Stats like TF2 and L4D should be there, but only viewable(from you or any player) if you disconnect from a server first. That way all the e-peenerz can't say I'm the most awesome Commander you nubletz, look at my statz stat, and proceed to be a ###### because of it. My suggestion still allows them, or anyone, to fill their e-peen egoz out of game still, while leaving the ingame gameplay untouched.
<!--quoteo(post=1732346:date=Oct 15 2009, 07:43 PM:name=blackpiranha)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(blackpiranha @ Oct 15 2009, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's essential for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely disagree. Teamwork and cohesion are essential for competitive play. I've never once scurried about and looked at my mates k/d ratios, or any other stats. Playing with the same group of people and learning each others strengths and weaknesses is more important.
<!--quoteo(post=1743042:date=Dec 8 2009, 06:15 PM:name=Leon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leon @ Dec 8 2009, 06:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Completely disagree. Teamwork and cohesion are essential for competitive play. I've never once scurried about and looked at my mates k/d ratios, or any other stats. Playing with the same group of people and learning each others strengths and weaknesses is more important.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh. I like the extra information it provides, but that's it. It's in no way essential.
<!--quoteo(post=1743008:date=Dec 8 2009, 09:39 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 8 2009, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->bit of dramasauce</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there are pros and cons about stats - depends on how they are displayed and how they effect the gameplay. However, you'll want some sort of information about a round in numbers or whatever. I assume most players want to at least monitor their / their team's performance or get rewarded. How this is done is part of the developers. Besides, you cannot tell me stat-tracking is not a useful tool (and i dont mean hanging your e-peenis in the face of all other players by tracking everything). And this is not "something which wasn't there before"
The point: The PSR system in hon is a joke and the best example how not to do it - however if you look at all mentionable competitive games you will see that each has at least Wins:Losses, Kills:Deaths or ladderboards or whatever.
If there won't be any numbers or percentages for orientation you'd be just "one out of many" - so i assume it's an individual thing. Teamplay, for example is hard to rate - you have to watch a team's performance, while wins or kills do have another meaning. Referring to NS, imo stats were never that important and the Res-for-Kills system was ######, but I never felt the scoreboard etc. was ruining something. It's a handy feature - nothing more. Rambos got killed without commander support, flashfades did run into shotguns, no matter how many kills there have been. Teamplay should compensate these 'advantages'.
To come to my conclusion: You need at least some sort of performance display to guarantee for a player's individuality (focus on teamplay/teampoints is another question) - in other news: it's just games...
I'm sorry for the statement that it's essential, it's a factor of a game. But you'll miss it if it it's not there.
No, I can guarantee you I won't. Do you seriously think that? You want to know how I know? Because I never played NS1 with stats either. The server I reg'd on didn't run stats and was never going to. Isn't that the damndest thing. Stats are not and have never been a necessary part of gaming. Many games today don't even have stats, most games used to not have stats. Do you seriously think the 48,000,000 COD4 players are all jockeying for the top spot of shotgun stat guy? No, the stats are there to encourage you to chase carrots and get silly unlocks. This is why people will work to unlock shotgun grips, and then never even use a shotgun. The stats exist to make you want stuff you don't even need.
And the remark about a leaderboard is pedantic at best - even still it's not NS2's job to provide those stats anyway - it'll be tracked on a third party website anyway.
Stats CAN be a useful TOOL for developers for balance, but even then they're not absolute. There's more to balance considerations than simply looking at a pie chart. But these are not the stats we're talking about, or what the original post was even about, and nobody in this entire thread has refuted that. Those stats may as well not even be there as far as a player is concerned. This shouldn't even be a part of this thread.
But I don't know what the rest of that hogwash was supposed to mean. <b>Rewarding</b> individuality is why we need stats? Are you serious? Making players feel like special individual delicate snowflakes? That's incredibly depressing that people need that.
The game should feature some sort of "view stats" option, definately. Basically, people who want stats have them, and people who don't want stats can just ignore them. If done tastefully, I doubt anyone is going to have their fun hindered by some passing numbers and percentages.
And all this talk about showing off stats in-game? Go wave your e-penis stats somewhere they belong, like on your Steam Profile.
<!--quoteo(post=1743058:date=Dec 8 2009, 09:03 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Temphage @ Dec 8 2009, 09:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The stats exist to make you want stuff you don't even need.
Making players feel like special individual delicate snowflakes? That's incredibly depressing that people need that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry You dont NEED to play computer games... We dont NEED art, music or poetry. Its nice to have them though.
Wait... You want the game NOT to make you feel special? You want the game to give you less?
I dont see your rage towards stats and scoreboards.
I think stats are great insofar that leaderboards are not instituted. In NS1 as well as a HL2 mod called Empires, servers instituted stats and all that led to was point whoring from people who would rather be in the top10 for the server than help their team win. I would love to see my accuracy for each weapon, if only to compare against friends and try to improve. I don't, however, need to know my stats compared to other people. That adds an unhealthy dimension of competition, in my opinion, because it creates play that is self-serving instead of team-serving.
