schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
so with this rookie mode - if I want to join the same server as my rookie friend who I just gave my copy to, will I be able to?
It scares me thinking about a server only filled with newbs that don't know how to play the game properly, it will most likely give the wrong impression of the game to those people and they will never play again.
Næb mode is a dangerous idea imo. Sure, it might put people against other people of similar skill, but maybe it'll be tough to learn to play the game "properly" and maybe it will be a "shock" anyway when they decide to go off-næb.
Then again, it's similarly off-putting to join a server where you get dominated (TF2 gangnam style) or even yelled at during your first hours in the game.
That happens in every game though... so it's nothing new in onlineland.
CS:GO had a næb mode too. I didn't buy it but I had the beta. For someone who has it, did it actually work after release? Are næbs actually playing that mode or is it pretty much dead? Does it fullfill its purpose? It might be a good case study for UW as the game was released just a month ago. If it didn't work in CS:GO it won't work in NS2.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It scares me thinking about a server only filled with newbs that don't know how to play the game properly, it will most likely give the wrong impression of the game to those people and they will never play again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i cannot imagine anyone would permanently quit a game he played for less than a few hours (rookie mode will not last very long), if it is a non-casual game like ns2 with lots of different content and mechanics to explore. in any case i think it is less likely to be a reason than veteran fades mopping the floor with them. you can already see several people on the forums complaining about what they think is cheating because the skill gaps can be huge. also, charlie mentioned something about coaching on these servers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if I want to join the same server as my rookie friend who I just gave my copy to, will I be able to?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> your friend can always turn this off and by default, any server will be a mixed server (as far as i understood it). for more details (although they are not final), also watch the previous dev Q&A (not the one today) starting at minute 9.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one is ever going to use a rookie mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> just because you wouldn't doesnt mean nobody would. so please post any kind of evidence outside of your personal oppinion, or at least explain the reasons behind your point of view. because my personal oppinion is quite the opposite as you can tell by several previous posts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS:GO had a næb mode too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> i don't think cs compares well with ns2 as even the basics in ns2 seem much more complex. but i agree that it could be nice to learn from potential issues here.
overall i can relate to people who see potential drawbacks concerning rookie servers. but without any kind of matchmaking, i don't see any better solution regarding the upcoming skill gaps and their massive potential for frustration. remember we're probably having 50%+ of the community being absolute newbies at 1.0 (45000 copies given out + steam preorders)! so chances of having "proper" games as you guys descripe it seem rather low for that point in time.
ok we finally got an official text:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Servers that are set as “rookie friendly†should show up as such in the server browser: All players are marked as “rookies†until they have logged 4 hours of play. During this time, their communication (chat, voice icon) are displayed in green and they are indicated to others as a new player. Other players are told to help rookies via a loading screen hint. Players can disable display of themselves as “rookies†by turning it off in the options After 4 hours, you are automatically set to not being a rookie. Even if you turn it back on, it will turn off every 30 seconds of play. This is a social convention, nothing is enforced. I’m hoping this is enough to let players get games with others that aren’t way above their skill level, allowing them to get some kills and some guidance while they are learning. There could still be poachers, but hopefully there will be less then without rookie mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so as i understand this anyone is still allowed to play on the rookie servers. i'm indeed concerned about poachers but this solution eliminates some possible drawbacks and it should work nicely for pre-1.0 at least.
<!--quoteo(post=1979871:date=Sep 19 2012, 01:50 AM:name=HeatSurge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (HeatSurge @ Sep 19 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1979871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Næb mode is a dangerous idea imo. Sure, it might put people against other people of similar skill, but maybe it'll be tough to learn to play the game "properly" and maybe it will be a "shock" anyway when they decide to go off-næb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most people who will have fun with NS2 aren't stupid. There won't be a shock or something. If a person plays a game for the first time, he just needs time to learn the basics. He stands in spawn while customizing controls or looking at the map. He looks longer at the evolve menu. He watches the graphics for longer. Read and try what buildings do and which are usable.
