Well, they've clearly stated they want him to be a proper combat-engineer type class. In most games a combat-engineer has a shotgun and can easily stand his ground in close quarters. In NS 2 however, there's very little 'combat' to the gorge. You die in 1 clip, you're slow, and you can barely deal any damage. The healspray nerf only made this problem more apparent.
If they would just buff the 'combat' aspect of the gorge, you would already see him played more as a 'transitional class'. i.e supporting his teammates/comm while actually being able to support an offense or defense, without getting hydras and while saving for lerk/fade/onos. I'm absolutely sure that'd make him a lot more fun to play in general as well, and add a lot more depth to the class. Make those hydras an option for gorge players who truly want to assist their team in locking down an area (in the same way a marine can opt to get mines), but not essential to gorge gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1933463:date=May 4 2012, 09:01 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 4 2012, 09:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, they've clearly stated they want him to be a proper combat-engineer type class. In most games a combat-engineer has a shotgun and can easily stand his ground in close quarters. In NS 2 however, there's very little 'combat' to the gorge. You die in 1 clip, you're slow, and you can barely deal any damage. The healspray nerf only made this problem more apparent.
If they would just buff the 'combat' aspect of the gorge, you would already see him played more as a 'transitional class'. i.e supporting his teammates/comm while actually being able to support an offense or defense, without getting hydras and while saving for lerk/fade/onos. I'm absolutely sure that'd make him a lot more fun to play in general as well, and add a lot more depth to the class. Make those hydras an option for gorge players who truly want to assist their team in locking down an area (in the same way a marine can opt to get mines), but not essential to gorge gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, Gorge has a decent amount of health. But, his movement is entirely predictable so it's easy to trail him while spraying and take him out with a single LMG clip, you normally have time to lay out at least 3 clips even if you're terrible at aiming or he's got carapace because he's gonna struggle to hit you with spit and healspray does a small amount of damage.
If Gorge had more armor (damage reduction per bullet) so that LMG was less effective vs. the Gorge and spits projectile was larger so that it was easier to aim they would be better suited to combating single marines or running away.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1933425:date=May 4 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 4 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933425"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Even ironhorse agreed there's a fundamental issue with the way they are handling this, despite defending the change initially. Sure, we can come up with another mechanic to try and 'fix' the flaws that still exist in the current one, but that's likely going to serve no other purpose than to further complicate an already complex game. So far I have seen not a single argument as to why p.res on hydras is a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> wait what happened I thought we found a way to make it work for everyone?? How does the fix we agreed on sound complicated at all? Its intuitive and is a great compromise with zero flaws??
Also I have provided plenty of arguments of why pres is a bad thing and the issues it brings in the other free gorge thread. Considering we now have a flawless way of implementing it, why do we need the issue laden pres system back? You should be sending charlie the proposed fix, not the argument for reverting to a broken system.
<!--quoteo(post=1933438:date=May 4 2012, 02:13 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ May 4 2012, 02:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, what you are saying is, you want the defensive structure to not actually be able to defend a position? Why do we have sentries in the game then? It only makes sense both sides get access to a similar 'defensive structure'. Yet, you want to keep the hydra in its current, ######, state, because YOU don't like defensive structures that can (*gasp*) actually defend a given position properly. (Despite the fact that they would require a p.res investment, and thus be balanced)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Would you please stop twisting my argument by misinterpreting what i'm writing? I never said anything about "defensive structures not being able to defend", i'm arguing for the case that any static defense need to be properly balanced all around so they don't end up too strong or too weak for their cost. Even your Sentry example shows how the whole p.res hydra logic still flies out of the window.
With smart placement you can use 2 sentries to cover each other and the powernode, making them practicaly IMPOSSIBLE to kill for the base kharaa unit the skulk even if no marine is present or the commander doesn't pay any attention.
Now try to apply that logic to the hydra, how many hydras do you need to make them impossible to kill for the base marine units the LMG marine? And remember: No gorge or alien players allowed to intervene.
Maybe this little scenario will finnaly help you understand where i'm coming from here and what kind of issues you gonna run into if you want to make an "<b>strong</b> p.res hydra" among the lines of an sentry (after all you just put the 2 of them into the same group to make an point). But i'm kinda shocked i have to make this simple difference between the hydra and the sentry obvious to you. After all you are the one arguing for "balance" here....
I also never said i "want to keep the hydra in the current state", i've delivered alternative ideas as to how to implement an p.res sink to the gorge without making it simply the hydras. But you keep ignoring that point because you assume i'm arguing "for" or "against" any specific change here because it "offended me personaly".
