<!--quoteo(post=1933070:date=May 3 2012, 10:24 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 3 2012, 10:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933070"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well yes, that could be a bandaid on the current bandaid. but then it's not very intuitive WHEN your structures are mature. you can't go around checking them, or watching your clock, or nagging comm... so there has to be a third bandaid: a timer/measure on your HUD indicating maturity?
now look back at what we have? isn't it extremely complicated and cluttery?
in ns1 gorges had to build, APART from OCs, chambers/RTs/hives, in ns2 they build hydras ONLY. and suddenly there isn't enough res? also, when killing alien structures as marine, regaining map control, you know you damage the aliens ECONOMICALLY - if they want to rebuild they have to spend MORE RES. right now it doesn't mean sh*t to kill hydras, they can just be remade for free. your actions as marine feel more empty. add this to no reward for player kills making that feel empty too (as in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117830" target="_blank">this discussion</a>), and where is marine gameplay going? it will feel pointless and ungratifying imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offense Chambers were not the main reason for the Gorge in NS1. In fact I'd go as far to say that the Offense Chamber was an after-thought when playing the Gorge. Hydras will never be the resource sink that the Alien team needs because they provide only one function and that is immobile area denial (and they're not too hot at area denial right now).
<!--quoteo(post=1932674:date=May 2 2012, 03:37 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Have Clogs and Hydras/etc. dissolve over time if parent was not a Gorge for ~1 min"
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933064:date=May 3 2012, 05:08 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 05:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bravo, Xarius, you might actually have the first real, valid argument behind why it is broken. It is difficult for me to come up with a solution right this second, but the first thing that i noticed just before you posted was Asraniel suggesting Gorge's structures lasting longer.
I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge <b>worth </b>it.
Also allow hydras to scale one or two extra per hive and wala, you will be kept busy and have a great impact, you will be worth the res, initial res wont be hurt so theres an early game, and you arent forced into permagorge.
what do ya think?
@weezl: adding a maturity % to your existing counter of how many structures you have is not really "clutter" or difficult to do? Adding features requires GUI and feedback changes, believe it or not. Consider the implementation of Onos Charge, it has no visual feedback of any kind to let you know when it can be used again, unlike blink, BB etc. Its coming though.. and it wont be consider "clutter" or a "band aid". Its also an issue with the feedback currently that you cant tell which structures are matured yet or not until you look at them. (hive being the more important)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suppose this could be a solution, since you are then using 'the time it takes to mature as a balance variable. I like it actually, it's so far the only thing that would seem to do the trick.
Oh please don't link gorge structures back to p.res that's like the worst change that could happen as it would instantly boot the gorge back to the "nobody wants to play him"row. I'm not even sure i agree with the current change of having stuff disappear when the gorge dies.
206 added the option for 1-2 players from the kharaa team going gorge to drop down a little bit of area denial for 10 p.res without hurting the whole kharaa team in mid-late game by suddenly missing a ton of resources for higher lifeforms.
This option is now gone, you either are gorge for a whole round or you might as well never even bother to gorge. That's actually really stupid and boring, why not give players more options as to how to play the gorge? Personaly i would love to see different options to play the gorge either as an "temp gorge" or an "perma gorge", for that we could add an ability/something to the gorge that uses up p.res. Something that perma gorges can use to burn their p.res on.
Temp gorge would be like 206: Player goes 10-20 res gorge to drop a little bit area denial/cysts and won't regorge after dying (to save p.res for higher lifeforms) leaving his hydras open to get killed without him healing them.
Perm gorge would be a player who stays dedicated to being a gorge the whole round, to make this an viable tactic the gorge get's an ability/something that he can only activate by spending his p.res. So a good gorge who stays alive for longer will be able to spent more of his p.res on this ability instead of having to spent his p.res on regorging all the time. It would add a ton of depth to the gorge in general because it offers way more risk/reward choices for players. In an dire situation a gorge could chose to simply die or maybe risk spending p.res to shift the situation to his favor and survive.
Sure it would be counter-intuitive terms of game design if some abilities cost p.res and others not. But to make this less of an issue the ability/whatever could be very different/obvious/powerfull compared to the others.
Let's also remember that the gorge is not simply an engineer from TF2, the gorge is way more then that. And moddeling him around the TF2 engineer would actually dump his whole charm and origin down to something hollow that lacks original meaning. The gorge is basicly the official NS mascot, as such he should deliver an unique gameplay experience that clearly seperates him from "engineer classes" known from other games, instead of simply making him an fat and slipery copy of the TF2 engineer.
Make the gorge something unique, make him different from the other higher lifeforms and please do not make him some lame "engineer" class based on other class based shooters. Adding more depth to the gorge gameplay can easily work, players will still "get it" because they will spent time playing this unique and iconic unit anyway. <a href="http://www.giantbomb.com/news/dont-assume-players-are-stupid/4121/" target="_blank">Don't assume that Players are stupid</a> and won't get it ;)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh please don't link gorge structures back to p.res that's like the worst change that could happen as it would instantly boot the gorge back to the "nobody wants to play him"row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this is a huge misconception really. Nobody played gorge because the p.res cost on hydras and mini-cysts was just ridiculous, not to mention that the hydras you got for 10 p.res were TERRIBLE. The problem we face with hydras currently is that they HAVE to be ###### if they're going to be free on a 10 p.res gorge. The 206 ones were a too big bang for your buck kind of deal. If they cost p.res, they could at least be made good, and have people ENJOY using them.
This is really the biggest thing people are missing in regards to the whole issue, it's impossible to have FREE hydras on a 10 p.res gorge that are any good, if you don't want to bork balance. But upping the cost of the gorge is not desirable, so that only leaves the individual p.res cost on hydras. OR some sort of alternative like ironhorse suggested.
<!--quoteo(post=1933256:date=May 3 2012, 09:49 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933256"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think this is a huge misconception really. Nobody played gorge because the p.res cost on hydras and mini-cysts was just ridiculous, not to mention that the hydras you got for 10 p.res were TERRIBLE. The problem we face with hydras currently is that they HAVE to be ###### if they're going to be free on a 10 p.res gorge. The 206 ones were a too big bang for your buck kind of deal. If they cost p.res, they could at least be made good, and have people ENJOY using them.
This is really the biggest thing people are missing in regards to the whole issue, it's impossible to have FREE hydras on a 10 p.res gorge that are any good, if you don't want to bork balance. But upping the cost of the gorge is not desirable, so that only leaves the individual p.res cost on hydras. OR some sort of alternative like ironhorse suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody enjoys "using static defense", static defense is something people just like to plop somewhere because they want to play the RTS part of the game and they think they get "easy kills" that way. If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.
Nobody is gonna spent his p.res on static defense hydras that get basicly useless after ARC's or GL's are in the game. Nobody wants to drop static defense and just sit next to it the whole round just to make sure his p.res investment doesn't simply get sniped by an lone vanilla LMG marine at 0 res cost for the marine team.
Cost vs utility simply won't cut it in this case. Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses. But if you make them that strong you suddenly have a situation where a whole team going gorge and spending their p.res on this "strong hydra" would break the game. So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.
Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually it was pretty much standard to drop hydras in clan match or gathers when the second hive was still important. Even after, hydras were often use to protect some rts.
<!--quoteo(post=1933261:date=May 3 2012, 03:07 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ May 3 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody enjoys "using static defense", static defense is something people just like to plop somewhere because they want to play the RTS part of the game and they think they get "easy kills" that way. If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably one of the stupider notions I've read on this forum - People playing this game don't care about kills, there aren't achievements or any incentive for getting kills and noone puts down Hydra's for the sake of their score. I personally enjoy using static defense, it allows me to section off areas of the map and play tactically beyond spamming wall-jump and chomping up marines or sitting for a minute as I chew down a Resource Tower.
The change would make them the worst class, but there has to be a worse class and improvements can be made beyond that to make it better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody is gonna spent his p.res on static defense hydras that get basicly useless after ARC's or GL's are in the game. Nobody wants to drop static defense and just sit next to it the whole round just to make sure his p.res investment doesn't simply get sniped by an lone vanilla LMG marine at 0 res cost for the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would, it's beyond useful to have Hydra's positioned above Hives to prevent people harassing it to no end with a jetpack. You don't have to babysit your hydras you can help get RT's up help get the next Hive up help your, heal your teammates having free Hydra's only allows you to use them as an offensive pushing tool which is really retarded.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cost vs utility simply won't cut it in this case. Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses. But if you make them that strong you suddenly have a situation where a whole team going gorge and spending their p.res on this "strong hydra" would break the game. So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would spend resources on Hydra's to protect an RT or a vital corridor, it's much better for me to spend 20 PRes than for the Comm to lose the Resource Tower and I'd much rather spend 10-20 Res creating a Hydra Wall with a Whip behind to stop a potentially game-ending GL Rush. Just because you can't see the usefulness of it doesn't mean everyone else can't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you want the Gorge to be some pseudo-attack building spam unit, I don't want it to be I want it to be a tactical support unit.
