A bad solution to a bad problem. Move hydras back to p.res (the ONLY non-lifeform sink in the game) and actually make gorges half-useful in combat without being glorified turret healers. It's crazy that 90% of a gorge's effectiveness is slammed down in the first seconds of its life and the other 10% is spent pressing right-click or hiding away.
If we want gorges to work, they have to be half-capable in combat situations. They don't need to be dps monsters or german tanks; they just need to add enough utility to a combat situation and have enough survivability to warrant their presence more often (and no, dropping hydras and running away does not count). Failing that, they need to be able to actually DO stuff behind the scenes (and no, dropping three hydras and 10 cysts does not count because then what?).
P.res-based structures for gorges was great because it meant that you could gorge at any stage of the game and have an appropriate effect. Gorge early: small effect. Gorge late: large effect. Gorge late after dying as fade: small effect. Gorge early but stay alive: growing effect.
Being faced by free spam is really annoying. It's bad enough that I had to spend endless clips killing one cyst-tanks and hydra-wall but to make them free is just adding insult to injury. As if it wasn't boring enough shooting inanimate structures, I now have to be content with the fact that I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever. I'm not even going to go in to how this affects gameplay but it does.
tldr; buff belly slide, make hydras/clogs/cysts cost p.res, sort out its combat-utility, stop ironhorse from posting
<!--quoteo(post=1933715:date=May 5 2012, 06:09 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 5 2012, 06:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933715"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Compared to organising a whip rush, it would be a breeze.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And when was the last time anyone did that?
One horribly clunky mechanic does not justify further horribly clunky mechanics.
I LOVED playing as Gorge before. Usually the only class I played throughout a match (If it was needed). The race against the marines, trying to lockdown as far into the map as possible was great. An organized marine team would prevent this (So sure... It properly isn't too useful in clan matches. But I'm a pub player only). Making the area into a secure healing station for your fellow aliens. Even an unorganized marine team could remove 10+ hydras very quickly when they got ARCs and/or GLs. So I didn't see it as OP at all (Don't know why they changed it as I don't really follow the patch updates). And aliens still win most of the games from what I've seen.
You can't really secure anything anymore. 3 hydras. 2-3 marines can take care of that without upgrades.
In terms of adding combat utility to the gorge: I actually LIKED when the gorge spit slowed people down a lot, as it meant that my skulk buddies had a much easier time chasing down a marine and chewing his ass than compared to when he's pogoing all over the room. A return of the acid spit slowdown might be nice (or ANYTHING to make acid spit worthwhile asides from "it's your only real attack").
<!--quoteo(post=1934174:date=May 7 2012, 02:55 PM:name=VengZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VengZ @ May 7 2012, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I didn't see it as OP at all (Don't know why they changed it as I don't really follow the patch updates).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was kinda the problem. Hydras were severely UP before 206. You could have an area with 7-8 Hydras (cost of an Onos) and the Marines could just walk through it, ignore the Hydras, and you just blew a free Onos. Conversely they could just walk in and kill them too, in which case there's an Onos down the drain as well.
Now it's back to the same problem in another way. Marines can still more or less ignore Hydras and bypass the area, especially when there's only 3 [nerfed] Hydras.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1933532:date=May 4 2012, 02:12 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ May 4 2012, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you do a very short bullet point of this miracle solution, I think I missed it. There's so many posts on the subject, thx!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure. Was<strike> Asraniel's</strike> idea though. (turns out it was Wheee's first)
<ul><li>I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge <b>worth </b>it.</li><li>Also allow hydras to scale one or two extra per hive and wala, you will be kept busy and have a great impact, you will be worth the res, initial res wont be hurt so theres an early game, and you arent forced into permagorge.</li></ul>
@Tweadle: i expected a better post from you, as you are typically well spoken with great arguments. :-/ I'll skip the fact that no arguments were provided on how you plan on fixing the issues with Pres hydras (Starting Pres too high and forcing permagorging) and move right onto the only points you made: <ul><li>"Doing stuff" behind the scenes can exist with or without pres hydras, and in fact was an issue before clogs or free hydras.</li><li>You can still scale free hydras to have a larger effect later in game - either by strengthening them or allowing more of them - still not an argument of why free hydras should be removed.</li><li><i>"I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever."</i> Does not hold true if there is a cooldown before another hydra can be placed - so this is still not an argument why it should be removed.</li></ul>
By the way you can "mimic" or "match" the timings of those last two things based upon what you were able to achieve before if your cooldowns are scaled to something - as suggested pages before. In other words - whatever benefits you see from having a Pres required hydra can be MATCHED in all areas with a free hydra using already existing mechanics that are easy to implement - all without the issues that came with the system before.
