<!--quoteo(post=1932772:date=May 2 2012, 08:37 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=1932748:date=May 2 2012, 07:52 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> How often have we heard that everyone getting enough res for Fades etc. at the same time is a problem that didn't exist in NS1 because a part of the team had to go Gorge and drop structures. Now here's the perfect opportunity to encourage just that. Increase the cost for going Gorge to 20 or something like that and let part of the team go temp Gorge to drop a few hydras and they will be another 20 res away from going Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This problem existed even with building costing pres!! The reason why everyone can fade at the same time<u> has nothing to do with the gorge.</u> This is called Mass Tech / lifeforms, and is an issue with the Personal res structure. (Ns1 was team, remember?) So lets say we make this change, gorges cost 20 pres. do you really think the other 7 players wont hit 50 pres at the same time?? Res sinks are a third of the issue. Ways to earn pres is another, since time is the determining factor, and the last third is the lack of RPS mechanics to discourage a team of fades from being a successful tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Increasing Gorge cost to 20 would probably just kill Gorge off completely (especially after these latest nerfs). What these Gorge naysayers who want Hydras to cost pres don't understand is that Hydras are essentially the Gorge's only offensive ability (which can't exactly be used offensively...). Hydras are never going to be a resource sink because they are unneeded for the team, unlike upgrade chambers/RTs/Hives from NS1. Sure, mass tech might not have anything to directly do with the Gorge, but it has everything to do with what the Gorge used to be and the fact that the Gorge was critical to the balance of the Alien resource system.
Almost feels as if there's a role reversal from NS1. In NS1 the p.res system worked great for Aliens due to a lack of commander and everyone having to contribute. In NS2 it works fine for Marines (who are constantly burning it on weapons they don't know how to aim with), but it's half-broken for Aliens because they no longer have anything to spend resources on.
<!--quoteo(post=1932814:date=May 2 2012, 04:50 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ May 2 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These type of changes remove my will to play...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know right? It's kind of sad to say but it's the same for me too :/
I hate this change aswell. I thought Gorge was finally taking a turn for the better when they added Clogs, but removing PRes cost and limiting the amount, and now this.. it's even worse than before. Please revert these changes UWE.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
@weezl : you quoted Nur but you used my name in that quote?? i didnt say that. please fix? Also, i'm confused due to your wording whether you agree with me or not? lol Your arguments are very difficult to follow :-/
Am I the only one who thinks this change won't really change anything? In 206 if you died as gorge your hydras were probably going to "dissolve" anyway under marine fire. Nothing changed.
Now the marines have to wait a minute if they don't want to shoot the hydras. Is anyone going to wait that long? They're still going to dissolve under marine fire, not as a result of the time.
We should be talking about the hydra damage nerf if anything, although I'm not sure that is a big issue either.
There was an endless amount of complaining on the forums about free structures in 206 until people realized they weren't that scary. I swear you guys play more games of NS2 in your heads than you do on the computer. Play the game longer to get better judgement of what are the big issues with gameplay. IMO, although he could be more fun to play, gorge isn't really one of them.
<!--quoteo(post=1932833:date=May 2 2012, 06:36 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ May 2 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932833"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I the only one who thinks this change won't really change anything? In 206 if you died as gorge your hydras were probably going to "dissolve" anyway under marine fire. Nothing changed.
Now the marines have to wait a minute if they don't want to shoot the hydras. Is anyone going to wait that long? They're still going to dissolve under marine fire, not as a result of the time.
We should be talking about the hydra damage nerf if anything, although I'm not sure that is a big issue either.
There was an endless amount of complaining on the forums about free structures in 206 until people realized they weren't that scary. I swear you guys play more games of NS2 in your heads than you do on the computer. Play the game longer to get better judgement of what are the big issues with gameplay. IMO, although he could be more fun to play, gorge isn't really one of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the main aspects of alien play, an entire class, is pretty much worthless and plain not *FUN* right now, how is that not a big gameplay issue? The fact that there's 4 topics (including the new News Update one) right now at the top of the forums with people talking about the Gorge is pretty telling.
<!--quoteo(post=1932840:date=May 3 2012, 12:45 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ May 3 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are Gorge structures beginning to die immediately as the Gorge in question enters the hive an intentional feature or bug?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously a feature. Surely something this mundane was tested by the PT's.
My biggest complaint with the gorge stuff is in pub games when a gorge fortifies an area, or cysts to a res node for you, and then half way through the game decides to switch class. Now suddenly my cyst chain is broken and my defenses are gone. I cannot blame a guy for not wanting to play gorge the whole time either.
Maybe if hydras are placed for XX time they become permanent? Same as cysts?
