<!--quoteo(post=1751822:date=Feb 8 2010, 01:35 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Feb 8 2010, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The realization that it's already too late for NS2 to live up to what the vet community needed it be is hard to accept<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never got, and will never get, this attitude. Back before NS 1.03 there was no way to predict this game would become a fun strategic team shooter that would generate a lasting community, let alone before NS was released. But every new patch (excepting combat, maybe) made NS more polished and focused on the basics of the fast paced combat because Charlie paid attention to what people said and how they played his game. I don't think that's an arguable point.
I totally support arguing for changes that would make the game more appealing to competition, I'm in the hardcore camp if I'm anywhere, but...
If you, or all of the other "vets" can't accept UWE's track record of listening to the competitive community (maybe you weren't around during 2.0 beta), at least you should be able to realize that the jury is still out on NS2, and will be until release (not alpha, or beta). But I see people constantly, thread after thread, making ridiculous hyperbolic arguments like, "ZOMG lerk bite is gone NS IS DOOOOOOMED."
No, no it's not.
Anyway, maybe NS2 ends up sucking giant donkey balls. It's within the realm of possibility. I have a great solution if that happens: find something else to do, it's just a videogame.
<!--quoteo(post=1751958:date=Feb 8 2010, 09:16 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Feb 8 2010, 09:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751958"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never got, and will never get, this attitude. If you, or all of the other "vets" can't accept UWE's track record of listening to the competitive community (maybe you weren't around during 2.0 beta), at least you should be able to realize that the jury is still out on NS2, and will be until release (not alpha, or beta). But I see people constantly, thread after thread, making ridiculous hyperbolic arguments like, "ZOMG lerk bite is gone NS IS DOOOOOOMED."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not about change, it's about <i>where</i> the change is directed. No one is as concerned (perhaps interested) if changes are made with justifications such as "it is overpowered" or "it is redundant" or "a new tech branch has been added"; this may fall into the 'wait and see' category. However if numerous and sweeping changes are made under (or at least smack of) the pretenses of "making it more open and accessible and less complex to the newcomer" or "simplifying the learning curve" then this is where vets have cause for concern. The two ideals are almost always mutually exclusive - catering to one excludes the other. Some thought a happy balance was achieved in NS1, but 'lo word is spreading: "NS was too complex for the average newcomer". Now we're seeing a razing of the skill ceiling with reductions to map complexity, round times, combat mechanics, commanding strategy, etc.
You see these simply as 'changes', more savvy vets see them as cop-outs, a bid for the ever-lucrative casual market. Sure you can willfully ignore tell-tale signs and claim 'oh but we can never know until NS2 is released'. True But how lacking in foresight would you need to be as a TFC vet to simply sit by every update as the game got more cartoon-y and zany and simply say "oh well, changes can be good, we'll have to wait and see"? It is I who does not 'get' this attitude - it's in praise of ignorance.
<!--quoteo(post=1751966:date=Feb 9 2010, 04:08 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Feb 9 2010, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now we're seeing a razing of the skill ceiling with reductions to map complexity, round times, combat mechanics, commanding strategy, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are not dumbing down NS. We are not "catering to the casual market". We are simply making the best game that we feel we would want to play, and also trying to improve upon aspects of the first NS that needed improving (and I'm sorry, but it's up to us as the creators of the game to decide what those aspects are...and of course its up to you as the consumer to decide whether to buy the game or not).
So, a few things. People see a feature like sprint being added and immediately jump to the conclusion that we are just trying to pull in people from MW2 or something. But, as NS players ourselves we know how frustrating it was to have to slowly make your way across an entire map, just to get to a battle you know is raging, only to get there too late to be effective. Using it won't be without a cost and there will be repercussions to using sprint that will insure its not always the most viable option (and it won't mean marines will be running circles around skulks).
