<!--quoteo(post=1743441:date=Dec 11 2009, 11:25 AM:name=Rhodri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rhodri @ Dec 11 2009, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->@ Petco - I agree completely. Leader boards for a game like NS2 will probably do far more harm than good, being able to track your personal stats I don't see as being much of a problem as long as you either can't access other peoples by default or it's an invite system / friends list type thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->+1 Agreed. I don't like leader boards, but I like my personal stats(and sharing then only with friends).
Also, a lot can be done with imaginative non-public stat tracking and positive achievements. Like medic achievements in TF2 encouraging people to play medics more often (same with other less popular classes). Almost in NS1/NS2, It would be interesting to see stats for...
-how many times you've dropped a 2nd hive, 3rd hive, total hive drops. -built chambers as gorge, and RT's -time spent building RT's as marines (and other buildings) -Times you've killed a marine that was attacking one your gorges -RT's destroyed as skulk/fade/onos/gorge
...then from these you can get achievements, SUCH AS... "Skulk of Attrition" -destroy 10 RT's as skulk in one game "Res Chomper!"- destroy X lifetime RT's. "Res Denied!"- destroy Y lifetime RT's before they pay for themselves (within 60 seconds in NS1). "Weldbot!" - Weld X amount of armor in total.
Some servers in NS1 already have welding time stats. Good, but problem is sometimes people go overboard and just try and weld the whole game when sometimes they could do a better job doing something else. Problem comes from everyone being able to see that player's name at the end of the round, hence why some player can blow a round being semi-useless only to have their name appear at the end.
<!--quoteo(post=1743118:date=Dec 9 2009, 02:02 AM:name=dud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dud @ Dec 9 2009, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743118"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Examples of where it really affects my team are: 1. When as a fade it comes to more safe kills and pressure at marine start or dieing to force a beacon that will save a hive, in which case I would choose the former sometimes because of stats. 2. When as a fade it comes to denying/killing a PG and dieing or allowing it to build/stay up but keeping safe pressure on it till someone else will sacrifice themselves for it, I would usually choose the latter sometimes for the sole reason of stats. 3.When as a marine it comes to killing an onos or fade and dieing or pursuing until I am no longer safe and retreating, I would choose the latter with the primary reason being stats.
These are real examples I myself have done and have seen others do in the name of stat whoring. As someone else stated before I have seen entire alien teams refuse to hit the infantry portals just so they could farm stats. I have even seen stat whoring go as far as people leaving if they are being chased as a fade and are low on energy, JUST FOR STATS. ... Without stats I would be willing to go the healing, building ,support, etc... classes more often. Without stats I would be willing to make decisions to sacrifice myself for the team more often as it would then have zero negative effect on me.
Note: The above examples are of pub nub games not competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Best first post. ever. I think we all are in the same boat to varying degrees, whether we choose to admit it or not.
NS at it's core is primarily an action FPS game. As such, "killing stuff" is a core skill, and any measure that even remotely expresses this will hold sway over players. The sanctimonious prigs that go around preaching that "It's a team game, kills don't matter - I play to win" are dangerously misinformed and sometimes I wonder if they even believe the platitudes spewing from their mouth. It's as irking the obnoxiously trite phrases you hear tossed about like verbal farts in the wind "___ doesn't matter, it's what's inside you that counts".
The naked truth is that, kills DO matter (even if not to you) because vanity exists in almost everyone, and when forced out into the spotlight (i.e. global rankings) it can be anywhere from a nagging voice to an uncontrollable monster. Even the "modest" few who go out of their way to <u>always</u> put the team ahead of their personal gain will invariably be affected when one of the many players who do not impacts their ability to win. (obviously though, none of this applies in a competitive scenario where individual vanity is much more costly).
My standpoint on the matter is not obvious from the above. I in fact loath obvious signs of hand-holding, which means if pertinent information (such as kills and deaths) are deliberately removed from the scoreboard in an attempt to unnaturally force a certain behaviour, I perceive it as an insult to the player. On the other hand, creating rankings and stats solely to entice players to "grind" them is equally as loath-worthy and for this I've recently come to despise the word "achievement". So in summary, useful information such as kills, deaths, teampoints, etc. should be shown where and when they apply, and I firmly believe this is in -game for the duration of the match and not permanently in a database accessible publicly via browser.
<!--quoteo(post=1743181:date=Dec 10 2009, 05:35 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Dec 10 2009, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743181"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add stat tracking, but make the data private. That way it can help devs and mappers without hindering desired gameplay. Problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Steamworks has this
It would be interesting to have, like, 'heatmaps' of each map; so you could see where firefights take place most often, where people die/get ambushed, that sort of thing. Could help with making the flow of a map more interesting, and balance too.
I don't know what goes on in your head, but I can tell you what goes on in mine. I do not find achievements or stats to be pleasurable, to such an extent where I cannot fathom the type of mind that does. I simply don't understand and I'm fairly leery of the kind of person who is driven through some bizarre urge to make his ambiguous numbers bigger than someone else's ambiguous numbers. And then one day down the line, they stop caring about those ambiguous numbers and chase an entirely new set of them. It's *alien* to me. Getting a gold star <b>YAY 4 YUO</b> 'achievement' isn't motivating, it's almost <i>embarrassing</i>. It's the same demented mentality that 'motivates' people to keep spending money in World of Warcraft, chasing the endless stream of carrots. Then when you get your 'best' pile of worthless digital gear, Blizzard makes a new set for you to chase.
My feedback loop is based on my own impression of play. If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game? If you do, that's kinda sad.
So no. I don't want public stats, achievements, or any kind of in-game anything to reflect on any sort of this 'meta' BS that's become so popular these days. I may not understand WHY people are motivated by these (My best guess is it's just the nerd equivalent of dogs humping each other to establish dominance) but I know that if even a handful of people are playing to chase stats and achievements, it's too many. As Heculablubawhatever said, maybe it IS that you are all just trying your hardest to make your stats as impressive as possible (and maybe don't even know why - nobody else will EVER care about your dumb stats). This may not be far fetched. If the 'meta' experience is subtly bringing down your game experience like that, you'd be better off without the stats. And I doubt the number of people who legitimately have their game experience ENHANCED by the meta experience is a significant number.
I once read an article about social networking that explained why it's so popular and I think the mental mind-**** that motivates people on Twitter may be the same that motivates them for achievements. Basically, Twitter, Facebook, etc. are not there to actually fill a void in anyone's lives. They are there to fill the void they create themselves. Many people are addicted to Twitter and cannot go a day without sharing their idiotic lives with other people doing the same. The gratification isn't that you're doing something you've always needed to do - it's that "I'm a Twit, so therefore I must Tweet", or "all my friends are always on Facebook, so I have to be too!" It's almost analogous to a drug addiction. You only start jonesing for heroin AFTER you had your first hit.
The answer to meta-game features [and social networking] like achievements is simple - how did you live your life before achievements and stats? Did you find games less enjoyable? No, you didn't. You never knew they existed and it was impossible for you to care about them. The concept of going back to a life free of these isn't a difficult one, and therefore the only 'impact' the lack of these features could possibly have would be withdrawal symptoms. You *need* your stats because... you NEED THEM. Just a little bit, just my K:D! Please!
Let it go people. Play the game because the game is fun, not because a compulsive obsession with a web page's numbers is fun.
Incredible post my man. Couldn't have put it better myself. Remember the good ol' games, where all this obsesssion over achievements and stats weren't even invented!