<!--quoteo(post=1932824:date=May 3 2012, 03:23 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 03:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@weezl : you quoted Nur but you used my name in that quote?? i didnt say that. please fix? Also, i'm confused due to your wording whether you agree with me or not? lol Your arguments are very difficult to follow :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the quote I mixed up with something else because there's no nested quotes in this forum: <!--quoteo(post=1932733:date=May 3 2012, 12:32 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like any class that you want to have a "meaningful", lasting impact on the direction of the game, <u><b>you must continue to play it.</b></u> Be it a fade or lerk keeping pressure on the frontlines, or gorges in the back , or skulks ambushing in preparation. This really is fixing the previously only remaining exception to the rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and here's why I disagree: in ns1 you could change classes during a match without problem, what you said sounds incredibly restrictive and boring/locked-in!
edit: marked important part edit2: @ironhorse if you still don't follow, please read it again (maybe you semi-skimmed first time...)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Hmm. Well first off this isnt NS1 , obviously. :-D (thats always my rebuttal to the ns1 comparisons dont worry) But to address the "restrictive" part, i consider it to be the opposite? <!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving out of him was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You see, without pres <b>locking </b>you into permagorge, you have more options. You are not needed as a gorge anymore? You can go lerk then, etc. OH all of a sudden your team needs defenses and healing? Well its cheap to go play gorge for a while, until you arent needed. Permagorge is now a <b>choice</b> of gameplay that has tradeoffs (does your team need that hydra farm that you let die when you evolved?)
<!--quoteo(post=1932920:date=May 3 2012, 05:54 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hmm. Well first off this isnt NS1 , obviously. :-D (thats always my rebuttal to the ns1 comparisons dont worry) But to address the "restrictive" part, i consider it to be the opposite?
You see, without pres <b>locking </b>you into permagorge, you have more options. You are not needed as a gorge anymore? You can go lerk then, etc. OH all of a sudden your team needs defenses and healing? Well its cheap to go play gorge for a while, until you arent needed. Permagorge is now a <b>choice</b> of gameplay that has tradeoffs (does your team need that hydra farm that you let die when you evolved?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> sure, that's one way of seeing it, there are some good aspects, but seems you're ignoring the also existing bad ones. so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing? how about "don't fix what isn't broken"? I'm sorry I talk alot of negative here on the forums lately, if/when I notice it's hopeless I'll stop caring simply. why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?
<!--quoteo(post=1932920:date=May 3 2012, 05:54 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again, its similar to the engineer from tf2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again? you must have read what I wrote about combat mode? you have played plenty of ns1, right? (why not make ns2 capture the flag while were at it?)
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<i>"sure, that's one way of seeing it, there are some good aspects, but seems you're ignoring the also existing bad ones."</i> Which are?
<i>"so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing?"</i> Didn't say this. <i> "why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?"</i> Didn't think i was, sorry? Just discussing in general discussion?
<i>"just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again?"</i> Didnt say this either? Just giving an example of a way to think of his role /class, in a way that is easier to imagine.
You kinda do shoot a lot of your arguments in the foot by bringing up that "this isn't NS1", considering this game is sitting on an NS1 base and a number of hotly debated issues are a result of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1932932:date=May 3 2012, 05:19 AM:name=weezl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weezl @ May 3 2012, 05:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(why not make ns2 capture the flag while were at it?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CTF marine vs marine would be quite fun actually.
The way I see it there's a few issues people have with gorges.
1. Stuff costing money means you spend lots of money on pretty useless stuff.
2. Stuff not costing money means the gorge is really cheap for its effectiveness.
3. Stuff dying when the gorge does makes gorge defences unreliable/unintuitive/un-fun.
4. Stuff not dying when the gorge does causes problems with it not costing money.
What about if you go sort of halfway?
Point 1 can be solved by making stuff cheaper, that way you aren't paying too much for it, the counterpoint to making it cheaper is it's really spammable, so for that, you keep the personal limits, making it so you can't spam it everywhere, but neither can you buy a decent defence for just the price of the gorge.
Point 2 stems from the fact that lifeforms operate on a cost-survivability ratio. You spend more money on a lifeform, you expect to be able to stay alive long enough to make it back. The problem with gorges is that they are, by their very nature, an incredibly survivable lifeform. They heal themselves, have quite a lot of health, are designed to operate defensively, and can build things to protect them. The latter is what really causes the problem because as a gorge, when you drop structures, you're effectively giving yourself more attacks and more hitpoints, because the structures are part of your effectiveness. The trouble is that other lifeforms can't do that, they start at max HP and damage when they come out of the egg, gorges don't, so a built up gorge is a lot tougher than a gorge running around not building anything. Therefore I posit that gorge buildings should cost something so that the gorge's price scales in line with its survivability, half a dozen hydras should cost you a bit, because they make you quite a bit tougher, nothing outlandish, say 3 res per hydra, but enough to make the built up gorge cost more than the pure healer/support class gorge.
Point 3 is a valid one I think, you do need to be able to rely on your defences not to disappear suddenly, especially as a commander and especially when using mini cysts as part of the chain, and having to stay gorge the whole game might not be everyone's cup of tea, but equally they can't let everyone else down if they're in an important area with their structures. So gorge buildings do need to be permanent I think.