No offense but tbh i'm getting tired of "discussing" with you, it seems like you only read what you want to read. It doesn't help to throw an small ad hominem in there by claiming i'm arguing only for "my personal taste" here like i'm some kind of idiot. I spent serious time typing out these post and try to stick to logical arguments that base on each other. So at this point i'm just gonna call it quits. By now we are just "arguing in circles" and that's an waste of time for both of us.
I still heavily disagree that they need to cost p.res no matter what, because there are plenty of other options to handle the "gorge issue" and there are tons of more options to handle overall team "balance". Let's also not forget that balance will always stay an mostly subjective term/state, so imho it's an somewhat hollow argument for/against a specific change.
But as long as you keep sticking to your "balance is ruined, they need to cost p.res no matter what" mantra this won't even remotley work. You can't base your balance argument soley on res cost and it's impact on the overall metagame like that. It ain't that easy as the above sentry vs hydra example should have shown you, balance is not just an simple issue of "adding up numbers", adding up numbers is only a tool to get a raw impression of overall meta balance in extreme situations.
Why not give the gorges both options? X number of temp hydras may be placed for free, but if they walk up to a hydra (even one they don't own) and USE it, they spend 5 or somesuch PRes and it becomes a permahydra, freeing up a temp slot for whoever owned that hydra and no longer dissolving a minute after they stop being a gorge. Now the people who want temp hydras are happy, and the ones who want permahydras are happy, because both options are there.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
IMHO, if we want the gorge to be on the front lines building where needed instead of laming things up permanently, minicysts need to be able to live independently of the hive or eliminated. Let Gorge structures produce their own infestation and be put anywhere.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1933489:date=May 4 2012, 06:43 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 4 2012, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait what happened I thought we found a way to make it work for everyone?? How does the fix we agreed on sound complicated at all? Its intuitive and is a great compromise with zero flaws??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you do a very short bullet point of this miracle solution, I think I missed it. There's so many posts on the subject, thx!
<!--quoteo(post=1933508:date=May 4 2012, 08:59 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ May 4 2012, 08:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes! Ninja-ing needs to be brought back.
Well rines already have that with their power packs, and it works well IMO.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1933537:date=May 4 2012, 02:25 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ May 4 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes! Ninja-ing needs to be brought back.
Well rines already have that with their power packs, and it works well IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thinking about it more, this would make for a wonderful reason for both the gorge and the gardener (commander) to exist! Gorges can ninja, the gardener can't.
The reason given for moving them off pres in the first place was a design principle about the scope of pres use and benefits (individual vs team). Since Hydras are seen as something that should theoretically cost tres according to that principle, but another design principle states that non-Commander players shouldn't spend tres directly, how about this as a compromise:
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.
<!--quoteo(post=1933508:date=May 5 2012, 05:59 AM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ May 5 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO, if we want the gorge to be on the front lines building where needed instead of laming things up permanently, minicysts need to be able to live independently of the hive or eliminated. Let Gorge structures produce their own infestation and be put anywhere.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This idea has been bought up countless amount of times but it's constantly ignored for no good reason and stupid solutions like we see in 207 are implemented...
It's gotten to a point I just don't care about NS2 anymore each patch seems to be more descrtutive to what made NS1 great to begin with...
<!--quoteo(post=1933508:date=May 4 2012, 07:59 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ May 4 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO, if we want the gorge to be on the front lines building where needed instead of laming things up permanently, minicysts need to be able to live independently of the hive or eliminated. Let Gorge structures produce their own infestation and be put anywhere.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah i really really like this! But i think just making gorge buildings spread infestation and seperating the minicysts from the infestation network would feel kinda confusing in terms of game logic. Some cysts stay alive on their own while others don't? Infestation growing out of buildings while they usually grow out of infestation? The other issue would be that it would too easily render the whole "cyst chain" mechanic useless, as soon as there are few mini cysts spread around the map it would be pointless for marines to try to cut off any part of the infestation network.
How about the gorge get's to build a kharaa version of the marine powerpack? Something like an "infestation hub" it could cost p.res and would basicly act like a small hive to the infestation/cyst network. It could be used to "ninja"/make quick forward bases or simply to make cyst networks way more resilant against chain breaks. To give it some more overall utility the khamm could spent t.res on such a structure to upgrade it in some way which would lead to some gorge/khamm interaction.
