Natural Selection 2 News Update - The Shotgun

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  • CrispixCrispix Join Date: 2007-01-10 Member: 59543Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1774205:date=Jun 10 2010, 12:46 AM:name=brownymaster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brownymaster @ Jun 10 2010, 12:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The shotgun is looking good besides the redundant LED/counter you've already mentioned. Gameplay wise though, I'd really like to know what's going to happen with the clip nerf and the faster reload (any balance regarding a "slow" reload start animation but quick pellet loading like the old NS). I remember seeing that you wanted to make shotguns less powerful against skulks although still a good weapon, yet the clip nerf doesn't really change the ability for the shotgun to dominate skulks

    Now, I don't exactly know what's happened because you've realized how weird it'd be to have the shotgun to be effective early and against lategame aliens. So I'm assuming there's going to be a damage nerf or a change in the pellet spread and damage (I guess try to make an inner radius that can do good damage but not 1shot and an outlier pellet that will land in a far arc from the center so only point blank shots 1shot?) but this only make the shotgun a less effective and useful item overall. Are shotguns going to be cheaper overall, or will they get a structure damage buff to end up being a "balanced" weapon for structure killing and alien hunting (HMG/Minigun vs Grenade Launcher/???, assuming the GL will make a comeback)? It seems like the shotgun is more designed for structure killing than alien killing, but I guess that's because the metagame is changing so marines are less dominant early game. It also seems less useful considering the Axe is going to be strong against undefended structures, and generally you won't be wasting ammo/pellets if there's aliens around and even more so since the clip size has been nerfed so that you won't have as many shots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Grenade launcher is now an attachment for the assault rifle.
  • brownymasterbrownymaster Join Date: 2009-07-11 Member: 68110Members
    Nice quoting the entire thing to talk about my ???. I assumed it was a replacement for the HAND grenade, considering that a hand grenade will be with most LMG marines and you really won't be seeing 20 rifle grenades on one marine. The grenade launcher was effective at keeping skulks at bay, killing structure masses, killing things (structures mainly since lifeforms will just move) behind walls/vents/anything you need to bank off of, and just general area denial/damage. I'm really hoping and assuming they will put another explosive weapon (not nerve gas) beyond a Rifle Grenade that is limited in ammo and only with no equip marines.
  • LoeyLoey Join Date: 2009-10-31 Member: 69187Members
    whats wrong with a marine carrying 20x rifle grenades around? they'd be the same as the ones going in a grenade launcher
  • Paul-HewsonPaul-Hewson Join Date: 2008-02-25 Member: 63737Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2010
    Already said :) xD
  • PhaetonPhaeton Join Date: 2008-05-03 Member: 64203Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1773988:date=Jun 9 2010, 01:38 AM:name=Lemming Jesus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lemming Jesus @ Jun 9 2010, 01:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where are the shells coming from while he reloads? It also takes up a ton of screen space when reloading as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah I noticed that it takes a lot of the screen too when it reloads. Also it seems to me like it takes longer to reload than the NS1 shotty. But it looks great :)
  • szmukszmuk Join Date: 2010-06-08 Member: 71993Members
    IMO the shooting sound is just wrong. It has that nice low tone feeling to it, but sounds as if the shotgun wasn't shot in your hands, but rather somewhere behind a wall, in another section of the map. This is propably because the sound only consists of bass, the lack of mid and high frequencies is the effect you get when something is happening far away or behind an obstacle. I think that simply adding some mid tone to the shot will solve the problem.
  • Shrike3OShrike3O Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6678Members, Constellation
    I think the topside reload looks cool, it just means the lower tube needs to be the barrel :) Ejector would have to move too...
  • TrueTrue Join Date: 2004-03-16 Member: 27361Members
    Whoa, after all the issues with the rifle ergonomics and technical underpinnings, it looks like the shotgun was also designed by technogeek methheads...

    1) How do you expect anyone to aim with unnecessary light (ammo readout) in their eyes? I know it was stated that this was a cheap solution, but it isn't helping the sight picture any. (Possible solution or explanation: does the text fade when viewed head-on?) - but then again, TSA marines don't need to aim by viewing on the same plane as the bore, so maybe this doesn't matter, but then what's with the blade sight?

    2) Is the type of shot used the future's standard superindependentvelocity type that goes faster than a standard rifled bullet? I find it odd that shot from a shotgun would be more effective towards armor than a high velocity rifled bullet would. Especially considering the barrel is what, 6-8 inches long? Protip: in real life, shotguns aren't as effective as rifles against armor, especially with a short barrel. (Flayra posted a response possibly acknowledging this issue.)