Point 4 however is also valid, you can't have everyone on the team dropping 10 res and covering the map in defences for the rest of the game. I think however the small cost addition would fix that, because it's not 10 res any more, it might be 20, or 30, or even 40 res to drop all your stuff. That's a bigger investment, and one you can't make lightly, and once you do make it, well it's kinda fair that you should get something for it. It also means that once the marines destroy that 30 or so res of defences, you can't get them back without spending more money. Of course you can mitigate this for the pure gorges because they won't need to re-evolve to gorge, and they also should be able to eat their old structures to get half the cost back, meaning gorges can still be mobile with their defences but not be completely unbound from res costs.
Essentially, as a gorge, building structures is like buying mini-lifeforms, they appear, they die, they respawn later when you build another, so it makes sense they should have to pay for them to a degree, and it also means they can be permanent which is a good thing for the gorge, but I don't think it needs to cost much, as long as you keep the personal limit to how many you can place.
<!--quoteo(post=1932943:date=May 3 2012, 01:35 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 3 2012, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Stuff costing money means you spend lots of money on pretty useless stuff.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's part that, part that they're static and unmovable. Allowing Gorges to transport or refund their structure(s) would go a long way towards making it better.
<!--quoteo(post=1932950:date=May 3 2012, 05:45 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 3 2012, 05:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's part that, part that they're static and unmovable. Allowing Gorges to transport or refund their structure(s) would go a long way towards making it better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me that's part of the useless bit, they become useless when they are in a place that is no longer very helpful for them to be. If you didn't pay for them, that's not so bad, but if you did, it's wasted money.
I definitely prefer NS1 style Gorge (costing res).
IMO I think NS1 Gorge (where the gorge could not only build Offense Chambers but support structures like DC, MC, SC, etc) is a lot more fun than a "TF2 Engineer-style" Gorge.
One thing I liked about NS1 is that you could invest a lot of resources into the Gorge via building structures.
Some players would gorge and drop a few structures. That's an option (though of course it does have an economic downside compared to staying gorge full time due to 10 res cost of gorging).
However some players (me included) liked to be a full time Gorge and try to invest a lot of resources into the gorge (building RTs, then building an OC + DC around the RT, etc).
Which unfortunately in NS1, is actually not the best strategy. OCs were a bit too expensive to invest too much due to the huge risk of a single marine killing them all with a GL. Though it was still a fun thing to do even though not the most efficient.
Anyway, the point is I think NS1 Gorge is more fun to play and the way to go. It'd be neat if gorges could build a DC, MC, SC which could be weaker versions of the Crag, Shift, Shade, respectively.
Also if gorge structures do cost res again, IMO I don't think it should need infestation (infestation could provide a bonus) mainly to increase the speed gorges could drop structures and to prevent cyst sniping from potentially ruining a well build gorge fort >.>.
tl;dr - NS1 gorge more fun than TF2 style Engineer gorge IMO. In NS1, gorge was fun enough that there were plenty of full time gorges despite the res limitation.
NS1 was NS1 though, not NS2. NS2 is far more mobile, you have more base locations, more hive locations, more ways to destroy buildings for marines, less focus on defending two locations as aliens and two locations as marines.
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.
<!--quoteo(post=1932934:date=May 3 2012, 06:25 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 06:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932934"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><i>"sure, that's one way of seeing it, there are some good aspects, but seems you're ignoring the also existing bad ones."</i> Which are?
<i>"so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing?"</i> Didn't say this. <i> "why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?"</i> Didn't think i was, sorry? Just discussing in general discussion?
<i>"just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again?"</i> Didnt say this either? Just giving an example of a way to think of his role /class, in a way that is easier to imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> look, bravo, for making it really hard for me to continue arguing with you, without actually countering most of what I say. from what I understand that is the foundation of the american trial and political system...
when you feel that you can read, understand, and answer constructively/logically to the points I write, I'll be happy to continue talking... were not exactly competing over chicks here... :smiley:
<!--quoteo(post=1932955:date=May 3 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 3 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 was NS1 though, not NS2. NS2 is far more mobile, you have more base locations, more hive locations, more ways to destroy buildings for marines, less focus on defending two locations as aliens and two locations as marines.
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is a large balance issue that's affecting the game. The implementation of the Alien Commander removed the resource sink that the Gorge previously held in NS1. The results can be seen all across the first page of the forums. For one the Gorge's role is now left in uncertainty as UWE tries to find a place for it to exist. The other problem is that without a team resource sink (as it has all been shoved off onto the Alien Commander), the Aliens have nothing to spend resources on and thus you end up with a large quantity of higher lifeforms instead of maybe one person going Lerk, one going Fade, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1932955:date=May 2 2012, 08:56 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 2 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS1 was NS1 though, not NS2. NS2 is far more mobile, you have more base locations, more hive locations, more ways to destroy buildings for marines, less focus on defending two locations as aliens and two locations as marines.
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are ways to make the NS1 gorge more mobile in response though.