<!--quoteo(post=1933532:date=May 4 2012, 07:12 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 4 2012, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you do a very short bullet point of this miracle solution, I think I missed it. There's so many posts on the subject, thx!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm kinda scratching my head on that. Ironhorse is referring to a post he made where he suggested Hydras mature and scale.
Actually i didnt like the idea at all that gorges have hydras in the first place - hydras are a defensive unit, similar to sentrys - they should cost tres(mines should too btw), and they should be a commander ability => affect your tech economy, since they are units that can defend stuff without needing players to support them. (ofc they dont have a huge lifetime alone, tho it increases a lot if they have - gorges and crags to heal them, whips to counter gls, and other lifeforms that will have it much easier to deal with attacking forces)
The problem is we are missing also tres dumps on commanders, so currently at some point in ns2 you would just start to spam units. (like we already see sentrys, whips etc.) => we got a big problem in the res system of ns2, i have said it thousands of times and other ppl too.
Whatever,
Hydras, Clogs might be something nice to have, you ahould have to choose to either build this stuff OR save up for a higher lifeform only using the weapons you have. (=> requires pres costs, recycleable hydras(just take and replace somewhere else, not getting back of resources) with unlimited lifetime as long as they have infestation)
Bilebomb was very good on the gorge, you had lots of uses mid to lategame, only early game you didnt see him as much - at least on public since you need teamwork and some kind of strategy.
In competitive play you wanted to help make a quick cyst chain to a hive room to get the RT and build hydras to help fight off incoming marines (in addition to skulks that kept an eye on you, your hydras harvesters and a tiny bit later the 2hive drop)
As gorge you where a forward healer, it was useful to have you and keep you alive. Mid to lategame you were very effective taking out buildings tho needed aliens to protect you. (since you are slow, tho you supported them with heal and they supported you by protecting you)
Currently an attacking gorge has nothing todo other than heal or trying to build something similar to a wall of lame.
I have NO idea why we needed to take away bilebomb, and i have no idea why we went down the sentry spam route - its ###### gameplay.
We are on a wrong track, sometimes you should consider reverting changes instead of trying to force fix it. (tho we can keep clogs but at tier 1, and should start thinking about a additional support ability that works in combat and is not a structure)
<!--quoteo(post=1933630:date=May 5 2012, 02:22 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ May 5 2012, 02:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually i didnt like the idea at all that gorges have hydras in the first place<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm starting to think the same thing. Hydras are a mechanic left over from the days before the Alien Commander stole the Gorge's spotlight. It's out of place on a lifeform that no longer has things of meaning to build.
I wouldn't mind seeing hydras go to the comm, and mines. Defensive structures really should be a T.res investment, it's important game design is consistent in that manner. I'm sure they can come up with a different structure to give to the gorge, and make him more of a combat support orientated class to begin with. (Clogs at tier 1 sounds good too) Though all of this implies a pretty significant redesign of the gorge, not sure it's something UWE is up to. (Though it definitely would be a lot better than the current mess that is gorges + free hydras)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait what happened I thought we found a way to make it work for everyone?? How does the fix we agreed on sound complicated at all? Its intuitive and is a great compromise with zero flaws??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't think it is the miracle solution you are making it out to be. Though so far it's the only possible solution that could somewhat fix the problem, without p.res. It'd be interesting to have a more in-depth discussion on the matter sometime. I added you on steam :)
<!--quoteo(post=1933556:date=May 5 2012, 01:33 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ May 5 2012, 01:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason given for moving them off pres in the first place was a design principle about the scope of pres use and benefits (individual vs team). Since Hydras are seen as something that should theoretically cost tres according to that principle, but another design principle states that non-Commander players shouldn't spend tres directly, how about this as a compromise:
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
It takes nothing away from the gorge as the structure is free anyway, and the gorge loses no protection as the Hydra is still exactly where it was, even if he doesn't realise what the comm has done.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1933556:date=May 4 2012, 06:33 PM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ May 4 2012, 06:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason given for moving them off pres in the first place was a design principle about the scope of pres use and benefits (individual vs team). Since Hydras are seen as something that should theoretically cost tres according to that principle, but another design principle states that non-Commander players shouldn't spend tres directly, how about this as a compromise:
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1933556:date=May 5 2012, 08:33 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ May 5 2012, 08:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does this mean the Alien Commander can "buy out" the individual Hydras that Gorges have built?