<!--quoteo(post=1933265:date=May 3 2012, 10:23 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 3 2012, 10:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933265"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually it was pretty much standard to drop hydras in clan match or gathers when the second hive was still important. Even after, hydras were often use to protect some rts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But clan matches and gathers are not the "all end to be", many of these boil down to distributing player roles depending on the abilities of the involved players. It's basicly min-maxing around the involved players skill ;) If somebody is an horrible fade it makes way more sense to have the guy spent his res on some hydras to secure the important second hive, instead of having him play walker fade who dies on first marine contact.
At least that's how my clan and me used to handle it during NS competitive times, you don't simply tell people to do something. You give them tasks according to what they are good at and what's important at that point of the round. You don't dedicate Mr "I suck as Onos" as the mid-late game Onos and expect him to win the round for you, you make your best onos player the guy who saves for onos and give Mr "I suck as Onos" an task that's better suited to his playstyle, like re-enforcing your hive with defenses.
Imho free hydras add way more strategy and varriety to competitive style games, simply because they give the kharaa team a ton of additional options that are not "all in" tactics that completly ruin mid-late game for kharaa because they decided to go for some area denial early game. In an competitive enviorment the simple fact that you are one skulk/offense unit short on the team (because you have a gorge building defenses somewhere) can often mean a serve power difference on the map.
I'm all for adding an p.res waste to the gorge, but it shouldn't be the hydras, clogs or anything static at all. Maybe an ability that costs p.res and improves hydras/clogs, maybe the ability would deliver some kind of AoE buff to the gorge and everybody around him. There are tons of options to add something like this that would add the potential for "perma gorges" even in competitive play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody enjoys "using static defense", static defense is something people just like to plop somewhere because they want to play the RTS part of the game and they think they get "easy kills" that way. If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again wrong, static defenses are an important part of the game, and there's nothing inherently frustrating about having to fight them. They only become unenjoyable when something is wrong with them balance wirse (i.e spammable like sentries, powerful and free like hydras in 206). The gorge as he stands in 207 is absolutely trash again, had you actually played the gorge yourself you would have realised this. There's no point in going gorge early (certainly not with 2 or with 3) if your main structure is no better than a pile of goo. If anything, buffing the hydra and attaching a small p.res cost to it will make the gorge a lot more useful than he is currently.
I've already lost a bunch of games because players have gotten into the habbit of gorging with 2 or 3. In 206 this was no big deal, and at least you sacrificed offense for a notable defense, now you just sacrifice offensive power without getting ANYTHING in return. This makes the gorge as useless of a class as he was pre 204, probably even more so since they've nerfed his healspray as well.
TL;DR, people don't play gorge to (asthma) healspray buildings, or players, the hydra is the core component in 'fun' gorge gameplay. There's not much point to having hydras if they don't amount to anything in terms of defensive power. But you can't have them be powerful unless you attach a proper cost to them, or increase the base cost of the gorge (which is not desirable)
Having p.res for hydras is really no different than having p.res for mines, someone can buy them and drop them someplace, leaving them there all game until someone stumbles upon them, or you can use them 'dynamically' with your team's advance. When the game is feature complete and the gorge has all his abilities, not everyone will invest in hydras if they gorge, not to mention sometimes you just want to gorge to heal a hive or w/e.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cost vs utility simply won't cut it in this case. Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses. But if you make them that strong you suddenly have a situation where a whole team going gorge and spending their p.res on this "strong hydra" would break the game. So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not even true, how would that be any different from the entire team going lerk with that 30 p.res? I'd gladly fight an alien team that is all gorges and hydras, that means they won't have any p.res for higher lifeforms and once the ARCs or GLs come rolling in it'll just be gg for the aliens.
The point is that you can BALANCE the hydras, no matter how strong they are, with the p.res cost. So whether they are 5 or 10 p.res, if they adequately represent the utility of the structure, you will never run into the scenario you just described. It's impossible for hydras to 'break' the game if they cost a proper amount of p.res for their strength.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> May I ask what kind of enjoyment you get at dropping defensive structures that are absolutely terrible at their task? For me it's just frustrating, I've already given up on gorging, since they're no longer a proper trade-off for the offensive power of the skulk. (I generally see a team lose map control quicker with 2 gorges than they do with a full team of skulks, unlike in 206)
As long as hydras remain terrible, the gorge will not be a viable class to play. (They could artificially make him 'more needed', by for example lowering build times without gorges even more, but that' neither makes the gorge more enjoyable nor does it address the underlying issue of the gorge being non-viable.) There needs to be a proper trade-off to losing a skulk on your team, and hydras are that reason. Just buffing them again, while keeping them free however would be a serious mistake in terms of proper game balance.
<!--quoteo(post=1933267:date=May 3 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 3 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933267"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably one of the stupider notions I've read on this forum - People playing this game don't care about kills, there aren't achievements or any incentive for getting kills and noone puts down Hydra's for the sake of their score. I personally enjoy using static defense, it allows me to section off areas of the map and play tactically beyond spamming wall-jump and chomping up marines or sitting for a minute as I chew down a Resource Tower.
The change would make them the worst class, but there has to be a worse class and improvements can be made beyond that to make it better.
I would, it's beyond useful to have Hydra's positioned above Hives to prevent people harassing it to no end with a jetpack. You don't have to babysit your hydras you can help get RT's up help get the next Hive up help your, heal your teammates having free Hydra's only allows you to use them as an offensive pushing tool which is really retarded.
I would spend resources on Hydra's to protect an RT or a vital corridor, it's much better for me to spend 20 PRes than for the Comm to lose the Resource Tower and I'd much rather spend 10-20 Res creating a Hydra Wall with a Whip behind to stop a potentially game-ending GL Rush. Just because you can't see the usefulness of it doesn't mean everyone else can't.
Well you want the Gorge to be some pseudo-attack building spam unit, I don't want it to be I want it to be a tactical support unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can write a lot of "i woulds" the matter of fact stays that a decent fade or lerk offers way more defensive and offensive power then any p.res cost hydra will ever be able to deliver. Any good fade/lerk player will priotize going fade/lerk over making an p.res gamble by going gorge (10 res) and placing static hydras (+even more res) to defend an RT that costs 10 team res to build in the first place. Especially with bilebomb on the lerk it's an really hard sell to make the p.res hydras an asset that people gonna spent p.res on.
You also contradict yourself a little bit there. I stated the simple fact that an hydra not getting covered by a gorge is easy cannon fodder for any LMG marine. You counter that with the example of "you don't need to babysit your hydras, you can go run around the map and do other things!"
It feels like talking past each other here, if your hydras cost p.res you won't move away to build RT's on the other side of the map, if you do that chances are your hydra farm will be dead before you can react to an attack and get back there. In that situation all your p.res investment is gonne just because you didn't want to play "camper" and wanted to do something more usefull for your team with your time.
I don't want the gorge to be an "pseudo attack building spam unit", i want the gorge to be an support unit. An unit that's weak and vulnerable when it get's surprised on it's own. But he should have the upper hand when he had the time and foresight to setup his "combat area" in an place of his choice. He should also serve as an force amplifier when coupled with other kharaa to give him an offense role, so it's desirable to have always at least one gorge around.
The free gorge buildings at least took care of the first part, but i still think the other lifeforms could profit more from having an gorge around (yes besides healing). It would also lead to more kharaa players actually flocking to gorges and protecting them in their support role, it would put him into a role where he can actually lead a push for the kharaa team. If i play gorge i want to feel vulnerable when i'm alone, i don't want the gorge to play like any of the other lifeforms that basicly boil down to "rambo gameplay".
<!--quoteo(post=1933291:date=May 3 2012, 11:18 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not even true, how would that be any different from the entire team going lerk with that 30 p.res? I'd gladly fight an alien team that is all gorges and hydras, that means they won't have any p.res for higher lifeforms and once the ARCs or GLs come rolling in it'll just be gg for the aliens.
The point is that you can BALANCE the hydras, no matter how strong they are, with the p.res cost. So whether they are 5 or 10 p.res, if they adequately represent the utility of the structure, you will never run into the scenario you just described. It's impossible for hydras to 'break' the game if they cost a proper amount of p.res for their strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not going trough all answers but about your static defense stuff: They are not fun to play against and they are not really fun to play with. Even in the original NS that had been considered more RTS centered most static defense got considered simple area denial but not an fortified "stopping point". Static defense can only act as an HP pool/Area denial for a limited time and as such it can be dangerous to the gameplay to give too much emphasis on static defenses.
