhausted and going to bed, now. If you're at all interested, the data's available online <a href='http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2confed.shtml' target='_blank'>here</a>. If the details on the Concordia are off slightly, it's because I got them from the paper WC2 manual.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
heh u want big ships?
Imperial Super Star destroyer vs Mon Calmary Flagship (The rebel Alliance's Flagship, not the standard mon calmari crusiers, this one is over 3 kilometers long,)
vs Homeworld 2's Sajuuk<=== Huge monster ship with huge monster cannon) vs that goliath ship from Frespace 2. in an all out 4 way slug fest.
===================================
But seriosuly people I think that Star wars /star trek seems to "different" to make these "who would win" comparisons.
So lets compair things of similiar technology. etc
heh the Higara or the Vaygr battle crusiers vs star destroyers would be an evenly matched battle Id like to see.
Or Babylon 5 Star Furies vs Imperial TIE Interceptors would be evenly matched.
In that 4 way slug fest, the Mon Cal ship would go down first, as its the smallest by several kilometers at least. Next the SSD would go down, as its shields and hull could no way take the energy from the Sajuuk's and the huge ship from Freespace 2 beam weapons (do you mean the human one or the alien's ship. I can't remember their names anymore). It would be cored easily it one opening volley. If its the human ship, then the Sajuuk would then win easily. If its the alien huge ship, then it would be close, as your talking two ancient races duking it out for supremacy.
Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when your put in a ship which is basically paper mache with guns, you make a mistake and your dead. The survival rate for TIE pilots starts low, gets lower over a few engagements, and then increases dramatically, as you have to be damn good to last that long in a TIE fighter.
Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In that 4 way slug fest, the Mon Cal ship would go down first, as its the smallest by several kilometers at least. Next the SSD would go down, as its shields and hull could no way take the energy from the Sajuuk's and the huge ship from Freespace 2 beam weapons (do you mean the human one or the alien's ship. I can't remember their names anymore).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Really? got any numbers to back that up?
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would be cored easily it one opening volley. If its the human ship, then the Sajuuk would then win easily. If its the alien huge ship, then it would be close, as your talking two ancient races duking it out for supremacy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->How old? The old Republic lasted 25000 years, and Star Wars has had FTL flight for longer than that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when your put in a ship which is basically paper mache with guns, you make a mistake and your dead. The survival rate for TIE pilots starts low, gets lower over a few engagements, and then increases dramatically, as you have to be damn good to last that long in a TIE fighter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Papier mache to the SW guns certainly. But not nesiccarly papier mache when compared to other universes guns.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. Whatever. Do Starfuries have inertial dampers? No. TIE's do, and ones capable of allowing them to survive thousands of gees of linear acceleration. The Starfury is going to have a very hard time hitting a ship which can easily create huge amounts of relative velocity.
In addition, the TIE's have off axis aiming ability and 1kT lasers. The only way the Star Fury is going to win is the TIE pilot serously messing up.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Bill Door+Mar 14 2004, 12:50 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Mar 14 2004, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM] It would be cored easily it one opening volley. If its the human ship, then the Sajuuk would then win easily. If its the alien huge ship, then it would be close, as your talking two ancient races duking it out for supremacy.[/QUOTE]How old? The old Republic lasted 25000 years, and Star Wars has had FTL flight for longer than that.
[QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM]Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when [QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM]Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.[/QUOTE] Yeah. Whatever. Do Starfuries have inertial dampers? No. TIE's do, and ones capable of allowing them to survive thousands of gees of linear acceleration. The Starfury is going to have a very hard time hitting a ship which can easily create huge amounts of relative velocity.
In addition, the TIE's have off axis aiming ability and 1kT lasers. The only way the Star Fury is going to win is the TIE pilot serously messing up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Then again can a TIE rotate around its own axis like a star Fury can? no?
id still vote for the TIE though.
Although star trek and star wars differ with the B5 series and the NEW battle Star Galactica in that the later require and use multi positioning thrusters on there ships so that they can do crazy stuff like flip there ship around while still maintaining forward movment and veloctiy.
maybe I should have compaired starfurys to the Colonial Viper MK2s
wow we are all <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> and it so fun! eee
Whoever mentioned "Culture" Warships is on the money!
I bet the R.O.U (Killing Time?) in Excession that took on the 128+ (How many did it take out? The engagement time was measured in NANOSECONDS!) ships from pittance ship store could waste a sizeable % of any massed universe fleet sent against it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bill Door+Mar 14 2004, 06:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bill Door @ Mar 14 2004, 06:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->nitpick, thats 1.6km for the ISD. The ISD is 1.6 times as long as the <i>Concordia</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course it's longer. My point is simply that the Concordia isn't tiny by comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yep, but the ISD has a volume of 9E7 m³. Unless the Concordia is wider and taller than the ISD, then the volume is going to be smaller.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they can. They'd be pretty silly shields if they couldn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some universes don't have kinetic shields.
By the way, the shielding on WC starfighters is different from on capital ships, and it behaves differently to shields on, say, the X-Wing. Capital shield phase shields can stop nearly anything, as I mentioned earlier. Starfighter shields are actually pretty weak (as shields go), but they recharge very fast.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> More guns which charge faster and do more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Woo. Nice lack of numbers there. What's to stop me claiming that they can have yeilds of mere tons of TNT? <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the fighters have four, closely grouped weapons. The heavier ships have very powerful turrets. I can't provide you with meaningful numbers (there are meaningless ones available; they refer to depth of armour penetration, which would then make it a question of how tough the actual armour is per cm), but it's kind of likely that four weapons are going to be more powerful than two.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, so the TIE interceptors are going to be as powerful or more even more powerful, since they can have 4-10 guns <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> The same logic with the ISD v the Concordia, the ISD has more guns so will be able to do more damage. I like this reasoning, pity that it doesn't actually prove anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm aware that some TIEs are shielded, but the vast majority are cannon fodder. The shields on, say, an Assault Gunboat can take far more hits than Sabre. However, the Sabre's shields recharge far faster (a matter of seconds).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->All this comes to nothing without any numbers backing it up. And as for the assault gunboat v Sabre, the assault gunboat can be armed with proton torpedoes. 15kT minimum missles capable of 72000 g turns... That is going to do quite a bit of damage especally when launched linked.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, a Sabre probably couldn't survive multiple turbolaser hits. The fact is, the star destroyer has to be able to hit it first <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I'm pretty sure it could take a hit or two, which would deplete the shields, it would have to back off for about six seconds and then the shields would be back up. Wing Commander fighters rely on agility rather than thick shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->From the Mace missile information, the Sabre wouldn't survive a single turbolaser hit due to the 180mT yeilds of the light guns.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it depends on the fighter. A Broadsword bomber is built like a tank, and has sheilds as thick as, say, a B-Wing. I don't know if you've ever flown one of those, but it's like flying a tank <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Give some numbers and I'd be more likely to believe it. A worked calculation would be perfect.
