When holding down the right mouse button, the skulk hunkers down, it's mouth opens extra wide, dropping bits of drool, breathes heavily and increasingly fast, and it's muscles flex. When the button is released, it flings itself forward with a mighty bite, dealing a huge amount of damage to anything in it's path.
This ability can be used while clinging to walls and ceilings, and takes a few seconds to charge up.
Why this is awesome:
Skulks can set up around corners, hide in vents, skulk in dark corners, dealing massive damage to an unprepared marine in a single bite However, this leaves them vulnerable, as they stand perfectly still, and clever marines can hear the telltale sounds This allows hive 2 skulks to deal great opening damage, giving them a chance against heavy armored marines (essential to be useful late/mid game) provided they can pull off an ambush Paranoia for marines alone in a room, maybe building something, and hearing the skulk breathing faster and faster, trying to guess where is it about to pounce from Their hinged jaws would look even more scary opened full wide as they prepare their pounce.
How this is different from leap: Leap is an instant-use distance-covering ability, used mostly to close with marines, but does little to assist with ambushing.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=Aug 9 2009:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Aug 9 2009)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"maybe a kind of dive bomb for lerk" Yeah, good idea. 'Cept, it was mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my, I apologize for not reading through the entire 17 pages to catch that one detail, you definitely are the originator of that idea, and are childish enough to believe it.
BTW NS2 was a good idea, but you know i've been wondering about the sequel for quite some time therefore i'm claiming NS2 as my creative property.
<!--quoteo(post=1721795:date=Aug 10 2009, 05:55 AM:name=steppin'razor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (steppin'razor @ Aug 10 2009, 05:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721795"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Leap is not an inherently offensive ability, it is offensive in NS1.
My point was your making a lot of assumptions. While they share the same name (leap) we don't know what part of the mechanics have changed or stayed the same and what impact this will have on thing in the big picture, something we also don't know much about. All I'm asking is a little bit less speculation and a little bit more discussion on information we actually have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a good point, alot of competitive players look at game aspects way to linearly.
Though I'm an ns1 junkie and would like to keep many things the same, i completely understand that if leap is a starting technique that unknown worlds will (hopefully) add a separate, tier 2 technique that shifts the game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1721817:date=Aug 10 2009, 08:39 AM:name=Mr_Charisma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr_Charisma @ Aug 10 2009, 08:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please, please, please do not listen to popular forums suggestions for such important game play aspects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
NS1 skulk > than this crappy Scooby Doo.
You guys never paid attention to your biology teacher did you?
<!--quoteo(post=1721055:date=Aug 7 2009, 12:41 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Aug 7 2009, 12:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721055"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually fully support the 'grapple' attack, for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, this provides a much needed incentive to keep marines operating in groups. One of the biggest problems in the early version was that there was no disincentive to marines to prevent them from going 'rambo' on their own. How do you get a 'grapple' skulk off you? YOU don't. Your TEAMMATEe that is standing beside you can quickly and easily shoot it off you. No muss, no fuss. This would be a deadly attack for people running solo, but would be a useless attack for marines in a group. If you are 'grappled' on to a marine you are vulnerable, and an easy target.
Second, it would give aliens a second form of 'group' attack. At present, a group attack as skulks basically relies on skulks rushing in and hoping that one or two survive long enough to do damage. What if a bunch of skulks instead did a 'grapple' rush? The difference here is that when you grapple on a marine's back, that marine needs to turn his back to the other marines to get them to shoot it off. What if all of the skulks hit from behind and grappled? The natural instinct is to turn TOWARDS your fellow marines, but if they all do that, then no one will have a shot at the skulks. So the chaos could give way to a new form of skulk rush.
Lastly, and most importantly, I would pay good money to see a marine run across a hallway (coming from somewhere out of line of sight) screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!!!" while seeing 3 or 4 skulks attached to his body as he flails about. :D
Let's remember here, if a skulk is close enough and in the proper position to land a grapple, then he would just as easily be able to land a bite. We're not talking a grapple from range, this is a melee attack. So if a skulk lands a grapple, the damage should be equal to what a bite would be, over 5 seconds. (arbitrary numbers for sake of discussion) All this does is deliver the bite in a different way. To a solo marine, this is a huge risk since he can't kill the skulk on him. To a group of marines it is a significantly reduced threat.