I don't know what goes on in your head, but I can tell you what goes on in mine. I do not find achievements or stats to be pleasurable, to such an extent where I cannot fathom the type of mind that does. I simply don't understand and I'm fairly leery of the kind of person who is driven through some bizarre urge to make his ambiguous numbers bigger than someone else's ambiguous numbers. And then one day down the line, they stop caring about those ambiguous numbers and chase an entirely new set of them. It's *alien* to me. Getting a gold star <b>YAY 4 YUO</b> 'achievement' isn't motivating, it's almost <i>embarrassing</i>. It's the same demented mentality that 'motivates' people to keep spending money in World of Warcraft, chasing the endless stream of carrots. Then when you get your 'best' pile of worthless digital gear, Blizzard makes a new set for you to chase.
My feedback loop is based on my own impression of play. If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game? If you do, that's kinda sad.
So no. I don't want public stats, achievements, or any kind of in-game anything to reflect on any sort of this 'meta' BS that's become so popular these days. I may not understand WHY people are motivated by these (My best guess is it's just the nerd equivalent of dogs humping each other to establish dominance) but I know that if even a handful of people are playing to chase stats and achievements, it's too many. As Heculablubawhatever said, maybe it IS that you are all just trying your hardest to make your stats as impressive as possible (and maybe don't even know why - nobody else will EVER care about your dumb stats). This may not be far fetched. If the 'meta' experience is subtly bringing down your game experience like that, you'd be better off without the stats. And I doubt the number of people who legitimately have their game experience ENHANCED by the meta experience is a significant number.
I once read an article about social networking that explained why it's so popular and I think the mental mind-**** that motivates people on Twitter may be the same that motivates them for achievements. Basically, Twitter, Facebook, etc. are not there to actually fill a void in anyone's lives. They are there to fill the void they create themselves. Many people are addicted to Twitter and cannot go a day without sharing their idiotic lives with other people doing the same. The gratification isn't that you're doing something you've always needed to do - it's that "I'm a Twit, so therefore I must Tweet", or "all my friends are always on Facebook, so I have to be too!" It's almost analogous to a drug addiction. You only start jonesing for heroin AFTER you had your first hit.
The answer to meta-game features [and social networking] like achievements is simple - how did you live your life before achievements and stats? Did you find games less enjoyable? No, you didn't. You never knew they existed and it was impossible for you to care about them. The concept of going back to a life free of these isn't a difficult one, and therefore the only 'impact' the lack of these features could possibly have would be withdrawal symptoms. You *need* your stats because... you NEED THEM. Just a little bit, just my K:D! Please!
Let it go people. Play the game because the game is fun, not because a compulsive obsession with a web page's numbers is fun.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOL</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have no argument outside of personal preference. My preference is the opposite. Dis-inclusion of statistics can and have ruined my fun in games. Worse yet, statistics systems that are overly simple and not effective or relevant to gameplay.
I really would like to have stats to the depth of per bullet fired, there are some very interesting things it allows for. I can evaluate my play and identify area's of weakness vs other players quickly and easily and strategize methods of improving. I LOATHE trial and error, I have a tendency to quit anything I'm teaching myself if it isn't responsive enough to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong and why it is wrong. Statistics systems, if robust enough, help with that IMMENSELY.
I need statistics, because it's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and it's not fun if it's frustrating to figure out and nonresponsive. Statistics tell me how I'm playing, and I can use that information to evolve and expand, and that entire process is what makes gameplay fun.
If you don't like stats, and don't want to look at the stat keeping interfaces, stats can still be shuffled to the side, put into a web database that has optional access, or hidden in menus accessed in the configuration and setup screens of the game. If you want to argue that you should be able to play the game without stats being shoved in your face by the ingame interface, I'll support you on that, there's a time and a place, and while I'm focusing on shooting things is not a good time and place to try to distract me. If you're going to continue arguing for complete removal of any statistics system, back it off, time to live and let live, I don't want to play your type of game, and you have no right to tell me the way I'm supposed to play or the way I'm supposed to have fun.
First, sometime, you just want to have fun, experiment thing, with friend, and you don't want that your experiment and fun crap your stats and your chance to enter a good party on NS2 league.
Second : It depends what you track : for example in many games, once the "kill" numbers (frags) are counted, people don't even concern for the general strategy or winning the round, they just concern about themselves and their kills number. such a behavior can kill a game.
Even if you make a tracking more complete than just "kill" , it can't cover all the possibility of a strategy. For example, if the gorge heal is less rewarded than the skulks kills, no one will go gorge. it's just an example but there will always be situation where the general strategy and teamplay to win will differe with personnal interest for stats.
Player A - "Hey I've been playing for so many months and I've noticed that the lerk spike blast pattern is too wide / chaotic / whatever making it almost too hard to hit marines."
Player B - "LOL I'VE BEEN PLAYING FOR SO MANY MONTHS + 1 AND HAVE 75% ACCURACY WITH SPIKES AND A K/D RATIO OF 3.1/1, I SEE YOU HAVE 22% ACCURACY AND 0.9/1. IVE BEEN PLAYING LONGER SO STFU AND L2P NOOB."
I say if people want stats, they can squander their own time making a server script for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1743360:date=Dec 11 2009, 01:22 AM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Dec 11 2009, 01:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1743360"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:1--><span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Here is my take on stat tracking.
In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.
The flipside of the coin, is that some players go about boosting their stats by "exploiting" gameplay mechanics, making the game less fun for others. The term "exploit" doesn't mean any rules or bent or broken. It is simply that the player acts in a way that is detrimental to the gaming community as a whole. Dud provides very good examples of such behaviour, acting for the individual rather than the group. More often than not, in a team-based game, while not necessarily making a team lose, it often lowers their chances of winning. Another earlier example given in this thread is spawn camping. Players spawn camp to boost their stats, undoubtedly making the game less enjoyable for the players being spawn camped. While none of these actions are illegal, it does lower the enjoyment factor of other players. The question arises as to whether the stat boosting player owe it to the other players, to make the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Essentially, why should they play the game as to how other people want them to play it, compromising their own enjoyment of it?
The answer is, there is really no real practical reason for doing so. In the internet, players come and go and it tends to be a very impersonal place. If one does not feel a connection towards other players, there is essentially no reason as to why one should care about other people's enjoyment. This is especially so when the others cannot act in a way to stop you. It would be an entirely different scenario if other players could act against the stat boosting player by for example, votekicking the player off the server, or having an admin do so. Then in that case, the stat boosting player would have to take his or her selfish activities elsewhere, or change his mindset altogether. But I'm not going to consider that option since the point of this entire argument is that other players cannot act.
Appealing to the stat boosting player's conscience and good moral sense might be an option. Telling him that his actions are affecting other players negatively might eventually work out but I think the chances are slim. As I said, the internet is an impersonal place. The player can easily choose to discard the opinions of other players. One argument into saying that these stat tracking players should stop their selfish activities, is that one does not really need to care about the stats. After all, in most cases, having these stats do not unlock anything or give any bonuses. They are simply there to inform. Well, different people enjoy different things. And it is really not to any of us to say how any other person enjoys a certain thing or why they do so. It is just personal preference but obviously stat boosting does link to a sense of achievement and inflating the ego. But if these increased stats are obtained by "exploiting" systems, there is no real merit behind these stats right? True. However, people are great at deluding themselves. Also, while you may know that you are cheating yourself, not every other player knows that and as stated in earlier posts, you can boast your stats to others who don't know how you got it.
Considering these kind of stats seem to have more negative effects than positive effects, I would think that the inclusion of such statistics would be detrimental to team-based games. It is important to note when comparing to games that have this kind of stat tracking and how successful they are, to note how team oriented they are. The less team oriented they are, say in deathmatch games, the less relevant these stats are on how the players affect the enjoyment of the game of others.