Some ideas:
1. I like the ideas of structures being movable (maybe with no speed penalty). Visually the structure would go into some bacterium mist or seed form and go inside the gorge. The gorge just pukes it out at another location where it could build much faster than before. (There can be a requirement for the structure to be at 70% HP or higher or something to be relocated to prevent gorges from moving a structure just before it dies.)
Another idea to add onto that is to allow the gorge to move multiple structures at once (similar to the above, the gorge absorbs the structures then can replace them anywhere else, free of charge). (A cooldown between each structure placement can be added to compensate for being able to move multiple structures at once).
2. In addition to the above, maybe gorge structures would not require infestation (though it could provide some sort of buff).
3. Or the gorge could build structures (say the gorge can build weaker versions of Crag, Shift, Shade) at a reduced cost and at reduced speed (but with lower HP and efficiency maybe). Again in this case, the structures would not need infestation (infestation could give some sort of buff though).
It's a pretty alarming situation if your main contribution to the team can be done by idling on the hive once the basic setup is done. You're basically playing a human turret factory at that point.
I think it would be most reasonable to either have the hydras either as temporary turrets that always die out after a minute or so, or have them as permanent OC style defence. The hybrid form we've got now doesn't really make sense to me, it just creates unnecessary depenedencies that limit the play.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1932674:date=May 2 2012, 10:37 PM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ May 2 2012, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932674"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Have Clogs and Hydras/etc. dissolve over time if parent was not a Gorge for ~1 min"
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
I didn't read the whole thread.
For me the problem is with that change, i dont go gorge anymore. I like to be a gorge sometimes, but not for the whole game. Now i feel like my res is "lost" if a go gorge, because all i build, will be lost when i go for example lerk.
But i think i found a simple solution to the problem.
All gorge buildings should mature, like the other alien buildings. Once matured, they stay, even if the gorge dies. Then all we need is a reasonable maturing time, like 3-4 minutes, and we remove the problem that all players go gorge, drop 3 hydras, and go skulk again.
Ironhorse, you kind of ignored my big post in regards to why p.res cost is needed on hydras, certainly from a balance perspective.
Unless you can come up with a way to have free structures, without the price of gorge being 'off' at 10 p.res, it's impossible for you to argue the current mechanic is better for gameplay.
I reiterate: - Gorges are no doubt too cheap at 10 p.res given that you now also pay for the 'free' buildings that come with the lifeform - If gorges were more expensive, you would have no need for structures disappearing when the gorge is gone, since you actually PAID a proper price for the gorge hydras (for example 20 instead of 10 p.res for the gorges. It's no different than a marine getting mines with 15 p.res, they stay around even if he dies.) - Raising the cost of the gorge, as is necessary to maintain balance, is undesirable however, given the constraints of the res model (disabling you from using starting p.res as a mechanic to prolong early game) and the impact such a hike would have on player flexibility. (It's like marines no longer being able to buy welders and mines seperately, instead they have to buy them in a package at 20 p.res, but what if you want to just weld something? What if you just want to go gorge real quick to heal the hive? At 20 p.res for example that would be a crazy price to pay for just the healing aspect. Loss of flexibility.)
It's incredibly clear to me that gorges at 10 p.res are essentially broken, and it's clear to UWE as well. But instead of fixing it properly (Either p.res cost or higher gorge cost, the former being much more desirable) they've decided to throw another flawed and confusing mechanic into the game.
Tell me UWE, what is the difference between someone going gorge to drop 3 hydras and someone dropping 3 mines? Other than their respective costs? How can we have one but not the other? Raising the gorge cost would solve this dilemma, but it would come at the heavy price of loss of player flexibility. Only a seperate cost on hydras and the gorge properly solves the issue.
<b>Nothing is ever free in terms of balance, either the hydras need to be reflected in the base gorge price or they need to receive a separate price once again. </b>
By the way, the comparison with TF2's engineer is entirely off for the sole reason that classes are not economy tied in TF 2. I.e you don't have to unlock, or pay for them in any way. Only if all classes were free in NS 2 as well would the comparison stand. You PAY a price for a lifeform, this price generally reflects how good (in the broad sense of the word, not just in terms of how many kills it can rack) that lifeform is.
<b>You can't tie free structures to an economy tied class without having to raise the cost of that class. Since gorges were 10 p.res pre-205, logic and balance dictates they need to be more expensive than 10 p.res post 205.</b> (Which will then cause an array of other problems, as mentioned above)
<!--quoteo(post=1932958:date=May 3 2012, 06:00 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 3 2012, 06:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other problem is that without a team resource sink (as it has all been shoved off onto the Alien Commander), the Aliens have nothing to spend resources on and thus you end up with a large quantity of higher lifeforms instead of maybe one person going Lerk, one going Fade, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But this happened on the marine side too. Whole teams with shotguns, right? Those might not be doing the job, but I'd call that a matter of adjusting numbers more than a fundamental problem with the system.
I really like Chris's point about Gorge structures adding damage and survivability beyond the lifeform itself, and would like to see a build with hydras etc costing res again but much less so.