After all this is not an tower defense game, it's still an FPS game and the design goal for NS2 is to be even more of an FPS then the original NS had been. Playing around with static defense can be fun, i don't argue that. But in NS you usually have 2 choices: Have fun and mess around, or play properly by spending resources/time/effort depending on the rounds needs.
But by adding a p.res cost to the hydras you would need to make them very strong to compensate for the invested p.res, because there are other uses for p.res that are way more universal and usefull (lerk, fade, onos).
Btw you can gladly fight a team that goes gorges and hydras, but at least try it in an competitive enviorment where these gorges actually organize with the khamm and with each other. Imho throwing <b>very strong</b> hydras into that mix would seriously screw marines over because their only hard counters to this tactic would involve deeper tech like GL's/ARC's and these take time and resources to get.
You have neither if the gorge train is allready creeping forward into MS right after round start. An valid counter strategy to that would be to simply ignore the gorge train and try taking down their undefended hive before they manage to take MS appart. But it's certainly a situation that would be very likely to happen if you try to give hydras an high value for their p.res cost.
Sure you could simply price the hydras very high to prevent tactics like this from appearing early game, but then you would need to make them seriously usefull and as you increase the p.res price of the individual hydra you also increase the involved risk/reward mechanics making it more unlikely for players to spent their res on them when there are better uses for p.res around that are not static and "dumb".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels like talking past each other here, if your hydras cost p.res you won't move away to build RT's on the other side of the map, if you do that chances are your hydra farm will be dead before you can react to an attack and get back there. In that situation all your p.res investment is gonne just because you didn't want to play "camper" and wanted to do something more usefull for your team with your time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a presumption of yours, not based on any facts whatsoever. If they cost p.res they will also be stronger than they are now, meaning I can leave them alone and KNOW that they won't just get destroyed by 1 - 2 marines who happen to run by. It's the same as a sentry in that regard, they should be able to protect an area on their own, unless they get outsmarted or outnumbered.
You call it 'camping' but I would actually call it 'defending'. I.e I don't see what's wrong with a gorge locking down a corridor (leading to an important area like a res tower) and staying there if he wants to. What he's doing is beneficial to the team, since that's one less res tower up for grabs, or a pathway to the hive that they won't seize. (If that means a far away res tower doesn't get healed, so be it, just have someone sacrifice 10 p.res to gorge and heal it.)
<!--quoteo(post=1933297:date=May 3 2012, 11:31 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a presumption of yours, not based on any facts whatsoever. If they cost p.res they will also be stronger than they are now, meaning I can leave them alone and KNOW that they won't just get destroyed by 1 - 2 marines who happen to run by. It's the same as a sentry in that regard, they should be able to protect an area on their own, unless they get outsmarted or outnumbered.
You call it 'camping' but I would actually call it 'defending'. I.e I don't see what's wrong with a gorge locking down a corridor (leading to an important area like a res tower) and staying there if he wants to. What he's doing is beneficial to the team, since that's one less res tower up for grabs, or a pathway to the hive that they won't seize. (If that means a far away res tower doesn't get healed, so be it, just have someone sacrifice 10 p.res to gorge and heal it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an presumption at all. All static defense in FPS games is vulnerable to getting outplayed. Because it's static and AI controlled while a player is mobile and actually able to adapt to the situation at hand.
The simplest way to outplay static defense is just ignoring it and soaking up the damage, or bypassing the whole fortified situation or simply gaming the AI of the defense unit. Even the original OC chambers had been piss easy to take out when they didn't have any gorge support, as they had a ton of mechanic flaws that could be abused by a smart marine. And no you will never be able to remove all the mechanical flaws, players will always find ways to outplay the AI because it's predictable in it's behavior.
If you make the static defense so "strong" that even on it's own it outplays human players, then people will only get frustrated because it feels cheap getting outplayed by an lifeless thing in an game that's all about playing against other players. That's why i'm completly against the idea of "strong hydras", if you make them so strong that they can stand on their own against 1-2 marines then they will be invincible once a gorge is around to care for them. Which opens up another can of issues like early game rushes that i described above and similar.
And there is an reason why i put the "camper" part into quotation marks, i only used this term to describe the whole issue of "being locked down to the place where you spent p.res". It is an big issue, if you spent a ton of p.res on securing some corridor and the marine team simply decides to bypass your little blockade by going an alternate route to your hive, then you have just wasted a ton of res on a pretty useless task.
If you add p.res costs to the hydra you will force players to stick to them, players don't like to let their p.res investement unattended just so it get's outplayed by the enemy team. If you invested p.res in there. it's an personal investment you want to keep alive/usefull because otherwise you could have just gone lerk/fade and used those p.res in an much more pracitcal way that isn't limited to a single location that marines can simply chose to ignore.
Edit: Let's try finding some middle ground here. How about we actually add something like an "strong hydra" and keep the normal hydra free and permanent. But the gorge could chose to use p.res to upgrade hydras/clogs to an "improved state" that holds out longer on it's own. Maybe make it an second hive ability and give clogs to the gorge out of the box.
These improved hydras and clogs could also get an additional layer of texture trough the material system, so marines can spot the difference instantly. This would basicly leave normal hydras as an somewhat "spammable" area denial tool but also give the gorge the option to double down on his time investement by using p.res to improve his defenses.
In that scenario i would even agree with making them really really strong in their upgraded state.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about we actually add something like an "strong hydra" and keep the normal hydra free and permanent. But the gorge could chose to use p.res to upgrade hydras/clogs to an "improved state" that holds out longer on it's own. Maybe make it an second hive ability and give clogs to the gorge out of the box.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is certain, is that at the end of the day the gorge will need a well written manual to use hydras. I think a pdf file opening while you evolve could be a nice solution.
-> keep them free -> let them not dissolve -> adjust the hit scan to the power hydras had in the previous builds -> 3 hydras for the first hive - +1 hydra for each following hive <b>-> make them semi controllable by the gorge or in other words -> make them dynamic defense </b>
What do I mean with semi controllable?
If the creator gorge is in range (like a room) of the hydras he can actually shoot the hydra spikes himself as an own ability. I imagine it like the parasite from the skulk. If you hit with that "parasite", the hydras will also hit (when the marine is in line of sight ofc). This way the hydras do not have a fix dmg, but a scaling with the skill (aim) level of the gorge.
What would change?
- hydra dmg scales with player skill -> more fun - spamming hydras and changing lifeforms is still possible but less effective - hydras are more like an actually ability, and not just a static structure with a fix dmg - the gorge has much more tactical choices -> -- hydra placement (all hydras in one place -> focus dmg || hydras in different places -> more chance of hitting (line of sight)) -- healing the hydras (or self) or be more aggressive and attack the marines
In my opinion the hydras should be a support ability and not a way to easily gain map control. Actual static defense should remain in the hands of the comm hence costing TRES (let whips pick up rocks and throw them at marines or give the comm another damaging defense structure).
It is not possible to balance hydras as actual static defense for both pub and comp play.
P.res is by far the most simple and straightforward solution to the problem I have pointed out, sure we can try to think of really complex ways to address it, but I don't think that's going to do the game any good.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static defense can only act as an HP pool/Area denial for a limited time and as such it can be dangerous to the gameplay to give too much emphasis on static defenses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bravo good sir, you've now actually argued AGAINST free hydras yourself. With p.res on hydras, hydras ARE in fact a formidable static defense FOR A LIMITED TIME. You kill them and it's unlikely there will be a new one around the corner, or in the same position after you went back to an armory for ammo. (Because unless aliens are dominating in resources, that gorge is not going to be able to just replace all his hydra losses) When they are FREE, he can replace them at any time, and that static defense is not going to be there for a limited time but for as long as the gorge decides to bother. (Granted when they are free they will probably have to be ######, but then again no one will bother placing them in the first place)
It seems to me that you are not really arguing against p.res on structures, you're just arguing against static structures. Hopefully you'll start realising this soon, before this gets ridiculous.
I'm about to send a synopsis of this discussion to Charlie, because I truly believe UWE needs to take note and address the issue that is hydras currently, i.e they can't have them powerful AND free, and as a result the gorge will never be a truly enjoyable class. The only proper solution is to retie p.res to hydras.
<!--quoteo(post=1933400:date=May 4 2012, 04:34 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 4 2012, 04:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm about to send a synopsis of this discussion to Charlie, because I truly believe UWE needs to take note and address the issue that is hydras currently, i.e they can't have them powerful AND free, and as a result the gorge will never be a truly enjoyable class. The only proper solution is to retie p.res to hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, i'm almost positive they will change it back since it's almost universally regarded as a bad choice to make them free
Well, it's one thing for a large portion of the community to dislike a change, but it's an entirely different cup of tea when you can in fact not defend a given change from a balance perspective. You'll find that in most games, often players dislike change just because, even when the changes turn out to be good ones. This is clearly not going to be the case for this change however, as has been successfully argued by several people.