An example from my personal experience is playing on WDF (NS1) and continually spawn camping with fade as an entire team of aliens ignore the CC and just mercilessly kill the marines as soon as they spawn.. sometimes for as long as timer allowed. Nearly every game with stats enabled led to one team dragging it out if only to pad their stats a little and push them into the top X %. I know, because I was part of the problem. I will not say that every person becomes self-serving but when the players who actually know what they're doing stop helping the team to stat ######, it affects everyone.
Ready Room GG? Like everybody does it? - if it comes to that point -> spawnkilling - your team lose. If you dont accept it and let them spawnkill you over and over - its not their fault its yours.
If you dont like stats and beeing proud of how well you did, you need a doc.
Self-serving is team-serving. Name just one example in which its not good to give your best and get the highest score! Even if one would just ignore the teamplay and is an crazy rambolike killing god. He helped the team in killing the enemy and keeping attraction on him... because he is a problem for the other team. (As a side note, he needs to be at breakingpoints and important faceoffs(so he needs to be at team important objectives - even more in Natural Selection like in other games like cod6) - because otherwise he wouldn't get those nice stats.)
The point: It is impossible to not contribute to the team, if someone got great stats.
And why shouldnt it be allowed to be happy about your stats? Because it makes you feel sad? - cause you are not able to be as good? Well then practice and try to beat him. Thats how its like in "versus" games. (may it real sports or computer games) If you dont like competition (with its rewards - like nice stats/statistics) you should consider playing singleplayer games.
PS: As a side note: there is talent, and there is practice... but practice may not let you reach the lvl of a talented guy - sorry to tell. (i accepted it - as an exaple i will never be good at classic rts games like C&C)
PPS: not native speaker - sry for messed up gramma or spelling
Edit: I forgot: You can still make your own server and play without stats, and your special friends. (Everything is possible with ns2!)
<!--quoteo(post=1743108:date=Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Koruyo @ Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ready Room GG? Like everybody does it? - if it comes to that point -> spawnkilling - your team lose. If you dont accept it and let them spawnkill you over and over - its not their fault its yours.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So it's my fault that the people on either team are artificially prolonging a game just so they can get more kills? Forgive me, but the primary objective is to destroy the CC or the hives. Secondary to that is the base building and even the killing, to be honest. You can easily kill a server with a few people stat whoring by spawn killing, and it's the people who are being spawn killed who are at fault? Give me a break.
<!--quoteo(post=1743108:date=Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Koruyo @ Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Self-serving is team-serving. Name just one example in which its not good to give your best and get the highest score! Even if one would just ignore the teamplay and is an crazy rambolike killing god. He helped the team in killing the enemy and keeping attraction on him... because he is a problem for the other team. (As a side note, he needs to be at breakingpoints and important faceoffs(so he needs to be at team important objectives - even more in Natural Selection like in other games like cod6) - because otherwise he wouldn't get those nice stats.)
The point: It is impossible to not contribute to the team, if someone got great stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Empires, you can get points for doing things other than killing. So when the stats system was in place on a well-populated server, you would have people going underwater to slowly lose health by drowning and then getting points for healing each other. Doing nothing to help the team, but getting points all the same. Since then they have removed the stats plugin on that server because it caused too many problems, many of which came from their top players. In a recent game, there was a player on the opposing team that went 29-0 just sitting somewhere camping and getting kills. My score was 25-3 and I led our team to victory (it was a capture the flag map). I was being a productive team member and the other player was just going for some kill:death ratio that would disappear the next round (even if it WERE logged in a stats database, his team lost all the same). Simple killing, ESPECIALLY in an RTS hybrid like NS, is often not enough contribution to the team. Sure, you have a high score but your team could have lost horribly and it is often those top players neglecting to actually lead their team in pursuit of more kills/points.
Anyway, I largely think the point is more or less moot. Servers that want stats will have them and servers that don't, won't. I am not even really against stats but you can't say that they don't lead to problems and it's foolish to either blame someone else or assume that everyone will play as usual.
I personally have no problem with stats as long as people can completely opt out of them, temporary stats after a game and scoreboards in-game are fine with me but anything linked to you, and viewable by others that is that is not possible to opt out of is completely retarded. This is coming from someone who is usually one of the people at the top of the stats on any game I play or server I play on. All of the people saying "stop caring" or anyone that says "why do you care so much about stupid numbers?" should heed your own advice. Please tell me why do you need to see these "stupid numbers" or why do you care about there being stats that you can view, if you would stop caring you won't need stats.
Stats hinder my fun because I'm a VERY competitive person and have been since the day I was born, instead of playing what is the most fun at the time, I played what would get me as many many kills as possible while still being somewhat fun so that my stats are better. This can even affect my team, although I care about winning, I would not sacrifice myself or my stats for the greater good of the team most times. Instead of charging into an area where all the action is and face imminent death I will go where I can safely rack up kills. I did not always play like this but most times I would. I will admit most times I played Marines I Rambo'd straight to the hive at the start of the game, but this is not necessarily to stat pad this is where I could best practice roflstomping skulks.
Examples of where it really affects my team are: 1. When as a fade it comes to more safe kills and pressure at marine start or dieing to force a beacon that will save a hive, in which case I would choose the former sometimes because of stats. 2. When as a fade it comes to denying/killing a PG and dieing or allowing it to build/stay up but keeping safe pressure on it till someone else will sacrifice themselves for it, I would usually choose the latter sometimes for the sole reason of stats. 3.When as a marine it comes to killing an onos or fade and dieing or pursuing until I am no longer safe and retreating, I would choose the latter with the primary reason being stats.