If you need to see any SW calculations, the best sites are <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net' target='_blank'>Stardestroyer.net</a> and <a href='http://www.theforce.net/swtc/' target='_blank'>Star Wars technical commentaries</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It does, but again capship shields work differently from fighter shields. Torpedoes take 20 seconds to analyse the phase pattern of capship shields and lock on, and can't be used against starfighters (you wouldn't want to, anyway).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Star Wars sheilding doesn't appear to have the same frequency dependance as the Star Trek and Wing Commander shields.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think this would be much of a disadvantage, as the vast majority of starfighters a typical Star Destroyer would be carrying would be unshielded and be flown by inferior pilots (and don't give me any "It's a special ISD with only TIE/Ds and Missile Boats, crewed only by handpicked elite mercenaries". Standard, average loadout).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Grand Admiral Thrawn had all his TIE interceptors sheilded. It all depends on where this ISD coomes from, as the core worlds would have better fighters than the outer rim. <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, a very skilled TIE/In pilot could take out a green Rapier pilot. That's why they don't give green pilots Rapiers. You've played X-Wing, right? The TIEs die like they're being poured into a meat grinder.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I haven't. But in TIE fighter, the X-wings go down fairly easily if you're not stupid and don't try to go head to head with the sheilded craft. This is why the game mechanics aren't canon.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes... And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when: <!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a little unsure about this myself. It basically comes down to a Wing Commander starfighter called the Morningstar, which carries what is described as a tactical nuclear missile. You're able to use this missile on phase shielded stuff, with no lock time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do any FMV shots show a Mace hit on a shielded ship?
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I can say with reasonable confidence that a proton torpedo, if it does in fact have a nuclear warhead in it, is not in the same scale as a Mace missile (er... that's the Morningstar's nuke). There's no blinding flash and huge explosion when a proton torpedo hits, and there is with a Mace. You could fire a Mace into a cluster of starfighters and it'd utterly wipe them out - you can't do that with a proton torpedo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or that the proton torpedo has a far more focused explosion than the Mace, so that it is more effective for a given yeild than the Mace (Something which has precedence in the seismic charges and clone army dropship missiles.)
<!--QuoteBegin-BobbyShaftoe+Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobbyShaftoe @ Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Whoever mentioned "Culture" Warships is on the money!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That'd be me.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobbyShaftoe+Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobbyShaftoe @ Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I bet the R.O.U (Killing Time?) in Excession that took on the 128+ (How many did it take out? The engagement time was measured in NANOSECONDS!) ships from pittance ship store could waste a sizeable % of any massed universe fleet sent against it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Torturer-class rapid offense unit <i>Killing Time</i> single-handedly destroyed at least 6 ships in 11 microseconds, and it wasn't even attempting to carve its way through the enemy, but to ensure the destruction of one ship (it skipped the first two waves of enemy ships and only engaged a few of the third). The only damage was self inflicted engine degredation.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I haven't. But in TIE fighter, the X-wings go down fairly easily if you're not stupid and don't try to go head to head with the sheilded craft. This is why the game mechanics aren't canon. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm so proud I caused all this.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you want to get truly geeky, the principle behind the TIE fighter's survivability was to encourage novice pilots to trust in the choices and actions of higher level Imperial Command, both tactically as well as not to throw them away needlessly. In practise of course, it just made pilots hope to distinguish themselves in order to be promoted to a higher survival rate TIE variant.
Bear in mind the Empire itself was not evil in principle, much like WWII Germany was not itself evil, but rather the motives of a small portion of the population.
The Concordia vs a Nebulon B frigate would be more interesting, imo. Note that I'm not talking about how the Rebels used it, as a Medical Frigate, but as the combat version the Empire used, which did carry a fighter complement.
I don't really need numbers Bill Door, just sheer commen sense. An energy beam, tens of metres wide and fired constantly for several seconds at a time, is not going to take down the SSD? Yeah. Whatever.
And Star Furies must have inertial dampners, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pull off the manoevers they can do. The armour of TIEs is thin. There is no doubt about that. Unless it has an amazing ability to absorb and dissipate energy, energy weapons will punch through it.
The TIE loses its speed advantage as it had to slow down to hit the Star Fury (I think. I keep finding different max speeds for TIEs). Pointless being able to. The Star Fury is also armed with a several kiloton fusion warhead, given it a secondary system a standard TIE fighter lacks. The Star Fury's weapons also out-range the TIE's laser cannons by some considerable margin (160,000mkm).
I suppose I don't have a lot of what you'd call hard evidence, since I'm basically basing it on Relative Net Arse-kicking rather than Absolute Net Arse-kicking. In other words, number-of-shots-it-takes-to-kill-things, which is really based on both the guns <i>and</i> the armour. Since the numbers ingame are pretty similar, it's possible that Star Wars stuff would still win because the shields, armour and guns are all more powerful than Wing Commander, but relative to their own environment they "feel" the same (if that is in fact the case). But again, if you want numbers, I refer you to that link.