You may call these "fixes" or whatever else lessens their impact for an argument but the fact remains that almost nothing implemented in this game so far has been done so in one pass without a "fix" and it is needed to make the new system work - <b>better than the one before it.</b>
I cannot argue something subjective as "fun".. but if you are specific i bet we can match it/fix it. (timings etc)
<!--quoteo(post=1933930:date=May 6 2012, 08:58 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 6 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stop ironhorse from posting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->:( The vast majority of human beings are not interested in reason or satisfied with what it teaches. ~Aldous Huxley
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->'I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thing is, if the structures last for 5 minutes, wouldn't that possibly result in most players investing 10 p.res to drop 3 free hydras again? I mean, 5 minutes is a considerable length of time, I could drop hydras at the start of the game, then go skulk and only re-gorge 5 minutes later. I will have had a significant impact with just that 10 p.res, especially if they've by then turned into mature hydras. Basically, you'd be paying 10 p.res for 5 min hydras. (And you could re-gorge at 4:59, then re-skulk) How is that going to be any different from a player just investing p.res in hydras directly? Instead of paying a price up front, you'd now just pay a 10 p.res fee very 5 minutes if you want to keep them up while playing a different class. (And only lose them when you're stuck as lerk/fade/onos for longer)
Also, I don't think it would entirely address the issue that is the gorge being too cheap at 10 p.res. (Provided his hydras actually do something) The commander 'buying out' hydras to keep them around, and make then stronger, would probably be a better solution in that regard, though it would need to be accompanied with an overhaul of the gorge, so that even with the more lacklustre hydras (the ones that don't get 'bought out' with t.res) the gorge can be enjoyable. This means the general focus of gorge-play should shift away from hydras, the hydras should be an 'utility' at best.
OR, they could consider only having augmentation giving you hydras, or having augmentation buff the hydra significantly. (This way they at least need a t.res investment to become effective tools of area denial, allowing them to be balanced on the T.res cost of the augmentation tech) It would offer some real choices for the khamm, if they decide to go with splitting up the augmentation into individual tech. Do you go for hydra augmentation tech for better map control, or straight for bilebomb? It would all depend on how the game is going, are they going for sentries and do you have lerks, or is the team saving up for fades and onos? Etc etc
You can have one player on the team remain gorge to heal the hydras of everyone else on the team that went gorge and then re-evolved. So the issue of 'free hydras drops' isn't really solved if they only expire after 5 minutes. (5 Minutes would just allow re-gorging every 4:30 min to reset the timer if I wanted to keep my hydras alive, which I probably would want if the hydras were a proper defensive structure again)
Here's a small synopsis of how I see the issue.
- Hydras can't be strong AND free, on a 10 p.res gorge, that would obviously be imbalanced. (But raising the gorge base p.res cost to account for it is not an option) - Hydras are essential to gorge play currently, i.e if the hydras don't perform well, most players won't bother gorging, there's very little else to the gorge. Therefore we want hydras to actually be good at what they do, but obviously we don't want players to be able to spam them (there needs to be some way of balancing out the time and resources it takes for marines to deal with them) - Even if hydras weren't a central part of the gorge, it could be argued that ALIENS need some sort of proper defensive structure, similar to sentries, in able for them to hold on to map control. (This is the second argument for why we need strong, but non-spammable, hydras) - There needs to be a reason for people to stay gorged, players should have the option to play the gorge as either a 'transitional' or a 'full' class. I need to be able to gorge real quick to help my team or heal the hive (this means a low cost is important), but at the same time having a gorge in the team in the long run should never be a handicap (I.e there needs to be a proper trade-off with losing the extra skulk for a gorge, 3rd reason why strong hydras are needed, since they provide for a strong enough 'defensive' trade-off) Not to mention that playing a gorge for a longer amount of time should remain fun, and needs some sort of 'p.res sink'. (Though it could be argued that ALL classes need a sustained p.res sink in this regard, I agree with that)
Personally I'm inclined to think p.res cost on hydras does the best job of meeting the demands (it allows for a strong hyda that can't be spammed and has a 'trade-off', there is a purpose in killing it, and the resources marine spend on dealing with them are not just wasted because they're free. I.e it is balanced.) However, I could see a workable solution in the shape of an augmentation 'tech' that boosts hydras, as well as having 'maturation' affect them more. Provided they are combined with a better 'battle gorge' overall, i.e make gorge play revolve less around hydras. (This will also help make the gorge a more enjoyable class overall, instead of just 'transitional')
Love the ideas regarding investing Tres into the "hydra buff" tech. But that should only be implemented if there indeed, remains a hard cap of 3 etc. Otherwise the scaling would make it too much. (3 hard to kill hydras is far different from 6)
<i>" Instead of paying a price up front, you'd now just pay a 10 p.res fee very 5 minutes if you want to keep them up while playing a different class. "</i> noottt exxactttllyy.. this is a good point, but you are not considering that the hydras(and all gorge built things) begin to die / decay immediately upon your death/evolution. so that by the X min mark they are 0% hp. This means you would have to get to that location that hopefully has infestation to evolve, or do it before and travel slowly as a gorge, only to get there and heal them in time. If this time limit was lessened to say 3 minutes, this whole "plant - evolve - fight - die - evolve - save plants" might be waaayy more difficult to accomplish - but you have to remember no matter what you are losing a) forward healer b) forward speed builder c)path blocker for that time that you evolved into something else, should you still make it back in time.