These are real examples I myself have done and have seen others do in the name of stat whoring. As someone else stated before I have seen entire alien teams refuse to hit the infantry portals just so they could farm stats. I have even seen stat whoring go as far as people leaving if they are being chased as a fade and are low on energy, JUST FOR STATS.
I'm not the kind of person to rage people on purpose or that truly tries to ruin a game for other people, however with stats I end up ruining other peoples fun while seeking to get the best score I can. Instead of having para vs. knife fights or getting knifed or welded to death I scream, "Not now chief I'm in the *&%#ing zone!" over my mic and continue to pad my stats.
Now you might say well even without global or server stats there are still going to be stat ######s, this is true and I myself, because of my competitive nature, would still sometimes make these decisions, but not even close to the amount of times I do when there are stats. With stats, I'm the kind of person Vanillamarine described that will choose the best killing class rather than the healing, building ,support, etc... classes. Without stats I would be willing to go the healing, building ,support, etc... classes more often. Without stats I would be willing to make decisions to sacrifice myself for the team more often as it would then have zero negative effect on me.
Note: The above examples are of pub nub games not competitive games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would not sacrifice myself or my stats for the greater good of the team most times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never thought there are ppl that needy... - sry. :3
Ok atm playing a lot MW2 - mostly sabotage/ctf and snd... i care a lot about my stats and let others do the job while i try to help them my way -> by fragging as much as possible - "protecting" them (other than the camper guys that sometimes get 20:3 stats(usually not) - i make 60:20 by rushing and farming those guys lets call them "the average cod6 player")... BUT i switch to contribution if! we are behind in captures or the enemy gets our flag/the bomb whatever and in case i get near an objective, of course i take it (knowing it reveals my position and maybe costing me a few frags - who cares)
Where is the benefit in having great stats but losing the game at the end? those ppl must be some kind of campers to have this mindset - i mean campers fear so much of crawling out of their corner because they dont think they are capable of winning the 1:1 situations and so not getting as good k/d ratios as they get by waiting for the noobs running the same spot again and again.
Whats my point? In case some other guys do the healing/building/whatever im happy to live out my nature BUT if not - of course i do the job, and i think 90% of the "stat" gamers (that are good, not living in a dreamland/ or try to exploit) out there do it the same way.
Argh im pushing the thread to much towards offtopic - sry.
Other than dud, i dont think its bad to have stats linked to you (its a big help in finding and sort out good players to recrute or play against) but ya we dont necesserly need it, sure.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So it's my fault that the people on either team are artificially prolonging a game just so they can get more kills?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, of course thats not your fault - thats exploiting/cheating the stat system - usually fast viewable by comparing with real stats by other players... i know this from CoD5 Xp servers. But 100000000000kills 500000deaths and 20wins 5losses... hmm...... if there is a stat tracking system for a game somebody gives a ###### - of course there is more than just kills/death ratio - so you can petty much sort out the exploiters.
PS: i think its getting a bit mixed up, i lost the point... is it now against global stats, stats after a game or what? Because i dont think there will be global stats other than server mods, and temporary stats after a match are pretty much nothing to worry about.
while not joining the debate, I think stats are a good thing - but can be a pain as an administrative thing. I would suggest that UWE leave stats out and just let individual servers do their thing.
If I never have to see another Kill:Death ratio in a supposedly team based game again, I will be very happy. If it is a Death Match game? It better be there, that is kinda the point. So, team based stats for games with team based goals is fine by me. K:D in NS1 just contributed to pro-longed over matched ends aka unnecessary spawn killing without killing the spawn generator and rambos, IMHO. You know what would have been a much better stat? Average distance per second to another player's character on your team to encourage sticking together for the most part.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Here is my take on stat tracking.
In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.
The flipside of the coin, is that some players go about boosting their stats by "exploiting" gameplay mechanics, making the game less fun for others. The term "exploit" doesn't mean any rules or bent or broken. It is simply that the player acts in a way that is detrimental to the gaming community as a whole. Dud provides very good examples of such behaviour, acting for the individual rather than the group. More often than not, in a team-based game, while not necessarily making a team lose, it often lowers their chances of winning. Another earlier example given in this thread is spawn camping. Players spawn camp to boost their stats, undoubtedly making the game less enjoyable for the players being spawn camped. While none of these actions are illegal, it does lower the enjoyment factor of other players. The question arises as to whether the stat boosting player owe it to the other players, to make the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Essentially, why should they play the game as to how other people want them to play it, compromising their own enjoyment of it?
The answer is, there is really no real practical reason for doing so. In the internet, players come and go and it tends to be a very impersonal place. If one does not feel a connection towards other players, there is essentially no reason as to why one should care about other people's enjoyment. This is especially so when the others cannot act in a way to stop you. It would be an entirely different scenario if other players could act against the stat boosting player by for example, votekicking the player off the server, or having an admin do so. Then in that case, the stat boosting player would have to take his or her selfish activities elsewhere, or change his mindset altogether. But I'm not going to consider that option since the point of this entire argument is that other players cannot act.