Nevertheless, I will insert a brief description of the Phase Transit cannon. Once again, the weapon runs <i>the length of the ship</i>. The Star Destroyers don't have a gun like that. The Phase Transit cannon is a one-off weapon, salvaged from the Sivar, a secret Kilrathi dreadnought (the Kilrathi are the enemy aliens, by the way). The Sivar's gun was a planet destroying weapon. Well, "destroying" isn't the right term - not in the same way that the Death Star was. More a case of that if you fire it at a planet you'll kill everyone on it. Basically, if the Star Destroyer were to come in range, the Concordia could wipe it out in one shot. I base that on the fact that it can destabilise the crust of a <i>planet</i> in one shot.
...I've just done some digging for info on it, and while it isn't as powerful a weapon as the Sivar's gun, it's pretty close. <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=7916' target='_blank'>Here</a>. Fire it into the bridge of an ISD and no more ISD. There's nothing the ISD is packing that can do that to the Concordia, not nearly as quickly.
Hm. Turns out it wasn't one-off after all, and that there was more than one Confederation-class dreadnought. Not nearly as many as there were Imperial Star Destroyers. The Terran Confederation is on a saner budger than the Imperial Navy (ie, they actually <i>have</i> one <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
...
An MC80 Mon Calimari Cruiser will <i>not</i> win against a Star Destroyer, at least not on pitting the power of the two ships against each other. That's been mentioned more than once in the game manuals. It's built better; more redundancy and survivability, but it can't match the firepower. It's been said that the MC80 could probably cripple an ISD, but not destroy it.
...
Aha. I've just checked up on something else in the "The Farlander Papers" (comes with X-Wing) and found that ISDs carry three TIE/Fig, two TIE/In, TIE/Bmr (squadrons) and only 5 assault gunboats. That's far less than I thought. Once again, I can't produce authoritative numbers (I've got plenty of <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=8006' target='_blank'>non authoritative statements</a>, if you like) but the numbers seem a lot closer.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 15 2004, 12:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 15 2004, 12:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Aha. I've just checked up on something else in the "The Farlander Papers" (comes with X-Wing) and found that ISDs carry three TIE/Fig, two TIE/In, TIE/Bmr (squadrons) and only 5 assault gunboats. That's far less than I thought. Once again, I can't produce authoritative numbers (I've got plenty of <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=8006' target='_blank'>non authoritative statements</a>, if you like) but the numbers seem a lot closer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Farlander Papers can't be trusted. They're sort of... off. Go with other sources before that.
How long does it take to charge the Concordia's weapon? How well can it aim it? My guess is that if the ISD could survive the first shot (either by microjumping around too fast for the Concordia to lock on, or by somehow taking the beam at a glancing angle), then the Concordia would lose; however, we have no way of telling whether it can or can't.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Mar 15 2004, 01:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 15 2004, 01:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How long does it take to charge the Concordia's weapon? How well can it aim it? My guess is that if the ISD could survive the first shot (either by microjumping around too fast for the Concordia to lock on, or by somehow taking the beam at a glancing angle), then the Concordia would lose; however, we have no way of telling whether it can or can't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Takes a matter of seconds. I don't know how quickly it can be fired again, though. The ISD would have to know it's coming first, though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really need numbers Bill Door, just sheer commen sense. An energy beam, tens of metres wide and fired constantly for several seconds at a time, is not going to take down the SSD? Yeah. Whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nice no numbers fallicy there. With the same amount of proof I could easily claim that the tens of metres wide beam carries less energy than a TIE starfighter laser...
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Star Furies must have inertial dampners, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pull off the manoevers they can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Starfuries from Babylon 5? The lot who have to use rotating sections to generate artifical gravity? Think about it, if they can't generate a 1G field downwards, then how are they going to generate the thousands of G's that are needed to prevent the TIE pilot becoming a red smear? <!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The armour of TIEs is thin. There is no doubt about that. Unless it has an amazing ability to absorb and dissipate energy, energy weapons will punch through it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The survive re-entry well enough. The main idea is that they shouldn't get hit though. <!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The TIE loses its speed advantage as it had to slow down to hit the Star Fury (I think. I keep finding different max speeds for TIEs)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Desn't matter about the speed, the thing I'm talking abouts <i>acceleration</i>, something that is far more pertinant to this discussion, as it allows <i>large relative speeds</i> to be built up. And then its going to be a case of doing the space equivalent of strafing a target. The acceleration will make the TIE hard to hit due to the ability to rapidly change its relative velocity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointless being able to. The Star Fury is also armed with a several kiloton fusion warhead, given it a secondary system a standard TIE fighter lacks. The Star Fury's weapons also out-range the TIE's laser cannons by some considerable margin (160,000mkm).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is that effective range against something as small as a TIE, especally coming head on?
Due to the differences in maximum acceleration possible (~5 for the star fury compaired to thousands for the TIE) your extra range is not going to be all that useful.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 15 2004, 03:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 15 2004, 03:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Basically, if the Star Destroyer were to come in range, the Concordia could wipe it out in one shot. I base that on the fact that it can destabilise the crust of a <i>planet</i> in one shot. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that isn't hyperbolae, thats all I really needed to know. A single hit would overload the shield generators and probably cause significant damage. In the mess that that would leave the ISD would be unable to put up any sort of co-ordinated defence (Especally if the bridge is hit.)
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Ah, but then we're not taking into effect any situational modifiers based on the ships apart from a head-on charge at each other.
Which is faster and/or more maneuverable? ISD's (for their ship size obviously) are capable of fairly rapid redeployment & a decent top speed (see the initial chase after the Correlian Blockade Runner for this) whereas if I remember correctly from the WC games, the Concordia takes a year & a day to get anywhere, as well as the fact the ISD can jump fairly quickly, while the Conc takes also ages to do so. (And REQUIRES jump points no less)
I'm only adding in these factors because seeing as there isn't much aiming potential for the Concordia's main gun, due to the fact it is spinal mount. That means no lateral aiming for the weapon at all (actually if I remember correctly {insert hazy recollection of when I decided to try to blow the Conc up} the Conc's entire anti-captial ship weaponry is forward fixed mount, only it's anti fighter weapons were turreted) whereas the entirity of the ISD's weaponry is turret based.