<!--quoteo(post=1933672:date=May 5 2012, 10:50 PM:name=Orz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orz @ May 5 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does this mean the Alien Commander can "buy out" the individual Hydras that Gorges have built?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In effect, yes.
I like that idea, though it should also upgrade the hydra in terms of strength, make it considerably better at area denial and have the model 'grow larger' to represent that. If the hydra remains as crappy as it is currently, I really don't see that as a viable t.res investment.
Also regardless of what happens to the hydra, the gorge really needs to become better as his combat role.
I think buying hydras is a really fiddly mechanic, I might like it if you could maybe just click a button to buy all structures in an area, but buying individual hydras seems like a lot of fiddly clicking.
I'd still prefer though if hydras just cost a bit of money to begin with, there's nothing wrong with the idea of that except that they were really expensive before, if you make their cost match their effectiveness, so that a lerk's price in hydras would be as good as a lerk, and so on, they'd be fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1933508:date=May 4 2012, 09:59 PM:name=moultano)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (moultano @ May 4 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMHO, if we want the gorge to be on the front lines building where needed instead of laming things up permanently, minicysts need to be able to live independently of the hive or eliminated. Let Gorge structures produce their own infestation and be put anywhere.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, this, this and, oh God, this.
Logging on after a short break, Gorging and dropping a cyst really made my shoulders sag. No more creep from a cyst that's not connected to creep - no more hydra outposts. SUCH a huge nerf to fun. :(
<!--quoteo(post=1933694:date=May 6 2012, 01:53 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 6 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think buying hydras is a really fiddly mechanic, I might like it if you could maybe just click a button to buy all structures in an area, but buying individual hydras seems like a lot of fiddly clicking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I doubt it'd be a problem, honestly - but if it is, there's always ctrl+click.
<!--quoteo(post=1933694:date=May 5 2012, 05:53 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ May 5 2012, 05:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933694"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think buying hydras is a really fiddly mechanic, I might like it if you could maybe just click a button to buy all structures in an area, but buying individual hydras seems like a lot of fiddly clicking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Compared to organising a whip rush, it would be a breeze.
<!--quoteo(post=1933723:date=May 5 2012, 06:36 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ May 5 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the buying-out/upgrading of Hydras has potential as an idea. If nothing else it seems good enough to test.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there are probably quite a few solutions like this, but all seem kind of awkward bandaid solutions to me and add new issues to different layers. Right now many of the suggestions involve pretty complex and restrictive alien commander/gorge relations for example and both end up sharing even more of that limited power and role each has.
Not that I have any better ideas right here right now.
Logging on after a short break, Gorging and dropping a cyst really made my shoulders sag. No more creep from a cyst that's not connected to creep - no more hydra outposts. SUCH a huge nerf to fun. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on the other hand, I played a game where somebody had hydras in my base as my armory was finishing, and that's absolutely ridiculous
<!--quoteo(post=1933731:date=May 5 2012, 03:35 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ May 5 2012, 03:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->on the other hand, I played a game where somebody had hydras in my base as my armory was finishing, and that's absolutely ridiculous<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I thought the Marines letting an Onos waltz into their base was bad.
I love it when ppl argue about simplicity in other threads, and how little things like max. slots on weapons or lifeforms whatever - will make it soo overly complicated... just to then hype this hydra upgrade idea, that really makes stuff complex and for only a single ability.
Comments
If they would just buff the 'combat' aspect of the gorge, you would already see him played more as a 'transitional class'. i.e supporting his teammates/comm while actually being able to support an offense or defense, without getting hydras and while saving for lerk/fade/onos. I'm absolutely sure that'd make him a lot more fun to play in general as well, and add a lot more depth to the class. Make those hydras an option for gorge players who truly want to assist their team in locking down an area (in the same way a marine can opt to get mines), but not essential to gorge gameplay.
If they would just buff the 'combat' aspect of the gorge, you would already see him played more as a 'transitional class'. i.e supporting his teammates/comm while actually being able to support an offense or defense, without getting hydras and while saving for lerk/fade/onos. I'm absolutely sure that'd make him a lot more fun to play in general as well, and add a lot more depth to the class. Make those hydras an option for gorge players who truly want to assist their team in locking down an area (in the same way a marine can opt to get mines), but not essential to gorge gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, Gorge has a decent amount of health. But, his movement is entirely predictable so it's easy to trail him while spraying and take him out with a single LMG clip, you normally have time to lay out at least 3 clips even if you're terrible at aiming or he's got carapace because he's gonna struggle to hit you with spit and healspray does a small amount of damage.