Simplified maps do not mean small, boring, and lacking in strategy. It means that a map doesn't have to be a labyrinth of similar looking, featureless hallways, that experienced players can dominate, merely through their memorization of whether to turn left or right to get to the hive room. Having first time players become hopelessly lost and frustrated on their first playing experience is not good game design. Maps in NS2 will still have plenty of hallways, many secondary routes and vents, enclosed versus open spaces, different levels of playing height (as much as commander mode allows for), and enough complexity that it will still take a good amount of playthroughs to fully explore and memorize. But we are focused on making as many of the areas on the map as thematic and visually distinct as possible, and laid out more logically, so that players can recognize quickly where they are.
For every feature you hear about that is being removed there are as many if not more that are being added, to insure that the depth is still there. Yes some combat mechanics and commanding strategies are being changed and altered, but that should be exciting for people to want to jump into the game and discover new effective strategies.
<!--quoteo(post=1751970:date=Feb 9 2010, 12:58 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 9 2010, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We are not dumbing down NS. We are not "catering to the casual market".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hearing it directly in those terms goes a long way - thank you, and I'll hold you to it.
<!--quoteo(post=1751974:date=Feb 9 2010, 04:27 PM:name=ctd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ctd @ Feb 9 2010, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Important question: Will be we able to shack? Or relo to vents?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No idea about shacking but from what I understand you can only build CC's on designated nodes
In the event that you need to go from one place to another without having to watch out for enemies, use sprint, if there are enemies then you'll be better off watching out for them and not sprinting because I would imagine that sprinting would give you a shooting delay or something as well as making you unable to really look around because you're moving too fast.
Just because it's there doesn't mean the entire game is based around it surely, and I can't think of a game where sprinting would not be useful at some point. Plus it's almost a standard control nowadays, you put it in simply because people expect it, like jumping, even though jumping is often not that useful to a standard FPS player other than for bunnyhopping.
Oh also I withdraw all my criticism of the video because after I watched it in HD fullscreen it made a lot more sense, the turrets actually look pretty ok and I can actually see what the command station is, it just looked like a weird box before. Except the sprint animation that's stiill horrible, although it would be good if NS2 ever gets researchable hodowns as a marine strategy and the soundtrack featured a techno remix of cotton eye joe.
<!--quoteo(post=1751985:date=Feb 9 2010, 07:38 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Feb 9 2010, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure! but wouldn't that be a room then?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1751986:date=Feb 9 2010, 07:41 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 9 2010, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could call it Ventillation..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Must be hard for a small indi dev team to multitask not just the progress in development but almost equal important things like public relations and then get judged over maybe one mistake releaseing a video with good intentions. Most of the games get the last polishing and "get their things together" in the last days of developement (crunch time). I also think this video looks low fps, maybe it was recored with frap ans took extra cpu or it was just wrong encoded, maybe it is low fps for some other reason but as far as i can tell, all the shooter fans on the pc want more fps over quality. There should be a "better" video on its way or some details why it is - that - low on fps. If you develope a game and you can say honestly it kicks ass then you will find buyers for sure. I won't decited if i buy it until i get a chance to play a beta, demo or the final release but so far i think with linux servers the game got a real chance now but only if there is a serious anti-cheat solution (mandatory) included too ;)
So here we are waiting for more HD video footage with included hardware specs and settings :D
Right...because going to one place to another is so boring. Well, maybe if we have like a phasegate or something, OH yeah we do have it...and was back in NS 1.
Okay let see now....
Small map + Sprinting for marines = Spawn camping at 5 seconds start of round
<!--quoteo(post=1752002:date=Feb 9 2010, 10:10 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Feb 9 2010, 10:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->although it would be good if NS2 ever gets researchable hodowns as a marine strategy and the soundtrack featured a techno remix of cotton eye joe.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1751357:date=Feb 6 2010, 04:44 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Feb 6 2010, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glad you like the music. We are really happy with the direction the music is going in, and I've been enjoying listening to the songs while I work. Currently there are plans for a soundtrack.