If that's the case, what's to stop the quite fast ISD from simply circling the Conc and bombarding the bejesus out of it (which is entirely what an ISD is meant originally to do, bombardment)
I'm going for the theory that each craft approaches each other and detects each other from outside maximum range, and then closes to use their respective advantage to greatest effect.
I think the fighter engagements would be largely fruitless, the sheer numbers of TIE's would overwhelm the Conc's, but the Conc fighters tend to have a higher individual skill level & ship quality.
Don't even make me *think* of Stormtrooper boarding actions... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If the ISD got through the shields of the Enterprise... the Enterprise would crumple like an Origami swan under a truck tire.
If the Enterprise got through the ISD's shields, it still has an assload of armor plating, bulkheads, and decks to blow through before it gets to the juicy core of the ship... and the ISD can just roll around and expose new shields to the Enterprise...
And besides, I'd bet the Kadeshi would kick BOTH their ****...
Comments
(Exchange Cpt. Kirk by Picard if you wish; hating Shatner with a burning passion, I'll use him for this example.)
Cpt.Kirk standing on the bridge; the main screen shows the Imperial Star Destroyer.
Some ensign: "Target acquired, sir."
*Slowly growing deep hum.*
Cpt.Kirk: "Good. Phaser banks and torpedoes - fi - *choke* *gurgle*"
*Kirk is being lifted off the ground, clutching his neck.*
Cpt.Kirk: *Further gurgling until his head sags to the side.*
*The limp body sags to the floor.*
Spock: "Interesting." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL
ahahaha--pwned, forget the ships lol
I hate shatner too.
It's freaking ridiculous. The turbolasers can't be a purely EM weapon (i.e. laser, or other electromagnetic pulse), since the gun has recoil that far exceeds what an EM pulse of that energy could produce. But even if it were a straight projectile gun, the turbolaser would have to shoot a shell of over 10^4 kg per shot (and that's being conservative, i came up with a range of 10^4 to 10^9 kg...ridiculous). That's like firing anything between a mack truck and a ship (like a destroyer or cruiser) every shot! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Don't even get me started on the Death Star laser.
Anyway, the point is...I don't think the Enterprise could survive a mack truck crashing into it at like, 10-100 kilometers/second (based on the movie footage, this is how fast i estimated them going). Not to mention a whole fleet of mack trucks.
Picard: Red Alert! Raise shields!
Ryker: Sir, we can't survive a shot, I suggest that we take evasive actions and flee.
(Star Destroyer turns on its tractor beams)
Worf: Oh ****.
Data: Sensors indicate that we are screwed.
Geordi: If we could reverse the polarity of the transporters and beaming ourselves into space, we might be able to escape Vader's torture chambers!
Picard: But won't we die?
Random ensign: *choke*
(random ensign is lifted in the air, grabbing at his neck, and dies)
Picard: Never mind, make it so.
Geordi: I'll need 3 hours, captain!
Picard: You have 10 seconds.
(The entire crew of the Enterprise beams itself into outer space, and promptly die from explosive decompression, rather than face imprisonment by the Imperial Navy).
ROFL!! And it's so true too! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Resistance is futile, we can adapt to anything after your first shot...."
"Who the hell said we were going to fire <i>twice?</i>"
*KA-BLAM!!!!!!!!!*
EDIT : Having played pretty much every Wing Commander (And Xwing, and TIE Fighter, and XvT, oh my God I'm sad aren't I?) to death, an ISD would pwn the Concordia, if nothing lse because if you check, the Concordia is <b>TINY</b> compared to the ISD.
As for my opinion, imagine the following scene:
(Exchange Cpt. Kirk by Picard if you wish; hating Shatner with a burning passion, I'll use him for this example.)
Cpt.Kirk standing on the bridge; the main screen shows the Imperial Star Destroyer.
Some ensign: "Target acquired, sir."
*Slowly growing deep hum.*
Cpt.Kirk: "Good. Phaser banks and torpedoes - fi - *choke* *gurgle*"
*Kirk is being lifted off the ground, clutching his neck.*
Cpt.Kirk: *Further gurgling until his head sags to the side.*
*The limp body sags to the floor.*
Spock: "Interesting." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must... resist... nerd... urges. Must... stop... talking... like.. William Shatner!
*Fails*
SPOCK WOULD NEVER SAY "INTERESTING!"
ITS "FASCINATING", YOU FOOL! <b><i>FASCINATING!!</i></b>
Speaking of Star Trek, you know the jacket Micheal Collins wore in the scene with V'eger from <i>Star Trek: The Motion Picture</i>? Well, its hanging on the door in my room, I'm looking at it as I type.
Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
Ha. Maybe not! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Concordia
Class: Confederation
Length: 983.7 metres
Max Velocity: 100 kps
Mass: 73,000 Tonnes
Weapons:
3 Flak Cannon
8 Anti-Matter Cannon
Phase Transit Cannon
Full complement of fighters<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD.
1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles.
2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields.
3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters, they're better shielded, their pilots are better trained, and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.
4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).
Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
Ha. Maybe not! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Concordia
Class: Confederation
Length: 983.7 metres
Max Velocity: 100 kps
Mass: 73,000 Tonnes
Weapons:
3 Flak Cannon
8 Anti-Matter Cannon
Phase Transit Cannon
Full complement of fighters<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->nitpick, thats 1.6km for the ISD. The ISD is 1.6 times as long as the <i>Concordia</i>.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD.
1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles.
2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Won't do much good if you're outranged. Star Wars ships engage at several hundred kilometers.
And then there is the thick armoured cladding, which has been shown to be good at surviving .
Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->their pilots are better trained,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Possible, given that I know nothing at all about Wing Commander <!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?.