Moving onto a different kind of statistic. To avoid confusion let's call the previous stats(Kill/death ratio, etc) stat A and the one I am about to discuss, stat B. Stat B(time played, favourite weapon, favourite class, etc) are less geared towards skill and more focused on play style. Generally, there is no satisfaction to be had when boosting these kind of stats. Either because there is absolutely no skill involved in raising these stats or that it is really hard to care about how these kind of stats and there is no way to measure how these stats of one player are better than the other. I think there is no harm in allowing these kind of stats around. Stat B hardly adds or detracts from the gameplay experience. However, including them would be a nice aesthetic touch to the game.
Finally, touching upon stat C(location of player deaths, most effective weapon, etc). Stat C differs from stat A and stat B in that they track globally while stats A and B are focused on the individual. These kind of stats are very useful as they allow players to know and learn strategies of the game just by looking at them. Stat C would not encourage the kind of negative behaviour found prevalent in stat A since individual actions would only have a miniscule effect on them. While stat C does benefit players, the real benefit goes to developers, as stated in previous posts. Developers can learn from how the players are playing, and what strategies have involved. In doing so, developers can tweak the game to make it better and correct bugs and exploits.
So in deciding on whether stats are good or bad for the game, it is worthwhile to consider which stats are being talked about. In my opinion, stat A has more disadvantages than advantages and should be left out, stat B is good for aesthetic purposes, and stat C is definitely beneficial and should be included.
Addressing some previous posts on "if you don't like stats, just ignore them. there is no need to remove them", I would have to say that such a scenario applies to stat B, but definitely not stat A. For some people, ignoring stat A is an impossibility, due to their competitive nature. I think dud has encapsulated it very well. He does not need to apologise for the way he is, for being competitive is not a bad thing. But once it infringes upon the enjoyment of others, it should be removed. And I have yet to encounter a person that has absolute "need" of statistics of the stat A variety.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting for great justice. Though I want to mention something you said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're painting a pretty rosy picture here. As I mentioned in my own beefy post:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of the people who do want stats, I would daresay the minority actually find stats a useful tool, simply because stats, by their nature, are ambiguously ridiculous. I posit that most people who like stats like them for the ego route, not because they are using them to, by some unexplained means, 'improve their game'. Can anyone explain to me how seeing a number suggesting you don't get enough kills actually causes you to be better at the game? That's the most idiotic thing I've heard today (to be fair it's only 5AM). Let's take NS1. I find myself dying to skulks a lot. I know this, because... I'm playing the game and spend an awful lot of time in respawn (and everyone jeering at me over chat doesn't help). I'm also armed with an LMG, pistol, and knife. Exactly what stats do I need to use here to see what the problem is? Obviously I need to do two things: 1) Shoot more skulks, and 2) Die less often.
You shoot more skulks by being more accurate and faster with the LMG. You die less often by enhancing situational awareness and... well by doing the first thing, shooting more skulks. NS1 didn't have stats, and I never ventured on a stats server. Yet I learned those two lessons pretty quick. Stats aren't going to tell me that most of my deaths were because I was in front of the squad and got flanked. Stats aren't going to tell me that the parasite I got stuck with caused my doom. Stats are just going to tell me: "You die a lot". Horray, didn't I already know that?
Just because the stats show the Detroit Lions are the worst team in the NFL hasn't done anything to magically boost <i>them</i> with talent and skill. It doesn't work that way. Life isn't an MMO, you can't just grind your accuracy with pistols up. Skill and talent isn't affect at all by what a number says, even if it 'inspires' you to focus on it. In fact that could actually do the opposite, by causing you to not see the forest for the trees. You get better by practice, and the best practice of all is to let it come naturally.
And stat don't precise that you die a lot cuz u play on a server with a lot of pro. And that you are accurate at 10% only because the skulk on this round was a Bunnyhopping Pro-freak.
Another player will have 90% accuracy because they play on a noob server or only with bots. Then you will have people who will play on private server just a two people, to get free kill to boost their stats.
In every game, stats system were full of ######, easily manipulated with a complice friend, and not relevant.
stats are bad. And moreover it keeps some people i don't like in FPS in general. (look at CS.. Brrrrr)
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
Replying to Temphage(thanks for bothering to read btw), maybe the stats might not magically help a person improve his game. But the stats give him an indication of where he is. And in gaming, with so many people playing and if you're not playing super competitively, the only way you can know where your standard is, is to have stats tell you.
So by knowing your position, you would know you need to improve, if you are of that competitive nature. Sometimes people just like being good at things. While not directly leading to an improvement in skill, it encourages it.
But that being said, if you read my whole post, you would know I'm still not supporting stats generally.
<!--quoteo(post=1744961:date=Dec 27 2009, 11:39 AM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Dec 27 2009, 11:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And in gaming, with so many people playing and if you're not playing super competitively, the only way you can know where your standard is, is to have stats tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I suggest having a great replay database as source for wanting to improve skill. In Heroes of Newerth they show all stats, which is not good, but they do also give everyone access to replays to all games played, which is great if you wanna learn.
<!--quoteo(post=1744946:date=Dec 26 2009, 10:54 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 26 2009, 10:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And stat don't precise that you die a lot cuz u play on a server with a lot of pro. And that you are accurate at 10% only because the skulk on this round was a Bunnyhopping Pro-freak.
Another player will have 90% accuracy because they play on a noob server or only with bots. Then you will have people who will play on private server just a two people, to get free kill to boost their stats.
In every game, stats system were full of ######, easily manipulated with a complice friend, and not relevant.
stats are bad. And moreover it keeps some people i don't like in FPS in general. (look at CS.. Brrrrr)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is stats that aren't robust enough. Stat tracking should be more specific IMO. You should be able to track stats individual to a specific game, a specific timeslot.
You can do the global tracking thing in a professional league where only the played games are tracked, but like you say, it breaks it if it's just universally tracked and people can take their stats to some botrape server.
It's too generic and non specific to track stats that way. It's not useful, it requires you to restrict your play to very tight styles and game types with specific opponents to get useful data as a player.
If the stats system is done right the player shouldn't have to think about it at all until after the fact when they go hunting for thier stats later. They should be able to see how well they did during specific games and what not.
I always thought stats were supposed to be fun. Like in Worms, where you'd get a complete read-out on how high you managed to blow yourself up, how many teammates you accidentally drowned, how many shots you took to the face... Or like in TF2, where you'll get occasional pop-ups of "Hey, you managed to kill more dudes this round, well-done."
<!--quoteo(post=1744989:date=Dec 27 2009, 12:53 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 27 2009, 12:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought stats were supposed to be fun. Like in Worms, where you'd get a complete read-out on how high you managed to blow yourself up, how many teammates you accidentally drowned, how many shots you took to the face... Or like in TF2, where you'll get occasional pop-ups of "Hey, you managed to kill more dudes this round, well-done."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps one of the best way to use stats.
Also, bland Elo ratings (based purely on wins/loss) in theory are easy to do and give a (very) rough idea of skill level.
<!--quoteo(post=1744989:date=Dec 27 2009, 01:53 PM:name=Draco_2k)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Draco_2k @ Dec 27 2009, 01:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1744989"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought stats were supposed to be fun. Like in Worms, where you'd get a complete read-out on how high you managed to blow yourself up, how many teammates you accidentally drowned, how many shots you took to the face... Or like in TF2, where you'll get occasional pop-ups of "Hey, you managed to kill more dudes this round, well-done."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There's a reason why such silly things are common to TF2 and Worms. Yes, stats <i>can</i> be fun in the right type of game (i.e. casual/run&gun) - NS2 is not that type of game. If someone wants to Lua-in stats, let that abomination be on their own hands, but Vanilla NS2 should be stats-free save for what's practical.