I think what free hydras effectively accomplished was highlight that there isn't enough for the gorge to do. Mini cysts are overlapping and unnecessary, really, especially when he needs his hydras to be on the frontlines that are void of infestation Clogs are fun but yet to be implemented in a very useful way - perhaps its a size / design issue not sure
Which only leaves hydras and healing. Those 3 hydras can be put down instantly..... <i>now what?</i> <b>You're a glorified mobile crag.</b> I think if this issue was addressed then having your abilities/weapons "free" like every other alien class would not matter as much.
<!--quoteo(post=1934199:date=May 7 2012, 09:32 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 7 2012, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934199"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@Tweadle: i expected a better post from you, as you are typically well spoken with great arguments. :-/ I'll skip the fact that no arguments were provided on how you plan on fixing the issues with Pres hydras (Starting Pres too high and forcing permagorging) and move right onto the only points you made: <ul><li>"Doing stuff" behind the scenes can exist with or without pres hydras, and in fact was an issue before clogs or free hydras.</li><li>You can still scale free hydras to have a larger effect later in game - either by strengthening them or allowing more of them - still not an argument of why free hydras should be removed.</li><li><i>"I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever."</i> Does not hold true if there is a cooldown before another hydra can be placed - so this is still not an argument why it should be removed.</li></ul>
By the way you can "mimic" or "match" the timings of those last two things based upon what you were able to achieve before if your cooldowns are scaled to something - as suggested pages before. In other words - whatever benefits you see from having a Pres required hydra can be MATCHED in all areas with a free hydra using already existing mechanics that are easy to implement - all without the issues that came with the system before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't doubt that gorges had problems but it's not a non-argument to pose that the new introductions are counter-productive. If I believe that gorges are, on balance, made worse by free hydras then why should I not argue for p.res hydras to be returned. If you must know my reasoning, it's exactly the same as every other p.res defence around; that permanent and free structures should not exist outside the remit of the resource-system. Unless you made hydras very temporary, I certainly don't see them fitting in your 'they're abilities!' schema. I don't really want to go into detail as to why I think this perception of hydras/cysts/clogs as abilities is fallacious except to say that abilities should be about a reasonable degree of player-control and spamming stuff doesn't fall under this umbrella.
I'm very clear about what I dislike about the gorge in my post and those grievances inform my feelings about where gorges need to be improved; behind-the-scenes-activity, combat-utility and movement-mechanics. Free hydras appears like an ill-informed attempt to achieve the first two and the latter is something I have very little hope for besides a numerical value change in belly-slide or something.
As for scaling free hydras, I can't imagine any system that peforms as well as resource-based structures. Even if I could, the p.res system is way more intuitive and streamlined than other copycat mechanic that emulates its effects. It's also a much-needed resource sink for aliens that avoids the lol-team-fade strategy. If you end up mimicking it, then you end up with a gorge just as potent but with 50 res in the bank or something silly (sometimes its easy predict some of the drawbacks of ideas like this before implementing them).
Lastly, the horrible sensation of killing free building would only be MARGINALLY mitigated by having cool-downs unless those cool-downs were huge (in which case, back to non-fun/effective gorge). On top of this, it would be possibly the most random implementation of a cool-down ever when considering the way the rest of the game is designed (around resources...). Don't you dare point to micro cool-downs for attacks and other abilities as a legitimate defence, by the way.
At the end of the day, i'm sure there's a way of implementing free hydras that would work (you can get almost anything to work if you try hard enough). However, we have a really good core mechanic (or <i>will</i> have; once this t.res/p.res/energy/armoury malarkey is ironed out) in the game that we should be working with, not against. It seems utterly pointless and a huge waste of time and effort to put our minds to finding fixes and tweaks for ideas as fundamentally flawed and counter-productive as this. Iteration is good but iteration that introduces totally new mechanics like this is unwise at the current development stage (don't refute this, i'll just say it's just my opinion).