This all takes time. Not more and not less. You shouldn't act like the new players are retardos who haven't ever played an FPS. They just need some time to look at the game and learn the basics and not being interrupted by a pro-fade or a yelling commander, who does not want to understand why this player isn't moving out of the base, but is hugging the arms lab.
TL;DR: It's a good addition. It will not save you from the douch-players but you can't do anything against them anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I updated the team page with our new programmer Steve: <a href="http://t.co/aWCIJmK4" target="_blank">http://t.co/aWCIJmK4</a> - welcome him!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Great to see your team gets bigger! Some day your company will big as Valve? ;-) Good luck!
Any chance we can have the special ingame icons turn into special ingame armor decals? Floating icons are obtrusive to vision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That armor looks sick but I still like my special floating icon.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tweaking the Lerk to be a bit slower, tougher and...nastier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/Bjc7D.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> And so the cycle of life repeats.
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1981076:date=Sep 21 2012, 10:05 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Sep 21 2012, 10:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981076"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://i.imgur.com/Bjc7D.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> And so the cycle of life repeats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just about to post the exact same picture! :)
I really wish that each alien would really become a unique class rather than just variations of the skulk with different amounts of health. I know there are only so many ways to do melee combat but it seems like now its all like this: <ol type='1'><li>skulk - can bite and leap</li><li>gorge = skulk that can't bite, but can't really build properly either</li><li>lerk = skulk that can fly instead of leap, but biting is risky</li><li>fade = big skulk that can teleport instead of leap, more health, can't destory buildings very well</li><li>onos = huge skulk that does more damage and has heaps of health</li></ol>
Its a shame that the great ideas of class arent expanded on far enough to make them benefit from their differences. maybe that suits the gameplay i dunno, but in a sci-fi setting there are really no limits to making a game exciting and varied.
take the lerk for example - if one day you woke up with wings what fun things would you want to do? say you got into a fight, would you fly up to a person to punch them? no, you'd do something that makes use of your flying ability - like staying of their range and dropping something onto their head, or diving down onto them to crush them or pick them up and drop them.
<!--quoteo(post=1981118:date=Sep 20 2012, 09:52 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Sep 20 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->take the lerk for example - if one day you woke up with wings what fun things would you want to do? say you got into a fight, would you fly up to a person to punch them? no, you'd do something that makes use of your flying ability - like staying of their range and dropping something onto their head, or diving down onto them to crush them or pick them up and drop them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This ^
Unfortunately it might be too late in the development cycle to experiment with many more new lerk mechanics before 1.0.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1981142:date=Sep 20 2012, 10:52 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 20 2012, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2? I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically it's not my fault. I can only suggest changes. I don't approve or implement the changes.
<!--quoteo(post=1981142:date=Sep 21 2012, 03:52 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 21 2012, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2? I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say these things without knowing the facts of how things are done. Instead of trying to insult and troll someone who works <i>tirelessly</i> & <b>for free</b> to help improve the game, I would suggest you come up with some kind of plan for the lerk yourself internetexplorer, with numbers that have been tested & work, and email that to Charlie. He listens to good ideas wherever they come from.
As Saba said, we make suggestions based on how the Lerk is used in both public and comp play. We play pub matches, internal games, watch all the streams and competitive clan matches available. We do not have direct control over balance in the game, that's Charlie's job. So far people are playing and enjoying this game and we will continue to help and make suggestions based on all manners of play.
Consider that next time before making a post that makes you look uninformed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> awesome. who needs constructive feedback when you can just blame some person without even saying what you don't like about it.
personally, i enjoy playing lerk since this patch. the problem i see is that many people don't like to play hit&run or ranged support with it, they are more used to all-in combat. this might change over time though, given that spikes are much more viable on distance now.
no idea if slowing the lerk down is a good idea or not, but i have to admit i never ever saw a reason to get celerity with it yet.
A little slower won't be a big deal, heck if it means being a little tankier and dealing more DPS that's a good trade-off. It's not very viable to swoop in really fast and take a bite or spike, since you're generally going too fast to land enough dps, making it an unrewarding experience. If this means the lerk will once again be able to circle around and spike people for a sustained period, that's a good thing.