<!--quoteo(post=1745007:date=Dec 27 2009, 09:45 PM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Dec 27 2009, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason why such silly things are common to TF2 and Worms. Yes, stats <i>can</i> be fun in the right type of game (i.e. casual/run&gun) - NS2 is not that type of game. If someone wants to Lua-in stats, let that abomination be on their own hands, but Vanilla NS2 should be stats-free save for what's practical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally I'd like an achievements system like TF2 still. Achievements hunting is fun, albeit a bit anal retentive focused. NS has alot of things that could be interesting for achievement tracking. Total build time, egg pops, RT defenses, IP build time (base ###### achievement), time spent in hive room, alien structures killed (and of specific types, professional SC hunter would be pretty cool). Give people a badge for hitting certain milestones. If someone wants to get top rank in every badge they have to put time into playing the game in alot of different styles and really explore the content. It encourages people not to simply kill ###### or get in their head a narrow definition of how the game is meant to be played.
Personally I would care more about seeing what kind of stats whatever style I naturally develop result in, and using that information to tweak my style, but the achievement icons are nice as well, and they suit other styles of player. It's better to be inclusive than exclusive. The notion that "those type of people" are what is making your gameplay experience worse isn't something a development studio can afford to seriously consider. A paying fan is a paying fan, and if you don't like to play with all the other fans, NS doesn't needs you just about as much as it needs any of them.
The problem is that once you have achievement, most people will just focus on it. They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc.. And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy. They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.
<!--quoteo(post=1745014:date=Dec 28 2009, 05:09 AM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 28 2009, 05:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that once you have achievement, most people will just focus on it. They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc.. And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy. They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is preferable to people never even bothering in favor of just kill whoring from square one why? Kill ######s will kill ######, it's what they do, at least maby an achievement can make them divert time into something else for a while. Have it something heavy, like the high end achievement ranks take 5 hours of time building structures to unlock or something.
<!--quoteo(post=1745004:date=Dec 28 2009, 02:53 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Dec 28 2009, 02:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745004"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, bland Elo ratings (based purely on wins/loss) in theory are easy to do and give a (very) rough idea of skill level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As has been mentioned, stats are hard to use for judging because they're just not relative to the skill level of your opponents. Win/Loss still follows that, unfortunately.
I suppose chaos theory evens it out in the end, but only if you jump servers at random as opposed to staying on few favourite ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1745007:date=Dec 28 2009, 04:45 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Dec 28 2009, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason why such silly things are common to TF2 and Worms. Yes, stats <i>can</i> be fun in the right type of game (i.e. casual/run&gun) - NS2 is not that type of game. If someone wants to Lua-in stats, let that abomination be on their own hands, but Vanilla NS2 should be stats-free save for what's practical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> NS2 will be a casual game as well as hardcore, for what we know from every developer blog bit. I don't think any of us has a hand in deciding what it will be in otherwise, so saying it "should" have something or other is a non-starter, nevermind presumptuous.
<!--quoteo(post=1745014:date=Dec 28 2009, 01:09 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 28 2009, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that once you have achievement, most people will just focus on it. They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc.. And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy. They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why exactly do you think that'd happen?
Well, because of experiences of games (I play online for 15 years now) And i know that once some tools are given to players, there are used to extrem. For example , if you save the stats of players on a website, the teams recruitement for future NS league will all use that. So every player who want to play on league will have no choice but try to have good stats registered, even if the stats are not relevant of the real skill of the person. And once everyone are playing for the stats and not for the game itself...
Moreover, sometimes, even if you are skilled, you like to have some "fun" and play differently. If each of your action are registered, and if you want to play on league, you'll have no choice but play "seriously" each round of your life to avoid having bad stats.
And even with non registered stats, i'm affraid that people starts judging good people by their "stats", and not by their teamplay. And with this kind of argument, it brings a bad spirit in game.
If you give people a tool to tell them how good they are, they just use the tool and stop thinking by themself of the real important skills of the player (like teamplay or strategy) which can't figure in stats.
<!--quoteo(post=1745013:date=Dec 28 2009, 09:10 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->alien structures killed (and of specific types, professional SC hunter would be pretty cool).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man I remember back in the day, the first time I played Quake I killed a guy, looked down at him, and saw that he was a no-###### 3D model and not a sprite. *THAT* was 'cool'.
<!--quoteo(post=1745013:date=Dec 28 2009, 09:10 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 28 2009, 09:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The notion that "those type of people" are what is making your gameplay experience worse isn't something a development studio can afford to seriously consider.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can absolutely 100% guarantee you the number of people who will quit playing because of stat and achievement ######s is infinitely larger than the number of people who will quit playing because there's no stats or achievements to ######. Because if that's why they're playing, what happens when they run out of achievements to earn? Why waste time and resources when, by your own admission, they're going to quit playing anyway? And if they do keep playing, well obviously they're not playing for just achievements, in which case we can just not waste our god damn time with them in the first place.
Also I'm still utterly bewildered by this ridiculous idea that you can 'tweak your gameplay' or 'improve your skill' by looking at stats. Are we seriously so stupid we can't understand when we're playing well and when we're not? If stats were able to influence your play, there would be no bad sports players. Yet there's still people in MLB who are at-bat with .300 batting averages or lower.
<!--quoteo(post=1745025:date=Dec 28 2009, 04:37 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 28 2009, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745025"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, because of experiences of games (I play online for 15 years now)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but personal experience is never a form of evidence. Anecdotal evidence isn't.
The question is: why would people do that? Do they really? Say, my experience says the exact opposite: I don't care for achievements or stats or know many people who do, and any achievement-whoring I see is done for fun. Or at least most of them are, there are always going to be ######bags, of course...
The problem with persistent stats could be easily solved by letting people turn their registration or display off. As for people who want to use them in an argument... <a href="http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Argument_from_Authority" target="_blank">They're morons. Ignore them.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1745029:date=Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can absolutely 100% guarantee you the number of people who will quit playing because of stat and achievement ######s is infinitely larger than the number of people who will quit playing because there's no stats or achievements to ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you back it up with anything though?
<!--quoteo(post=1745029:date=Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I'm still utterly bewildered by this ridiculous idea that you can 'tweak your gameplay' or 'improve your skill' by looking at stats. Are we seriously so stupid we can't understand when we're playing well and when we're not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. He's stupid, you're stupid, I'm stupid, we're all stupid. If you don't understand that, this only means you're even stupider than that.
Stats don't lie. Or, rather, aren't supposed to lie when done properly.
Yeah, but a thing i've learn from experience, that's morons are 90% of players on very popular games. That's the same difference of players between some MMORPG like everquest(or some other) and Wow And the same difference of players between CS and TFC.
BadMouthIt ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titlJoin Date: 2004-05-21Member: 28815Members
There is one solution that i don't get. Its that the stats should be made optional, as in that they can be turned off by those who do not like them. But the main argument isn't for people who don't like stats. the argument is to prevent people who do like to stat-boost by not being team-orientated, from using those stats. It doesn't matter if you can make the stats optional. The people who are engrossed so wholly with stats would keep them on. Just remove the stats altogether. Why leave any semblence of it behind?
And to Temphage, stats dont improve people's skills. It makes them aware on their ranking. And I don't think its correct to say that people should know whether they are good or not. These are purely subjective terms when measured by the people themselves. To get an objective view on things, they need to see stats to know how they are for faring. For example, if you are crap, and play on a crap server, and all the servers with low enough ping that you can play on, all have crap players. But you are the best crappy player. So in your view, you are good. But if you add in stats, then these people will look at it and know that they are crap. It gives them a goal to work towards to. To be better. It doesn't make a person better. It allows them to know they have the opportunity to be better.