Finally on fighters, How many fighters and attack craft does the <i>Concordia</i> have? Even if you have technical superiority, the numerical superiority of Imperial craft may prevent the attack craft from attacking. And then you have to show that they are an actual threat.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes...
And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when:
<!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but let's face it: it's sci-fi, it doesn't have to be realistic. We've had many discussions about the difference between suspension of disbelief and realism. What about NS? Is it inferior to, say, Day of Defeat because "OMG IT DOESN'T HAVE NRG FOR JUMPING!!!11oneone TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE AND UNREALISTIC!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->As long as its good, consistant sci-fi, they can make it as unrealistic as they like (Point singularity weapons? Ok, I can live with them. Computers that simulate universes in their spare time? Sure, why not. The ability to call up energy discharges in the order of exotons? Whoa... kinda cool.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee +Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Mar 13 2004, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->*edit* and you know what Star Wars has that Star Trek doesn't? Totally BADASS LASERS that blow up planets!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->You think thats powerful? Try the Culture. If it isn't the fact that typical battles last fractions of seconds, its the way effectors can subvert technology easily knife missles compressed antimatter, and Gridfire. Gridfire makes the turbolasers on an ISD look like a nerf gun...
too true.
In the same manner The Heart of Gold with its infinate improbablity drive could beat SW and ST. Its a bit hard to fight when you're a sperm whale or a bowl of petunias falling towards the nearest heavenly body...
too true.
In the same manner The Heart of Gold with its infinate improbablity drive could beat SW and ST. Its a bit hard to fight when you're a sperm whale or a bowl of petunias falling towards the nearest heavenly body... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too bad calculating the exact improbability of that happening takes longer than firing the Vorlon Planet Killer's main weapon.
Bye-bye, Zaphod.
Oh crap. I think you're right.
/me runs and checks Joan's Fighting Spacecraft (2664.128 update)
Ha. Maybe not! :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Concordia
Class: Confederation
Length: 983.7 metres
Max Velocity: 100 kps
Mass: 73,000 Tonnes
Weapons:
3 Flak Cannon
8 Anti-Matter Cannon
Phase Transit Cannon
Full complement of fighters<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
983.7 metres. An ISD is 1500 metres. Not that tiny ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->nitpick, thats 1.6km for the ISD. The ISD is 1.6 times as long as the <i>Concordia</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course it's longer. My point is simply that the Concordia isn't tiny by comparison.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are four reasons why the Concordia would pwn an ISD.
1: Anti-Matter Cannon (well, these kind) were developed specifically to ignore shields, for use in capital-vs-capital battles.
2: The Phase Transit Cannon. The weapon so big it forms the keel of the ship. Once again, this weapon ignores shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Won't do much good if you're outranged. Star Wars ships engage at several hundred kilometers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The phase transit and the antimatter guns have at least the range of KDY turbolasers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And then there is the thick armoured cladding, which has been shown to be good at surviving .
Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they can. They'd be pretty silly shields if they couldn't.
By the way, the shielding on WC starfighters is different from on capital ships, and it behaves differently to shields on, say, the X-Wing. Capital shield phase shields can stop nearly anything, as I mentioned earlier. Starfighter shields are actually pretty weak (as shields go), but they recharge very fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More guns which charge faster and do more damage. Most of the fighters have four, closely grouped weapons. The heavier ships have very powerful turrets. I can't provide you with meaningful numbers (there are meaningless ones available; they refer to depth of armour penetration, which would then make it a question of how tough the actual armour is per cm), but it's kind of likely that four weapons are going to be more powerful than two.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware that some TIEs are shielded, but the vast majority are cannon fodder. The shields on, say, an Assault Gunboat can take far more hits than Sabre. However, the Sabre's shields recharge far faster (a matter of seconds).
No, a Sabre probably couldn't survive multiple turbolaser hits. The fact is, the star destroyer has to be able to hit it first ;). I'm pretty sure it could take a hit or two, which would deplete the shields, it would have to back off for about six seconds and then the shields would be back up. Wing Commander fighters rely on agility rather than thick shields.
But it depends on the fighter. A Broadsword bomber is built like a tank, and has sheilds as thick as, say, a B-Wing. I don't know if you've ever flown one of those, but it's like flying a tank :)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->their pilots are better trained,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Possible, given that I know nothing at all about Wing Commander<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Empire is renowned for the inadequate pilot training. Confederation cadets are trained pretty much like Airforce pilots are today (as far as I'm aware).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but again capship shields work differently from fighter shields. Torpedoes take 20 seconds to analyse the phase pattern of capship shields and lock on, and can't be used against starfighters (you wouldn't want to, anyway).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally on fighters, How many fighters and attack craft does the <i>Concordia</i> have? Even if you have technical superiority, the numerical superiority of Imperial craft may prevent the attack craft from attacking. And then you have to show that they are an actual threat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know exactly, but I know it's a lot less than a Star Destroyer. It's probably more comparable to what the Rebels field per ship. I don't think this would be much of a disadvantage, as the vast majority of starfighters a typical Star Destroyer would be carrying would be unshielded and be flown by inferior pilots (and don't give me any "It's a special ISD with only TIE/Ds and Missile Boats, crewed only by handpicked elite mercenaries". Standard, average loadout). Yes, a very skilled TIE/In pilot could take out a green Rapier pilot. That's why they don't give green pilots Rapiers. You've played X-Wing, right? The TIEs die like they're being poured into a meat grinder.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4: Phase Shielding. Which renders the Concordia (and other Confederation capital ships) damn near invulnerable to conventional weapons. The only weapons that can defeat Phase Shields are either weapons that in some way crack the shields (like torpedoes and the anti-matter cannon), or extremely high-yield explosives (like really huge nukes).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes...
And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when:
<!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little unsure about this myself. It basically comes down to a Wing Commander starfighter called the Morningstar, which carries what is described as a tactical nuclear missile. You're able to use this missile on phase shielded stuff, with no lock time.