Appealing to the stat boosting player's conscience and good moral sense might be an option. Telling him that his actions are affecting other players negatively might eventually work out but I think the chances are slim. As I said, the internet is an impersonal place. The player can easily choose to discard the opinions of other players. One argument into saying that these stat tracking players should stop their selfish activities, is that one does not really need to care about the stats. After all, in most cases, having these stats do not unlock anything or give any bonuses. They are simply there to inform. Well, different people enjoy different things. And it is really not to any of us to say how any other person enjoys a certain thing or why they do so. It is just personal preference but obviously stat boosting does link to a sense of achievement and inflating the ego. But if these increased stats are obtained by "exploiting" systems, there is no real merit behind these stats right? True. However, people are great at deluding themselves. Also, while you may know that you are cheating yourself, not every other player knows that and as stated in earlier posts, you can boast your stats to others who don't know how you got it.
Considering these kind of stats seem to have more negative effects than positive effects, I would think that the inclusion of such statistics would be detrimental to team-based games. It is important to note when comparing to games that have this kind of stat tracking and how successful they are, to note how team oriented they are. The less team oriented they are, say in deathmatch games, the less relevant these stats are on how the players affect the enjoyment of the game of others.
Moving onto a different kind of statistic. To avoid confusion let's call the previous stats(Kill/death ratio, etc) stat A and the one I am about to discuss, stat B. Stat B(time played, favourite weapon, favourite class, etc) are less geared towards skill and more focused on play style. Generally, there is no satisfaction to be had when boosting these kind of stats. Either because there is absolutely no skill involved in raising these stats or that it is really hard to care about how these kind of stats and there is no way to measure how these stats of one player are better than the other. I think there is no harm in allowing these kind of stats around. Stat B hardly adds or detracts from the gameplay experience. However, including them would be a nice aesthetic touch to the game.
Finally, touching upon stat C(location of player deaths, most effective weapon, etc). Stat C differs from stat A and stat B in that they track globally while stats A and B are focused on the individual. These kind of stats are very useful as they allow players to know and learn strategies of the game just by looking at them. Stat C would not encourage the kind of negative behaviour found prevalent in stat A since individual actions would only have a miniscule effect on them. While stat C does benefit players, the real benefit goes to developers, as stated in previous posts. Developers can learn from how the players are playing, and what strategies have involved. In doing so, developers can tweak the game to make it better and correct bugs and exploits.
So in deciding on whether stats are good or bad for the game, it is worthwhile to consider which stats are being talked about. In my opinion, stat A has more disadvantages than advantages and should be left out, stat B is good for aesthetic purposes, and stat C is definitely beneficial and should be included.
Addressing some previous posts on "if you don't like stats, just ignore them. there is no need to remove them", I would have to say that such a scenario applies to stat B, but definitely not stat A. For some people, ignoring stat A is an impossibility, due to their competitive nature. I think dud has encapsulated it very well. He does not need to apologise for the way he is, for being competitive is not a bad thing. But once it infringes upon the enjoyment of others, it should be removed. And I have yet to encounter a person that has absolute "need" of statistics of the stat A variety.
<!--quoteo(post=1732270:date=Oct 15 2009, 02:17 PM:name=Hebacheba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hebacheba @ Oct 15 2009, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1732270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to use this post to say to UWE that if you make a stat tracking system, at least make it optional so that a person like me can just have fun with the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only times I have seen "stat tracking" overdone and/or forced on you imo is TF2, any other game it's all been external to the game to look up stats.
Best thing is when I see load screens with stats I just close my eyes and tilt my head back for a few moments until I hear the game kick in.
<!--quoteo(post=1743369:date=Dec 11 2009, 01:49 AM:name=Daworm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daworm @ Dec 11 2009, 01:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only times I have seen "stat tracking" overdone and/or forced on you imo is TF2, any other game it's all been external to the game to look up stats.
Best thing is when I see load screens with stats I just close my eyes and tilt my head back for a few moments until I hear the game kick in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dystopia has a global stats and ranking system tracked across all servers. Its sort of cool to track your weapons and all of that, but initially it led to MAJOR e-peen "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome, especially since your rank was displayed right next to your name in game. Luckily the community has gotten tired of that bit of drama and accepts that THOSE sort of stats are essentially highrank=playtime, so it doesn't really mean anything, but, yeah. Just another example of a game that put stats invasively in moreso than TF2.
Anyways, don't need stats or that sort of intense player tracking imo, but...
Try as much as you want... you are a minority, and the world doesnt cry "push the scorebords off the table". Humans love competiton, but one thing they love more... its showing others that they are best at it. (or at least better than you) Live with it! Or show them otherwise...
You dont grant others that they are better? They dont deserve to be proud of their skills? They slaped their epenis one time too many into your face? It makes you feel sad/bad/angry at them? You yell at ppl that are dominating you, that hes a noob?
- Then say no to scorebords! - Rename lose into "nearly won" or even better... - Just cut losing. Both teams should be winning no matter what.
Ok enough jokin around...