Though the bad outweighs the good, and I think there should be a more conducive way to inform the player on his player skills.
<!--quoteo(post=1745051:date=Dec 28 2009, 06:13 PM:name=BadMouth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BadMouth @ Dec 28 2009, 06:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745051"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example, if you are crap, and play on a crap server, and all the servers with low enough ping that you can play on, all have crap players. But you are the best crappy player. So in your view, you are good. But if you add in stats, then these people will look at it and know that they are crap. It gives them a goal to work towards to. To be better. It doesn't make a person better. It allows them to know they have the opportunity to be better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, so let's say you are right.
Let's say you are the best crappy player. What the hell are you going to do about it? You can't play on the high-ping servers because that'd be counter-intuitive. Maybe your favorite server has a lot of crappy players - so you're suggesting that people sacrifice the in-game community aspect of a multiplayer game to chase stats - yeah that's <b>really</b> productive. Wait, that makes me incredibly depressed that people like that can so completely miss half the point of multiplayer gaming.
You can't aim at skulks faster than you already are, jump faster, bite more accurately, etc. Stats aren't going to allow you to expand your 'skill window', and EVERYONE has a skill window you aren't ever going to leave. The only thing you can do to make your stats better is to change how you play, which means if you aren't already, you should start spawncamping, ignoring the rush because you could die and it'd affect your stats, and basically playing in a way not coincident with your team's goals, but with your own.
This is going to be true. All the top players are going to have gotten there through gameplay like I suggested combined with unreasonable playtimes most players aren't going to be able to achieve. It's been true in every game to have ever had stats.
So yes, the <u>only way</u> stats could improve anyone is by <b>promoting stat whoring</b>. There's no other logical way the observance of stats could improve someone's ability to play. If stats are encouraging a "PLAY 2 WIN" mentality, that is pretty much the most definitive reason in this thread to never have stats, ever, and to add a hook in the LUA scripting engine to never allow stats to be possible.
Stats cannot make it possible to aim faster than you already do, and if you're already aiming faster than everyone you play with, who gives a ****? Stats can only change your gameplay and let you improve your stats by adjusting to a stat-based mentality and approach to the game.
Comments
Also, a lot can be done with imaginative non-public stat tracking and positive achievements. Like medic achievements in TF2 encouraging people to play medics more often (same with other less popular classes). Almost in NS1/NS2, It would be interesting to see stats for...
-how many times you've dropped a 2nd hive, 3rd hive, total hive drops.
-built chambers as gorge, and RT's
-time spent building RT's as marines (and other buildings)
-Times you've killed a marine that was attacking one your gorges
-RT's destroyed as skulk/fade/onos/gorge
...then from these you can get achievements, SUCH AS...
"Skulk of Attrition" -destroy 10 RT's as skulk in one game
"Res Chomper!"- destroy X lifetime RT's.
"Res Denied!"- destroy Y lifetime RT's before they pay for themselves (within 60 seconds in NS1).
"Weldbot!" - Weld X amount of armor in total.
Some servers in NS1 already have welding time stats. Good, but problem is sometimes people go overboard and just try and weld the whole game when sometimes they could do a better job doing something else. Problem comes from everyone being able to see that player's name at the end of the round, hence why some player can blow a round being semi-useless only to have their name appear at the end.
1. When as a fade it comes to more safe kills and pressure at marine start or dieing to force a beacon that will save a hive, in which case I would choose the former sometimes because of stats.
2. When as a fade it comes to denying/killing a PG and dieing or allowing it to build/stay up but keeping safe pressure on it till someone else will sacrifice themselves for it, I would usually choose the latter sometimes for the sole reason of stats.
3.When as a marine it comes to killing an onos or fade and dieing or pursuing until I am no longer safe and retreating, I would choose the latter with the primary reason being stats.
These are real examples I myself have done and have seen others do in the name of stat whoring. As someone else stated before I have seen entire alien teams refuse to hit the infantry portals just so they could farm stats. I have even seen stat whoring go as far as people leaving if they are being chased as a fade and are low on energy, JUST FOR STATS.
...
Without stats I would be willing to go the healing, building ,support, etc... classes more often. Without stats I would be willing to make decisions to sacrifice myself for the team more often as it would then have zero negative effect on me.
Note: The above examples are of pub nub games not competitive games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Best first post. ever. I think we all are in the same boat to varying degrees, whether we choose to admit it or not.
NS at it's core is primarily an action FPS game. As such, "killing stuff" is a core skill, and any measure that even remotely expresses this will hold sway over players. The sanctimonious prigs that go around preaching that "It's a team game, kills don't matter - I play to win" are dangerously misinformed and sometimes I wonder if they even believe the platitudes spewing from their mouth. It's as irking the obnoxiously trite phrases you hear tossed about like verbal farts in the wind "___ doesn't matter, it's what's inside you that counts".
The naked truth is that, kills DO matter (even if not to you) because vanity exists in almost everyone, and when forced out into the spotlight (i.e. global rankings) it can be anywhere from a nagging voice to an uncontrollable monster. Even the "modest" few who go out of their way to <u>always</u> put the team ahead of their personal gain will invariably be affected when one of the many players who do not impacts their ability to win. (obviously though, none of this applies in a competitive scenario where individual vanity is much more costly).
My standpoint on the matter is not obvious from the above. I in fact loath obvious signs of hand-holding, which means if pertinent information (such as kills and deaths) are deliberately removed from the scoreboard in an attempt to unnaturally force a certain behaviour, I perceive it as an insult to the player. On the other hand, creating rankings and stats solely to entice players to "grind" them is equally as loath-worthy and for this I've recently come to despise the word "achievement". So in summary, useful information such as kills, deaths, teampoints, etc. should be shown where and when they apply, and I firmly believe this is in -game for the duration of the match and not permanently in a database accessible publicly via browser.
Steamworks has this
I don't know what goes on in your head, but I can tell you what goes on in mine. I do not find achievements or stats to be pleasurable, to such an extent where I cannot fathom the type of mind that does. I simply don't understand and I'm fairly leery of the kind of person who is driven through some bizarre urge to make his ambiguous numbers bigger than someone else's ambiguous numbers. And then one day down the line, they stop caring about those ambiguous numbers and chase an entirely new set of them. It's *alien* to me. Getting a gold star <b>YAY 4 YUO</b> 'achievement' isn't motivating, it's almost <i>embarrassing</i>. It's the same demented mentality that 'motivates' people to keep spending money in World of Warcraft, chasing the endless stream of carrots. Then when you get your 'best' pile of worthless digital gear, Blizzard makes a new set for you to chase.
My feedback loop is based on my own impression of play. If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game? If you do, that's kinda sad.
So no. I don't want public stats, achievements, or any kind of in-game anything to reflect on any sort of this 'meta' BS that's become so popular these days. I may not understand WHY people are motivated by these (My best guess is it's just the nerd equivalent of dogs humping each other to establish dominance) but I know that if even a handful of people are playing to chase stats and achievements, it's too many. As Heculablubawhatever said, maybe it IS that you are all just trying your hardest to make your stats as impressive as possible (and maybe don't even know why - nobody else will EVER care about your dumb stats). This may not be far fetched. If the 'meta' experience is subtly bringing down your game experience like that, you'd be better off without the stats. And I doubt the number of people who legitimately have their game experience ENHANCED by the meta experience is a significant number.
I once read an article about social networking that explained why it's so popular and I think the mental mind-**** that motivates people on Twitter may be the same that motivates them for achievements. Basically, Twitter, Facebook, etc. are not there to actually fill a void in anyone's lives. They are there to fill the void they create themselves. Many people are addicted to Twitter and cannot go a day without sharing their idiotic lives with other people doing the same. The gratification isn't that you're doing something you've always needed to do - it's that "I'm a Twit, so therefore I must Tweet", or "all my friends are always on Facebook, so I have to be too!" It's almost analogous to a drug addiction. You only start jonesing for heroin AFTER you had your first hit.