If Gorge had more armor (damage reduction per bullet) so that LMG was less effective vs. the Gorge and spits projectile was larger so that it was easier to aim they would be better suited to combating single marines or running away.
wait what happened I thought we found a way to make it work for everyone?? How does the fix we agreed on sound complicated at all? Its intuitive and is a great compromise with zero flaws??
Also I have provided plenty of arguments of why pres is a bad thing and the issues it brings in the other free gorge thread.
Considering we now have a flawless way of implementing it, why do we need the issue laden pres system back?
You should be sending charlie the proposed fix, not the argument for reverting to a broken system.
Would you please stop twisting my argument by misinterpreting what i'm writing? I never said anything about "defensive structures not being able to defend", i'm arguing for the case that any static defense need to be properly balanced all around so they don't end up too strong or too weak for their cost.
Even your Sentry example shows how the whole p.res hydra logic still flies out of the window.
With smart placement you can use 2 sentries to cover each other and the powernode, making them practicaly IMPOSSIBLE to kill for the base kharaa unit the skulk even if no marine is present or the commander doesn't pay any attention.
Now try to apply that logic to the hydra, how many hydras do you need to make them impossible to kill for the base marine units the LMG marine? And remember: No gorge or alien players allowed to intervene.
Maybe this little scenario will finnaly help you understand where i'm coming from here and what kind of issues you gonna run into if you want to make an "<b>strong</b> p.res hydra" among the lines of an sentry (after all you just put the 2 of them into the same group to make an point). But i'm kinda shocked i have to make this simple difference between the hydra and the sentry obvious to you. After all you are the one arguing for "balance" here....
I also never said i "want to keep the hydra in the current state", i've delivered alternative ideas as to how to implement an p.res sink to the gorge without making it simply the hydras. But you keep ignoring that point because you assume i'm arguing "for" or "against" any specific change here because it "offended me personaly".
No offense but tbh i'm getting tired of "discussing" with you, it seems like you only read what you want to read. It doesn't help to throw an small ad hominem in there by claiming i'm arguing only for "my personal taste" here like i'm some kind of idiot. I spent serious time typing out these post and try to stick to logical arguments that base on each other. So at this point i'm just gonna call it quits. By now we are just "arguing in circles" and that's an waste of time for both of us.
I still heavily disagree that they need to cost p.res no matter what, because there are plenty of other options to handle the "gorge issue" and there are tons of more options to handle overall team "balance". Let's also not forget that balance will always stay an mostly subjective term/state, so imho it's an somewhat hollow argument for/against a specific change.
But as long as you keep sticking to your "balance is ruined, they need to cost p.res no matter what" mantra this won't even remotley work. You can't base your balance argument soley on res cost and it's impact on the overall metagame like that. It ain't that easy as the above sentry vs hydra example should have shown you, balance is not just an simple issue of "adding up numbers", adding up numbers is only a tool to get a raw impression of overall meta balance in extreme situations.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.
Could you do a very short bullet point of this miracle solution, I think I missed it. There's so many posts on the subject, thx!
Yes! Ninja-ing needs to be brought back.
Well rines already have that with their power packs, and it works well IMO.
Well rines already have that with their power packs, and it works well IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thinking about it more, this would make for a wonderful reason for both the gorge and the gardener (commander) to exist! Gorges can ninja, the gardener can't.
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea has been bought up countless amount of times but it's constantly ignored for no good reason and stupid solutions like we see in 207 are implemented...
It's gotten to a point I just don't care about NS2 anymore each patch seems to be more descrtutive to what made NS1 great to begin with...
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah i really really like this!
But i think just making gorge buildings spread infestation and seperating the minicysts from the infestation network would feel kinda confusing in terms of game logic.
Some cysts stay alive on their own while others don't? Infestation growing out of buildings while they usually grow out of infestation?
The other issue would be that it would too easily render the whole "cyst chain" mechanic useless, as soon as there are few mini cysts spread around the map it would be pointless for marines to try to cut off any part of the infestation network.
How about the gorge get's to build a kharaa version of the marine powerpack? Something like an "infestation hub" it could cost p.res and would basicly act like a small hive to the infestation/cyst network. It could be used to "ninja"/make quick forward bases or simply to make cyst networks way more resilant against chain breaks. To give it some more overall utility the khamm could spent t.res on such a structure to upgrade it in some way which would lead to some gorge/khamm interaction.