Hope the skulk tweet will mean a significant improvement in making the class enjoyable again as well.
Then all you need to do is fix sentries and buff the gorge, so that it actually becomes a combat engineer. (Or buff hydras/get rid of the ridiculous low hydra cap) Do those things and I will officially be a satisfied customer.
<!--quoteo(post=1981241:date=Sep 21 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 21 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not very viable to swoop in really fast and take a bite or spike, since you're generally going too fast to land enough dps, making it an unrewarding experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is why you give him ranged spores ala ns1. Lerk shouldnt be a slow tank, we tried that already and it was horrible.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tweaking the Lerk to be a bit slower, tougher and...nastier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please don't do this. You did this some patches ago, and lerks were way too tanky with 50 armor. Also, making the lerk slower, makes his bite way more risky. Which is definitely not needed. Instead, make the bite a little faster. And lerk should have the power he needs.
Comments
It scares me thinking about a server only filled with newbs that don't know how to play the game properly, it will most likely give the wrong impression of the game to those people and they will never play again.
Then again, it's similarly off-putting to join a server where you get dominated (TF2 gangnam style) or even yelled at during your first hours in the game.
That happens in every game though... so it's nothing new in onlineland.
CS:GO had a næb mode too. I didn't buy it but I had the beta. For someone who has it, did it actually work after release? Are næbs actually playing that mode or is it pretty much dead? Does it fullfill its purpose? It might be a good case study for UW as the game was released just a month ago. If it didn't work in CS:GO it won't work in NS2.
i cannot imagine anyone would permanently quit a game he played for less than a few hours (rookie mode will not last very long), if it is a non-casual game like ns2 with lots of different content and mechanics to explore.
in any case i think it is less likely to be a reason than veteran fades mopping the floor with them. you can already see several people on the forums complaining about what they think is cheating because the skill gaps can be huge.
also, charlie mentioned something about coaching on these servers.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if I want to join the same server as my rookie friend who I just gave my copy to, will I be able to?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
your friend can always turn this off and by default, any server will be a mixed server (as far as i understood it). for more details (although they are not final), also watch the previous dev Q&A (not the one today) starting at minute 9.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one is ever going to use a rookie mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just because you wouldn't doesnt mean nobody would. so please post any kind of evidence outside of your personal oppinion, or at least explain the reasons behind your point of view. because my personal oppinion is quite the opposite as you can tell by several previous posts.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS:GO had a næb mode too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i don't think cs compares well with ns2 as even the basics in ns2 seem much more complex. but i agree that it could be nice to learn from potential issues here.
overall i can relate to people who see potential drawbacks concerning rookie servers. but without any kind of matchmaking, i don't see any better solution regarding the upcoming skill gaps and their massive potential for frustration. remember we're probably having 50%+ of the community being absolute newbies at 1.0 (45000 copies given out + steam preorders)! so chances of having "proper" games as you guys descripe it seem rather low for that point in time.
ok we finally got an official text:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Servers that are set as “rookie friendly†should show up as such in the server browser:
All players are marked as “rookies†until they have logged 4 hours of play. During this time, their communication (chat, voice icon) are displayed in green and they are indicated to others as a new player. Other players are told to help rookies via a loading screen hint.
Players can disable display of themselves as “rookies†by turning it off in the options
After 4 hours, you are automatically set to not being a rookie. Even if you turn it back on, it will turn off every 30 seconds of play.
This is a social convention, nothing is enforced. I’m hoping this is enough to let players get games with others that aren’t way above their skill level, allowing them to get some kills and some guidance while they are learning. There could still be poachers, but hopefully there will be less then without rookie mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so as i understand this anyone is still allowed to play on the rookie servers. i'm indeed concerned about poachers but this solution eliminates some possible drawbacks and it should work nicely for pre-1.0 at least.