    3) There appears to be a tube magazine on the bottom. Shells load at the top, <b>through the barrel.</b> What the hell is with TSA and these weapon designs? How is this supposed to work? How is this more reliable (shells passing through a barrel) than a bottom feed? If top feed works better, perhaps the barrel and mag tube should be swapped. (I'm not the first to mention this...) By moving the barrel and action where the lower tube is, the entire upper area can be used for shell storage (which could hold more than 6). Or, if you want that top pop thing, have that throw shells out to the side and load the shotgun from the side. There's lots of other "futuristic" ways this could be done that are physically possible.

    4) TSA in NS2 are on the way to lighting their own destruction. Indicators are nice but being lit up only means the enemy sees you too. Hopefully the side indicators, if used, aren't exceedingly bright. (I expect this comment to not be refuted, but simply ignored)

    5) What happens when the batteries run out? :)

    6) Why does the weapon care how much additional ammo one holds? I'm guessing this is linked in with some local to the soldier network so this is a minor concern.

    7) What's with all the wasted space and crap at the back? I figure some could be for recoil compensators, but that much?

    But why am I wasting my time? ...

    (disclaimer: I own dozens of firearms and shoot at least once per week)
  • PhiXXPhiXX Join Date: 2008-10-22 Member: 65274Members
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1774227:date=Jun 10 2010, 10:49 AM:name=True)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True @ Jun 10 2010, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) What happens when the batteries run out? :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    TSA field studies have proven that until the batteries for crosshair and other tech are depleted the average frontline soldier should be dead already!
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Sounds awesome.
    Looks awesome.
    But the hand doesn't hold cartridges when reloading and if you have to hammer it shut with your hand you gonna have one hell of a hurt there.
  • BollekeBolleke Join Date: 2010-06-10 Member: 72013Members
    You don't have to "pump" the shotgun after loading more cartridges into it, unless it was empty. So after the reloading animation, the pump animation shouldn't be played, unless your shotgun was empty when you started reloading.
  • Lt.RealnessLt.Realness Join Date: 2004-03-17 Member: 27379Members
    I really like that design! Good job!
  • szmukszmuk Join Date: 2010-06-08 Member: 71993Members
    edited June 2010
    Bolleke, this is a pump action shotgun, not a semi automatic one. I agree that this isn't too futuristic, but I wouldn't like to see a shotty with pistol fire rate, at least not when playing skulk.
  • puzlpuzl The Old Firm Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Great job, it really looks fantastic!
  • BulletcatcherBulletcatcher Join Date: 2005-01-08 Member: 33823Members
    The model looks really nice, but I do not like the animations...Especially the reloading animation. It is in the way of the screen to much. I would prefer the 'marine' to drop the gun lower to reload, because who raises their gun higher to reload a shotgun? Also, where are the shells coming from?
  • Silencer91Silencer91 Join Date: 2009-03-13 Member: 66728Members
    I didn't even notice this at first, but yeah the reloading animation is covering the center of the screen. That is unforgiveable.
  • ZycaRZycaR Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8263Members
    The marine will roll his shotgun to the left side (in about 80' - 90' angle), and then re-load not in the middle of screen, but nicely at the bottom of screen ... from the left side..

    That will looks badass
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Looks great. I like how you can look at-a-glace at teh LEDs for ammo count as well as the Normal Display. Great idea.
  • MotigMotig Join Date: 2008-10-23 Member: 65281Members
    I like the way it looks but I think the sound is a bit tame compared to the NS1 one.
  • Donner & BlitzenDonner & Blitzen Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70879Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1774101:date=Jun 9 2010, 09:50 AM:name=Silencer91)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silencer91 @ Jun 9 2010, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The finished in-game model doesn't look half as cool as your concept art. Anyway, good job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Weird, considering they look...identical.
  • Donner & BlitzenDonner & Blitzen Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70879Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1774227:date=Jun 10 2010, 04:49 AM:name=True)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True @ Jun 10 2010, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Nanites
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    Shotgun? check! ...moving along.
  • steppin'razorsteppin'razor Join Date: 2008-09-18 Member: 65033Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1774101:date=Jun 9 2010, 11:50 PM:name=Silencer91)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silencer91 @ Jun 9 2010, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774101"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The finished in-game model doesn't look half as cool as your concept art. Anyway, good job.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    In my opinion concept art almost always triumphs ingame assets in all games. Well, good concept art anyway.
  • szmukszmuk Join Date: 2010-06-08 Member: 71993Members
    Concept and model aren't identical. The art had that nice bit of 'dirt' to it, which the in game render lacks, but that's just my opinion.
  • -Drake--Drake- -dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ- Join Date: 2003-04-02 Member: 15125Members
    edited June 2010
    Magpul dynamics phoned, they want their stock back :D

    On a serious note I like the design and idea behind it but as somebody already mentioned I think it definitely needs the barrel and feed tube switched around for top loading to make any sense.

