A fear I'd like to share
Hebacheba
Join Date: 2009-06-19 Member: 67872Members
Join Date: 2009-06-19 Member: 67872Members
<div class="IPBDescription">stats</div>It seems to be a growing trend in online multiplayer games to include more and more intensive stat tracking, to the point where every single bullet that comes out of your gun will be tracked and permanently displayed on your stats page.
Personally, I think it's ruining video games. I absolutely despise any sort of stat tracking. Having the feeling that every single move I make will be tracked leeches all of the fun out of playing the game. If everything in the world catered to me, I'd take all stat tracking out of every game that's ever existed and send every advocate for them flying into a volcano, but we can't all get what we want.
I'd like to use this post to say to UWE that if you make a stat tracking system, at least make it optional so that a person like me can just have fun with the game.
That being said, what is everybody else's opinion?
Personally, I think it's ruining video games. I absolutely despise any sort of stat tracking. Having the feeling that every single move I make will be tracked leeches all of the fun out of playing the game. If everything in the world catered to me, I'd take all stat tracking out of every game that's ever existed and send every advocate for them flying into a volcano, but we can't all get what we want.
I'd like to use this post to say to UWE that if you make a stat tracking system, at least make it optional so that a person like me can just have fun with the game.
That being said, what is everybody else's opinion?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I think at the end if there is a fun display like most kills and most xenos or whatever it's fine, and kinda funny sometimes, but yeah, overdone is like time taken away from gameplay and improvements/bug fixes.
I like it. I like to see how I've done for myself and comparing to others.
No matter that my kill ratio is 0.3, I still like it.
It shows how active I've been.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But,,, I'd rather like it as a mod for servers to have, not default.
Like always, though, individual servers will track whatever they see fit.
Could live with clans getting stat-tracking in-depth but on a player basis it should be kept simple.
For example, tracking accuracy and use of a weapon, where people tend to die, who wins, etc. is a great way to generate data you can then use to tweak the game even more. Seem like one class is being favored? look into ways to incentivize playing the other classes. Seem like there's a particular meat grinder choke point? Make alternative paths/lines of fire.
Also, they can really help with matchmaking. If the rest of the server is out of your league, you can leave and go find something more at your skill level.
I think the problem we're facing is too much access to PERSONAL stats. With these globs of feedback, some people will get overwhelmed or distracted and instead play for the stats. Or, people try to stat ###### by choosing particular match-ups or using particular setups.
I personally simply ignore them most of the time.
The solution is to only reveal the essential stats to the players. Perhaps time played, win ratio, maybe your overall skill rating. However, don't let other players see them (allow for better fair matchmaking by preventing selective match-ups) and keep some of the more detailed info to yourself. Most players don't care. Or, perhaps make it available, but make them actually seek it out instead of dumping it into their clients.
I think the issue comes with how it becomes presented. Privacy considerations are important plus the stat should not be in your face all the time. Like maybe not at all during gameplay but available in the options menu. Showing them during map loading is cool too, like in Team Fortress 2.
Also with stat tracking achievements become possible which can be quite fun and also an effective teaching tool for newer players.
I think the unrealstat system that you could access online was super well done to. And that was like 10 years ago.
It just occurred to be that the OP might be a troll... maybe. oh well.
For example, tracking accuracy and use of a weapon, where people tend to die, who wins, etc. is a great way to generate data you can then use to tweak the game even more. Seem like one class is being favored? look into ways to incentivize playing the other classes. Seem like there's a particular meat grinder choke point? Make alternative paths/lines of fire.
Also, they can really help with matchmaking. If the rest of the server is out of your league, you can leave and go find something more at your skill level.
I think the problem we're facing is too much access to PERSONAL stats. With these globs of feedback, some people will get overwhelmed or distracted and instead play for the stats. Or, people try to stat ###### by choosing particular match-ups or using particular setups.
I personally simply ignore them most of the time.