The answer to meta-game features [and social networking] like achievements is simple - how did you live your life before achievements and stats? Did you find games less enjoyable? No, you didn't. You never knew they existed and it was impossible for you to care about them. The concept of going back to a life free of these isn't a difficult one, and therefore the only 'impact' the lack of these features could possibly have would be withdrawal symptoms. You *need* your stats because... you NEED THEM. Just a little bit, just my K:D! Please!
Let it go people. Play the game because the game is fun, not because a compulsive obsession with a web page's numbers is fun.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOL</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incredible post my man. Couldn't have put it better myself. Remember the good ol' games, where all this obsesssion over achievements and stats weren't even invented!
I don't know what goes on in your head, but I can tell you what goes on in mine. I do not find achievements or stats to be pleasurable, to such an extent where I cannot fathom the type of mind that does. I simply don't understand and I'm fairly leery of the kind of person who is driven through some bizarre urge to make his ambiguous numbers bigger than someone else's ambiguous numbers. And then one day down the line, they stop caring about those ambiguous numbers and chase an entirely new set of them. It's *alien* to me. Getting a gold star <b>YAY 4 YUO</b> 'achievement' isn't motivating, it's almost <i>embarrassing</i>. It's the same demented mentality that 'motivates' people to keep spending money in World of Warcraft, chasing the endless stream of carrots. Then when you get your 'best' pile of worthless digital gear, Blizzard makes a new set for you to chase.
My feedback loop is based on my own impression of play. If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game? If you do, that's kinda sad.
So no. I don't want public stats, achievements, or any kind of in-game anything to reflect on any sort of this 'meta' BS that's become so popular these days. I may not understand WHY people are motivated by these (My best guess is it's just the nerd equivalent of dogs humping each other to establish dominance) but I know that if even a handful of people are playing to chase stats and achievements, it's too many. As Heculablubawhatever said, maybe it IS that you are all just trying your hardest to make your stats as impressive as possible (and maybe don't even know why - nobody else will EVER care about your dumb stats). This may not be far fetched. If the 'meta' experience is subtly bringing down your game experience like that, you'd be better off without the stats. And I doubt the number of people who legitimately have their game experience ENHANCED by the meta experience is a significant number.
I once read an article about social networking that explained why it's so popular and I think the mental mind-**** that motivates people on Twitter may be the same that motivates them for achievements. Basically, Twitter, Facebook, etc. are not there to actually fill a void in anyone's lives. They are there to fill the void they create themselves. Many people are addicted to Twitter and cannot go a day without sharing their idiotic lives with other people doing the same. The gratification isn't that you're doing something you've always needed to do - it's that "I'm a Twit, so therefore I must Tweet", or "all my friends are always on Facebook, so I have to be too!" It's almost analogous to a drug addiction. You only start jonesing for heroin AFTER you had your first hit.
The answer to meta-game features [and social networking] like achievements is simple - how did you live your life before achievements and stats? Did you find games less enjoyable? No, you didn't. You never knew they existed and it was impossible for you to care about them. The concept of going back to a life free of these isn't a difficult one, and therefore the only 'impact' the lack of these features could possibly have would be withdrawal symptoms. You *need* your stats because... you NEED THEM. Just a little bit, just my K:D! Please!
Let it go people. Play the game because the game is fun, not because a compulsive obsession with a web page's numbers is fun.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOL</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have no argument outside of personal preference. My preference is the opposite. Dis-inclusion of statistics can and have ruined my fun in games. Worse yet, statistics systems that are overly simple and not effective or relevant to gameplay.
I really would like to have stats to the depth of per bullet fired, there are some very interesting things it allows for. I can evaluate my play and identify area's of weakness vs other players quickly and easily and strategize methods of improving. I LOATHE trial and error, I have a tendency to quit anything I'm teaching myself if it isn't responsive enough to help me figure out what I'm doing wrong and why it is wrong. Statistics systems, if robust enough, help with that IMMENSELY.
I need statistics, because it's a game, it's supposed to be fun, and it's not fun if it's frustrating to figure out and nonresponsive. Statistics tell me how I'm playing, and I can use that information to evolve and expand, and that entire process is what makes gameplay fun.
If you don't like stats, and don't want to look at the stat keeping interfaces, stats can still be shuffled to the side, put into a web database that has optional access, or hidden in menus accessed in the configuration and setup screens of the game. If you want to argue that you should be able to play the game without stats being shoved in your face by the ingame interface, I'll support you on that, there's a time and a place, and while I'm focusing on shooting things is not a good time and place to try to distract me. If you're going to continue arguing for complete removal of any statistics system, back it off, time to live and let live, I don't want to play your type of game, and you have no right to tell me the way I'm supposed to play or the way I'm supposed to have fun.
First, sometime, you just want to have fun, experiment thing, with friend, and you don't want that your experiment and fun crap your stats and your chance to enter a good party on NS2 league.
Second : It depends what you track : for example in many games, once the "kill" numbers (frags) are counted, people don't even concern for the general strategy or winning the round, they just concern about themselves and their kills number.
such a behavior can kill a game.
Even if you make a tracking more complete than just "kill" , it can't cover all the possibility of a strategy.
For example, if the gorge heal is less rewarded than the skulks kills, no one will go gorge.
it's just an example but there will always be situation where the general strategy and teamplay to win will differe with personnal interest for stats.
This is bull######, IMO
Making your team win should be promoted, not your individual skill.
Player A - "Hey I've been playing for so many months and I've noticed that the lerk spike blast pattern is too wide / chaotic / whatever making it almost too hard to hit marines."
Player B - "LOL I'VE BEEN PLAYING FOR SO MANY MONTHS + 1 AND HAVE 75% ACCURACY WITH SPIKES AND A K/D RATIO OF 3.1/1, I SEE YOU HAVE 22% ACCURACY AND 0.9/1. IVE BEEN PLAYING LONGER SO STFU AND L2P NOOB."
I say if people want stats, they can squander their own time making a server script for it.
Here is my take on stat tracking.
In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.
The flipside of the coin, is that some players go about boosting their stats by "exploiting" gameplay mechanics, making the game less fun for others. The term "exploit" doesn't mean any rules or bent or broken. It is simply that the player acts in a way that is detrimental to the gaming community as a whole. Dud provides very good examples of such behaviour, acting for the individual rather than the group. More often than not, in a team-based game, while not necessarily making a team lose, it often lowers their chances of winning. Another earlier example given in this thread is spawn camping. Players spawn camp to boost their stats, undoubtedly making the game less enjoyable for the players being spawn camped. While none of these actions are illegal, it does lower the enjoyment factor of other players. The question arises as to whether the stat boosting player owe it to the other players, to make the game as enjoyable as possible for everyone. Essentially, why should they play the game as to how other people want them to play it, compromising their own enjoyment of it?
The answer is, there is really no real practical reason for doing so. In the internet, players come and go and it tends to be a very impersonal place. If one does not feel a connection towards other players, there is essentially no reason as to why one should care about other people's enjoyment. This is especially so when the others cannot act in a way to stop you. It would be an entirely different scenario if other players could act against the stat boosting player by for example, votekicking the player off the server, or having an admin do so. Then in that case, the stat boosting player would have to take his or her selfish activities elsewhere, or change his mindset altogether. But I'm not going to consider that option since the point of this entire argument is that other players cannot act.