To be honest, I don't know why they developed torpedoes if they've got that kind of hardware lying around. But I can say with reasonable confidence that a proton torpedo, if it does in fact have a nuclear warhead in it, is not in the same scale as a Mace missile (er... that's the Morningstar's nuke). There's no blinding flash and huge explosion when a proton torpedo hits, and there is with a Mace. You could fire a Mace into a cluster of starfighters and it'd utterly wipe them out - you can't do that with a proton torpedo. I'm going on the visual evidence in the games, here (I'm a gamer geek, not a sci-fi geek :P)
...and I'm exhausted and going to bed, now. If you're at all interested, the data's available online <a href='http://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2confed.shtml' target='_blank'>here</a>. If the details on the Concordia are off slightly, it's because I got them from the paper WC2 manual.
Imperial Super Star destroyer vs Mon Calmary Flagship (The rebel Alliance's Flagship, not the standard mon calmari crusiers, this one is over 3 kilometers long,)
vs Homeworld 2's Sajuuk<=== Huge monster ship with huge monster cannon) vs that goliath ship from Frespace 2. in an all out 4 way slug fest.
===================================
But seriosuly people I think that Star wars /star trek seems to "different" to make these "who would win" comparisons.
So lets compair things of similiar technology. etc
heh the Higara or the Vaygr battle crusiers vs star destroyers would be an evenly matched battle Id like to see.
Or Babylon 5 Star Furies vs Imperial TIE Interceptors would be evenly matched.
Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when your put in a ship which is basically paper mache with guns, you make a mistake and your dead. The survival rate for TIE pilots starts low, gets lower over a few engagements, and then increases dramatically, as you have to be damn good to last that long in a TIE fighter.
Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It would be cored easily it one opening volley. If its the human ship, then the Sajuuk would then win easily. If its the alien huge ship, then it would be close, as your talking two ancient races duking it out for supremacy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->How old? The old Republic lasted 25000 years, and Star Wars has had FTL flight for longer than that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when your put in a ship which is basically paper mache with guns, you make a mistake and your dead. The survival rate for TIE pilots starts low, gets lower over a few engagements, and then increases dramatically, as you have to be damn good to last that long in a TIE fighter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Papier mache to the SW guns certainly. But not nesiccarly papier mache when compared to other universes guns.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Whatever. Do Starfuries have inertial dampers? No.
TIE's do, and ones capable of allowing them to survive thousands of gees of linear acceleration.
The Starfury is going to have a very hard time hitting a ship which can easily create huge amounts of relative velocity.
In addition, the TIE's have off axis aiming ability and 1kT lasers. The only way the Star Fury is going to win is the TIE pilot serously messing up.
[QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM] It would be cored easily it one opening volley. If its the human ship, then the Sajuuk would then win easily. If its the alien huge ship, then it would be close, as your talking two ancient races duking it out for supremacy.[/QUOTE]How old? The old Republic lasted 25000 years, and Star Wars has had FTL flight for longer than that.
[QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM]Oh and the Imperial Navy trains its pilots very well. The problem being, when
[QUOTE=Aldaris,Mar 14 2004, 05:32 PM]Star Furies vs TIE fighters...hmmm...I'd go with the Star Furies, simply because they're more manoeuverable then a TIE fighter.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Whatever. Do Starfuries have inertial dampers? No.
TIE's do, and ones capable of allowing them to survive thousands of gees of linear acceleration.
The Starfury is going to have a very hard time hitting a ship which can easily create huge amounts of relative velocity.
In addition, the TIE's have off axis aiming ability and 1kT lasers. The only way the Star Fury is going to win is the TIE pilot serously messing up. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then again can a TIE rotate around its own axis like a star Fury can? no?
id still vote for the TIE though.
Although star trek and star wars differ with the B5 series and the NEW battle Star Galactica in that the later require and use multi positioning thrusters on there ships so that they can do crazy stuff like flip there ship around while still maintaining forward movment and veloctiy.
maybe I should have compaired starfurys to the Colonial Viper MK2s
wow we are all <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo--> and it so fun! eee
I bet the R.O.U (Killing Time?) in Excession that took on the 128+ (How many did it take out? The engagement time was measured in NANOSECONDS!) ships from pittance ship store could waste a sizeable % of any massed universe fleet sent against it.
Of course it's longer. My point is simply that the Concordia isn't tiny by comparison.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yep, but the ISD has a volume of 9E7 m³. Unless the Concordia is wider and taller than the ISD, then the volume is going to be smaller.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, the anti-matter cannon may be able to penertrate Wing Commander sheilding systems, but can Wing Commander sheilds stop physical objects? SW sheilds can.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, they can. They'd be pretty silly shields if they couldn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Some universes don't have kinetic shields.
By the way, the shielding on WC starfighters is different from on capital ships, and it behaves differently to shields on, say, the X-Wing. Capital shield phase shields can stop nearly anything, as I mentioned earlier. Starfighter shields are actually pretty weak (as shields go), but they recharge very fast.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3: It's a starfighter carrier. Confederation fighters are more powerful than Imperial fighters,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Any calculations to back that up? I refuse to just accept it just because someone says so. Back up you claims.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More guns which charge faster and do more damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Woo. Nice lack of numbers there. What's to stop me claiming that they can have yeilds of mere tons of TNT?
