"Have Clogs and Hydras/etc. dissolve over time if parent was not a Gorge for ~1 min"
NurEinMensch
Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
"Have Clogs and Hydras/etc. dissolve over time if parent was not a Gorge for ~1 min"
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.
Comments
It's a good example of how UWE is trying to fix a flawed mechanic by implementing another equally flawed one. We're just going to run around in circles like this. P.res cost on gorges wasn't an issue, the cost was just too high for what you got. (###### hydras at 10 p.res each, 3 p.res per cyst, etc) They should have at least tried running with lower costs first before coming up with such a radical change.
My thought is this;
What happens if you die and have to wait 20 seconds. Now when you spawn you find Marines are pressuring the hive. You have to choose between either losing your static defense you setup or protecting the hive. If you choose to protect the hive, by the time you finish protecting the hive from a small rush, your over the 1 min mark.
But if you choose to go gorge during the rush to save your stuff, you risk getting egg killed or dying as gorge trying to get back to your stuff because let's face it, the gorge is extremely fragile and can't protect himself even from a single marine.
I'd say bump it up to say ~3-5 minutes.
This is very naive thinking, the usually rushes are with gl and/or arc where hydras are useless and gorge does not have the mobility to effective in more than one place. Not to mention gorge alone is just a useless res sink going for more than 1 gorge leads to very passive game which favors marines too much.
I can see this only as a silly turtling strat when facing opponent beyond your natural skill, and it might only work because of the mass lifeform balance problem.
The mini cysts, hydras and clogs aren't meant to be static pillars of defence which protect all your possessions. They are simply meant to be a different kind of attack method. Rather than going into melee and dealing massive damage as a skulk or fade does, the gorge places structures which allow it to support positions which are under attack, and players along with it.
If an Onos was killed during a battle, you wouldn't expect some ghost form to continue to run around, stunning marines. If a lerk was shot down over the marine base, you wouldn't expect bile bombs to continue falling from the sky. Similarly, if a gorge is killed, you can't expect his structures to remain in place, dealing damage and defending areas. Its an unreasonable request.
The mini cysts, hydras and clogs aren't meant to be static pillars of defence which protect all your possessions. They are simply meant to be a different kind of attack method. Rather than going into melee and dealing massive damage as a skulk or fade does, the gorge places structures which allow it to support positions which are under attack, and players along with it.
If an Onos was killed during a battle, you wouldn't expect some ghost form to continue to run around, stunning marines. If a lerk was shot down over the marine base, you wouldn't expect bile bombs to continue falling from the sky. Similarly,<b> if a gorge is killed, you can't expect his structures to remain in place, dealing damage and defending areas. Its an unreasonable request.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not? it was done this way in NS1 and had no problems with it.
The mini cysts, hydras and clogs aren't meant to be static pillars of defence which protect all your possessions. They are simply meant to be a different kind of attack method. Rather than going into melee and dealing massive damage as a skulk or fade does, the gorge places structures which allow it to support positions which are under attack, and players along with it.
If an Onos was killed during a battle, you wouldn't expect some ghost form to continue to run around, stunning marines. If a lerk was shot down over the marine base, you wouldn't expect bile bombs to continue falling from the sky. Similarly, if a gorge is killed, you can't expect his structures to remain in place, dealing damage and defending areas. Its an unreasonable request.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a hydra is killed it doesn't come back as a ghost either. What's your point?
In NS1, you payed 10 res for the <b>ability</b> to build. In NS2, you pay 10 res for <b>all the buildings you can potentially build</b>.
In NS1, when a gorge spent 10 res on an offence chamber, that investment was separate to the investment of going gorge. Therefore, when the gorge is killed, the OC must remain. In NS1, you can, naturally one would say, think of the gorge and OC as being two separate entities, completely unconnected. Just as the hive creates skulks, the gorge creates OC, but they aren't connected.
In NS2, however, you potential of hydras, cysts and clogs are built in to the 10 res you pay when you go gorge. Maybe 10 res is too cheap, maybe not, thats a discussion for another time. Anyway, in this case you can compare the hydra/gorge relationship to the skulk and his bite, or the lerk and his spikes. They are, perhaps unintuitively, the same thing. When the one dies, the other cannot remain.