I'm kinda scratching my head on that. Ironhorse is referring to a post he made where he suggested Hydras mature and scale.
The problem is we are missing also tres dumps on commanders, so currently at some point in ns2 you would just start to spam units. (like we already see sentrys, whips etc.)
=> we got a big problem in the res system of ns2, i have said it thousands of times and other ppl too.
Whatever,
Hydras, Clogs might be something nice to have, you ahould have to choose to either build this stuff OR save up for a higher lifeform only using the weapons you have. (=> requires pres costs, recycleable hydras(just take and replace somewhere else, not getting back of resources) with unlimited lifetime as long as they have infestation)
Bilebomb was very good on the gorge, you had lots of uses mid to lategame, only early game you didnt see him as much - at least on public since you need teamwork and some kind of strategy.
In competitive play you wanted to help make a quick cyst chain to a hive room to get the RT and build hydras to help fight off incoming marines (in addition to skulks that kept an eye on you, your hydras harvesters and a tiny bit later the 2hive drop)
As gorge you where a forward healer, it was useful to have you and keep you alive. Mid to lategame you were very effective taking out buildings tho needed aliens to protect you. (since you are slow, tho you supported them with heal and they supported you by protecting you)
Currently an attacking gorge has nothing todo other than heal or trying to build something similar to a wall of lame.
I have NO idea why we needed to take away bilebomb, and i have no idea why we went down the sentry spam route - its ###### gameplay.
We are on a wrong track, sometimes you should consider reverting changes instead of trying to force fix it. (tho we can keep clogs but at tier 1, and should start thinking about a additional support ability that works in combat and is not a structure)
I'm starting to think the same thing. Hydras are a mechanic left over from the days before the Alien Commander stole the Gorge's spotlight. It's out of place on a lifeform that no longer has things of meaning to build.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->wait what happened I thought we found a way to make it work for everyone?? How does the fix we agreed on sound complicated at all? Its intuitive and is a great compromise with zero flaws??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't think it is the miracle solution you are making it out to be. Though so far it's the only possible solution that could somewhat fix the problem, without p.res. It'd be interesting to have a more in-depth discussion on the matter sometime. I added you on steam :)
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
It takes nothing away from the gorge as the structure is free anyway, and the gorge loses no protection as the Hydra is still exactly where it was, even if he doesn't realise what the comm has done.
Hydra placement mechanics remain as now; however, the Commander can select Hydras and, for a small tres cost, permanently detach them from their owners, except for kill credit. Doing so incurs a visual change to the affected Hydra, so players can understand what happened by looking at it.
Also, buff their tracking abilities to somewhere between current and 206 levels when they mature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i like this idea
Does this mean the Alien Commander can "buy out" the individual Hydras that Gorges have built?
In effect, yes.
Also regardless of what happens to the hydra, the gorge really needs to become better as his combat role.
I'd still prefer though if hydras just cost a bit of money to begin with, there's nothing wrong with the idea of that except that they were really expensive before, if you make their cost match their effectiveness, so that a lerk's price in hydras would be as good as a lerk, and so on, they'd be fine.
Right now you can only protect established territory and then move forward to heal your team. This makes playing gorge boring since your structures don't receive much interaction from you or anyone else. They are always behind the frontlines, and if you are doing anything useful they are probably far away from you as well, so you have to schlep back home to remove them if you want to rebuild elsewhere.
If I could ninja place things wherever, I'd feel useful in combat, and I'd feel useful to the commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, this, this and, oh God, this.
Logging on after a short break, Gorging and dropping a cyst really made my shoulders sag. No more creep from a cyst that's not connected to creep - no more hydra outposts. SUCH a huge nerf to fun. :(
Well, I doubt it'd be a problem, honestly - but if it is, there's always ctrl+click.
Compared to organising a whip rush, it would be a breeze.
I think there are probably quite a few solutions like this, but all seem kind of awkward bandaid solutions to me and add new issues to different layers. Right now many of the suggestions involve pretty complex and restrictive alien commander/gorge relations for example and both end up sharing even more of that limited power and role each has.
Not that I have any better ideas right here right now.
Logging on after a short break, Gorging and dropping a cyst really made my shoulders sag. No more creep from a cyst that's not connected to creep - no more hydra outposts. SUCH a huge nerf to fun. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
on the other hand, I played a game where somebody had hydras in my base as my armory was finishing, and that's absolutely ridiculous
And I thought the Marines letting an Onos waltz into their base was bad.