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, i like the music too.
1. saw a parasite sprite. great sighting. 2. lots of eye candy. 3. beefy lmg - glad to see the sten lmg w/ scope is gone.
-'s - 1. video/fps lag, was that a garbage comp you're running it on ? i don't have money to upgrade my rig to play one game 2. sounds, skulk running - placeholder i hope/assume. 3. sprinting marine - can we not turn into every other fps please. 4. gorge? model - looked like a fat hog running around. 5. ammocount on lmg model, aliens pulse rifle imo - no need.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1752017:date=Feb 9 2010, 09:48 AM:name=fuyuki359)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fuyuki359 @ Feb 9 2010, 09:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1752017"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Right...because going to one place to another is so boring. Well, maybe if we have like a phasegate or something, OH yeah we do have it...and was back in NS 1.
Okay let see now....
Small map + Sprinting for marines = Spawn camping at 5 seconds start of round
how charming...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for sharing your experiences after you have intensively play tested ns2
Comments
I never got, and will never get, this attitude. Back before NS 1.03 there was no way to predict this game would become a fun strategic team shooter that would generate a lasting community, let alone before NS was released. But every new patch (excepting combat, maybe) made NS more polished and focused on the basics of the fast paced combat because Charlie paid attention to what people said and how they played his game. I don't think that's an arguable point.
I totally support arguing for changes that would make the game more appealing to competition, I'm in the hardcore camp if I'm anywhere, but...
If you, or all of the other "vets" can't accept UWE's track record of listening to the competitive community (maybe you weren't around during 2.0 beta), at least you should be able to realize that the jury is still out on NS2, and will be until release (not alpha, or beta). But I see people constantly, thread after thread, making ridiculous hyperbolic arguments like, "ZOMG lerk bite is gone NS IS DOOOOOOMED."
No, no it's not.
Anyway, maybe NS2 ends up sucking giant donkey balls. It's within the realm of possibility. I have a great solution if that happens: find something else to do, it's just a videogame.
If you, or all of the other "vets" can't accept UWE's track record of listening to the competitive community (maybe you weren't around during 2.0 beta), at least you should be able to realize that the jury is still out on NS2, and will be until release (not alpha, or beta). But I see people constantly, thread after thread, making ridiculous hyperbolic arguments like, "ZOMG lerk bite is gone NS IS DOOOOOOMED."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not about change, it's about <i>where</i> the change is directed. No one is as concerned (perhaps interested) if changes are made with justifications such as "it is overpowered" or "it is redundant" or "a new tech branch has been added"; this may fall into the 'wait and see' category. However if numerous and sweeping changes are made under (or at least smack of) the pretenses of "making it more open and accessible and less complex to the newcomer" or "simplifying the learning curve" then this is where vets have cause for concern. The two ideals are almost always mutually exclusive - catering to one excludes the other. Some thought a happy balance was achieved in NS1, but 'lo word is spreading: "NS was too complex for the average newcomer". Now we're seeing a razing of the skill ceiling with reductions to map complexity, round times, combat mechanics, commanding strategy, etc.
You see these simply as 'changes', more savvy vets see them as cop-outs, a bid for the ever-lucrative casual market. Sure you can willfully ignore tell-tale signs and claim 'oh but we can never know until NS2 is released'.
True
But how lacking in foresight would you need to be as a TFC vet to simply sit by every update as the game got more cartoon-y and zany and simply say "oh well, changes can be good, we'll have to wait and see"? It is I who does not 'get' this attitude - it's in praise of ignorance.
We are not dumbing down NS. We are not "catering to the casual market". We are simply making the best game that we feel we would want to play, and also trying to improve upon aspects of the first NS that needed improving (and I'm sorry, but it's up to us as the creators of the game to decide what those aspects are...and of course its up to you as the consumer to decide whether to buy the game or not).