Well, the discussion on clogs and hydras disappearing is still a valid one I reckon. It's time we start thinking INSIDE the box then. How do we improve the current system? I think there's already some good suggestions floating around, what's important is that we all agree the current implementation still needs a bit of work for sure. (There needs to be a mechanism to stop gorge players from just recycling killed hydras right away, which will allow the base hydra to be a better defensive structure again, with or without maturation or 'tech' making it notably better as well)
If we returned to numbers scaling per hive, that might not be a bad solution - it was only annoying before because they didn't die after the gorge went away. Also, making mini-cysts create infestation even away from the chain would also help. This would make the gorge into a outpost creator, setting up in or near enemy territory where his outpost dies with him.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1934538:date=May 8 2012, 12:15 PM:name=TheIcarusKid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheIcarusKid @ May 8 2012, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This would make the gorge into a outpost creator, setting up in or near enemy territory where his outpost dies with him.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge is changing constantly right now.. and some of those changes might be in line with what you are thinking here. Stay tuned :)
I posted an idea for the disappearing structures on the "Feedback for Build 207" topic when it first came out, but just realized it probably never got seen. I haven't read every post so I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but I'd like a little feedback all the same so I'll go ahead and re-post the suggestion here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Suggestion: Structures should only die off if you select a higher lifeform than skulk and gorge.
I see no possible alien victory for a game with decent teams where most players do not evolve past gorge or skulk anyway, so they would die off on their own naturally as the match progressed. Also, you could make for some nice early game static deterrent, but with the obvious sacrifice of offense for defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the same thread
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be great if Hydras evolved as a gorge upgrade for the comm to select after augmentation. Something to even rival the original OC. Maybe called a "Great Hydra" or "Grand Hydra" that is a bit bigger in size and double the heads of the original hydra. I'm not sure what is planned for the 3rd gorge ability, though. But by the time the third abilities are in play, it may be too long of a wait before the gorge becomes useful again. A comm upgraded hydra might be just the trick to keep things interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do also like the maturing idea, but I think that is easier said than done. Most hydras don't last long after reaching full maturity anyway unless they are in the hive room.
<!--quoteo(post=1934522:date=May 8 2012, 02:16 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 8 2012, 02:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934522"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To clarify: Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres. Commander structures are different, and obviously should cost Tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres <u><b>to use.</b></u> However player abilities/structures do cost pres to have. Marines already pay pres to buy weapons (essentially the same as an ability). Hell marines actually do have an ability that cost pres to use...mines. Its basically 5 pres per use of laying a mine.
I still haven't heard a real solid argument as to why higher alien abilities shouldn't cost pres to have (not use). I think one of the big imbalances is that aliens get too much for free compared to marines. For 10 pres, gorge got too much...at least in 206. 207 they are gimpish now. However, if the hydras cost the gorge player an additional 10-20 pres to have (on top of the 10), then you can better justify stronger hydra tweeks. Regardless, gorge really needs to be less useless in combat.
<!--quoteo(post=1934810:date=May 9 2012, 01:29 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ May 9 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934810"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres <u><b>to use.</b></u> However player abilities/structures do cost pres to have. Marines already pay pres to buy weapons (essentially the same as an ability). Hell marines actually do have an ability that cost pres to use...mines. Its basically 5 pres per use of laying a mine.
I still haven't heard a real solid argument as to why higher alien abilities shouldn't cost pres to have (not use). I think one of the big imbalances is that aliens get too much for free compared to marines. For 10 pres, gorge got too much...at least in 206. 207 they are gimpish now. However, if the hydras cost the gorge player an additional 10-20 pres to have (on top of the 10), then you can better justify stronger hydra tweeks. Regardless, gorge really needs to be less useless in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I absolutely hate this change, by the way. Gorge should act as the Khamm's right hand man, and if that means I gotta spend some p res for the good of my team, then I'll do it.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
This change is still not acceptable. Make Gorge Structures cost res again if you have to, but don't make them dissolve over time.
Worked in NS1, will work in NS2 too.
Hydras aren't the gorges "weapon" either. I don't know who came up with that. Its a structure, just like the Alien Commander or Marine Commander drops.
<!--quoteo(post=1934845:date=May 9 2012, 08:47 PM:name=Security)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Security @ May 9 2012, 08:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This change is still not acceptable. Make Gorge Structures cost res again if you have to, but don't make them dissolve over time.
Worked in NS1, will work in NS2 too.
Hydras aren't the gorges "weapon" either. I don't know who came up with that. Its a structure, just like the Alien Commander or Marine Commander drops.
Stop changing everything for the worst, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1934857:date=May 9 2012, 01:57 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ May 9 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just remove alien comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's been stated time and time again that alien comm is here to stay. Let's try to find a solution within the methods that are going to happen.
Alien comm barely does anything as is, because UWE seems to be removing all tactics from the game, and they can do just fine with 1 hive and an augmentation they get for free.
<!--quoteo(post=1934870:date=May 9 2012, 02:25 PM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ May 9 2012, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934870"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alien comm barely does anything as is, because UWE seems to be removing all tactics from the game, and they can do just fine with 1 hive and an augmentation they get for free.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it's currently in flux, but AFAIK Charlie's top priority is the alien tech tree at the moment. We all know it's boring the way it is, but augmentation is brand new so I think (hope) the final form will be much more interesting to play.