Its not the egomaniac players that have a problem with scores, its you! Most ppl dont give a f*ck... you should too. :)
In no way is taking away informativ scores a solution of this problem, without scores it will be less fun for a lot of ppl. (that will search other games to satisfy their needs) Or why is there a trend for more information, archivements etc? it keeps attraction to players... because we all enjoy beeing better than others. (and it helps finding goodplayers, or improve yourself)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2009
Like a stat-system is an indicator of player skill. The sad part is that most people actually think it is... A good K/D ratio for instance can be achieved by some dreaded form of spawncamping, just one of many things wrong with most systems ;)
I'd be happy with or without one. I like having one in TF2. I don't mind not having them in other games. My biggest question is why does everybody care so much? I don't doubt that you can get situations where stat padding can occur (BF2 much?), all you have to do is play on a well admined server and people will get kicked/banned quickly enough. I like a bit of friendly rivalry between my group of friends in games, anyone else’s stats I couldn't care less about so I don't see what real problems they cause. I can't think of any game where I've ever looked up a players stats that wasn't one of my mates, so chances are only your friends will ever look at them.
In TF2 I'd even argue it's raised my enjoyment of the game, as I've started playing other classes than my usual heavy or medic as it shows me on login how little I've played the others.
There are pros and cons to adding stats tracking or leaving it out, but I think a lot of the cons can be overcome with a good system from UWE. If we're going down the Steam route wouldn't it be possible to only let people on your friends list access your stats?
I know on the first posts, there were some confusion on which stats we are talking about, so I assume it's something stats like "global" K:D ratio or stuff on a leaderboard or ranking because otherwise there would not be a reason to "fear" such an addition. I mean if it were just stats to track someone's hit rate (or accuracy), I don't think people would have a problem with it so I assume the fear is with stats displayed on a "global leaderboard" or "global ranking" or whatever.
IMO the problem with games with "global stat tracking" are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stat_padding" target="_blank">stat padders</a>.
It diminishes the fun of a game when people just worry about stats all the time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like a stat-system is an indicator of player skill. The sad part is that most people actually think it is... A good K/D ratio for instance can be achieved by some dreaded form of spawncamping, just one of many things wrong with most systems ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Here's how I see it: there's a way to get players to know about how "good you are", that's continue to play good in a specific community or game server then get known amongst the players.
Stats aren't too reliable for the purposes of determining skill but actually playing good is a good is a good way of determining skill.
Once you play long enough on the server, people will know you as that good player.
Anyway, that's assuming we're talking about global leaderboards and rankings. Stats to just simply determine your hit rate or whatever (as long as it doesn't cause "stat padding") is fine.
@ Petco - I agree completely. Leader boards for a game like NS2 will probably do far more harm than good, being able to track your personal stats I don't see as being much of a problem as long as you either can't access other peoples by default or it's an invite system / friends list type thing.
Comments
/thread.
Completely disagree. Teamwork and cohesion are essential for competitive play. I've never once scurried about and looked at my mates k/d ratios, or any other stats. Playing with the same group of people and learning each others strengths and weaknesses is more important.
Yeh. I like the extra information it provides, but that's it. It's in no way essential.
there are pros and cons about stats - depends on how they are displayed and how they effect the gameplay. However, you'll want some sort of information about a round in numbers or whatever. I assume most players want to at least monitor their / their team's performance or get rewarded. How this is done is part of the developers. Besides, you cannot tell me stat-tracking is not a useful tool (and i dont mean hanging your e-peenis in the face of all other players by tracking everything). And this is not "something which wasn't there before"
The point: The PSR system in hon is a joke and the best example how not to do it - however if you look at all mentionable competitive games you will see that each has at least Wins:Losses, Kills:Deaths or ladderboards or whatever.
If there won't be any numbers or percentages for orientation you'd be just "one out of many" - so i assume it's an individual thing. Teamplay, for example is hard to rate - you have to watch a team's performance, while wins or kills do have another meaning. Referring to NS, imo stats were never that important and the Res-for-Kills system was ######, but I never felt the scoreboard etc. was ruining something. It's a handy feature - nothing more. Rambos got killed without commander support, flashfades did run into shotguns, no matter how many kills there have been. Teamplay should compensate these 'advantages'.
To come to my conclusion: You need at least some sort of performance display to guarantee for a player's individuality (focus on teamplay/teampoints is another question) - in other news: it's just games...
I'm sorry for the statement that it's essential, it's a factor of a game. But you'll miss it if it it's not there.
And the remark about a leaderboard is pedantic at best - even still it's not NS2's job to provide those stats anyway - it'll be tracked on a third party website anyway.
Stats CAN be a useful TOOL for developers for balance, but even then they're not absolute. There's more to balance considerations than simply looking at a pie chart. But these are not the stats we're talking about, or what the original post was even about, and nobody in this entire thread has refuted that. Those stats may as well not even be there as far as a player is concerned. This shouldn't even be a part of this thread.
But I don't know what the rest of that hogwash was supposed to mean. <b>Rewarding</b> individuality is why we need stats? Are you serious? Making players feel like special individual delicate snowflakes? That's incredibly depressing that people need that.
And all this talk about showing off stats in-game? Go wave your e-penis stats somewhere they belong, like on your Steam Profile.