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Most of the fighters have four, closely grouped weapons. The heavier ships have very powerful turrets. I can't provide you with meaningful numbers (there are meaningless ones available; they refer to depth of armour penetration, which would then make it a question of how tough the actual armour is per cm), but it's kind of likely that four weapons are going to be more powerful than two.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh, so the TIE interceptors are going to be as powerful or more even more powerful, since they can have 4-10 guns <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> The same logic with the ISD v the Concordia, the ISD has more guns so will be able to do more damage. I like this reasoning, pity that it doesn't actually prove anything.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> they're better shielded,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Are those sheilds capable of surviving multiple 1kT hits? And, whilst most TIE's are unsheilded, TIE interceptors can be outfitted with shield generators, TIE defenders are sheilded and assault gunboats are sheilded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware that some TIEs are shielded, but the vast majority are cannon fodder. The shields on, say, an Assault Gunboat can take far more hits than Sabre. However, the Sabre's shields recharge far faster (a matter of seconds).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->All this comes to nothing without any numbers backing it up. And as for the assault gunboat v Sabre, the assault gunboat can be armed with proton torpedoes. 15kT minimum missles capable of 72000 g turns... That is going to do quite a bit of damage especally when launched linked.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, a Sabre probably couldn't survive multiple turbolaser hits. The fact is, the star destroyer has to be able to hit it first <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->. I'm pretty sure it could take a hit or two, which would deplete the shields, it would have to back off for about six seconds and then the shields would be back up. Wing Commander fighters rely on agility rather than thick shields.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->From the Mace missile information, the Sabre wouldn't survive a single turbolaser hit due to the 180mT yeilds of the light guns.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But it depends on the fighter. A Broadsword bomber is built like a tank, and has sheilds as thick as, say, a B-Wing. I don't know if you've ever flown one of those, but it's like flying a tank <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Give some numbers and I'd be more likely to believe it. A worked calculation would be perfect.
If you need to see any SW calculations, the best sites are <a href='http://www.stardestroyer.net' target='_blank'>Stardestroyer.net</a> and <a href='http://www.theforce.net/swtc/' target='_blank'>Star Wars technical commentaries</a>
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the bombers and heavy fighters have (you guessed it) torpedoes which can penetrate shields to damage armour directly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Does Wing Commander have shleids capable of stopping physical objects?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but again capship shields work differently from fighter shields. Torpedoes take 20 seconds to analyse the phase pattern of capship shields and lock on, and can't be used against starfighters (you wouldn't want to, anyway).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Star Wars sheilding doesn't appear to have the same frequency dependance as the Star Trek and Wing Commander shields.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think this would be much of a disadvantage, as the vast majority of starfighters a typical Star Destroyer would be carrying would be unshielded and be flown by inferior pilots (and don't give me any "It's a special ISD with only TIE/Ds and Missile Boats, crewed only by handpicked elite mercenaries". Standard, average loadout).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Grand Admiral Thrawn had all his TIE interceptors sheilded. It all depends on where this ISD coomes from, as the core worlds would have better fighters than the outer rim.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, a very skilled TIE/In pilot could take out a green Rapier pilot. That's why they don't give green pilots Rapiers. You've played X-Wing, right? The TIEs die like they're being poured into a meat grinder.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I haven't. But in TIE fighter, the X-wings go down fairly easily if you're not stupid and don't try to go head to head with the sheilded craft. This is why the game mechanics aren't canon.
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->High yield nukes? starfighter proton torpedoes can be can be described as nukes...
And then theres the larger and corrispondingly more powerful capital scale proton torpedoes. But who needs torpedoes when:
<!--QuoteBegin-The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship+ page 248--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship @ page 248)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->And the largest nuke ever tested (The Tsar Bomba) was 50 megatons, though that was a scaled down prototype. Even taking the full sized concept 'only' yeilds 100-150 megatons.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a little unsure about this myself. It basically comes down to a Wing Commander starfighter called the Morningstar, which carries what is described as a tactical nuclear missile. You're able to use this missile on phase shielded stuff, with no lock time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Do any FMV shots show a Mace hit on a shielded ship?
<!--QuoteBegin-SoulSkorpion+Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Mar 14 2004, 09:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But I can say with reasonable confidence that a proton torpedo, if it does in fact have a nuclear warhead in it, is not in the same scale as a Mace missile (er... that's the Morningstar's nuke). There's no blinding flash and huge explosion when a proton torpedo hits, and there is with a Mace. You could fire a Mace into a cluster of starfighters and it'd utterly wipe them out - you can't do that with a proton torpedo.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or that the proton torpedo has a far more focused explosion than the Mace, so that it is more effective for a given yeild than the Mace (Something which has precedence in the seismic charges and clone army dropship missiles.)
<!--QuoteBegin-BobbyShaftoe+Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobbyShaftoe @ Mar 14 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I bet the R.O.U (Killing Time?) in Excession that took on the 128+ (How many did it take out? The engagement time was measured in NANOSECONDS!) ships from pittance ship store could waste a sizeable % of any massed universe fleet sent against it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Torturer-class rapid offense unit <i>Killing Time</i> single-handedly destroyed at least 6 ships in 11 microseconds, and it wasn't even attempting to carve its way through the enemy, but to ensure the destruction of one ship (it skipped the first two waves of enemy ships and only engaged a few of the third). The only damage was self inflicted engine degredation.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm so proud I caused all this.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If you want to get truly geeky, the principle behind the TIE fighter's survivability was to encourage novice pilots to trust in the choices and actions of higher level Imperial Command, both tactically as well as not to throw them away needlessly. In practise of course, it just made pilots hope to distinguish themselves in order to be promoted to a higher survival rate TIE variant.
Bear in mind the Empire itself was not evil in principle, much like WWII Germany was not itself evil, but rather the motives of a small portion of the population.
The Concordia vs a Nebulon B frigate would be more interesting, imo. Note that I'm not talking about how the Rebels used it, as a Medical Frigate, but as the combat version the Empire used, which did carry a fighter complement.
And Star Furies must have inertial dampners, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pull off the manoevers they can do. The armour of TIEs is thin. There is no doubt about that. Unless it has an amazing ability to absorb and dissipate energy, energy weapons will punch through it.
The TIE loses its speed advantage as it had to slow down to hit the Star Fury (I think. I keep finding different max speeds for TIEs). Pointless being able to. The Star Fury is also armed with a several kiloton fusion warhead, given it a secondary system a standard TIE fighter lacks. The Star Fury's weapons also out-range the TIE's laser cannons by some considerable margin (160,000mkm).