Even ironhorse agreed there's a fundamental issue with the way they are handling this, despite defending the change initially. Sure, we can come up with another mechanic to try and 'fix' the flaws that still exist in the current one, but that's likely going to serve no other purpose than to further complicate an already complex game. So far I have seen not a single argument as to why p.res on hydras is a bad thing. (provided with that p.res cost also comes a significant boost to the hydra's defensive capability from their current laughable state in 207)
Here's what I saw - UWE wanted to make gorges more viable, this was indeed needed - UWE made hydras free and really powerful in 206, gorges were indeed viable (most games had at least 2 - 3 at the start, clear indication that gorges were back) - UWE then nerfed hydras again (they had to really, can't have free hydras that are that powerful), and made them disappear if the player is no longer gorge (to address an entire team dropping some quick hydras and then re-evolving, a mechanic to cover up a flaw in the whole free hydra mechanic). Now, in 207, gorges are back to being considered useless like they were pre 206
This whole debacle is just a good example of UWE going about a needed design change entirely the wrong way (making buildings free was not a necessary step to make gorges viable). Fortunately it's a beta, and these kind of things happen, but I sincerely hope they will take note and not be stubborn, else gameplay will be adversely affected for many more patches to come. (And UWE risks implementing more complex and flawed mechanics to fix the initial flawed mechanic of free structures, like they are already doing with this 'buildings disappearing' thing... not to mention that now we're back to square 1: gorges being a crappy lifeform)
p.res is not the obvious answer to "fix" everything, especially not when we still have the issue of the game not properly scaling with bigger player numbers. And what exactly is more complex about my idea then 90% of the game? The game is complex as it is, the original gorge had been way more important and complex then the NS2 gorge ever had been. Heck i would argue that the current fade design is too complex for the majority of new players, they spent minutes saving up 50 res just to get killed in seconds leaving them with a pretty underwhelming experience for 50 res.
I also didn't argue against free hydras, i argued against giving too much emphasis on static defenses and that's exactly what strong p.res hydras would do. They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out. It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".
Free hydras would stay an simple area denial tool that's only supposed to slow down marine progress but not stop it. Adding the <b>option</b> to "buff" the hydras/clogs trough p.res at least gives the gorge more options in terms of mobility and gameplay.
Now he can decide if he wants a little bit area denial/warning system that's not strong on it's own but free. Or he can chose to lock down an area for good by actually spending p.res on improving his structures. If he didn't spent p.res then he will be far more likely to leave his hydras alone giving marines a chance to clear them out without gl's/flamers.
That's the only thing i'm arguing for here, hydras need to stay away from the p.res if you want people to keep on using the gorge. But at the same time the gorge also needs options to go beyond that, so he doesn't simply end up an "spam hydras, go skulk, save for fade" class. So giving him the <b>additional option</b> to spent p.res to improve his gameplay would add a ton of depth to the gorge gameplay. I would even argue that it would make balancing easier long term, simply because now you can have 2 versions of hydras a powerfull and a weak one. And finer variables to change usually means finer tuning without impacting too many other mechanics.
Because there is another issue barely anybody touches on, how do hydras scale over the course of the round? An individual hydra doesn't profit from additional hives, in terms of "power" they do not scale with their HP/Armor long term. That means hydras lose "value" over the course of a round simply by marines getting weapon upgrades, meaning the individual hydra will get less usefull over the course of the round compared to the start of the round. Sure it's not an giant issue that impacts balance heavily right now, but i still think it's something that deserves to be mentioned, at least if we want the gorge to be an class that's viable in all stages of the round.
<!--quoteo(post=1933400:date=May 4 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 4 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only proper solution is to retie p.res to hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As soon as you say this you lose all credibility, and the chances of finding a workable solution become zero. The only solution just happens to be your one? Please.
If you aren't willing to allow your ideas to grow and be moulded by the input of others, they will remain as flawed as you are.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also didn't argue against free hydras, i argued against giving too much emphasis on static defenses and that's exactly what strong p.res hydras would do. They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out. It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, what you are saying is, you want the defensive structure to not actually be able to defend a position? Why do we have sentries in the game then? It only makes sense both sides get access to a similar 'defensive structure'. Yet, you want to keep the hydra in its current, ######, state, because YOU don't like defensive structures that can (*gasp*) actually defend a given position properly. (Despite the fact that they would require a p.res investment, and thus be balanced)
I've already argued that you will and can not have good hydras for free on a gorge, and that as long as they are not worth anything, nobody will bother going gorge, since hydras are kind of the core aspect of gorge gameplay currently. (Let's face it. no one gorges just to asthma-heal structures and players all day, and clogcraft is a gimmick at best) You may as well take out hydras, give them to the comm and redesign the gorge if that's how it's going to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the only thing i'm arguing for here, hydras need to stay away from the p.res if you want people to keep on using the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again you have failed to provide a reason to why this is? WHY would people not want to invest 5 or more p.res in a good hydra that actually does its job? Just because you wouldn't bother with hydras, and because you seem to have an unfounded hate for static structures, doesn't make it a universal truth. I would go so far as to bet you money that if gorges were to be made better and cost p.res tomorrow, you would again see more people gorging than you do in this patch. How is that investment in hydras any different in the investment in mines marines make it 15 p.res? If the mines are actually good, people will get them. If the hydras are actually good, gorges will invest p.res in them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because there is another issue barely anybody touches on, how do hydras scale over the course of the round?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You get access to more hydras as the game progresses, that sounds like scaling to me. Even with a p.res system this is true, since more map control will allow you more hydras.
You seem to be arguing next to the issue really, it seems like you don't want gorges to revolve around hydras at all, which basically means you want them to be redesigned and receive a lot of other things to do, which is fair enough, I wouldn't mind adding some more depth to the gorge, but you can still have that ON TOP of hydras. (This way people could go gorge and NOT spam hydras, i.e hydras are an option with p.res, but you could easily provide them with some other tools so that not everyone who goes gorge actually gets hydras, they may go gorge, do some field/comm support and save up for fade in the meantime) You don't need to take out or water down the strenght hydras to accomplish this, you just need to give the gorge more worthy gameplay options, on top of p.res hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also didn't argue against free hydras, i argued against giving too much emphasis on static defenses and that's exactly what strong p.res hydras would do. They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out. It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is easily solved with a recycle mechanic, which would still be there with p.res. It would give back for example 75% of your hydra p.res, so that players don't feel like they're forced to stay in a given location.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As soon as you say this you lose all credibility, and the chances of finding a workable solution become zero. The only solution just happens to be your one? Please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not the person who came up with p.res on hydras, so it's not my solution. i'm advocating UWE uses some common sense and goes back to using an original concept of theirs that actually worked. Again, so far not a single person has managed to argue a better solution to all of the issues with hydras and gorges that has arisen since the implementation of this needless 'free hydra' mechanic... reverting and dropping the p.res prices/buffing the hydra was the ONLY sensible thing that needed to happen to make gorges viable.
Is there anybody who seriously believes this whole 'free structures' thing has proven to be a better approach than the p.res hydras? The fact alone that they've had to come up with a new mechanic to address an issue with the free hydras ('structures diseappearing'), and now have had to nerf hydras again in 207 (resulting in gorges being rare again) is absolute proof that the approach is doing more harm than good.
It's as if people never bought mines on marines, and instead of lowering the price on mines, they give 3 free mines with every shotgun purchase. Does that address the issue of the mines being useless? I don't think so. As long as hydras remain one of the core features of the gorge, the gorge's usefulness in a game is going to be tied to whether or not those hydras are actually worth something.
Xarius, have you been skipping over all the people arguing <b>against</b> Hydras costing p.res in their current state?
If there's not enough for you post-206/207, then check all the support pre-206. Without at the very least giving the Gorges the ability to defend or reposition their p.res investment (by being able to move Hydras or fully refund them), lowering the previous cost to 3-5, and removing the limit, there is no point in having them cost p.res again. Without those changes it would simply turn into an unwanted and unneeded resource sink and Gorge would go back to never being seen again.
Don't blame the playtesters for everything on this. The community on the forums <b>supported</b> the idea of Hydras costing energy before 206. After 206 hit is when other people came to the forums to start complaining about it.
The fact remains that Hydras costing p.res in their previous and current iterations is not an okay thing. They need some changes, primarily in relocation, before they can ever be considered worth costing p.res again otherwise people will continue to ignore the Gorge out-right.
The thing is upcoming changes attract less attention and can be a bit overlooked by the community, you can also think "they will realize it's a bad idea, the playtesters will complain, etc". When it's finally out in the patch people log on the forum and start complaining.