I agree that the alien comm's linear tech path right now is one of the biggest problems with 207.
Thats still not a solid argument against making abilities cost res to have. Its rhetorical design speak that doesn't help much.
Introduction of the ex-suit will make those comparisons very fuzzy.
Guns, abilities, evo upgrades, lifeforms ... they can all be res sinks. Right now aliens are floating on res while they get more and more free stuff as the match goes on, and they outpace marines. Sure marines get free armor and damage upgrades, but it doesn't compare to the game changing lifeforms and abilities...plus free evolution upgrades. Not all abilities should cost res, but some should.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1934849:date=May 9 2012, 08:56 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ May 9 2012, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge is not a commander.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but having gorge buildings dissolve if the parent was not a gorge for a bit just takes away even more freedom of choice, tactics and diversity, compared to NS1.
Go Lerk/Fade/Onos OR help securing areas with buildings.
Also, the gorge is supposed to support and help the commander. I mean, otherwise they could just take away all buildings and the ability to speed up building by healing from the gorge completely. Or remove the whole class.
Gorge Buildings should cost pres again but stay, even if the player is not a gorge anymore. Then to balance it, just adjust the price of the hydras. Even a limit is fine, as long as they dont dissolve.
<!--quoteo(post=1934842:date=May 10 2012, 04:12 AM:name=Raneman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raneman @ May 10 2012, 04:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1934842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I absolutely hate this change, by the way. Gorge should act as the Khamm's right hand man, and if that means I gotta spend some p res for the good of my team, then I'll do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*IDEA* Building near veils perma-claok structures that aren't active. Like firing hydras and swinging whips and stuff.
Comments
If we want gorges to work, they have to be half-capable in combat situations. They don't need to be dps monsters or german tanks; they just need to add enough utility to a combat situation and have enough survivability to warrant their presence more often (and no, dropping hydras and running away does not count). Failing that, they need to be able to actually DO stuff behind the scenes (and no, dropping three hydras and 10 cysts does not count because then what?).
P.res-based structures for gorges was great because it meant that you could gorge at any stage of the game and have an appropriate effect. Gorge early: small effect. Gorge late: large effect. Gorge late after dying as fade: small effect. Gorge early but stay alive: growing effect.
Being faced by free spam is really annoying. It's bad enough that I had to spend endless clips killing one cyst-tanks and hydra-wall but to make them free is just adding insult to injury. As if it wasn't boring enough shooting inanimate structures, I now have to be content with the fact that I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever. I'm not even going to go in to how this affects gameplay but it does.
tldr; buff belly slide, make hydras/clogs/cysts cost p.res, sort out its combat-utility, stop ironhorse from posting
And when was the last time anyone did that?
One horribly clunky mechanic does not justify further horribly clunky mechanics.
I LOVED playing as Gorge before. Usually the only class I played throughout a match (If it was needed).
The race against the marines, trying to lockdown as far into the map as possible was great. An organized marine team would prevent this (So sure... It properly isn't too useful in clan matches. But I'm a pub player only).
Making the area into a secure healing station for your fellow aliens.
Even an unorganized marine team could remove 10+ hydras very quickly when they got ARCs and/or GLs. So I didn't see it as OP at all (Don't know why they changed it as I don't really follow the patch updates). And aliens still win most of the games from what I've seen.
You can't really secure anything anymore. 3 hydras. 2-3 marines can take care of that without upgrades.
Boooooooriiiiiiiiing.
That was kinda the problem. Hydras were severely UP before 206. You could have an area with 7-8 Hydras (cost of an Onos) and the Marines could just walk through it, ignore the Hydras, and you just blew a free Onos. Conversely they could just walk in and kill them too, in which case there's an Onos down the drain as well.
Now it's back to the same problem in another way. Marines can still more or less ignore Hydras and bypass the area, especially when there's only 3 [nerfed] Hydras.
Sure. Was<strike> Asraniel's</strike> idea though. (turns out it was Wheee's first)
<ul><li>I think if hydras lasted and matured into a stronger state and lasted for 5 minutes, then you could essentially play gorge for 5 to 10 minutes, evolve and still have your structures have an impact for a longer period all the while fading or doing something else effectively - essentially making that 10pres cost for the gorge <b>worth </b>it.</li><li>Also allow hydras to scale one or two extra per hive and wala, you will be kept busy and have a great impact, you will be worth the res, initial res wont be hurt so theres an early game, and you arent forced into permagorge.</li></ul>
@Tweadle: i expected a better post from you, as you are typically well spoken with great arguments. :-/
I'll skip the fact that no arguments were provided on how you plan on fixing the issues with Pres hydras (Starting Pres too high and forcing permagorging) and move right onto the only points you made:
<ul><li>"Doing stuff" behind the scenes can exist with or without pres hydras, and in fact was an issue before clogs or free hydras.</li><li>You can still scale free hydras to have a larger effect later in game - either by strengthening them or allowing more of them - still not an argument of why free hydras should be removed.</li><li><i>"I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever."</i> Does not hold true if there is a cooldown before another hydra can be placed - so this is still not an argument why it should be removed.</li></ul>
By the way you can "mimic" or "match" the timings of those last two things based upon what you were able to achieve before if your cooldowns are scaled to something - as suggested pages before. In other words - whatever benefits you see from having a Pres required hydra can be MATCHED in all areas with a free hydra using already existing mechanics that are easy to implement - all without the issues that came with the system before.