For me the problem is with that change, i dont go gorge anymore. I like to be a gorge sometimes, but not for the whole game. Now i feel like my res is "lost" if a go gorge, because all i build, will be lost when i go for example lerk.
But i think i found a simple solution to the problem.
All gorge buildings should mature, like the other alien buildings. Once matured, they stay, even if the gorge dies. Then all we need is a reasonable maturing time, like 3-4 minutes, and we remove the problem that all players go gorge, drop 3 hydras, and go skulk again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> well yes, that could be a bandaid on the current bandaid. but then it's not very intuitive WHEN your structures are mature. you can't go around checking them, or watching your clock, or nagging comm... so there has to be a third bandaid: a timer/measure on your HUD indicating maturity?
now look back at what we have? isn't it extremely complicated and cluttery?
in ns1 gorges had to build, APART from OCs, chambers/RTs/hives, in ns2 they build hydras ONLY. and suddenly there isn't enough res? also, when killing alien structures as marine, regaining map control, you know you damage the aliens ECONOMICALLY - if they want to rebuild they have to spend MORE RES. right now it doesn't mean sh*t to kill hydras, they can just be remade for free. your actions as marine feel more empty. add this to no reward for player kills making that feel empty too (as in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117830" target="_blank">this discussion</a>), and where is marine gameplay going? it will feel pointless and ungratifying imo.
Comments
How often have we heard that everyone getting enough res for Fades etc. at the same time is a problem that didn't exist in NS1 because a part of the team had to go Gorge and drop structures. Now here's the perfect opportunity to encourage just that. Increase the cost for going Gorge to 20 or something like that and let part of the team go temp Gorge to drop a few hydras and they will be another 20 res away from going Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This problem existed even with building costing pres!!
The reason why everyone can fade at the same time<u> has nothing to do with the gorge.</u>
This is called Mass Tech / lifeforms, and is an issue with the Personal res structure. (Ns1 was team, remember?)
So lets say we make this change, gorges cost 20 pres. do you really think the other 7 players wont hit 50 pres at the same time??
Res sinks are a third of the issue. Ways to earn pres is another, since time is the determining factor, and the last third is the lack of RPS mechanics to discourage a team of fades from being a successful tactic.
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Increasing Gorge cost to 20 would probably just kill Gorge off completely (especially after these latest nerfs). What these Gorge naysayers who want Hydras to cost pres don't understand is that Hydras are essentially the Gorge's only offensive ability (which can't exactly be used offensively...). Hydras are never going to be a resource sink because they are unneeded for the team, unlike upgrade chambers/RTs/Hives from NS1. Sure, mass tech might not have anything to directly do with the Gorge, but it has everything to do with what the Gorge used to be and the fact that the Gorge was critical to the balance of the Alien resource system.
Almost feels as if there's a role reversal from NS1. In NS1 the p.res system worked great for Aliens due to a lack of commander and everyone having to contribute. In NS2 it works fine for Marines (who are constantly burning it on weapons they don't know how to aim with), but it's half-broken for Aliens because they no longer have anything to spend resources on.
I know right? It's kind of sad to say but it's the same for me too :/
I hate this change aswell. I thought Gorge was finally taking a turn for the better when they added Clogs, but removing PRes cost and limiting the amount, and now this.. it's even worse than before. Please revert these changes UWE.
Also, i'm confused due to your wording whether you agree with me or not? lol
Your arguments are very difficult to follow :-/
Now the marines have to wait a minute if they don't want to shoot the hydras. Is anyone going to wait that long? They're still going to dissolve under marine fire, not as a result of the time.
We should be talking about the hydra damage nerf if anything, although I'm not sure that is a big issue either.
There was an endless amount of complaining on the forums about free structures in 206 until people realized they weren't that scary. I swear you guys play more games of NS2 in your heads than you do on the computer. Play the game longer to get better judgement of what are the big issues with gameplay. IMO, although he could be more fun to play, gorge isn't really one of them.
Now the marines have to wait a minute if they don't want to shoot the hydras. Is anyone going to wait that long? They're still going to dissolve under marine fire, not as a result of the time.
We should be talking about the hydra damage nerf if anything, although I'm not sure that is a big issue either.
There was an endless amount of complaining on the forums about free structures in 206 until people realized they weren't that scary. I swear you guys play more games of NS2 in your heads than you do on the computer. Play the game longer to get better judgement of what are the big issues with gameplay. IMO, although he could be more fun to play, gorge isn't really one of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One of the main aspects of alien play, an entire class, is pretty much worthless and plain not *FUN* right now, how is that not a big gameplay issue?
The fact that there's 4 topics (including the new News Update one) right now at the top of the forums with people talking about the Gorge is pretty telling.
Obviously a feature. Surely something this mundane was tested by the PT's.
Maybe if hydras are placed for XX time they become permanent? Same as cysts?