<!--quoteo(post=1932694:date=May 2 2012, 11:27 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a hydra is killed it doesn't come back as a ghost either. What's your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bare with me here, its a complicated analogy. In essence, you cannot "kill the hydra", just as you cannot kill an Onos' stomp, or a lerks bile bomb. You can remove it form the area, but there is nothing stopping it from returning a few moments later. Killing a hydra removes THAT hydra, but it can instantly be replaced somewhere else, or even in the same location. In order to stop the weapon from attacking you must kill the life form that is attacking with it, which is why killing the gorge removes the hydra.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They gain a Skulk but they lost a Gorge. (Which cost more than a Skulk which is free) That means if they want to replace lost hydras or relocate them someone has to go Gorge again. Which is not free. The problem solves itself without any arbitrarily disappearing structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true but only to an extent. I could easily drop some hydras in the hive room and have them there all game, actually killing the odd marine trying to ninja our harvester/hive. I.e with the current mechanic, it's a nobrainer to go gorge and drop those 3 hydras next to an extractor. Especially if that extractor is a considerable length into alien territory. Essentially, like in the current build, there's a strong incentive for aliens to just drop 10 p.res worth of hydras everywhere. The gains on protecting harvesters far outweigh the 10 p.res setback.
<!--quoteo(post=1932702:date=May 2 2012, 11:32 PM:name=Rautapalli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rautapalli @ May 2 2012, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932702"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras are pretty much the only viable static defense for the alien team though. Whips are nearly useless by themselves, they just get gunned down instantly if they aren't protected by hydras.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These two points should be the primary concern when it comes to gorges in my opinion. Hydras are so important to the alien team that you would think them being free and less static would be a win win. However, because they are free, they have to be hard-capped, which is the first problem. Some locations are of little important, some are of much greater importance. Sometimes three hydras is enough defence for an area, sometimes you need more. One of the key aspects to a strategy game is the ability to scale defence or attack forces based on strategic importance. When you have two gorges, you have 6 hydras. The limit can be suffocating at times.
The next problem is dynamic nature of the hydras. You would think that changing them from static immobile structures to ones that can be moved around rather freely would be nothing but a positive, but it can be a curse in disguise. With mobility comes unpredictability. Remember that, while the aliens have a commander, he is not necessarily meant to strictly govern their movements. Basing a strategy on the fact that there are 6 defence structures in an area can be quite costly when they all suddenly shift to a completely different location.
Quoted for high truthness content.
I suppose you could argue that a player going gorge to drop 3 quick hydras for 10 p.res is no different than a marine buying 3 mines for 15 and those staying there for the entire duration of the game. Though surely 10 p.res is far too cheap for those 3 hydras, and the utility of a gorge in that case. (A more realistic price would be 20)
I don't like the idea of gorge built structures disappearing, but this is a pretty good compromise.
In NS1, gorges were essentially the alien commanders. If there was a structure, it had been dropped by a gorge. All structures had been paid for by gorges. Gorges were different to other life forms, just as the commander was different to other marines.
But that role has been taken away from the gorge, for better or worse. Because of this, it no longer makes sense for the gorge to pay for static immovable structures, because no other life form pays for things after evolving. The gorge is now just another life form, and so must behave as one. Thus his structures were turned into psuedo abilities, and now they cost energy as an ability should.
The problem is that, while the economy behind it was changed, the structures themselves were not. If the hydra is changed from a structure to an ability, the hydra itself must change. It cannot do the same thing in a different role, I just don't think it will work. Similarly, the mini cyst is too similar to its fully fledged structure cousin, and therefore won't work as an ability.
I think the best solution is to first find a commander based replacement for the hydra, and in all honesty, I think the commander should simply be given the hydra, and the gorge given something which behaves differently. I think the clog is a good role model for this.
The clog is a new object, which is placed like a hydra or cyst, but does not behave as a traditional structure does. It is completely expendable, and when one dies, it really isn't a big deal. This is because of two reasons; the first being their relative weakness. A single clog does nothing, a wall of clogs can be very effective. This is why they are not structures, because you need many of them to perform the task one of them is meant to. The next reason their abundance. At one hive a gorge can drop 10, 3 times more than hydras. This offers greatly "customisability", that is, a gorge isn't required to put all his eggs in one basket with clogs. He can put a few here, a few there, and the more he puts in one location, the more effective they become.