You may call these "fixes" or whatever else lessens their impact for an argument but the fact remains that almost nothing implemented in this game so far has been done so in one pass without a "fix" and it is needed to make the new system work - <b>better than the one before it.</b>
I cannot argue something subjective as "fun".. but if you are specific i bet we can match it/fix it. (timings etc)
<!--quoteo(post=1933930:date=May 6 2012, 08:58 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ May 6 2012, 08:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1933930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stop ironhorse from posting<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->:(
The vast majority of human beings are not interested in reason or satisfied with what it teaches. ~Aldous Huxley
Thing is, if the structures last for 5 minutes, wouldn't that possibly result in most players investing 10 p.res to drop 3 free hydras again? I mean, 5 minutes is a considerable length of time, I could drop hydras at the start of the game, then go skulk and only re-gorge 5 minutes later. I will have had a significant impact with just that 10 p.res, especially if they've by then turned into mature hydras. Basically, you'd be paying 10 p.res for 5 min hydras. (And you could re-gorge at 4:59, then re-skulk) How is that going to be any different from a player just investing p.res in hydras directly? Instead of paying a price up front, you'd now just pay a 10 p.res fee very 5 minutes if you want to keep them up while playing a different class. (And only lose them when you're stuck as lerk/fade/onos for longer)
Also, I don't think it would entirely address the issue that is the gorge being too cheap at 10 p.res. (Provided his hydras actually do something) The commander 'buying out' hydras to keep them around, and make then stronger, would probably be a better solution in that regard, though it would need to be accompanied with an overhaul of the gorge, so that even with the more lacklustre hydras (the ones that don't get 'bought out' with t.res) the gorge can be enjoyable. This means the general focus of gorge-play should shift away from hydras, the hydras should be an 'utility' at best.
OR, they could consider only having augmentation giving you hydras, or having augmentation buff the hydra significantly. (This way they at least need a t.res investment to become effective tools of area denial, allowing them to be balanced on the T.res cost of the augmentation tech) It would offer some real choices for the khamm, if they decide to go with splitting up the augmentation into individual tech. Do you go for hydra augmentation tech for better map control, or straight for bilebomb? It would all depend on how the game is going, are they going for sentries and do you have lerks, or is the team saving up for fades and onos? Etc etc
Here's a small synopsis of how I see the issue.
- Hydras can't be strong AND free, on a 10 p.res gorge, that would obviously be imbalanced. (But raising the gorge base p.res cost to account for it is not an option)
- Hydras are essential to gorge play currently, i.e if the hydras don't perform well, most players won't bother gorging, there's very little else to the gorge. Therefore we want hydras to actually be good at what they do, but obviously we don't want players to be able to spam them (there needs to be some way of balancing out the time and resources it takes for marines to deal with them)
- Even if hydras weren't a central part of the gorge, it could be argued that ALIENS need some sort of proper defensive structure, similar to sentries, in able for them to hold on to map control. (This is the second argument for why we need strong, but non-spammable, hydras)
- There needs to be a reason for people to stay gorged, players should have the option to play the gorge as either a 'transitional' or a 'full' class. I need to be able to gorge real quick to help my team or heal the hive (this means a low cost is important), but at the same time having a gorge in the team in the long run should never be a handicap (I.e there needs to be a proper trade-off with losing the extra skulk for a gorge, 3rd reason why strong hydras are needed, since they provide for a strong enough 'defensive' trade-off) Not to mention that playing a gorge for a longer amount of time should remain fun, and needs some sort of 'p.res sink'. (Though it could be argued that ALL classes need a sustained p.res sink in this regard, I agree with that)
Personally I'm inclined to think p.res cost on hydras does the best job of meeting the demands (it allows for a strong hyda that can't be spammed and has a 'trade-off', there is a purpose in killing it, and the resources marine spend on dealing with them are not just wasted because they're free. I.e it is balanced.) However, I could see a workable solution in the shape of an augmentation 'tech' that boosts hydras, as well as having 'maturation' affect them more. Provided they are combined with a better 'battle gorge' overall, i.e make gorge play revolve less around hydras. (This will also help make the gorge a more enjoyable class overall, instead of just 'transitional')
Love the ideas regarding investing Tres into the "hydra buff" tech.