Also, i'm confused due to your wording whether you agree with me or not? lol
Your arguments are very difficult to follow :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the quote I mixed up with something else because there's no nested quotes in this forum:
<!--quoteo(post=1932733:date=May 3 2012, 12:32 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like any class that you want to have a "meaningful", lasting impact on the direction of the game, <u><b>you must continue to play it.</b></u> Be it a fade or lerk keeping pressure on the frontlines, or gorges in the back , or skulks ambushing in preparation. This really is fixing the previously only remaining exception to the rule.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and here's why I disagree: in ns1 you could change classes during a match without problem, what you said sounds incredibly restrictive and boring/locked-in!
edit: marked important part
edit2: @ironhorse if you still don't follow, please read it again (maybe you semi-skimmed first time...)
But to address the "restrictive" part, i consider it to be the opposite?
<!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 29 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i like the idea of dropping into his role when needed, and then dropping out if needed. <b>Then make his impact / contributions so needed and useful that evolving out of him was a choice of luxury / lack of need for gorge anymore in the round.</b> So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, without pres <b>locking </b>you into permagorge, you have more options. You are not needed as a gorge anymore? You can go lerk then, etc. OH all of a sudden your team needs defenses and healing? Well its cheap to go play gorge for a while, until you arent needed. Permagorge is now a <b>choice</b> of gameplay that has tradeoffs (does your team need that hydra farm that you let die when you evolved?)
Once again, its similar to the engineer from tf2.
But to address the "restrictive" part, i consider it to be the opposite?
You see, without pres <b>locking </b>you into permagorge, you have more options. You are not needed as a gorge anymore? You can go lerk then, etc. OH all of a sudden your team needs defenses and healing? Well its cheap to go play gorge for a while, until you arent needed. Permagorge is now a <b>choice</b> of gameplay that has tradeoffs (does your team need that hydra farm that you let die when you evolved?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sure, that's one way of seeing it, there are some good aspects, but seems you're ignoring the also existing bad ones.
so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing?
how about "don't fix what isn't broken"?
I'm sorry I talk alot of negative here on the forums lately, if/when I notice it's hopeless I'll stop caring simply.
why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?
<!--quoteo(post=1932920:date=May 3 2012, 05:54 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 3 2012, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once again, its similar to the engineer from tf2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again?
you must have read what I wrote about combat mode? you have played plenty of ns1, right?
(why not make ns2 capture the flag while were at it?)
Which are?
<i>"so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing?"</i>
Didn't say this.
<i>
"why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?"</i>
Didn't think i was, sorry? Just discussing in general discussion?
<i>"just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again?"</i>
Didnt say this either? Just giving an example of a way to think of his role /class, in a way that is easier to imagine.
You kinda do shoot a lot of your arguments in the foot by bringing up that "this isn't NS1", considering this game is sitting on an NS1 base and a number of hotly debated issues are a result of that.
Just sayin'... >.>
CTF marine vs marine would be quite fun actually.
The way I see it there's a few issues people have with gorges.
1. Stuff costing money means you spend lots of money on pretty useless stuff.
2. Stuff not costing money means the gorge is really cheap for its effectiveness.
3. Stuff dying when the gorge does makes gorge defences unreliable/unintuitive/un-fun.
4. Stuff not dying when the gorge does causes problems with it not costing money.
What about if you go sort of halfway?
Point 1 can be solved by making stuff cheaper, that way you aren't paying too much for it, the counterpoint to making it cheaper is it's really spammable, so for that, you keep the personal limits, making it so you can't spam it everywhere, but neither can you buy a decent defence for just the price of the gorge.
Point 2 stems from the fact that lifeforms operate on a cost-survivability ratio. You spend more money on a lifeform, you expect to be able to stay alive long enough to make it back. The problem with gorges is that they are, by their very nature, an incredibly survivable lifeform. They heal themselves, have quite a lot of health, are designed to operate defensively, and can build things to protect them. The latter is what really causes the problem because as a gorge, when you drop structures, you're effectively giving yourself more attacks and more hitpoints, because the structures are part of your effectiveness. The trouble is that other lifeforms can't do that, they start at max HP and damage when they come out of the egg, gorges don't, so a built up gorge is a lot tougher than a gorge running around not building anything. Therefore I posit that gorge buildings should cost something so that the gorge's price scales in line with its survivability, half a dozen hydras should cost you a bit, because they make you quite a bit tougher, nothing outlandish, say 3 res per hydra, but enough to make the built up gorge cost more than the pure healer/support class gorge.
Point 3 is a valid one I think, you do need to be able to rely on your defences not to disappear suddenly, especially as a commander and especially when using mini cysts as part of the chain, and having to stay gorge the whole game might not be everyone's cup of tea, but equally they can't let everyone else down if they're in an important area with their structures. So gorge buildings do need to be permanent I think.