The solution is to only reveal the essential stats to the players. Perhaps time played, win ratio, maybe your overall skill rating. However, don't let other players see them (allow for better fair matchmaking by preventing selective match-ups) and keep some of the more detailed info to yourself. Most players don't care. Or, perhaps make it available, but make them actually seek it out instead of dumping it into their clients.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. Not that it really matters. Those who stat ###### will probably backward-engineer the system do it anyways. A least it wouldn't be as common.
So, some general team stats could help comms a lot in developing their decisionmaking and strategies.
I hope there are robust and customizable add ons for those that want them.
Top down view of deaths and location.
Halo 3 used them to analyze single and multiplayer choke points.
Stats are a wonderful tool to justify a tweak
It goes a little beyond gut decisions.
Not at all. More the opposite: It motivates to improve and displays your performance in detail which is very important imo. I like to see how much damage I'm dealing or how often an item is being used for example. Also, it helps the in-depth gameplay by monitoring it and showing statistics of the teams.
How would numbers lessen the fun of a game?
It's essential for competitive play.
It can be useful for scouting for competitive play, but the trap that other games has fallen into is that stats can become more important than winning for players. This reduces both the gameplay and the value of the stats.
I think the ideas suggested here are on the right thread for avoiding that. There was a similar topic about avoiding whoring of achievements at the expense of winning the game as well.
It's no fun to see the numbers of your opponents rise day in day out without anything you could besides contributing to their scores.
It really, <b>really</b> isn't.
Just want to say one example I'm playing right now is Heroes of Newerth (it's in beta). There they use a "Public Skill Rating" that EVERYONE bases the setup before a match on, and even a %:age and autobalance system based on that rating. It's rewarding to increase your PSR but most of the time it seems more like people are playing for the rating (and unfairly judge people by it), and then of course there's tons of other personal stats you can track as well.
So yeah, hopefully UWE will avoid that.
First of all, I'm absolutely fine with and encourage developers recording player stats to figure out how to make their game better. I start to get aggravated by stat tracking when anybody who feels like it can go on anybody else's stat page and see how many times they've missed with a certain gun over the entire time they've played the game.
Second, I would like to reiterate that stat tracking that is optional would be the best decision. That way, anybody who wanted to have their stats tracked could, while people who were playing just for the fun of the game, like myself, can opt not to have their actions recorded.
Lastly, for those of you who don't understand how I would think that stat tracking ruins a game, I'll try to explain it in the best way I can, but you have to keep in mind that since you don't understand, your brain works in a manner different from mine. When I am playing a game where there are no stats being tracked, I get to play both more calmly and with a better attitude, since the sole reason I'm playing is for my own enjoyment and solely that. When I am playing a game where every single move I make will be permanently reflected on some sort of stats page, I play to only make those stats as impressive as possible, and I cannot enjoy the game to its fullest.
Avoid caring about it, as long as you can play the game imperfectly there is very little reason not to play it imperfectly and enjoy it, other than your own personal compulsion not to, there is no outside force stopping you like some boss or something you have to be perfect to beat, so it's something you can solve entirely yourself, and theoretically instantly too because it's not like it involves some sort of muscle memory training, it's a philosophical outlook rather than a skill you need to acquire.
I mean optional tracking is fine and there's no reason not to implement it if you have tracking already I guess, but changing your outlook will fix it for all games.
Can you list some examples of game's stat systems being so intrusive they hinder your fun?
I think the issue comes with how it becomes presented. Privacy considerations are important plus the stat should not be in your face all the time. Like maybe not at all during gameplay but available in the options menu. Showing them during map loading is cool too, like in Team Fortress 2.
Also with stat tracking achievements become possible which can be quite fun and also an effective teaching tool for newer players.
I think the unrealstat system that you could access online was super well done to. And that was like 10 years ago.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->+2. Because it sums up my opinion best and I just wrote a 2,000 word post in another topic. And I'm tired.
When I played savage2, after release, the game was simply AWESOME. Savage2 was my first FPS/RTS game with stat tracking and it had serious stat tracking. You can compare savage2 stat-tracking with the Heroes of Newearth stat tracking (HoN).
The stat tracking changed my gameplay in 2 ways:
1. I did whatever was necessary to increase my stat gain. (NOTE: This does not mean I do whatever is necessary for my team to win!)