Making players feel like special individual delicate snowflakes? That's incredibly depressing that people need that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry
You dont NEED to play computer games...
We dont NEED art, music or poetry.
Its nice to have them though.
Wait...
You want the game NOT to make you feel special?
You want the game to give you less?
I dont see your rage towards stats and scoreboards.
Its simple dont type /rank and dont press tab.
An example from my personal experience is playing on WDF (NS1) and continually spawn camping with fade as an entire team of aliens ignore the CC and just mercilessly kill the marines as soon as they spawn.. sometimes for as long as timer allowed. Nearly every game with stats enabled led to one team dragging it out if only to pad their stats a little and push them into the top X %. I know, because I was part of the problem. I will not say that every person becomes self-serving but when the players who actually know what they're doing stop helping the team to stat ######, it affects everyone.
If you dont like stats and beeing proud of how well you did, you need a doc.
Self-serving is team-serving. Name just one example in which its not good to give your best and get the highest score!
Even if one would just ignore the teamplay and is an crazy rambolike killing god. He helped the team in killing the enemy and keeping attraction on him... because he is a problem for the other team. (As a side note, he needs to be at breakingpoints and important faceoffs(so he needs to be at team important objectives - even more in Natural Selection like in other games like cod6) - because otherwise he wouldn't get those nice stats.)
The point: It is impossible to not contribute to the team, if someone got great stats.
And why shouldnt it be allowed to be happy about your stats? Because it makes you feel sad? - cause you are not able to be as good? Well then practice and try to beat him. Thats how its like in "versus" games. (may it real sports or computer games)
If you dont like competition (with its rewards - like nice stats/statistics) you should consider playing singleplayer games.
PS: As a side note: there is talent, and there is practice... but practice may not let you reach the lvl of a talented guy - sorry to tell. (i accepted it - as an exaple i will never be good at classic rts games like C&C)
PPS: not native speaker - sry for messed up gramma or spelling
Edit: I forgot: You can still make your own server and play without stats, and your special friends. (Everything is possible with ns2!)
So it's my fault that the people on either team are artificially prolonging a game just so they can get more kills? Forgive me, but the primary objective is to destroy the CC or the hives. Secondary to that is the base building and even the killing, to be honest. You can easily kill a server with a few people stat whoring by spawn killing, and it's the people who are being spawn killed who are at fault? Give me a break.
<!--quoteo(post=1743108:date=Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Koruyo @ Dec 8 2009, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Self-serving is team-serving. Name just one example in which its not good to give your best and get the highest score!
Even if one would just ignore the teamplay and is an crazy rambolike killing god. He helped the team in killing the enemy and keeping attraction on him... because he is a problem for the other team. (As a side note, he needs to be at breakingpoints and important faceoffs(so he needs to be at team important objectives - even more in Natural Selection like in other games like cod6) - because otherwise he wouldn't get those nice stats.)
The point: It is impossible to not contribute to the team, if someone got great stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In Empires, you can get points for doing things other than killing. So when the stats system was in place on a well-populated server, you would have people going underwater to slowly lose health by drowning and then getting points for healing each other. Doing nothing to help the team, but getting points all the same. Since then they have removed the stats plugin on that server because it caused too many problems, many of which came from their top players. In a recent game, there was a player on the opposing team that went 29-0 just sitting somewhere camping and getting kills. My score was 25-3 and I led our team to victory (it was a capture the flag map). I was being a productive team member and the other player was just going for some kill:death ratio that would disappear the next round (even if it WERE logged in a stats database, his team lost all the same). Simple killing, ESPECIALLY in an RTS hybrid like NS, is often not enough contribution to the team. Sure, you have a high score but your team could have lost horribly and it is often those top players neglecting to actually lead their team in pursuit of more kills/points.
Anyway, I largely think the point is more or less moot. Servers that want stats will have them and servers that don't, won't. I am not even really against stats but you can't say that they don't lead to problems and it's foolish to either blame someone else or assume that everyone will play as usual.
Stats hinder my fun because I'm a VERY competitive person and have been since the day I was born, instead of playing what is the most fun at the time, I played what would get me as many many kills as possible while still being somewhat fun so that my stats are better. This can even affect my team, although I care about winning, I would not sacrifice myself or my stats for the greater good of the team most times. Instead of charging into an area where all the action is and face imminent death I will go where I can safely rack up kills. I did not always play like this but most times I would. I will admit most times I played Marines I Rambo'd straight to the hive at the start of the game, but this is not necessarily to stat pad this is where I could best practice roflstomping skulks.
Examples of where it really affects my team are:
1. When as a fade it comes to more safe kills and pressure at marine start or dieing to force a beacon that will save a hive, in which case I would choose the former sometimes because of stats.
2. When as a fade it comes to denying/killing a PG and dieing or allowing it to build/stay up but keeping safe pressure on it till someone else will sacrifice themselves for it, I would usually choose the latter sometimes for the sole reason of stats.
3.When as a marine it comes to killing an onos or fade and dieing or pursuing until I am no longer safe and retreating, I would choose the latter with the primary reason being stats.