Nevertheless, I will insert a brief description of the Phase Transit cannon. Once again, the weapon runs <i>the length of the ship</i>. The Star Destroyers don't have a gun like that. The Phase Transit cannon is a one-off weapon, salvaged from the Sivar, a secret Kilrathi dreadnought (the Kilrathi are the enemy aliens, by the way). The Sivar's gun was a planet destroying weapon. Well, "destroying" isn't the right term - not in the same way that the Death Star was. More a case of that if you fire it at a planet you'll kill everyone on it. Basically, if the Star Destroyer were to come in range, the Concordia could wipe it out in one shot. I base that on the fact that it can destabilise the crust of a <i>planet</i> in one shot.
...I've just done some digging for info on it, and while it isn't as powerful a weapon as the Sivar's gun, it's pretty close. <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=7916' target='_blank'>Here</a>. Fire it into the bridge of an ISD and no more ISD. There's nothing the ISD is packing that can do that to the Concordia, not nearly as quickly.
Hm. Turns out it wasn't one-off after all, and that there was more than one Confederation-class dreadnought. Not nearly as many as there were Imperial Star Destroyers. The Terran Confederation is on a saner budger than the Imperial Navy (ie, they actually <i>have</i> one <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
...
An MC80 Mon Calimari Cruiser will <i>not</i> win against a Star Destroyer, at least not on pitting the power of the two ships against each other. That's been mentioned more than once in the game manuals. It's built better; more redundancy and survivability, but it can't match the firepower. It's been said that the MC80 could probably cripple an ISD, but not destroy it.
...
Aha. I've just checked up on something else in the "The Farlander Papers" (comes with X-Wing) and found that ISDs carry three TIE/Fig, two TIE/In, TIE/Bmr (squadrons) and only 5 assault gunboats. That's far less than I thought. Once again, I can't produce authoritative numbers (I've got plenty of <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=8006' target='_blank'>non authoritative statements</a>, if you like) but the numbers seem a lot closer.
Aha. I've just checked up on something else in the "The Farlander Papers" (comes with X-Wing) and found that ISDs carry three TIE/Fig, two TIE/In, TIE/Bmr (squadrons) and only 5 assault gunboats. That's far less than I thought. Once again, I can't produce authoritative numbers (I've got plenty of <a href='http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=8006' target='_blank'>non authoritative statements</a>, if you like) but the numbers seem a lot closer. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Farlander Papers can't be trusted. They're sort of... off. Go with other sources before that.
Takes a matter of seconds. I don't know how quickly it can be fired again, though. The ISD would have to know it's coming first, though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Star Furies must have inertial dampners, otherwise they wouldn't be able to pull off the manoevers they can do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Starfuries from Babylon 5? The lot who have to use rotating sections to generate artifical gravity? Think about it, if they can't generate a 1G field downwards, then how are they going to generate the thousands of G's that are needed to prevent the TIE pilot becoming a red smear?
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The armour of TIEs is thin. There is no doubt about that. Unless it has an amazing ability to absorb and dissipate energy, energy weapons will punch through it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->The survive re-entry well enough. The main idea is that they shouldn't get hit though.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The TIE loses its speed advantage as it had to slow down to hit the Star Fury (I think. I keep finding different max speeds for TIEs)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Desn't matter about the speed, the thing I'm talking abouts <i>acceleration</i>, something that is far more pertinant to this discussion, as it allows <i>large relative speeds</i> to be built up. And then its going to be a case of doing the space equivalent of strafing a target. The acceleration will make the TIE hard to hit due to the ability to rapidly change its relative velocity.
<!--QuoteBegin-Aldaris+Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aldaris @ Mar 15 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Pointless being able to. The Star Fury is also armed with a several kiloton fusion warhead, given it a secondary system a standard TIE fighter lacks. The Star Fury's weapons also out-range the TIE's laser cannons by some considerable margin (160,000mkm).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Is that effective range against something as small as a TIE, especally coming head on?
Due to the differences in maximum acceleration possible (~5 for the star fury compaired to thousands for the TIE) your extra range is not going to be all that useful.
If that isn't hyperbolae, thats all I really needed to know. A single hit would overload the shield generators and probably cause significant damage. In the mess that that would leave the ISD would be unable to put up any sort of co-ordinated defence (Especally if the bridge is hit.)
The Concordia wins.
Which is faster and/or more maneuverable? ISD's (for their ship size obviously) are capable of fairly rapid redeployment & a decent top speed (see the initial chase after the Correlian Blockade Runner for this) whereas if I remember correctly from the WC games, the Concordia takes a year & a day to get anywhere, as well as the fact the ISD can jump fairly quickly, while the Conc takes also ages to do so. (And REQUIRES jump points no less)
I'm only adding in these factors because seeing as there isn't much aiming potential for the Concordia's main gun, due to the fact it is spinal mount. That means no lateral aiming for the weapon at all (actually if I remember correctly {insert hazy recollection of when I decided to try to blow the Conc up} the Conc's entire anti-captial ship weaponry is forward fixed mount, only it's anti fighter weapons were turreted) whereas the entirity of the ISD's weaponry is turret based.
If that's the case, what's to stop the quite fast ISD from simply circling the Conc and bombarding the bejesus out of it (which is entirely what an ISD is meant originally to do, bombardment)
I'm going for the theory that each craft approaches each other and detects each other from outside maximum range, and then closes to use their respective advantage to greatest effect.
I think the fighter engagements would be largely fruitless, the sheer numbers of TIE's would overwhelm the Conc's, but the Conc fighters tend to have a higher individual skill level & ship quality.
Don't even make me *think* of Stormtrooper boarding actions... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If the ISD got through the shields of the Enterprise... the Enterprise would crumple like an Origami swan under a truck tire.
If the Enterprise got through the ISD's shields, it still has an assload of armor plating, bulkheads, and decks to blow through before it gets to the juicy core of the ship... and the ISD can just roll around and expose new shields to the Enterprise...
And besides, I'd bet the Kadeshi would kick BOTH their ****...