My modest advice to UWE with regards to the current state of the gorge would be to make hydras and mini cysts less like traditional structures. Replace them with something much smaller, but increase the hard cap on them to nearly three times what they are now. Maybe give them mini hydras, which are just single thorn sprouts (three are found on a traditional hydra), and increase the 1 hive cap to 10. This way, they themselves are far less substantial, and can be spread out far easier. Maybe instead of mini cysts, allow the gorges to physically place infestation on the ground, which withers and disappears without heal spray. That way, an ability which is free doesn't bare such a striking resemblance to a structure which costs resources.
Sorry, but 3 hydras do neither stop 2-3 marines nor delay them from killing a RT in 1 magazine.
<!--quoteo(post=1929987:date=Apr 25 2012, 08:16 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 25 2012, 08:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1929987"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Just like any class that you want to have a "meaningful", lasting impact on the direction of the game, you must continue to play it.</b> Be it a fade or lerk keeping pressure on the frontlines, or gorges in the back , or skulks ambushing in preparation. This really is fixing the previously only remaining exception to the rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1932674:date=May 2 2012, 12:37 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way you cant trust that pressure will be maintained on RTs because people all might want to go fade instead of skulk.
The same way you cant trust that the Onos will remember to stomp? or that the gorge will follow the Onos? These are player decisions that are out of your control and is evident in almost every aspect of the game? A gorge not deciding to gorge again is a choice/ lack of coordination / communication in the same way those other situations i just listed are.
And finally sentries don't disappear because they can't evolve. And they cost Res. They are not a weapon /ability for a class but instead a building much like an armory is. Also see my quote above again as its highly relevant here.
You may not see the spamming nature of the hydras being an issue - but they are and all you have to do is scowl the forums. Very ripe for abusing.
The solution of course, or rather a compromise, is to extend the life of the hydra after death/evolve along with increasing the Pres cost of the gorge. Problem with this is: it once again raises the initial starting Pres to ensure that you can gorge right away to help comm build - assisting in skipping the early game.
That argument is absurd and can be used equally fallacious in any context. "You have to stay Skulk or the RTs you destroyed will respawn".
The meaningful impact someone playing as a Gorge has is already limited to him being only able to spit, heal and drop structures as long as he's alive. It doesn't require things he has done to be undone once he changes class or has the game crash on him.
<b>This is exactly why a seperate p.res cost on hydras was perfect, you can't properly balance the cost of gorges on them having free hydras: i.e 10 p.res is SURELY too cheap for those 3 hydras, but raising the base gorge cost to 20 or more will require you to put starting p.res at that amount as well, making non gorge players able to go lerk or fade much faster than they can on for example 10 starting p.res. This on top of cutting player flexibility, by having gorge and hydras on a separate cost you can decide to gorge quickly to heal something up, without having to pay the 'built in price' for hydras that you don't want or need. At 20 p.res instead of 10, gorges would be a lot more 'restrictive' and going gorge would hurt your p.res pool quite a bit.</b>
To illustrate, it's as if marines had to pay for BOTH the welder and the mines in one package, at 20 p.res. But you may only want the welder, or the mines. Why take away the player's choice and flexibility? Reinstate p.res on hydras, you will never be able to properly balance the gorge and his hydra at an all-in price.
The meaningful impact someone playing as a Gorge has is already limited to him being only able to spit, heal and drop structures<u> as long as he's alive.</u> It doesn't require things he has done to be undone once he changes class or has the game crash on him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You misunderstood. OR you are exaggerating. I cant tell. Obviously RTs wont respawn! ...(this makes me think it was the former)
But if you wish to have an impact with that lifeform you are playing - be it comm or fade or anything else, you must PLAY it.
A better example and far more practical / realistic would be "CC wont be continuously bile bombed if Lerks aren't playing." or "Pressuring / destroying RTs wont effectively occur if everyone is fading"
The concept of "The phasegate will weld itself" is the one that is absurd. You must weld it. <u>You must partake that role for it to occur. </u>
So like i said: <i>This really is fixing the previously only remaining exception to the rule. </i>Where a gorge could play his role, evolve, then that role would continue without him. This is why its being fixed - that and the abusing of it in pubs.
Gorge's ability to have a "meaningful impact" on a game is bound by the same requirements that every other class has - you must be alive and playing that role.