For example planned energy based medpack, it didn't caused so much debate, but I expect massive rage once it's out (rage meteo here).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact remains that Hydras costing p.res in their previous and current iterations is not an okay thing. They need some changes, primarily in relocation, before they can ever be considered worth costing p.res again otherwise people will continue to ignore the Gorge out-right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mind you, I completely agree that if hydras cost p.res again they should be recyclable. Rebirth made a valid point in saying that p.res hydras force their user to more or less 'lock down' in an area all game long. Giving them the ability to recycle would add some welcome flexibility to gorge defenses and make the game more dynamic overall.
I suppose I didn't stress that nearly enough though, but it definitely IS important indeed.
Also, I think people are not paying nearly enough attention to the fact that just because gorges have hydras for p.res doesn't mean you need to invest in them to be a 'worthy' gorge player. Ideally the gorge should be a viable enough class at 10 p.res initially, without getting hydras. At that point players can consider to play gorge as the main class (i.e lock down some areas with proper hydras, investing p.res, which means he won't go fade or onos later) or to play him as a 'transitional class' like the skulk (Heal some players/structures, help the comm, while waiting for p.res to go lerk or fade, or onos) The latter means the gorge needs some more goodies though, as currently I don't think the gorge is fun enough to play without his hydras. (Healing players and speed-building comm structures is not all that exciting. Boosting up his combat performance a little for example could already go a long way, this would you can play a gorge on the frontlines, without hydras, while saving for lerk/fade/whatever)
Well in general the Gorge feels gutted seeing as how it's missing all of it's importance from NS1 (chambers/RTs/Hive), but also the special abilities some of it's chambers could provide.
One idea I've seen floating around and that I would be very much interested in seeing is essentially a rework of the entire lifeform to be customizable based off permanent purchased upgrades. These upgrades would of course lock you into the lifeform (as you're investing p.res into it), but it would create a whole new dynamic as far as the Gorge goes. I guess sorta think co_ style upgrades for the Gorge, except a lot of it would be Gorge-specific. Such as upgrading his buildings in various ways, or unlocking new specialized buildings (ala SC/MC/DC), or upgrading his ability to build/transport/heal/etc. Basically make the Gorge an entirely customizable platform.
The idea is essentially an adaptation of another idea that's been floating around which was having Aliens pay to permanently unlock their upgrades specific to each lifeform. Works far better on the Gorge however because the Gorge is already this wierd support/building platform.
Comments
but then it's not very intuitive WHEN your structures are mature.
you can't go around checking them, or watching your clock, or nagging comm...
so there has to be a third bandaid: a timer/measure on your HUD indicating maturity?
now look back at what we have? isn't it extremely complicated and cluttery?
in ns1 gorges had to build, APART from OCs, chambers/RTs/hives, in ns2 they build hydras ONLY. and suddenly there isn't enough res?
also, when killing alien structures as marine, regaining map control, you know you damage the aliens ECONOMICALLY - if they want to rebuild they have to spend MORE RES.
right now it doesn't mean sh*t to kill hydras, they can just be remade for free. your actions as marine feel more empty.
add this to no reward for player kills making that feel empty too (as in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117830" target="_blank">this discussion</a>), and where is marine gameplay going? it will feel pointless and ungratifying imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Offense Chambers were not the main reason for the Gorge in NS1. In fact I'd go as far to say that the Offense Chamber was an after-thought when playing the Gorge. Hydras will never be the resource sink that the Alien team needs because they provide only one function and that is immobile area denial (and they're not too hot at area denial right now).
At least right now.
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+2
Bravo, Xarius, you might actually have the first real, valid argument behind why it is broken. It is difficult for me to come up with a solution right this second, but the first thing that i noticed just before you posted was Asraniel suggesting Gorge's structures lasting longer.
I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge <b>worth </b>it.
Also allow hydras to scale one or two extra per hive and wala, you will be kept busy and have a great impact, you will be worth the res, initial res wont be hurt so theres an early game, and you arent forced into permagorge.
what do ya think?
@weezl: adding a maturity % to your existing counter of how many structures you have is not really "clutter" or difficult to do?
Adding features requires GUI and feedback changes, believe it or not. Consider the implementation of Onos Charge, it has no visual feedback of any kind to let you know when it can be used again, unlike blink, BB etc. Its coming though.. and it wont be consider "clutter" or a "band aid".
Its also an issue with the feedback currently that you cant tell which structures are matured yet or not until you look at them. (hive being the more important)
I suppose this could be a solution, since you are then using 'the time it takes to mature as a balance variable. I like it actually, it's so far the only thing that would seem to do the trick.
I'm not even sure i agree with the current change of having stuff disappear when the gorge dies.
206 added the option for 1-2 players from the kharaa team going gorge to drop down a little bit of area denial for 10 p.res without hurting the whole kharaa team in mid-late game by suddenly missing a ton of resources for higher lifeforms.
This option is now gone, you either are gorge for a whole round or you might as well never even bother to gorge.
That's actually really stupid and boring, why not give players more options as to how to play the gorge?
Personaly i would love to see different options to play the gorge either as an "temp gorge" or an "perma gorge", for that we could add an ability/something to the gorge that uses up p.res. Something that perma gorges can use to burn their p.res on.
Temp gorge would be like 206: Player goes 10-20 res gorge to drop a little bit area denial/cysts and won't regorge after dying (to save p.res for higher lifeforms) leaving his hydras open to get killed without him healing them.
Perm gorge would be a player who stays dedicated to being a gorge the whole round, to make this an viable tactic the gorge get's an ability/something that he can only activate by spending his p.res. So a good gorge who stays alive for longer will be able to spent more of his p.res on this ability instead of having to spent his p.res on regorging all the time.
It would add a ton of depth to the gorge in general because it offers way more risk/reward choices for players.
In an dire situation a gorge could chose to simply die or maybe risk spending p.res to shift the situation to his favor and survive.
Sure it would be counter-intuitive terms of game design if some abilities cost p.res and others not. But to make this less of an issue the ability/whatever could be very different/obvious/powerfull compared to the others.
Let's also remember that the gorge is not simply an engineer from TF2, the gorge is way more then that. And moddeling him around the TF2 engineer would actually dump his whole charm and origin down to something hollow that lacks original meaning. The gorge is basicly the official NS mascot, as such he should deliver an unique gameplay experience that clearly seperates him from "engineer classes" known from other games, instead of simply making him an fat and slipery copy of the TF2 engineer.
Make the gorge something unique, make him different from the other higher lifeforms and please do not make him some lame "engineer" class based on other class based shooters.
Adding more depth to the gorge gameplay can easily work, players will still "get it" because they will spent time playing this unique and iconic unit anyway. <a href="http://www.giantbomb.com/news/dont-assume-players-are-stupid/4121/" target="_blank">Don't assume that Players are stupid</a> and won't get it ;)
This is really the biggest thing people are missing in regards to the whole issue, it's impossible to have FREE hydras on a 10 p.res gorge that are any good, if you don't want to bork balance. But upping the cost of the gorge is not desirable, so that only leaves the individual p.res cost on hydras. OR some sort of alternative like ironhorse suggested.
This is really the biggest thing people are missing in regards to the whole issue, it's impossible to have FREE hydras on a 10 p.res gorge that are any good, if you don't want to bork balance. But upping the cost of the gorge is not desirable, so that only leaves the individual p.res cost on hydras. OR some sort of alternative like ironhorse suggested.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody enjoys "using static defense", static defense is something people just like to plop somewhere because they want to play the RTS part of the game and they think they get "easy kills" that way.
If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.
Nobody is gonna spent his p.res on static defense hydras that get basicly useless after ARC's or GL's are in the game. Nobody wants to drop static defense and just sit next to it the whole round just to make sure his p.res investment doesn't simply get sniped by an lone vanilla LMG marine at 0 res cost for the marine team.
Cost vs utility simply won't cut it in this case. Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses. But if you make them that strong you suddenly have a situation where a whole team going gorge and spending their p.res on this "strong hydra" would break the game.
So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.
Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.
Actually it was pretty much standard to drop hydras in clan match or gathers when the second hive was still important. Even after, hydras were often use to protect some rts.
If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably one of the stupider notions I've read on this forum - People playing this game don't care about kills, there aren't achievements or any incentive for getting kills and noone puts down Hydra's for the sake of their score. I personally enjoy using static defense, it allows me to section off areas of the map and play tactically beyond spamming wall-jump and chomping up marines or sitting for a minute as I chew down a Resource Tower.