    The halo shotgun is a good example of what I mean with the shells being housed above the barrel.

    <img src="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/d/da/M90_Shotgun.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    Looking good guys!
  • briktalbriktal Join Date: 2003-08-20 Member: 20021Members, Constellation
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1774227:date=Jul 4 1776, 04:49 AM:name=True)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (True @ Jul 4 1776, 04:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whoa, after all the issues with the rifle ergonomics and technical underpinnings, it looks like the shotgun was also designed by technogeek methheads...

    1) How do you expect anyone to aim with unnecessary light (ammo readout) in their eyes? I know it was stated that this was a cheap solution, but it isn't helping the sight picture any. (Possible solution or explanation: does the text fade when viewed head-on?) - but then again, TSA marines don't need to aim by viewing on the same plane as the bore, so maybe this doesn't matter, but then what's with the blade sight?

    2) Is the type of shot used the future's standard superindependentvelocity type that goes faster than a standard rifled bullet? I find it odd that shot from a shotgun would be more effective towards armor than a high velocity rifled bullet would. Especially considering the barrel is what, 6-8 inches long? Protip: in real life, shotguns aren't as effective as rifles against armor, especially with a short barrel. (Flayra posted a response possibly acknowledging this issue.)

    3) There appears to be a tube magazine on the bottom. Shells load at the top, <b>through the barrel.</b> What the hell is with TSA and these weapon designs? How is this supposed to work? How is this more reliable (shells passing through a barrel) than a bottom feed? If top feed works better, perhaps the barrel and mag tube should be swapped. (I'm not the first to mention this...) By moving the barrel and action where the lower tube is, the entire upper area can be used for shell storage (which could hold more than 6). Or, if you want that top pop thing, have that throw shells out to the side and load the shotgun from the side. There's lots of other "futuristic" ways this could be done that are physically possible.

    4) TSA in NS2 are on the way to lighting their own destruction. Indicators are nice but being lit up only means the enemy sees you too. Hopefully the side indicators, if used, aren't exceedingly bright. (I expect this comment to not be refuted, but simply ignored)

    5) What happens when the batteries run out? :)

    6) Why does the weapon care how much additional ammo one holds? I'm guessing this is linked in with some local to the soldier network so this is a minor concern.

    7) What's with all the wasted space and crap at the back? I figure some could be for recoil compensators, but that much?

    But why am I wasting my time? ...

    (disclaimer: I own dozens of firearms and shoot at least once per week)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->
    1) As someone who shoots regularly, you should obviously know that even a little bit of training will make this a non-issue.

    2) I assume you know how guns work? Propulsion methods and round construction that increase armor penetration ability at the cost of poor stability and power over longer ranges. Very likely (lore wise) to be specially tuned for the fight against creatures with heavy natural armor at close range.

    3) Probably all lore: analysis of weapon malfunctions caused by damage to the weapons. Those aliens have sharp teeth and claws ;)

    4) It's fairly obvious that the aliens have little trouble seeing the marines. For covert ops these most likely get covered up or possibly turned off.

    5) I doubt the weapon would be in any condition to fire if it has been around long enough for the batteries to go out.

    6) The weapon isn't showing the ammo counter to feel good about itself. This is information for the marine. The fact that the armory exists goes along with this feature.

    7) This goes back to #2.

    <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

    ~~Sickle~~
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    Reload animation is going to be reworked with the gun lower so that the animation takes up less screen space, and we hope to sort out the "magical" appearing shells, at the same time.

    --Cory
  • StarClawsStarClaws Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9974Members
    edited June 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1774144:date=Jun 9 2010, 03:04 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra @ Jun 9 2010, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I hope it is still the choice for all around battles when the marines have resources to spend. The high powered damage boost at close range compared to LMG made aliens think twice about attacking really close and caused a lot of stare downs where neither team fired for quite a while. These were often tense moments and pauses in the battle... Making it fun! :) Most teams didn't get a new lerk to weaken them and it usually costed them the hive or atleast a fade. Plus it was tier 1, low cost, and the aliens we're likely to target the tier 2 armory on base rush. HMGs/GLs were still used, but due to the long research time and the cost, they were often late game. By then, the alien team had advanced far enough to secure a win while the marine team was -3 shotguns at the cost of tier 2 and lost strategic locations on the battlefield.

    <!--quoteo(post=1774080:date=Jun 9 2010, 06:56 AM:name=DooGie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DooGie @ Jun 9 2010, 06:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774080"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->r_drawviewmodel 0 . It happened to me in tf2 and I play without weapon model since then. ;D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Assuming we get that command... Haven't even tried it in the engine test yet.