But that should only be implemented if there indeed, remains a hard cap of 3 etc. Otherwise the scaling would make it too much. (3 hard to kill hydras is far different from 6)
<i>" Instead of paying a price up front, you'd now just pay a 10 p.res fee very 5 minutes if you want to keep them up while playing a different class. "</i>
noottt exxactttllyy.. this is a good point, but you are not considering that the hydras(and all gorge built things) begin to die / decay immediately upon your death/evolution. so that by the X min mark they are 0% hp. This means you would have to get to that location that hopefully has infestation to evolve, or do it before and travel slowly as a gorge, only to get there and heal them in time. If this time limit was lessened to say 3 minutes, this whole "plant - evolve - fight - die - evolve - save plants" might be waaayy more difficult to accomplish - but you have to remember no matter what you are losing a) forward healer b) forward speed builder c)path blocker for that time that you evolved into something else, should you still make it back in time.
I think what free hydras effectively accomplished was highlight that there isn't enough for the gorge to do.
Mini cysts are overlapping and unnecessary, really, especially when he needs his hydras to be on the frontlines that are void of infestation
Clogs are fun but yet to be implemented in a very useful way - perhaps its a size / design issue not sure
Which only leaves hydras and healing. Those 3 hydras can be put down instantly..... <i>now what?</i> <b>You're a glorified mobile crag.</b>
I think if this issue was addressed then having your abilities/weapons "free" like every other alien class would not matter as much.
I'll skip the fact that no arguments were provided on how you plan on fixing the issues with Pres hydras (Starting Pres too high and forcing permagorging) and move right onto the only points you made:
<ul><li>"Doing stuff" behind the scenes can exist with or without pres hydras, and in fact was an issue before clogs or free hydras.</li><li>You can still scale free hydras to have a larger effect later in game - either by strengthening them or allowing more of them - still not an argument of why free hydras should be removed.</li><li><i>"I have done virtually nothing to hinder aliens whatsoever."</i> Does not hold true if there is a cooldown before another hydra can be placed - so this is still not an argument why it should be removed.</li></ul>
By the way you can "mimic" or "match" the timings of those last two things based upon what you were able to achieve before if your cooldowns are scaled to something - as suggested pages before. In other words - whatever benefits you see from having a Pres required hydra can be MATCHED in all areas with a free hydra using already existing mechanics that are easy to implement - all without the issues that came with the system before.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't doubt that gorges had problems but it's not a non-argument to pose that the new introductions are counter-productive. If I believe that gorges are, on balance, made worse by free hydras then why should I not argue for p.res hydras to be returned. If you must know my reasoning, it's exactly the same as every other p.res defence around; that permanent and free structures should not exist outside the remit of the resource-system. Unless you made hydras very temporary, I certainly don't see them fitting in your 'they're abilities!' schema. I don't really want to go into detail as to why I think this perception of hydras/cysts/clogs as abilities is fallacious except to say that abilities should be about a reasonable degree of player-control and spamming stuff doesn't fall under this umbrella.
I'm very clear about what I dislike about the gorge in my post and those grievances inform my feelings about where gorges need to be improved; behind-the-scenes-activity, combat-utility and movement-mechanics. Free hydras appears like an ill-informed attempt to achieve the first two and the latter is something I have very little hope for besides a numerical value change in belly-slide or something.
As for scaling free hydras, I can't imagine any system that peforms as well as resource-based structures. Even if I could, the p.res system is way more intuitive and streamlined than other copycat mechanic that emulates its effects. It's also a much-needed resource sink for aliens that avoids the lol-team-fade strategy. If you end up mimicking it, then you end up with a gorge just as potent but with 50 res in the bank or something silly (sometimes its easy predict some of the drawbacks of ideas like this before implementing them).
Lastly, the horrible sensation of killing free building would only be MARGINALLY mitigated by having cool-downs unless those cool-downs were huge (in which case, back to non-fun/effective gorge). On top of this, it would be possibly the most random implementation of a cool-down ever when considering the way the rest of the game is designed (around resources...). Don't you dare point to micro cool-downs for attacks and other abilities as a legitimate defence, by the way.
At the end of the day, i'm sure there's a way of implementing free hydras that would work (you can get almost anything to work if you try hard enough). However, we have a really good core mechanic (or <i>will</i> have; once this t.res/p.res/energy/armoury malarkey is ironed out) in the game that we should be working with, not against. It seems utterly pointless and a huge waste of time and effort to put our minds to finding fixes and tweaks for ideas as fundamentally flawed and counter-productive as this. Iteration is good but iteration that introduces totally new mechanics like this is unwise at the current development stage (don't refute this, i'll just say it's just my opinion).
Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres.