Most people who will have fun with NS2 aren't stupid. There won't be a shock or something. If a person plays a game for the first time, he just needs time to learn the basics. He stands in spawn while customizing controls or looking at the map. He looks longer at the evolve menu. He watches the graphics for longer. Read and try what buildings do and which are usable.
This all takes time. Not more and not less. You shouldn't act like the new players are retardos who haven't ever played an FPS. They just need some time to look at the game and learn the basics and not being interrupted by a pro-fade or a yelling commander, who does not want to understand why this player isn't moving out of the base, but is hugging the arms lab.
TL;DR: It's a good addition. It will not save you from the douch-players but you can't do anything against them anyway.
Great to see your team gets bigger!
Some day your company will big as Valve? ;-)
Good luck!
PS. checking out your music while I work :)
It's Steve An.
:V
Anyways, It'll be interesting to see how he tackles the ns2 codebase.
Any chance we can have the special ingame icons turn into special ingame armor decals? Floating icons are obtrusive to vision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That armor looks sick but I still like my special floating icon.
you are just mean.
droping something like that without details.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Bjc7D.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
And so the cycle of life repeats.
And so the cycle of life repeats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was just about to post the exact same picture! :)
I really wish that each alien would really become a unique class rather than just variations of the skulk with different amounts of health. I know there are only so many ways to do melee combat but it seems like now its all like this:
<ol type='1'><li>skulk - can bite and leap</li><li>gorge = skulk that can't bite, but can't really build properly either</li><li>lerk = skulk that can fly instead of leap, but biting is risky</li><li>fade = big skulk that can teleport instead of leap, more health, can't destory buildings very well</li><li>onos = huge skulk that does more damage and has heaps of health</li></ol>
Its a shame that the great ideas of class arent expanded on far enough to make them benefit from their differences. maybe that suits the gameplay i dunno, but in a sci-fi setting there are really no limits to making a game exciting and varied.
take the lerk for example - if one day you woke up with wings what fun things would you want to do? say you got into a fight, would you fly up to a person to punch them? no, you'd do something that makes use of your flying ability - like staying of their range and dropping something onto their head, or diving down onto them to crush them or pick them up and drop them.
we already tried that
the community said no
do you have short term memory loss?
Get Celerity.
can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2?
I feel it's about time..
This ^
Unfortunately it might be too late in the development cycle to experiment with many more new lerk mechanics before 1.0.
I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Technically it's not my fault. I can only suggest changes. I don't approve or implement the changes.
I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say these things without knowing the facts of how things are done. Instead of trying to insult and troll someone who works <i>tirelessly</i> & <b>for free</b> to help improve the game, I would suggest you come up with some kind of plan for the lerk yourself internetexplorer, with numbers that have been tested & work, and email that to Charlie. He listens to good ideas wherever they come from.
As Saba said, we make suggestions based on how the Lerk is used in both public and comp play. We play pub matches, internal games, watch all the streams and competitive clan matches available. We do not have direct control over balance in the game, that's Charlie's job. So far people are playing and enjoying this game and we will continue to help and make suggestions based on all manners of play.
Consider that next time before making a post that makes you look uninformed.
awesome. who needs constructive feedback when you can just blame some person without even saying what you don't like about it.
personally, i enjoy playing lerk since this patch. the problem i see is that many people don't like to play hit&run or ranged support with it, they are more used to all-in combat. this might change over time though, given that spikes are much more viable on distance now.
no idea if slowing the lerk down is a good idea or not, but i have to admit i never ever saw a reason to get celerity with it yet.
Hope the skulk tweet will mean a significant improvement in making the class enjoyable again as well.
Then all you need to do is fix sentries and buff the gorge, so that it actually becomes a combat engineer. (Or buff hydras/get rid of the ridiculous low hydra cap) Do those things and I will officially be a satisfied customer.
This is why you give him ranged spores ala ns1. Lerk shouldnt be a slow tank, we tried that already and it was horrible.
Please don't do this. You did this some patches ago, and lerks were way too tanky with 50 armor.
Also, making the lerk slower, makes his bite way more risky. Which is definitely not needed.
Instead, make the bite a little faster. And lerk should have the power he needs.