The change would make them the worst class, but there has to be a worse class and improvements can be made beyond that to make it better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nobody is gonna spent his p.res on static defense hydras that get basicly useless after ARC's or GL's are in the game. Nobody wants to drop static defense and just sit next to it the whole round just to make sure his p.res investment doesn't simply get sniped by an lone vanilla LMG marine at 0 res cost for the marine team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would, it's beyond useful to have Hydra's positioned above Hives to prevent people harassing it to no end with a jetpack. You don't have to babysit your hydras you can help get RT's up help get the next Hive up help your, heal your teammates having free Hydra's only allows you to use them as an offensive pushing tool which is really retarded.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cost vs utility simply won't cut it in this case. Min-maxers will never waste p.res on static defenses except if they are really really strong static defenses. But if you make them that strong you suddenly have a situation where a whole team going gorge and spending their p.res on this "strong hydra" would break the game.
So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would spend resources on Hydra's to protect an RT or a vital corridor, it's much better for me to spend 20 PRes than for the Comm to lose the Resource Tower and I'd much rather spend 10-20 Res creating a Hydra Wall with a Whip behind to stop a potentially game-ending GL Rush. Just because you can't see the usefulness of it doesn't mean everyone else can't.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you want the Gorge to be some pseudo-attack building spam unit, I don't want it to be I want it to be a tactical support unit.
But clan matches and gathers are not the "all end to be", many of these boil down to distributing player roles depending on the abilities of the involved players. It's basicly min-maxing around the involved players skill ;)
If somebody is an horrible fade it makes way more sense to have the guy spent his res on some hydras to secure the important second hive, instead of having him play walker fade who dies on first marine contact.
At least that's how my clan and me used to handle it during NS competitive times, you don't simply tell people to do something. You give them tasks according to what they are good at and what's important at that point of the round. You don't dedicate Mr "I suck as Onos" as the mid-late game Onos and expect him to win the round for you, you make your best onos player the guy who saves for onos and give Mr "I suck as Onos" an task that's better suited to his playstyle, like re-enforcing your hive with defenses.
Imho free hydras add way more strategy and varriety to competitive style games, simply because they give the kharaa team a ton of additional options that are not "all in" tactics that completly ruin mid-late game for kharaa because they decided to go for some area denial early game. In an competitive enviorment the simple fact that you are one skulk/offense unit short on the team (because you have a gorge building defenses somewhere) can often mean a serve power difference on the map.
I'm all for adding an p.res waste to the gorge, but it shouldn't be the hydras, clogs or anything static at all. Maybe an ability that costs p.res and improves hydras/clogs, maybe the ability would deliver some kind of AoE buff to the gorge and everybody around him. There are tons of options to add something like this that would add the potential for "perma gorges" even in competitive play.
If you add p.res cost to the gorge buildings again you will make him an "worse class" overall once again, all the "play to win" people will simply move back to saving up to fade/onos instead of having some easy going gorge time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again wrong, static defenses are an important part of the game, and there's nothing inherently frustrating about having to fight them. They only become unenjoyable when something is wrong with them balance wirse (i.e spammable like sentries, powerful and free like hydras in 206). The gorge as he stands in 207 is absolutely trash again, had you actually played the gorge yourself you would have realised this. There's no point in going gorge early (certainly not with 2 or with 3) if your main structure is no better than a pile of goo. If anything, buffing the hydra and attaching a small p.res cost to it will make the gorge a lot more useful than he is currently.
I've already lost a bunch of games because players have gotten into the habbit of gorging with 2 or 3. In 206 this was no big deal, and at least you sacrificed offense for a notable defense, now you just sacrifice offensive power without getting ANYTHING in return. This makes the gorge as useless of a class as he was pre 204, probably even more so since they've nerfed his healspray as well.
TL;DR, people don't play gorge to (asthma) healspray buildings, or players, the hydra is the core component in 'fun' gorge gameplay. There's not much point to having hydras if they don't amount to anything in terms of defensive power. But you can't have them be powerful unless you attach a proper cost to them, or increase the base cost of the gorge (which is not desirable)
Having p.res for hydras is really no different than having p.res for mines, someone can buy them and drop them someplace, leaving them there all game until someone stumbles upon them, or you can use them 'dynamically' with your team's advance. When the game is feature complete and the gorge has all his abilities, not everyone will invest in hydras if they gorge, not to mention sometimes you just want to gorge to heal a hive or w/e.
So i don't think it's an simple matter of making hydras "more usefull" before reattaching that p.res pricetag.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not even true, how would that be any different from the entire team going lerk with that 30 p.res? I'd gladly fight an alien team that is all gorges and hydras, that means they won't have any p.res for higher lifeforms and once the ARCs or GLs come rolling in it'll just be gg for the aliens.
The point is that you can BALANCE the hydras, no matter how strong they are, with the p.res cost. So whether they are 5 or 10 p.res, if they adequately represent the utility of the structure, you will never run into the scenario you just described. It's impossible for hydras to 'break' the game if they cost a proper amount of p.res for their strength.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh i rather have crappy hydras that i can spam somewhat at no res cost then i would have "stronger" hydras at p.res cost. Investing p.res is serious business as an kharaa, so giving hydras the right "bang for the buck" strength is an way more complicated balance feat then you make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> May I ask what kind of enjoyment you get at dropping defensive structures that are absolutely terrible at their task? For me it's just frustrating, I've already given up on gorging, since they're no longer a proper trade-off for the offensive power of the skulk. (I generally see a team lose map control quicker with 2 gorges than they do with a full team of skulks, unlike in 206)
As long as hydras remain terrible, the gorge will not be a viable class to play. (They could artificially make him 'more needed', by for example lowering build times without gorges even more, but that' neither makes the gorge more enjoyable nor does it address the underlying issue of the gorge being non-viable.) There needs to be a proper trade-off to losing a skulk on your team, and hydras are that reason. Just buffing them again, while keeping them free however would be a serious mistake in terms of proper game balance.
The change would make them the worst class, but there has to be a worse class and improvements can be made beyond that to make it better.
I would, it's beyond useful to have Hydra's positioned above Hives to prevent people harassing it to no end with a jetpack. You don't have to babysit your hydras you can help get RT's up help get the next Hive up help your, heal your teammates having free Hydra's only allows you to use them as an offensive pushing tool which is really retarded.
I would spend resources on Hydra's to protect an RT or a vital corridor, it's much better for me to spend 20 PRes than for the Comm to lose the Resource Tower and I'd much rather spend 10-20 Res creating a Hydra Wall with a Whip behind to stop a potentially game-ending GL Rush. Just because you can't see the usefulness of it doesn't mean everyone else can't.
Well you want the Gorge to be some pseudo-attack building spam unit, I don't want it to be I want it to be a tactical support unit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can write a lot of "i woulds" the matter of fact stays that a decent fade or lerk offers way more defensive and offensive power then any p.res cost hydra will ever be able to deliver. Any good fade/lerk player will priotize going fade/lerk over making an p.res gamble by going gorge (10 res) and placing static hydras (+even more res) to defend an RT that costs 10 team res to build in the first place. Especially with bilebomb on the lerk it's an really hard sell to make the p.res hydras an asset that people gonna spent p.res on.
You also contradict yourself a little bit there. I stated the simple fact that an hydra not getting covered by a gorge is easy cannon fodder for any LMG marine. You counter that with the example of "you don't need to babysit your hydras, you can go run around the map and do other things!"
It feels like talking past each other here, if your hydras cost p.res you won't move away to build RT's on the other side of the map, if you do that chances are your hydra farm will be dead before you can react to an attack and get back there. In that situation all your p.res investment is gonne just because you didn't want to play "camper" and wanted to do something more usefull for your team with your time.
I don't want the gorge to be an "pseudo attack building spam unit", i want the gorge to be an support unit. An unit that's weak and vulnerable when it get's surprised on it's own. But he should have the upper hand when he had the time and foresight to setup his "combat area" in an place of his choice. He should also serve as an force amplifier when coupled with other kharaa to give him an offense role, so it's desirable to have always at least one gorge around.
The free gorge buildings at least took care of the first part, but i still think the other lifeforms could profit more from having an gorge around (yes besides healing). It would also lead to more kharaa players actually flocking to gorges and protecting them in their support role, it would put him into a role where he can actually lead a push for the kharaa team. If i play gorge i want to feel vulnerable when i'm alone, i don't want the gorge to play like any of the other lifeforms that basicly boil down to "rambo gameplay".
<!--quoteo(post=1933291:date=May 3 2012, 11:18 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 3 2012, 11:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933291"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is not even true, how would that be any different from the entire team going lerk with that 30 p.res? I'd gladly fight an alien team that is all gorges and hydras, that means they won't have any p.res for higher lifeforms and once the ARCs or GLs come rolling in it'll just be gg for the aliens.