Commander structures are different, and obviously should cost Tres.
The gorge is changing constantly right now.. and some of those changes might be in line with what you are thinking here. Stay tuned :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Suggestion: Structures should only die off if you select a higher lifeform than skulk and gorge.
I see no possible alien victory for a game with decent teams where most players do not evolve past gorge or skulk anyway, so they would die off on their own naturally as the match progressed. Also, you could make for some nice early game static deterrent, but with the obvious sacrifice of offense for defense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And on the same thread
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It would be great if Hydras evolved as a gorge upgrade for the comm to select after augmentation. Something to even rival the original OC. Maybe called a "Great Hydra" or "Grand Hydra" that is a bit bigger in size and double the heads of the original hydra. I'm not sure what is planned for the 3rd gorge ability, though. But by the time the third abilities are in play, it may be too long of a wait before the gorge becomes useful again. A comm upgraded hydra might be just the trick to keep things interesting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do also like the maturing idea, but I think that is easier said than done. Most hydras don't last long after reaching full maturity anyway unless they are in the hive room.
Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres.
Commander structures are different, and obviously should cost Tres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Player abilities and their structures will never cost pres <u><b>to use.</b></u>
However player abilities/structures do cost pres to have. Marines already pay pres to buy weapons (essentially the same as an ability).
Hell marines actually do have an ability that cost pres to use...mines. Its basically 5 pres per use of laying a mine.
I still haven't heard a real solid argument as to why higher alien abilities shouldn't cost pres to have (not use). I think one of the big imbalances is that aliens get too much for free compared to marines. For 10 pres, gorge got too much...at least in 206. 207 they are gimpish now. However, if the hydras cost the gorge player an additional 10-20 pres to have (on top of the 10), then you can better justify stronger hydra tweeks.
Regardless, gorge really needs to be less useless in combat.
However player abilities/structures do cost pres to have. Marines already pay pres to buy weapons (essentially the same as an ability).
Hell marines actually do have an ability that cost pres to use...mines. Its basically 5 pres per use of laying a mine.
I still haven't heard a real solid argument as to why higher alien abilities shouldn't cost pres to have (not use). I think one of the big imbalances is that aliens get too much for free compared to marines. For 10 pres, gorge got too much...at least in 206. 207 they are gimpish now. However, if the hydras cost the gorge player an additional 10-20 pres to have (on top of the 10), then you can better justify stronger hydra tweeks.
Regardless, gorge really needs to be less useless in combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guns != Abilities.
Guns = Lifeforms.
Make Gorge Structures cost res again if you have to, but don't make them dissolve over time.
Worked in NS1, will work in NS2 too.
Hydras aren't the gorges "weapon" either. I don't know who came up with that. Its a structure, just like the Alien Commander or Marine Commander drops.
Stop changing everything for the worst, really.
Make Gorge Structures cost res again if you have to, but don't make them dissolve over time.
Worked in NS1, will work in NS2 too.
Hydras aren't the gorges "weapon" either. I don't know who came up with that. Its a structure, just like the Alien Commander or Marine Commander drops.
Stop changing everything for the worst, really.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge is not a commander.
Correct!
However, the alien commander is not a gorge, and, quite frankly, we never needed an alien commander.
Just remove alien comm.
It's been stated time and time again that alien comm is here to stay. Let's try to find a solution within the methods that are going to happen.
Yeah, it's currently in flux, but AFAIK Charlie's top priority is the alien tech tree at the moment. We all know it's boring the way it is, but augmentation is brand new so I think (hope) the final form will be much more interesting to play.
I agree that the alien comm's linear tech path right now is one of the biggest problems with 207.
Guns = Lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats still not a solid argument against making abilities cost res to have. Its rhetorical design speak that doesn't help much.
Introduction of the ex-suit will make those comparisons very fuzzy.
Guns, abilities, evo upgrades, lifeforms ... they can all be res sinks. Right now aliens are floating on res while they get more and more free stuff as the match goes on, and they outpace marines. Sure marines get free armor and damage upgrades, but it doesn't compare to the game changing lifeforms and abilities...plus free evolution upgrades. Not all abilities should cost res, but some should.
Yeah, but having gorge buildings dissolve if the parent was not a gorge for a bit just takes away even more freedom of choice, tactics and diversity, compared to NS1.
Go Lerk/Fade/Onos OR help securing areas with buildings.
Also, the gorge is supposed to support and help the commander.
I mean, otherwise they could just take away all buildings and the ability to speed up building by healing from the gorge completely. Or remove the whole class.
Gorge Buildings should cost pres again but stay, even if the player is not a gorge anymore.
Then to balance it, just adjust the price of the hydras. Even a limit is fine, as long as they dont dissolve.
*IDEA*
Building near veils perma-claok structures that aren't active. Like firing hydras and swinging whips and stuff.