So, a few things. People see a feature like sprint being added and immediately jump to the conclusion that we are just trying to pull in people from MW2 or something. But, as NS players ourselves we know how frustrating it was to have to slowly make your way across an entire map, just to get to a battle you know is raging, only to get there too late to be effective. Using it won't be without a cost and there will be repercussions to using sprint that will insure its not always the most viable option (and it won't mean marines will be running circles around skulks).
Simplified maps do not mean small, boring, and lacking in strategy. It means that a map doesn't have to be a labyrinth of similar looking, featureless hallways, that experienced players can dominate, merely through their memorization of whether to turn left or right to get to the hive room. Having first time players become hopelessly lost and frustrated on their first playing experience is not good game design. Maps in NS2 will still have plenty of hallways, many secondary routes and vents, enclosed versus open spaces, different levels of playing height (as much as commander mode allows for), and enough complexity that it will still take a good amount of playthroughs to fully explore and memorize. But we are focused on making as many of the areas on the map as thematic and visually distinct as possible, and laid out more logically, so that players can recognize quickly where they are.
For every feature you hear about that is being removed there are as many if not more that are being added, to insure that the depth is still there. Yes some combat mechanics and commanding strategies are being changed and altered, but that should be exciting for people to want to jump into the game and discover new effective strategies.
Ok...that;'s enough of my Blah Blah for tonight.
--Cory
Without blue posts the forum would become a ragetrain..
Hearing it directly in those terms goes a long way - thank you, and I'll hold you to it.
i wanna have a ride on your gorgie stick ^^
awesome!!!
RELEASE DATE !!!! :D :D :D :D
No idea about shacking but from what I understand you can only build CC's on designated nodes
There probably won't be a tech point in there.
In the event that you need to go from one place to another without having to watch out for enemies, use sprint, if there are enemies then you'll be better off watching out for them and not sprinting because I would imagine that sprinting would give you a shooting delay or something as well as making you unable to really look around because you're moving too fast.
Just because it's there doesn't mean the entire game is based around it surely, and I can't think of a game where sprinting would not be useful at some point. Plus it's almost a standard control nowadays, you put it in simply because people expect it, like jumping, even though jumping is often not that useful to a standard FPS player other than for bunnyhopping.
Oh also I withdraw all my criticism of the video because after I watched it in HD fullscreen it made a lot more sense, the turrets actually look pretty ok and I can actually see what the command station is, it just looked like a weird box before. Except the sprint animation that's stiill horrible, although it would be good if NS2 ever gets researchable hodowns as a marine strategy and the soundtrack featured a techno remix of cotton eye joe.
<!--quoteo(post=1751986:date=Feb 9 2010, 07:41 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 9 2010, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1751986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could call it Ventillation..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could be on to something there lad! :p
So here we are waiting for more HD video footage with included hardware specs and settings :D
Okay let see now....
Small map + Sprinting for marines = Spawn camping at 5 seconds start of round
how charming...
Ooh. Best idea I've heard since the Taser.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, i like the music too.
1. saw a parasite sprite. great sighting.
2. lots of eye candy.
3. beefy lmg - glad to see the sten lmg w/ scope is gone.
-'s -
1. video/fps lag, was that a garbage comp you're running it on ? i don't have money to upgrade my rig to play one game
2. sounds, skulk running - placeholder i hope/assume.
3. sprinting marine - can we not turn into every other fps please.
4. gorge? model - looked like a fat hog running around.
5. ammocount on lmg model, aliens pulse rifle imo - no need.
I'm disappointed we didn't get to see the leap, gorges bellyslide or DI but it's understandable if they're not finished up enough to show.
That was my favorite part. Gorge was one of my favorite units, glad they're keeping the general feel of it.
Okay let see now....
Small map + Sprinting for marines = Spawn camping at 5 seconds start of round
how charming...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks for sharing your experiences after you have intensively play tested ns2