Appealing to the stat boosting player's conscience and good moral sense might be an option. Telling him that his actions are affecting other players negatively might eventually work out but I think the chances are slim. As I said, the internet is an impersonal place. The player can easily choose to discard the opinions of other players. One argument into saying that these stat tracking players should stop their selfish activities, is that one does not really need to care about the stats. After all, in most cases, having these stats do not unlock anything or give any bonuses. They are simply there to inform. Well, different people enjoy different things. And it is really not to any of us to say how any other person enjoys a certain thing or why they do so. It is just personal preference but obviously stat boosting does link to a sense of achievement and inflating the ego. But if these increased stats are obtained by "exploiting" systems, there is no real merit behind these stats right? True. However, people are great at deluding themselves. Also, while you may know that you are cheating yourself, not every other player knows that and as stated in earlier posts, you can boast your stats to others who don't know how you got it.
Considering these kind of stats seem to have more negative effects than positive effects, I would think that the inclusion of such statistics would be detrimental to team-based games. It is important to note when comparing to games that have this kind of stat tracking and how successful they are, to note how team oriented they are. The less team oriented they are, say in deathmatch games, the less relevant these stats are on how the players affect the enjoyment of the game of others.
Moving onto a different kind of statistic. To avoid confusion let's call the previous stats(Kill/death ratio, etc) stat A and the one I am about to discuss, stat B. Stat B(time played, favourite weapon, favourite class, etc) are less geared towards skill and more focused on play style. Generally, there is no satisfaction to be had when boosting these kind of stats. Either because there is absolutely no skill involved in raising these stats or that it is really hard to care about how these kind of stats and there is no way to measure how these stats of one player are better than the other. I think there is no harm in allowing these kind of stats around. Stat B hardly adds or detracts from the gameplay experience. However, including them would be a nice aesthetic touch to the game.
Finally, touching upon stat C(location of player deaths, most effective weapon, etc). Stat C differs from stat A and stat B in that they track globally while stats A and B are focused on the individual. These kind of stats are very useful as they allow players to know and learn strategies of the game just by looking at them. Stat C would not encourage the kind of negative behaviour found prevalent in stat A since individual actions would only have a miniscule effect on them. While stat C does benefit players, the real benefit goes to developers, as stated in previous posts. Developers can learn from how the players are playing, and what strategies have involved. In doing so, developers can tweak the game to make it better and correct bugs and exploits.
So in deciding on whether stats are good or bad for the game, it is worthwhile to consider which stats are being talked about. In my opinion, stat A has more disadvantages than advantages and should be left out, stat B is good for aesthetic purposes, and stat C is definitely beneficial and should be included.
Addressing some previous posts on "if you don't like stats, just ignore them. there is no need to remove them", I would have to say that such a scenario applies to stat B, but definitely not stat A. For some people, ignoring stat A is an impossibility, due to their competitive nature. I think dud has encapsulated it very well. He does not need to apologise for the way he is, for being competitive is not a bad thing. But once it infringes upon the enjoyment of others, it should be removed. And I have yet to encounter a person that has absolute "need" of statistics of the stat A variety.<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoting for great justice. Though I want to mention something you said:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In order to address this question properly, I would have to define the certain types of stat tracking. There are the stats that track individual skill, which are mainly in my opinion, geared towards to boosting the users ego. Certain stats include the Kill/Death ratio, total number of kills, headshots, win percentage, highest kill streak, etc. Having a high grade in these stats would obviously boost a player's satisfaction and ego, knowing that he or she would have achieved a certain desirable standard. Having a high grade in those areas might benefit a team in a team-based game, although this is not a certainty. It does give the players something to aim for, and makes players strive for improvement, or at the very least, increasing their stats to give the impression of improvement. One can go about improving these stats by legitimately improving their skill level(faster reaction, more precise aiming, developing a better sense of awareness, etc), which would obvious benefit their team in a team-based game. Players who opt to choose this route would undoubtedly be an asset to the team and in this sense, stat tracking does enhance community play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're painting a pretty rosy picture here. As I mentioned in my own beefy post:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of the people who do want stats, I would daresay the minority actually find stats a useful tool, simply because stats, by their nature, are ambiguously ridiculous. I posit that most people who like stats like them for the ego route, not because they are using them to, by some unexplained means, 'improve their game'. Can anyone explain to me how seeing a number suggesting you don't get enough kills actually causes you to be better at the game? That's the most idiotic thing I've heard today (to be fair it's only 5AM). Let's take NS1. I find myself dying to skulks a lot. I know this, because... I'm playing the game and spend an awful lot of time in respawn (and everyone jeering at me over chat doesn't help). I'm also armed with an LMG, pistol, and knife. Exactly what stats do I need to use here to see what the problem is? Obviously I need to do two things: 1) Shoot more skulks, and 2) Die less often.
You shoot more skulks by being more accurate and faster with the LMG. You die less often by enhancing situational awareness and... well by doing the first thing, shooting more skulks. NS1 didn't have stats, and I never ventured on a stats server. Yet I learned those two lessons pretty quick. Stats aren't going to tell me that most of my deaths were because I was in front of the squad and got flanked. Stats aren't going to tell me that the parasite I got stuck with caused my doom. Stats are just going to tell me: "You die a lot". Horray, didn't I already know that?
Just because the stats show the Detroit Lions are the worst team in the NFL hasn't done anything to magically boost <i>them</i> with talent and skill. It doesn't work that way. Life isn't an MMO, you can't just grind your accuracy with pistols up. Skill and talent isn't affect at all by what a number says, even if it 'inspires' you to focus on it. In fact that could actually do the opposite, by causing you to not see the forest for the trees. You get better by practice, and the best practice of all is to let it come naturally.
Another player will have 90% accuracy because they play on a noob server or only with bots.
Then you will have people who will play on private server just a two people, to get free kill to boost their stats.
In every game, stats system were full of ######, easily manipulated with a complice friend, and not relevant.
stats are bad. And moreover it keeps some people i don't like in FPS in general. (look at CS.. Brrrrr)
So by knowing your position, you would know you need to improve, if you are of that competitive nature. Sometimes people just like being good at things. While not directly leading to an improvement in skill, it encourages it.
But that being said, if you read my whole post, you would know I'm still not supporting stats generally.
I suggest having a great replay database as source for wanting to improve skill. In Heroes of Newerth they show all stats, which is not good, but they do also give everyone access to replays to all games played, which is great if you wanna learn.
Another player will have 90% accuracy because they play on a noob server or only with bots.
Then you will have people who will play on private server just a two people, to get free kill to boost their stats.
In every game, stats system were full of ######, easily manipulated with a complice friend, and not relevant.
stats are bad. And moreover it keeps some people i don't like in FPS in general. (look at CS.. Brrrrr)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is stats that aren't robust enough. Stat tracking should be more specific IMO. You should be able to track stats individual to a specific game, a specific timeslot.
You can do the global tracking thing in a professional league where only the played games are tracked, but like you say, it breaks it if it's just universally tracked and people can take their stats to some botrape server.
It's too generic and non specific to track stats that way. It's not useful, it requires you to restrict your play to very tight styles and game types with specific opponents to get useful data as a player.
If the stats system is done right the player shouldn't have to think about it at all until after the fact when they go hunting for thier stats later. They should be able to see how well they did during specific games and what not.
Perhaps one of the best way to use stats.
Also, bland Elo ratings (based purely on wins/loss) in theory are easy to do and give a (very) rough idea of skill level.