The point is that you can BALANCE the hydras, no matter how strong they are, with the p.res cost. So whether they are 5 or 10 p.res, if they adequately represent the utility of the structure, you will never run into the scenario you just described. It's impossible for hydras to 'break' the game if they cost a proper amount of p.res for their strength.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not going trough all answers but about your static defense stuff: They are not fun to play against and they are not really fun to play with. Even in the original NS that had been considered more RTS centered most static defense got considered simple area denial but not an fortified "stopping point". Static defense can only act as an HP pool/Area denial for a limited time and as such it can be dangerous to the gameplay to give too much emphasis on static defenses.
After all this is not an tower defense game, it's still an FPS game and the design goal for NS2 is to be even more of an FPS then the original NS had been.
Playing around with static defense can be fun, i don't argue that. But in NS you usually have 2 choices: Have fun and mess around, or play properly by spending resources/time/effort depending on the rounds needs.
But by adding a p.res cost to the hydras you would need to make them very strong to compensate for the invested p.res, because there are other uses for p.res that are way more universal and usefull (lerk, fade, onos).
Btw you can gladly fight a team that goes gorges and hydras, but at least try it in an competitive enviorment where these gorges actually organize with the khamm and with each other.
Imho throwing <b>very strong</b> hydras into that mix would seriously screw marines over because their only hard counters to this tactic would involve deeper tech like GL's/ARC's and these take time and resources to get.
You have neither if the gorge train is allready creeping forward into MS right after round start. An valid counter strategy to that would be to simply ignore the gorge train and try taking down their undefended hive before they manage to take MS appart. But it's certainly a situation that would be very likely to happen if you try to give hydras an high value for their p.res cost.
Sure you could simply price the hydras very high to prevent tactics like this from appearing early game, but then you would need to make them seriously usefull and as you increase the p.res price of the individual hydra you also increase the involved risk/reward mechanics making it more unlikely for players to spent their res on them when there are better uses for p.res around that are not static and "dumb".
You call it 'camping' but I would actually call it 'defending'. I.e I don't see what's wrong with a gorge locking down a corridor (leading to an important area like a res tower) and staying there if he wants to. What he's doing is beneficial to the team, since that's one less res tower up for grabs, or a pathway to the hive that they won't seize. (If that means a far away res tower doesn't get healed, so be it, just have someone sacrifice 10 p.res to gorge and heal it.)
You call it 'camping' but I would actually call it 'defending'. I.e I don't see what's wrong with a gorge locking down a corridor (leading to an important area like a res tower) and staying there if he wants to. What he's doing is beneficial to the team, since that's one less res tower up for grabs, or a pathway to the hive that they won't seize. (If that means a far away res tower doesn't get healed, so be it, just have someone sacrifice 10 p.res to gorge and heal it.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not an presumption at all. All static defense in FPS games is vulnerable to getting outplayed. Because it's static and AI controlled while a player is mobile and actually able to adapt to the situation at hand.
The simplest way to outplay static defense is just ignoring it and soaking up the damage, or bypassing the whole fortified situation or simply gaming the AI of the defense unit. Even the original OC chambers had been piss easy to take out when they didn't have any gorge support, as they had a ton of mechanic flaws that could be abused by a smart marine. And no you will never be able to remove all the mechanical flaws, players will always find ways to outplay the AI because it's predictable in it's behavior.
If you make the static defense so "strong" that even on it's own it outplays human players, then people will only get frustrated because it feels cheap getting outplayed by an lifeless thing in an game that's all about playing against other players. That's why i'm completly against the idea of "strong hydras", if you make them so strong that they can stand on their own against 1-2 marines then they will be invincible once a gorge is around to care for them. Which opens up another can of issues like early game rushes that i described above and similar.
And there is an reason why i put the "camper" part into quotation marks, i only used this term to describe the whole issue of "being locked down to the place where you spent p.res". It is an big issue, if you spent a ton of p.res on securing some corridor and the marine team simply decides to bypass your little blockade by going an alternate route to your hive, then you have just wasted a ton of res on a pretty useless task.
If you add p.res costs to the hydra you will force players to stick to them, players don't like to let their p.res investement unattended just so it get's outplayed by the enemy team. If you invested p.res in there. it's an personal investment you want to keep alive/usefull because otherwise you could have just gone lerk/fade and used those p.res in an much more pracitcal way that isn't limited to a single location that marines can simply chose to ignore.
Edit: Let's try finding some middle ground here.
How about we actually add something like an "strong hydra" and keep the normal hydra free and permanent. But the gorge could chose to use p.res to upgrade hydras/clogs to an "improved state" that holds out longer on it's own. Maybe make it an second hive ability and give clogs to the gorge out of the box.
These improved hydras and clogs could also get an additional layer of texture trough the material system, so marines can spot the difference instantly.
This would basicly leave normal hydras as an somewhat "spammable" area denial tool but also give the gorge the option to double down on his time investement by using p.res to improve his defenses.
In that scenario i would even agree with making them really really strong in their upgraded state.
What is certain, is that at the end of the day the gorge will need a well written manual to use hydras. I think a pdf file opening while you evolve could be a nice solution.
-> keep them free
-> let them not dissolve
-> adjust the hit scan to the power hydras had in the previous builds
-> 3 hydras for the first hive - +1 hydra for each following hive
<b>-> make them semi controllable by the gorge or in other words -> make them dynamic defense </b>
What do I mean with semi controllable?
If the creator gorge is in range (like a room) of the hydras he can actually shoot the hydra spikes himself as an own ability. I imagine it like the parasite from the skulk. If you hit with that "parasite", the hydras will also hit (when the marine is in line of sight ofc). This way the hydras do not have a fix dmg, but a scaling with the skill (aim) level of the gorge.
What would change?
- hydra dmg scales with player skill -> more fun
- spamming hydras and changing lifeforms is still possible but less effective
- hydras are more like an actually ability, and not just a static structure with a fix dmg
- the gorge has much more tactical choices ->
-- hydra placement (all hydras in one place -> focus dmg || hydras in different places -> more chance of hitting (line of sight))
-- healing the hydras (or self) or be more aggressive and attack the marines
In my opinion the hydras should be a support ability and not a way to easily gain map control. Actual static defense should remain in the hands of the comm hence costing TRES (let whips pick up rocks and throw them at marines or give the comm another damaging defense structure).
It is not possible to balance hydras as actual static defense for both pub and comp play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Static defense can only act as an HP pool/Area denial for a limited time and as such it can be dangerous to the gameplay to give too much emphasis on static defenses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bravo good sir, you've now actually argued AGAINST free hydras yourself. With p.res on hydras, hydras ARE in fact a formidable static defense FOR A LIMITED TIME. You kill them and it's unlikely there will be a new one around the corner, or in the same position after you went back to an armory for ammo. (Because unless aliens are dominating in resources, that gorge is not going to be able to just replace all his hydra losses) When they are FREE, he can replace them at any time, and that static defense is not going to be there for a limited time but for as long as the gorge decides to bother. (Granted when they are free they will probably have to be ######, but then again no one will bother placing them in the first place)
It seems to me that you are not really arguing against p.res on structures, you're just arguing against static structures. Hopefully you'll start realising this soon, before this gets ridiculous.
I'm about to send a synopsis of this discussion to Charlie, because I truly believe UWE needs to take note and address the issue that is hydras currently, i.e they can't have them powerful AND free, and as a result the gorge will never be a truly enjoyable class. The only proper solution is to retie p.res to hydras.
Yep, i'm almost positive they will change it back since it's almost universally regarded as a bad choice to make them free
Even ironhorse agreed there's a fundamental issue with the way they are handling this, despite defending the change initially. Sure, we can come up with another mechanic to try and 'fix' the flaws that still exist in the current one, but that's likely going to serve no other purpose than to further complicate an already complex game. So far I have seen not a single argument as to why p.res on hydras is a bad thing. (provided with that p.res cost also comes a significant boost to the hydra's defensive capability from their current laughable state in 207)
Here's what I saw
- UWE wanted to make gorges more viable, this was indeed needed
- UWE made hydras free and really powerful in 206, gorges were indeed viable (most games had at least 2 - 3 at the start, clear indication that gorges were back)
- UWE then nerfed hydras again (they had to really, can't have free hydras that are that powerful), and made them disappear if the player is no longer gorge (to address an entire team dropping some quick hydras and then re-evolving, a mechanic to cover up a flaw in the whole free hydra mechanic). Now, in 207, gorges are back to being considered useless like they were pre 206
This whole debacle is just a good example of UWE going about a needed design change entirely the wrong way (making buildings free was not a necessary step to make gorges viable). Fortunately it's a beta, and these kind of things happen, but I sincerely hope they will take note and not be stubborn, else gameplay will be adversely affected for many more patches to come. (And UWE risks implementing more complex and flawed mechanics to fix the initial flawed mechanic of free structures, like they are already doing with this 'buildings disappearing' thing... not to mention that now we're back to square 1: gorges being a crappy lifeform)
And what exactly is more complex about my idea then 90% of the game? The game is complex as it is, the original gorge had been way more important and complex then the NS2 gorge ever had been. Heck i would argue that the current fade design is too complex for the majority of new players, they spent minutes saving up 50 res just to get killed in seconds leaving them with a pretty underwhelming experience for 50 res.