Point 4 however is also valid, you can't have everyone on the team dropping 10 res and covering the map in defences for the rest of the game. I think however the small cost addition would fix that, because it's not 10 res any more, it might be 20, or 30, or even 40 res to drop all your stuff. That's a bigger investment, and one you can't make lightly, and once you do make it, well it's kinda fair that you should get something for it. It also means that once the marines destroy that 30 or so res of defences, you can't get them back without spending more money. Of course you can mitigate this for the pure gorges because they won't need to re-evolve to gorge, and they also should be able to eat their old structures to get half the cost back, meaning gorges can still be mobile with their defences but not be completely unbound from res costs.
Essentially, as a gorge, building structures is like buying mini-lifeforms, they appear, they die, they respawn later when you build another, so it makes sense they should have to pay for them to a degree, and it also means they can be permanent which is a good thing for the gorge, but I don't think it needs to cost much, as long as you keep the personal limit to how many you can place.
It's part that, part that they're static and unmovable. Allowing Gorges to transport or refund their structure(s) would go a long way towards making it better.
To me that's part of the useless bit, they become useless when they are in a place that is no longer very helpful for them to be. If you didn't pay for them, that's not so bad, but if you did, it's wasted money.
IMO I think NS1 Gorge (where the gorge could not only build Offense Chambers but support structures like DC, MC, SC, etc) is a lot more fun than a "TF2 Engineer-style" Gorge.
One thing I liked about NS1 is that you could invest a lot of resources into the Gorge via building structures.
Some players would gorge and drop a few structures. That's an option (though of course it does have an economic downside compared to staying gorge full time due to 10 res cost of gorging).
However some players (me included) liked to be a full time Gorge and try to invest a lot of resources into the gorge (building RTs, then building an OC + DC around the RT, etc).
Which unfortunately in NS1, is actually not the best strategy. OCs were a bit too expensive to invest too much due to the huge risk of a single marine killing them all with a GL. Though it was still a fun thing to do even though not the most efficient.
Anyway, the point is I think NS1 Gorge is more fun to play and the way to go. It'd be neat if gorges could build a DC, MC, SC which could be weaker versions of the Crag, Shift, Shade, respectively.
Also if gorge structures do cost res again, IMO I don't think it should need infestation (infestation could provide a bonus) mainly to increase the speed gorges could drop structures and to prevent cyst sniping from potentially ruining a well build gorge fort >.>.
tl;dr - NS1 gorge more fun than TF2 style Engineer gorge IMO. In NS1, gorge was fun enough that there were plenty of full time gorges despite the res limitation.
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.
Which are?
<i>"so since this isn't ns1 there needs to be changes just for the sake of changing?"</i>
Didn't say this.
<i>
"why are you so defensive about alot of stuff that I say anyway?"</i>
Didn't think i was, sorry? Just discussing in general discussion?
<i>"just because it works in A GAME doesn't automatically mean it fits in NS, what kind of logic is that again?"</i>
Didnt say this either? Just giving an example of a way to think of his role /class, in a way that is easier to imagine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
look, bravo, for making it really hard for me to continue arguing with you, without actually countering most of what I say.
from what I understand that is the foundation of the american trial and political system...
when you feel that you can read, understand, and answer constructively/logically to the points I write, I'll be happy to continue talking...
were not exactly competing over chicks here... :smiley:
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is a large balance issue that's affecting the game. The implementation of the Alien Commander removed the resource sink that the Gorge previously held in NS1. The results can be seen all across the first page of the forums. For one the Gorge's role is now left in uncertainty as UWE tries to find a place for it to exist. The other problem is that without a team resource sink (as it has all been shoved off onto the Alien Commander), the Aliens have nothing to spend resources on and thus you end up with a large quantity of higher lifeforms instead of maybe one person going Lerk, one going Fade, etc.
Gorges in NS1 were mostly about building bases, bases you were going to defend to the death and which probably weren't going to see that much action, gorges in NS2 can't be focused on that because that mechanic doesn't exist any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are ways to make the NS1 gorge more mobile in response though.
Some ideas:
1. I like the ideas of structures being movable (maybe with no speed penalty). Visually the structure would go into some bacterium mist or seed form and go inside the gorge. The gorge just pukes it out at another location where it could build much faster than before. (There can be a requirement for the structure to be at 70% HP or higher or something to be relocated to prevent gorges from moving a structure just before it dies.)
Another idea to add onto that is to allow the gorge to move multiple structures at once (similar to the above, the gorge absorbs the structures then can replace them anywhere else, free of charge). (A cooldown between each structure placement can be added to compensate for being able to move multiple structures at once).
2. In addition to the above, maybe gorge structures would not require infestation (though it could provide some sort of buff).
3. Or the gorge could build structures (say the gorge can build weaker versions of Crag, Shift, Shade) at a reduced cost and at reduced speed (but with lower HP and efficiency maybe). Again in this case, the structures would not need infestation (infestation could give some sort of buff though).
I think it would be most reasonable to either have the hydras either as temporary turrets that always die out after a minute or so, or have them as permanent OC style defence. The hybrid form we've got now doesn't really make sense to me, it just creates unnecessary depenedencies that limit the play.