Personally I'd like an achievements system like TF2 still. Achievements hunting is fun, albeit a bit anal retentive focused. NS has alot of things that could be interesting for achievement tracking. Total build time, egg pops, RT defenses, IP build time (base ###### achievement), time spent in hive room, alien structures killed (and of specific types, professional SC hunter would be pretty cool). Give people a badge for hitting certain milestones. If someone wants to get top rank in every badge they have to put time into playing the game in alot of different styles and really explore the content. It encourages people not to simply kill ###### or get in their head a narrow definition of how the game is meant to be played.
Personally I would care more about seeing what kind of stats whatever style I naturally develop result in, and using that information to tweak my style, but the achievement icons are nice as well, and they suit other styles of player. It's better to be inclusive than exclusive. The notion that "those type of people" are what is making your gameplay experience worse isn't something a development studio can afford to seriously consider. A paying fan is a paying fan, and if you don't like to play with all the other fans, NS doesn't needs you just about as much as it needs any of them.
They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc..
And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy.
They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.
They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc..
And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy.
They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is preferable to people never even bothering in favor of just kill whoring from square one why? Kill ######s will kill ######, it's what they do, at least maby an achievement can make them divert time into something else for a while. Have it something heavy, like the high end achievement ranks take 5 hours of time building structures to unlock or something.
As has been mentioned, stats are hard to use for judging because they're just not relative to the skill level of your opponents. Win/Loss still follows that, unfortunately.
I suppose chaos theory evens it out in the end, but only if you jump servers at random as opposed to staying on few favourite ones.
<!--quoteo(post=1745007:date=Dec 28 2009, 04:45 AM:name=R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (R_e_n_e_g_a_d_e @ Dec 28 2009, 04:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's a reason why such silly things are common to TF2 and Worms. Yes, stats <i>can</i> be fun in the right type of game (i.e. casual/run&gun) - NS2 is not that type of game. If someone wants to Lua-in stats, let that abomination be on their own hands, but Vanilla NS2 should be stats-free save for what's practical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS2 will be a casual game as well as hardcore, for what we know from every developer blog bit. I don't think any of us has a hand in deciding what it will be in otherwise, so saying it "should" have something or other is a non-starter, nevermind presumptuous.
<!--quoteo(post=1745014:date=Dec 28 2009, 01:09 PM:name=Tgaud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tgaud @ Dec 28 2009, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745014"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that once you have achievement, most people will just focus on it.
They won't be interested in building things in order to focus on their most pretentious things like kills etc..
And for a result : less discipline, marines wont listen to commander (its already a problem in public server) or concern about the team wins or strategy.
They will just focus on getting effectives kills to get Lol-roxor-pro stats.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly do you think that'd happen?
For example , if you save the stats of players on a website, the teams recruitement for future NS league will all use that. So every player who want to play on league will have no choice but try to have good stats registered, even if the stats are not relevant of the real skill of the person.
And once everyone are playing for the stats and not for the game itself...
Moreover, sometimes, even if you are skilled, you like to have some "fun" and play differently.
If each of your action are registered, and if you want to play on league, you'll have no choice but play "seriously" each round of your life to avoid having bad stats.
And even with non registered stats, i'm affraid that people starts judging good people by their "stats", and not by their teamplay.
And with this kind of argument, it brings a bad spirit in game.
If you give people a tool to tell them how good they are, they just use the tool and stop thinking by themself of the real important skills of the player (like teamplay or strategy) which can't figure in stats.
Man I remember back in the day, the first time I played Quake I killed a guy, looked down at him, and saw that he was a no-###### 3D model and not a sprite. *THAT* was 'cool'.
I can absolutely 100% guarantee you the number of people who will quit playing because of stat and achievement ######s is infinitely larger than the number of people who will quit playing because there's no stats or achievements to ######. Because if that's why they're playing, what happens when they run out of achievements to earn? Why waste time and resources when, by your own admission, they're going to quit playing anyway? And if they do keep playing, well obviously they're not playing for just achievements, in which case we can just not waste our god damn time with them in the first place.
Also I'm still utterly bewildered by this ridiculous idea that you can 'tweak your gameplay' or 'improve your skill' by looking at stats. Are we seriously so stupid we can't understand when we're playing well and when we're not? If stats were able to influence your play, there would be no bad sports players. Yet there's still people in MLB who are at-bat with .300 batting averages or lower.
I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but personal experience is never a form of evidence. Anecdotal evidence isn't.
The question is: why would people do that? Do they really? Say, my experience says the exact opposite: I don't care for achievements or stats or know many people who do, and any achievement-whoring I see is done for fun. Or at least most of them are, there are always going to be ######bags, of course...
The problem with persistent stats could be easily solved by letting people turn their registration or display off. As for people who want to use them in an argument... <a href="http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Argument_from_Authority" target="_blank">They're morons. Ignore them.</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1745029:date=Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can absolutely 100% guarantee you the number of people who will quit playing because of stat and achievement ######s is infinitely larger than the number of people who will quit playing because there's no stats or achievements to ######.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you back it up with anything though?
<!--quoteo(post=1745029:date=Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Dec 28 2009, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1745029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I'm still utterly bewildered by this ridiculous idea that you can 'tweak your gameplay' or 'improve your skill' by looking at stats. Are we seriously so stupid we can't understand when we're playing well and when we're not?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. He's stupid, you're stupid, I'm stupid, we're all stupid. If you don't understand that, this only means you're even stupider than that.
Stats don't lie. Or, rather, aren't supposed to lie when done properly.
Yeah, but a thing i've learn from experience, that's morons are 90% of players on very popular games.
That's the same difference of players between some MMORPG like everquest(or some other) and Wow
And the same difference of players between CS and TFC.
And I think NS2 will be a good but popular game..
And to Temphage, stats dont improve people's skills. It makes them aware on their ranking. And I don't think its correct to say that people should know whether they are good or not. These are purely subjective terms when measured by the people themselves. To get an objective view on things, they need to see stats to know how they are for faring. For example, if you are crap, and play on a crap server, and all the servers with low enough ping that you can play on, all have crap players. But you are the best crappy player. So in your view, you are good. But if you add in stats, then these people will look at it and know that they are crap. It gives them a goal to work towards to. To be better. It doesn't make a person better. It allows them to know they have the opportunity to be better.
Though the bad outweighs the good, and I think there should be a more conducive way to inform the player on his player skills.
Okay, so let's say you are right.
Let's say you are the best crappy player. What the hell are you going to do about it? You can't play on the high-ping servers because that'd be counter-intuitive. Maybe your favorite server has a lot of crappy players - so you're suggesting that people sacrifice the in-game community aspect of a multiplayer game to chase stats - yeah that's <b>really</b> productive. Wait, that makes me incredibly depressed that people like that can so completely miss half the point of multiplayer gaming.
You can't aim at skulks faster than you already are, jump faster, bite more accurately, etc. Stats aren't going to allow you to expand your 'skill window', and EVERYONE has a skill window you aren't ever going to leave. The only thing you can do to make your stats better is to change how you play, which means if you aren't already, you should start spawncamping, ignoring the rush because you could die and it'd affect your stats, and basically playing in a way not coincident with your team's goals, but with your own.
This is going to be true. All the top players are going to have gotten there through gameplay like I suggested combined with unreasonable playtimes most players aren't going to be able to achieve. It's been true in every game to have ever had stats.
So yes, the <u>only way</u> stats could improve anyone is by <b>promoting stat whoring</b>. There's no other logical way the observance of stats could improve someone's ability to play. If stats are encouraging a "PLAY 2 WIN" mentality, that is pretty much the most definitive reason in this thread to never have stats, ever, and to add a hook in the LUA scripting engine to never allow stats to be possible.
Stats cannot make it possible to aim faster than you already do, and if you're already aiming faster than everyone you play with, who gives a ****? Stats can only change your gameplay and let you improve your stats by adjusting to a stat-based mentality and approach to the game.