These are real examples I myself have done and have seen others do in the name of stat whoring. As someone else stated before I have seen entire alien teams refuse to hit the infantry portals just so they could farm stats. I have even seen stat whoring go as far as people leaving if they are being chased as a fade and are low on energy, JUST FOR STATS.
I'm not the kind of person to rage people on purpose or that truly tries to ruin a game for other people, however with stats I end up ruining other peoples fun while seeking to get the best score I can. Instead of having para vs. knife fights or getting knifed or welded to death I scream, "Not now chief I'm in the *&%#ing zone!" over my mic and continue to pad my stats.
Now you might say well even without global or server stats there are still going to be stat ######s, this is true and I myself, because of my competitive nature, would still sometimes make these decisions, but not even close to the amount of times I do when there are stats. With stats, I'm the kind of person Vanillamarine described that will choose the best killing class rather than the healing, building ,support, etc... classes. Without stats I would be willing to go the healing, building ,support, etc... classes more often. Without stats I would be willing to make decisions to sacrifice myself for the team more often as it would then have zero negative effect on me.
Note: The above examples are of pub nub games not competitive games.
I never thought there are ppl that needy... - sry. :3
Ok atm playing a lot MW2 - mostly sabotage/ctf and snd... i care a lot about my stats and let others do the job while i try to help them my way -> by fragging as much as possible - "protecting" them (other than the camper guys that sometimes get 20:3 stats(usually not) - i make 60:20 by rushing and farming those guys lets call them "the average cod6 player")... BUT i switch to contribution if! we are behind in captures or the enemy gets our flag/the bomb whatever and in case i get near an objective, of course i take it (knowing it reveals my position and maybe costing me a few frags - who cares)
Where is the benefit in having great stats but losing the game at the end? those ppl must be some kind of campers to have this mindset - i mean campers fear so much of crawling out of their corner because they dont think they are capable of winning the 1:1 situations and so not getting as good k/d ratios as they get by waiting for the noobs running the same spot again and again.
Whats my point? In case some other guys do the healing/building/whatever im happy to live out my nature BUT if not - of course i do the job, and i think 90% of the "stat" gamers (that are good, not living in a dreamland/ or try to exploit) out there do it the same way.
Argh im pushing the thread to much towards offtopic - sry.
Other than dud, i dont think its bad to have stats linked to you (its a big help in finding and sort out good players to recrute or play against) but ya we dont necesserly need it, sure.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So it's my fault that the people on either team are artificially prolonging a game just so they can get more kills?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, of course thats not your fault - thats exploiting/cheating the stat system - usually fast viewable by comparing with real stats by other players... i know this from CoD5 Xp servers. But 100000000000kills 500000deaths and 20wins 5losses... hmm...... if there is a stat tracking system for a game somebody gives a ###### - of course there is more than just kills/death ratio - so you can petty much sort out the exploiters.
PS: i think its getting a bit mixed up, i lost the point... is it now against global stats, stats after a game or what? Because i dont think there will be global stats other than server mods, and temporary stats after a match are pretty much nothing to worry about.
I really hope we get per-bullet tracking just so long as you get to meet with your fear head on.
In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.
The flipside of the coin, is that some players go about boosting their stats by "exploiting" gameplay mechanics, making the game less fun for others. The term "exploit" doesn't mean any rules or bent or broken. It is simply that the player acts in a way that is detrimental to the gaming community as a whole. Dud provides very good examples of such behaviour, acting for the individual rather than the group. More often than not, in a team-based game, while not necessarily making a team lose, it often lowers their chances of winning. Another earlier example given in this thread is spawn camping. Players spawn camp to boost their stats, undoubtedly making the game less enjoyable for the players being spawn camped. While none of these actions are illegal, it does lower the enjoyment factor of other players. The question arises as to whether the stat boosting player owe it to the other players, to make the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Essentially, why should they play the game as to how other people want them to play it, compromising their own enjoyment of it?
The answer is, there is really no real practical reason for doing so. In the internet, players come and go and it tends to be a very impersonal place. If one does not feel a connection towards other players, there is essentially no reason as to why one should care about other people's enjoyment. This is especially so when the others cannot act in a way to stop you. It would be an entirely different scenario if other players could act against the stat boosting player by for example, votekicking the player off the server, or having an admin do so. Then in that case, the stat boosting player would have to take his or her selfish activities elsewhere, or change his mindset altogether. But I'm not going to consider that option since the point of this entire argument is that other players cannot act.
Appealing to the stat boosting player's conscience and good moral sense might be an option. Telling him that his actions are affecting other players negatively might eventually work out but I think the chances are slim. As I said, the internet is an impersonal place. The player can easily choose to discard the opinions of other players. One argument into saying that these stat tracking players should stop their selfish activities, is that one does not really need to care about the stats. After all, in most cases, having these stats do not unlock anything or give any bonuses. They are simply there to inform. Well, different people enjoy different things. And it is really not to any of us to say how any other person enjoys a certain thing or why they do so. It is just personal preference but obviously stat boosting does link to a sense of achievement and inflating the ego. But if these increased stats are obtained by "exploiting" systems, there is no real merit behind these stats right? True. However, people are great at deluding themselves. Also, while you may know that you are cheating yourself, not every other player knows that and as stated in earlier posts, you can boast your stats to others who don't know how you got it.