    <!--quoteo(post=1774298:date=Jun 10 2010, 05:03 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Jun 10 2010, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774298"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reload animation is going to be reworked with the gun lower so that the animation takes up less screen space, and we hope to sort out the "magical" appearing shells, at the same time.
    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Hurray! I was hoping we could get magic in NS2!!! Like LIGHTNING BOLT SHOTGUN SHELLS RARRR ... :)
  • KwilKwil Join Date: 2003-07-06 Member: 17963Members
    edited June 2010
    Design Proposal Response to Trans-System Authority Technical Consideration Specification Document TSA-WD/SG-2.001

    VORTEX Tactical Shotgun - Executive Summary

    Replication Issues: Volume and space being primary considerations both for space travel and for nanite replication control the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun has an inactive state which is 20% shorter than its active state. This allows for easy replication regardless of the size of nanite dispersal system. As Trans-System Authority action may occur within older bases without a full nanite replication grid, this shorter form allows the deployment of the VORTEX tactical shotgun in smaller nanite replicators which may be found within older substations. In Active State, the VORTEX tactical shotgun retains full bracing and stock ability.

    Ammunition Management Issues: As noted in the Technical Consideration Specification Document (TCD), poor ammunition management was a significant cause of Frontiersman casualty. The VORTEX Tactical Shotgun addresses this with a triple-redundancy system, with the aim of reducing this cause to trivial levels.

    System 1: Active LED Point System Ammunition Counter Display -- Easily visible lights on the side of the weapon make clear at all times the number of round remaining for use. Single-shot granular in nature, the point-system makes determining whether a shot is available a binary interpretation on the part of the Frontiersman, (lights on=fire, lights off=reload) and provides additional information as to the number of shots currently remaining.

    System 2: Pop-up Numerical Display -- In numerical fashion, this display provides a redundancy tot he Active LED Point System as to the amount of ammunition remaining in the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun, as well as displaying, via nanite-network reading, the total amount of additional ammunition the Frontiersman is carrying within the VORTEX Ammunition Containment System.

    System 3: Top-mounted Barrel Loading Mechanism -- When the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun has expended all ammunition, the top-mounted barrel loading mechanism automatically pops up, providing an immediate and visible reminder to the Frontiersman that more ammunition is required, as well as easy access for the Frontiersman to reload the weapon while maintaining a near firing position. Ammunition is loaded literally through the firing barrel into the magazine below, in order to ensure that the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun is always primed for firing.

    Kharaa Adaptation and Bacterium Infestation Issues: The TCD informs that nanite-reliant ammunition is increasingly under attack from the bacterium. VORTEX ammunition is designed with an outer-casing of two separate layers, the outer layer being an active nanite layer which serves as both defense against bacterium and notification for the VORTEX numerical display and the inner layer being an inert molecular lattice of less than .08 nm spacing. Inside this shell is a collection of microscopic active nanite particles which separate when fired, and upon contact attempt to pull as much of any material not designated as friendly (through the standard "friendly fire" detection mechanism, built into the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun and transmitted through the nanite grid to the particles) into itself by disrupting the molecular bonds. It is from this action that the VORTEX gets its name. This procedure works best, of course, on denser materials (such as armor) so that the limited power of the nanite particle can have the greatest effect before it burns out. The inert casing shell is then manually expelled from the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun via the pump mechanism. This pump mechanism serves dual purpose by using piezo-electric generators to ensure that the VORTEX Tactical Shotgun remains powered throughout use.

    Bacterium Defense Issues: The VORTEX Tactical Shotgun comes complete with its own bacterium defense mechanisms including the latest in portable bacterium analysis and an active nanite layer to protect the weapon from dissasembly by the bacterium. However, as is known, this is a difficult task. In heavily infested environments, unless supported by a Frontiersman's own personal nanite barrier, it cannot be expected that the system will be able to match the adaptation rate of the bacterium for more than a few minutes, and even providing that level of protection comes at the cost of significant weight and bulk, which has been placed close to the handle in order to improve the balance of the weapon. However, it is our estimation that even the few minutes protection this provides will be of significant aid to TSA Frontiersmen, as it will allow them to retrieve a functioning VORTEX Tactical Shotgun from a fallen compatriot for a few moments, which may make the crucial difference in a rapidly evolving tactical situation. Given Kharaa ferocity, if the weapon is unable to be retrieved within those few moments, it is likely unneeded at that point regardless.

    We hope that this will address your primary concerns. Please contact our offices if you have any further questions.

    Technical specifications will be sent under separate cover to the designated engineering contact for this contract for their approval.
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