I really dislike this change. It forces you to stay Gorge if you want to have a lasting impact with your structures. The comparison to other games such as TF2 isn't valid imo because unlike there you actually have to pay with pres in NS2 if you want to change class. It also adds an element of uncertainty that's hard to deal with because you can never trust if a clog or hydra will stay because the player who dropped them might die and not re-Gorge, or chose to go Fade, or leave the game for any reason. It's inconsistent with the Gorge in NS1 and inconsistent with other classes in NS2. Mines don't disappear when the owner quits. Sentries don't dissappear when the commander logs out.
The only reason I see why it was added is the fact that people can go Gorge, drop a couple hydras for free and go Skulk again. Which tbh I don't see as much of a problem. I haven't seen a single instance in 206 where this resulted in an unfair advantage. More so I would increase the costs for going Gorge a bit and encourage this behavior so it acts as a pres sink.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Fully agreed.
For me the problem is with that change, i dont go gorge anymore. I like to be a gorge sometimes, but not for the whole game. Now i feel like my res is "lost" if a go gorge, because all i build, will be lost when i go for example lerk.
But i think i found a simple solution to the problem.
All gorge buildings should mature, like the other alien buildings. Once matured, they stay, even if the gorge dies. Then all we need is a reasonable maturing time, like 3-4 minutes, and we remove the problem that all players go gorge, drop 3 hydras, and go skulk again.
Unless you can come up with a way to have free structures, without the price of gorge being 'off' at 10 p.res, it's impossible for you to argue the current mechanic is better for gameplay.
I reiterate:
- Gorges are no doubt too cheap at 10 p.res given that you now also pay for the 'free' buildings that come with the lifeform
- If gorges were more expensive, you would have no need for structures disappearing when the gorge is gone, since you actually PAID a proper price for the gorge hydras (for example 20 instead of 10 p.res for the gorges. It's no different than a marine getting mines with 15 p.res, they stay around even if he dies.)
- Raising the cost of the gorge, as is necessary to maintain balance, is undesirable however, given the constraints of the res model (disabling you from using starting p.res as a mechanic to prolong early game) and the impact such a hike would have on player flexibility. (It's like marines no longer being able to buy welders and mines seperately, instead they have to buy them in a package at 20 p.res, but what if you want to just weld something? What if you just want to go gorge real quick to heal the hive? At 20 p.res for example that would be a crazy price to pay for just the healing aspect. Loss of flexibility.)
It's incredibly clear to me that gorges at 10 p.res are essentially broken, and it's clear to UWE as well. But instead of fixing it properly (Either p.res cost or higher gorge cost, the former being much more desirable) they've decided to throw another flawed and confusing mechanic into the game.
Tell me UWE, what is the difference between someone going gorge to drop 3 hydras and someone dropping 3 mines? Other than their respective costs? How can we have one but not the other? Raising the gorge cost would solve this dilemma, but it would come at the heavy price of loss of player flexibility. Only a seperate cost on hydras and the gorge properly solves the issue.
<b>Nothing is ever free in terms of balance, either the hydras need to be reflected in the base gorge price or they need to receive a separate price once again. </b>
<b>You can't tie free structures to an economy tied class without having to raise the cost of that class. Since gorges were 10 p.res pre-205, logic and balance dictates they need to be more expensive than 10 p.res post 205.</b> (Which will then cause an array of other problems, as mentioned above)
But this happened on the marine side too. Whole teams with shotguns, right? Those might not be doing the job, but I'd call that a matter of adjusting numbers more than a fundamental problem with the system.
I really like Chris's point about Gorge structures adding damage and survivability beyond the lifeform itself, and would like to see a build with hydras etc costing res again but much less so.
For me the problem is with that change, i dont go gorge anymore. I like to be a gorge sometimes, but not for the whole game. Now i feel like my res is "lost" if a go gorge, because all i build, will be lost when i go for example lerk.
But i think i found a simple solution to the problem.
All gorge buildings should mature, like the other alien buildings. Once matured, they stay, even if the gorge dies. Then all we need is a reasonable maturing time, like 3-4 minutes, and we remove the problem that all players go gorge, drop 3 hydras, and go skulk again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well yes, that could be a bandaid on the current bandaid.
but then it's not very intuitive WHEN your structures are mature.
you can't go around checking them, or watching your clock, or nagging comm...
so there has to be a third bandaid: a timer/measure on your HUD indicating maturity?
now look back at what we have? isn't it extremely complicated and cluttery?
in ns1 gorges had to build, APART from OCs, chambers/RTs/hives, in ns2 they build hydras ONLY. and suddenly there isn't enough res?
also, when killing alien structures as marine, regaining map control, you know you damage the aliens ECONOMICALLY - if they want to rebuild they have to spend MORE RES.
right now it doesn't mean sh*t to kill hydras, they can just be remade for free. your actions as marine feel more empty.
add this to no reward for player kills making that feel empty too (as in <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117830" target="_blank">this discussion</a>), and where is marine gameplay going? it will feel pointless and ungratifying imo.