2. (NOTE: This is a direct conclusion from point 1.) I tried to avoid any "teamplay disadvantages", this means you avoid picking healing classes because of the simple fact that kills are the best stat gain.
If you had the pleasure to play savage2/HoN you will probably understand that stat-tracking is the spawn of satan.
Of course this has no impact on competitive play, and since NS2 is hopefully a competitive game, stat-tracking won't have any significant influence on it.
EDIT: Minor changes, probably will become major ones when sober again.
Point is, they should be fun stats that just point out simple things. Such as how long you've played with a certain weapon, highest scores with weapons/classes (As said in another post, like TF2). Otherwise, it becomes about staying up till 5AM trying to beat <i>LE37Z F3E7Z</i> for that #1 spot, not having fun and working together.
Also I was just looking at my L4D2 stats. There you have a breakdown of how much you use each weapon and you individual weapon accuracy. Stuff like that help me improve my game, but it just personal, no competitive feeling come from viewing such stats.
Unreal Stats, way back, is also a format I really liked (you even had a time history of flag captures and scores).
How would numbers lessen the fun of a game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
I don't know what goes on in your head, but I can tell you what goes on in mine. I do not find achievements or stats to be pleasurable, to such an extent where I cannot fathom the type of mind that does. I simply don't understand and I'm fairly leery of the kind of person who is driven through some bizarre urge to make his ambiguous numbers bigger than someone else's ambiguous numbers. And then one day down the line, they stop caring about those ambiguous numbers and chase an entirely new set of them. It's *alien* to me. Getting a gold star <b>YAY 4 YUO</b> 'achievement' isn't motivating, it's almost <i>embarrassing</i>. It's the same demented mentality that 'motivates' people to keep spending money in World of Warcraft, chasing the endless stream of carrots. Then when you get your 'best' pile of worthless digital gear, Blizzard makes a new set for you to chase.
My feedback loop is based on my own impression of play. If I feel I did a good job, why do I need something telling me my LMG accuracy was only 17%? Do you really need that to tell you to strive for the best aim you can with an LMG? Does being told you are ranked #18,082 out of #18,083 actually motivate you to improve your game? If you do, that's kinda sad.
So no. I don't want public stats, achievements, or any kind of in-game anything to reflect on any sort of this 'meta' BS that's become so popular these days. I may not understand WHY people are motivated by these (My best guess is it's just the nerd equivalent of dogs humping each other to establish dominance) but I know that if even a handful of people are playing to chase stats and achievements, it's too many. As Heculablubawhatever said, maybe it IS that you are all just trying your hardest to make your stats as impressive as possible (and maybe don't even know why - nobody else will EVER care about your dumb stats). This may not be far fetched. If the 'meta' experience is subtly bringing down your game experience like that, you'd be better off without the stats. And I doubt the number of people who legitimately have their game experience ENHANCED by the meta experience is a significant number.
I once read an article about social networking that explained why it's so popular and I think the mental mind-**** that motivates people on Twitter may be the same that motivates them for achievements. Basically, Twitter, Facebook, etc. are not there to actually fill a void in anyone's lives. They are there to fill the void they create themselves. Many people are addicted to Twitter and cannot go a day without sharing their idiotic lives with other people doing the same. The gratification isn't that you're doing something you've always needed to do - it's that "I'm a Twit, so therefore I must Tweet", or "all my friends are always on Facebook, so I have to be too!" It's almost analogous to a drug addiction. You only start jonesing for heroin AFTER you had your first hit.
The answer to meta-game features [and social networking] like achievements is simple - how did you live your life before achievements and stats? Did you find games less enjoyable? No, you didn't. You never knew they existed and it was impossible for you to care about them. The concept of going back to a life free of these isn't a difficult one, and therefore the only 'impact' the lack of these features could possibly have would be withdrawal symptoms. You *need* your stats because... you NEED THEM. Just a little bit, just my K:D! Please!
Let it go people. Play the game because the game is fun, not because a compulsive obsession with a web page's numbers is fun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's essential for competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->LOL</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->