<!--quoteo(post=1932748:date=May 2 2012, 02:52 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often have we heard that everyone getting enough res for Fades etc. at the same time is a problem that didn't exist in NS1 because a part of the team had to go Gorge and drop structures. Now here's the perfect opportunity to encourage just that. Increase the cost for going Gorge to 20 or something like that and let part of the team go temp Gorge to drop a few hydras and they will be another 20 res away from going Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This problem existed even with building costing pres!!
The reason why everyone can fade at the same time<u> has nothing to do with the gorge.</u>
This is called Mass Tech / lifeforms, and is an issue with the Personal res structure. (Ns1 was team, remember?)
So lets say we make this change, gorges cost 20 pres. do you really think the other 7 players wont hit 50 pres at the same time??
Res sinks are a third of the issue. Ways to earn pres is another, since time is the determining factor, and the last third is the lack of RPS mechanics to discourage a team of fades from being a successful tactic.
And finally... i feel like a broken record now given the multiple places i keep saying this, but :
Pres is not the solution, it creates problems, as you pointed out, Xarius.
ONE example of a solution would be to lower the health of the gorge and then make cara more expensive for him, a necessary expense if he is to remain on the frontlines - this would be a further res sink for his class that could equal that 20 res without hurting initial Pres!
i know i know, it seems cheap /afterthought, but its merely the first thing i thought of - my point is that there are other ways. (plus, why else do you think the lerk was slowed down? one reason is for celerity incoming. Nerfing an area to make an upgrade needed/balanced is occurring already.)
<b>It's a good example of how UWE is trying to fix a flawed mechanic by implementing another equally flawed one. We're just going to run around in circles like this.</b> P.res cost on gorges wasn't an issue, the cost was just too high for what you got. (###### hydras at 10 p.res each, 3 p.res per cyst, etc) They should have at least tried running with lower costs first before coming up with such a radical change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1932712:date=May 2 2012, 11:43 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 2 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932712"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quoted for high truthness content.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->+1
<!--quoteo(post=1932733:date=May 3 2012, 12:32 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like any class that you want to have a "meaningful", lasting impact on the direction of the game, <b>you must continue to play it.</b> Be it a fade or lerk keeping pressure on the frontlines, or gorges in the back , or skulks ambushing in preparation. This really is fixing the previously only remaining exception to the rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1932737:date=May 3 2012, 12:41 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 3 2012, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That argument is absurd and can be used equally fallacious in any context. "You have to stay Skulk or the RTs you destroyed will respawn".
The meaningful impact someone playing as a Gorge has is already limited to him being only able to spit, heal and drop structures as long as he's alive. It doesn't require things he has done to be undone once he changes class or has the game crash on him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->@ironhorse I completely agree on disagreeing with your reasoning.
totally agree this whole free-building-artificial-nonsense-change is completely facepalm-fail!
now you're putting a bandaid on it so all players don't go gorge to drop their free buildings. which is more artificial.
how about a gorge instantly and free replacing a just killed hydra?
2-3 gorges working in concert to push marine spawn with this tactic?
putting up free targets to absorb arc fire? (if it's not manually targeted)
-well, just make them grow slower...
what about players feeling tied to gorge (with increasing respool) for the whole game? how you gonna bandaid that?
"when they mature, they don't die. it's comms responsibility."?
tweaking/increasing gorge cost?
where's the logic in it being 3 to begin with? then additional 3 per hive? why around 1m? why not 30s or 2m or 3m?
see what I mean? artificial!
yeah, I can really see how the design-doc simpleness really shines through in the gameplay mechanics, not un-intuitive/complicated/frustrating at all.
let's remove the building ability from the only non-attacking class cos there's a kham now and split res systems - that is kinda ok (or not).
now let's go back a little and let him build one single attack structure - thank you for this small gift.
hey btw, remember that combat mode with that buildmenu server-plugin?
yeah, let's just remove any resource management from the gorge and have even more combat mode inside classic mode in NS2!
(actually, even THAT plugin scaled in relation to what the player did, more level-points = more buildings. I don't count more hives as an action by the gorge player)
edit: copieed wrong quote-text by mistake, it was meant to be from you, ironhorse. in ns1 you could change classes during a match without problem, what you said sounds incredibly restrictive and boring/locked-in!