I also didn't argue against free hydras, i argued against giving too much emphasis on static defenses and that's exactly what strong p.res hydras would do.
They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out.
It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".
Free hydras would stay an simple area denial tool that's only supposed to slow down marine progress but not stop it.
Adding the <b>option</b> to "buff" the hydras/clogs trough p.res at least gives the gorge more options in terms of mobility and gameplay.
Now he can decide if he wants a little bit area denial/warning system that's not strong on it's own but free. Or he can chose to lock down an area for good by actually spending p.res on improving his structures. If he didn't spent p.res then he will be far more likely to leave his hydras alone giving marines a chance to clear them out without gl's/flamers.
That's the only thing i'm arguing for here, hydras need to stay away from the p.res if you want people to keep on using the gorge. But at the same time the gorge also needs options to go beyond that, so he doesn't simply end up an "spam hydras, go skulk, save for fade" class. So giving him the <b>additional option</b> to spent p.res to improve his gameplay would add a ton of depth to the gorge gameplay. I would even argue that it would make balancing easier long term, simply because now you can have 2 versions of hydras a powerfull and a weak one. And finer variables to change usually means finer tuning without impacting too many other mechanics.
Because there is another issue barely anybody touches on, how do hydras scale over the course of the round? An individual hydra doesn't profit from additional hives, in terms of "power" they do not scale with their HP/Armor long term. That means hydras lose "value" over the course of a round simply by marines getting weapon upgrades, meaning the individual hydra will get less usefull over the course of the round compared to the start of the round. Sure it's not an giant issue that impacts balance heavily right now, but i still think it's something that deserves to be mentioned, at least if we want the gorge to be an class that's viable in all stages of the round.
As soon as you say this you lose all credibility, and the chances of finding a workable solution become zero. The only solution just happens to be your one? Please.
If you aren't willing to allow your ideas to grow and be moulded by the input of others, they will remain as flawed as you are.
They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out.
It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, what you are saying is, you want the defensive structure to not actually be able to defend a position? Why do we have sentries in the game then? It only makes sense both sides get access to a similar 'defensive structure'. Yet, you want to keep the hydra in its current, ######, state, because YOU don't like defensive structures that can (*gasp*) actually defend a given position properly. (Despite the fact that they would require a p.res investment, and thus be balanced)
I've already argued that you will and can not have good hydras for free on a gorge, and that as long as they are not worth anything, nobody will bother going gorge, since hydras are kind of the core aspect of gorge gameplay currently. (Let's face it. no one gorges just to asthma-heal structures and players all day, and clogcraft is a gimmick at best) You may as well take out hydras, give them to the comm and redesign the gorge if that's how it's going to be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the only thing i'm arguing for here, hydras need to stay away from the p.res if you want people to keep on using the gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again you have failed to provide a reason to why this is? WHY would people not want to invest 5 or more p.res in a good hydra that actually does its job? Just because you wouldn't bother with hydras, and because you seem to have an unfounded hate for static structures, doesn't make it a universal truth. I would go so far as to bet you money that if gorges were to be made better and cost p.res tomorrow, you would again see more people gorging than you do in this patch. How is that investment in hydras any different in the investment in mines marines make it 15 p.res? If the mines are actually good, people will get them. If the hydras are actually good, gorges will invest p.res in them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because there is another issue barely anybody touches on, how do hydras scale over the course of the round?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get access to more hydras as the game progresses, that sounds like scaling to me. Even with a p.res system this is true, since more map control will allow you more hydras.
You seem to be arguing next to the issue really, it seems like you don't want gorges to revolve around hydras at all, which basically means you want them to be redesigned and receive a lot of other things to do, which is fair enough, I wouldn't mind adding some more depth to the gorge, but you can still have that ON TOP of hydras. (This way people could go gorge and NOT spam hydras, i.e hydras are an option with p.res, but you could easily provide them with some other tools so that not everyone who goes gorge actually gets hydras, they may go gorge, do some field/comm support and save up for fade in the meantime) You don't need to take out or water down the strenght hydras to accomplish this, you just need to give the gorge more worthy gameplay options, on top of p.res hydras.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also didn't argue against free hydras, i argued against giving too much emphasis on static defenses and that's exactly what strong p.res hydras would do.
They would force the gorge into defending his position because he doesn't want his p.res investment to be wasted when he goes somewhere else to help out.
It promotes defensive gameplay and "camping", camping as in "being locked down to a location the whole round because you invested all your resources there".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is easily solved with a recycle mechanic, which would still be there with p.res. It would give back for example 75% of your hydra p.res, so that players don't feel like they're forced to stay in a given location.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As soon as you say this you lose all credibility, and the chances of finding a workable solution become zero. The only solution just happens to be your one? Please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not the person who came up with p.res on hydras, so it's not my solution. i'm advocating UWE uses some common sense and goes back to using an original concept of theirs that actually worked. Again, so far not a single person has managed to argue a better solution to all of the issues with hydras and gorges that has arisen since the implementation of this needless 'free hydra' mechanic... reverting and dropping the p.res prices/buffing the hydra was the ONLY sensible thing that needed to happen to make gorges viable.
Is there anybody who seriously believes this whole 'free structures' thing has proven to be a better approach than the p.res hydras? The fact alone that they've had to come up with a new mechanic to address an issue with the free hydras ('structures diseappearing'), and now have had to nerf hydras again in 207 (resulting in gorges being rare again) is absolute proof that the approach is doing more harm than good.
It's as if people never bought mines on marines, and instead of lowering the price on mines, they give 3 free mines with every shotgun purchase. Does that address the issue of the mines being useless? I don't think so. As long as hydras remain one of the core features of the gorge, the gorge's usefulness in a game is going to be tied to whether or not those hydras are actually worth something.
If there's not enough for you post-206/207, then check all the support pre-206. Without at the very least giving the Gorges the ability to defend or reposition their p.res investment (by being able to move Hydras or fully refund them), lowering the previous cost to 3-5, and removing the limit, there is no point in having them cost p.res again. Without those changes it would simply turn into an unwanted and unneeded resource sink and Gorge would go back to never being seen again.
Don't blame the playtesters for everything on this. The community on the forums <b>supported</b> the idea of Hydras costing energy before 206. After 206 hit is when other people came to the forums to start complaining about it.
The fact remains that Hydras costing p.res in their previous and current iterations is not an okay thing. They need some changes, primarily in relocation, before they can ever be considered worth costing p.res again otherwise people will continue to ignore the Gorge out-right.
For example planned energy based medpack, it didn't caused so much debate, but I expect massive rage once it's out (rage meteo here).
Mind you, I completely agree that if hydras cost p.res again they should be recyclable. Rebirth made a valid point in saying that p.res hydras force their user to more or less 'lock down' in an area all game long. Giving them the ability to recycle would add some welcome flexibility to gorge defenses and make the game more dynamic overall.
I suppose I didn't stress that nearly enough though, but it definitely IS important indeed.
Also, I think people are not paying nearly enough attention to the fact that just because gorges have hydras for p.res doesn't mean you need to invest in them to be a 'worthy' gorge player. Ideally the gorge should be a viable enough class at 10 p.res initially, without getting hydras. At that point players can consider to play gorge as the main class (i.e lock down some areas with proper hydras, investing p.res, which means he won't go fade or onos later) or to play him as a 'transitional class' like the skulk (Heal some players/structures, help the comm, while waiting for p.res to go lerk or fade, or onos) The latter means the gorge needs some more goodies though, as currently I don't think the gorge is fun enough to play without his hydras. (Healing players and speed-building comm structures is not all that exciting. Boosting up his combat performance a little for example could already go a long way, this would you can play a gorge on the frontlines, without hydras, while saving for lerk/fade/whatever)
One idea I've seen floating around and that I would be very much interested in seeing is essentially a rework of the entire lifeform to be customizable based off permanent purchased upgrades. These upgrades would of course lock you into the lifeform (as you're investing p.res into it), but it would create a whole new dynamic as far as the Gorge goes. I guess sorta think co_ style upgrades for the Gorge, except a lot of it would be Gorge-specific. Such as upgrading his buildings in various ways, or unlocking new specialized buildings (ala SC/MC/DC), or upgrading his ability to build/transport/heal/etc. Basically make the Gorge an entirely customizable platform.
The idea is essentially an adaptation of another idea that's been floating around which was having Aliens pay to permanently unlock their upgrades specific to each lifeform. Works far better on the Gorge however because the Gorge is already this wierd support/building platform.
Well... at least I can dream ;3