Considering these kind of stats seem to have more negative effects than positive effects, I would think that the inclusion of such statistics would be detrimental to team-based games. It is important to note when comparing to games that have this kind of stat tracking and how successful they are, to note how team oriented they are. The less team oriented they are, say in deathmatch games, the less relevant these stats are on how the players affect the enjoyment of the game of others.
Moving onto a different kind of statistic. To avoid confusion let's call the previous stats(Kill/death ratio, etc) stat A and the one I am about to discuss, stat B. Stat B(time played, favourite weapon, favourite class, etc) are less geared towards skill and more focused on play style. Generally, there is no satisfaction to be had when boosting these kind of stats. Either because there is absolutely no skill involved in raising these stats or that it is really hard to care about how these kind of stats and there is no way to measure how these stats of one player are better than the other. I think there is no harm in allowing these kind of stats around. Stat B hardly adds or detracts from the gameplay experience. However, including them would be a nice aesthetic touch to the game.
Finally, touching upon stat C(location of player deaths, most effective weapon, etc). Stat C differs from stat A and stat B in that they track globally while stats A and B are focused on the individual. These kind of stats are very useful as they allow players to know and learn strategies of the game just by looking at them. Stat C would not encourage the kind of negative behaviour found prevalent in stat A since individual actions would only have a miniscule effect on them. While stat C does benefit players, the real benefit goes to developers, as stated in previous posts. Developers can learn from how the players are playing, and what strategies have involved. In doing so, developers can tweak the game to make it better and correct bugs and exploits.
So in deciding on whether stats are good or bad for the game, it is worthwhile to consider which stats are being talked about. In my opinion, stat A has more disadvantages than advantages and should be left out, stat B is good for aesthetic purposes, and stat C is definitely beneficial and should be included.
Addressing some previous posts on "if you don't like stats, just ignore them. there is no need to remove them", I would have to say that such a scenario applies to stat B, but definitely not stat A. For some people, ignoring stat A is an impossibility, due to their competitive nature. I think dud has encapsulated it very well. He does not need to apologise for the way he is, for being competitive is not a bad thing. But once it infringes upon the enjoyment of others, it should be removed. And I have yet to encounter a person that has absolute "need" of statistics of the stat A variety.
The only times I have seen "stat tracking" overdone and/or forced on you imo is TF2, any other game it's all been external to the game to look up stats.
Best thing is when I see load screens with stats I just close my eyes and tilt my head back for a few moments until I hear the game kick in.
Best thing is when I see load screens with stats I just close my eyes and tilt my head back for a few moments until I hear the game kick in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dystopia has a global stats and ranking system tracked across all servers. Its sort of cool to track your weapons and all of that, but initially it led to MAJOR e-peen "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome, especially since your rank was displayed right next to your name in game. Luckily the community has gotten tired of that bit of drama and accepts that THOSE sort of stats are essentially highrank=playtime, so it doesn't really mean anything, but, yeah. Just another example of a game that put stats invasively in moreso than TF2.
Anyways, don't need stats or that sort of intense player tracking imo, but...
Humans love competiton, but one thing they love more... its showing others that they are best at it. (or at least better than you)
Live with it! Or show them otherwise...
You dont grant others that they are better?
They dont deserve to be proud of their skills?
They slaped their epenis one time too many into your face?
It makes you feel sad/bad/angry at them?
You yell at ppl that are dominating you, that hes a noob?
- Then say no to scorebords!
- Rename lose into "nearly won"
or even better...
- Just cut losing. Both teams should be winning no matter what.
Ok enough jokin around...
Its not the egomaniac players that have a problem with scores, its you!
Most ppl dont give a f*ck... you should too. :)
In no way is taking away informativ scores a solution of this problem, without scores it will be less fun for a lot of ppl. (that will search other games to satisfy their needs)
Or why is there a trend for more information, archivements etc? it keeps attraction to players... because we all enjoy beeing better than others. (and it helps finding goodplayers, or improve yourself)
In TF2 I'd even argue it's raised my enjoyment of the game, as I've started playing other classes than my usual heavy or medic as it shows me on login how little I've played the others.
There are pros and cons to adding stats tracking or leaving it out, but I think a lot of the cons can be overcome with a good system from UWE. If we're going down the Steam route wouldn't it be possible to only let people on your friends list access your stats?
IMO the problem with games with "global stat tracking" are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stat_padding" target="_blank">stat padders</a>.
It diminishes the fun of a game when people just worry about stats all the time.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like a stat-system is an indicator of player skill. The sad part is that most people actually think it is... A good K/D ratio for instance can be achieved by some dreaded form of spawncamping, just one of many things wrong with most systems ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
Here's how I see it: there's a way to get players to know about how "good you are", that's continue to play good in a specific community or game server then get known amongst the players.
Stats aren't too reliable for the purposes of determining skill but actually playing good is a good is a good way of determining skill.
Once you play long enough on the server, people will know you as that good player.
Anyway, that's assuming we're talking about global leaderboards and rankings. Stats to just simply determine your hit rate or whatever (as long as it doesn't cause "stat padding") is fine.
I think the paranoia factor here is that stats seem like they make the game less about fun and more about e-peen and competition. Would that be right?