As for a counter in cases with FF on, this would depend on whether marines are being given a 'melee' swing. If they are not, then marines just have to be that much more accurate. However, I do think grapple would be a great addition.
With respect to parasite, I think it should stay in. Not to diminish the role of the alien commander, but to improve it. Heck, you could make it so that parasite doesn't benefit the alien commander at all, but instead is only visible to other nearby aliens. As a means to coordinate attacks. The goad factor is huge though. Even if it did 0 damage I would still use it for that alone. The fact that you are there can drive an undiscipined marine nuts, which wastes a lot of valuable time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this please. And have I missed where FF On was even going to be the standard option? If it isn't then no need to worry about it as far as I'm concerned.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh my, I apologize for not reading through the entire 17 pages to catch that one detail, you definitely are the originator of that idea, and are childish enough to believe it. BTW NS2 was a good idea, but you know i've been wondering about the sequel for quite some time therefore i'm claiming NS2 as my creative property.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe the skulks jumps at the marine, forcing him to switch to knife (Or this taser thing). That is all, but also would be enough to disorient the marine and allow the skulk to get a bite in.
<!--quoteo(post=1721940:date=Aug 10 2009, 07:49 PM:name=M00_cow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (M00_cow @ Aug 10 2009, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the skulks jumps at the marine, forcing him to switch to knife (Or this taser thing). That is all, but also would be enough to disorient the marine and allow the skulk to get a bite in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think most would agree (and have already) on a no to disorienting techniques. they tend to just annoy the gamer and bring him/her back to the real world with frustration rather than staying immersed in the world the game creates.
I think stomp (although more disabling than disorienting) should be as bad as it gets.
<!--quoteo(post=1721826:date=Aug 10 2009, 03:40 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 10 2009, 03:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721826"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I realise this may seem a bit silly, but why can't the lunge attack be the secondary fire of the bite attack?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I rate this idea fkn FTWx100000 - I too find it a bit clumsy to have to switch between bite/leap, tying together the two into a cohesive attack is something I find difficult (i'm not very good at coordinating that fast, having to press 3 - click - 1 - click gets me all confused in fast paced skulk combat). I can imagine this being supreme imo, although I realise it does remove one of the 'selectable' abilities I don't really think its a loss - I think integrating it into the basic control function of a skulk reinforces the fact that you can do that from the start of the match, and will really help players like myself who find the current layout a bit tricky.
Edit: By 'click' I don't mean switching to that ability I mean using it (i.e. fastswitch is enabled)
I hope that if you get a leap kill, or even bite kill for that matter, it enables a sort of ragdoll death and the force of the attack knocks said doll away from the bite corresponding to the force. Or, at least the ability to tear off limbs? Starship Troopers meets TF2 Ragdolls?
<!--quoteo(post=1721950:date=Aug 11 2009, 06:34 AM:name=gotmuff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gotmuff @ Aug 11 2009, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I rate this idea fkn FTWx100000 - I too find it a bit clumsy to have to switch between bite/leap, tying together the two into a cohesive attack is something I find difficult (i'm not very good at coordinating that fast, having to press 3 - click - 1 - click gets me all confused in fast paced skulk combat). I can imagine this being supreme imo, although I realise it does remove one of the 'selectable' abilities I don't really think its a loss - I think integrating it into the basic control function of a skulk reinforces the fact that you can do that from the start of the match, and will really help players like myself who find the current layout a bit tricky.
Edit: By 'click' I don't mean switching to that ability I mean using it (i.e. fastswitch is enabled)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi!
I'll repost these instructions since people have magically missed this and continue to suck at NS1: 1. Start NS 2. Get on a server where aliens have 2 hives or more. 3. Join aliens. 4. Press R. If you've rebound your reloadkey, press corresponding key to reload. 5. Realize that removing secondary fire when +movement already exists is dumb.
<!--quoteo(post=1721960:date=Aug 11 2009, 07:51 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Aug 11 2009, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or, at least the ability to tear off limbs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They want to sell the game in Germany and Australia too, you know...
Whatever the player style is, whatever there is leap or not as a second weapon, here is the thing.
Leap has always been used as a mean to get close to the oponent in oder to be able to survive in large areas. without talking about lag issues that comes in the matter. Who never felt frustated in Tanith/Cargo ? or Eclipse/maintenance (the 'oh crap! we got Maintenance, and we have already lost the game' hive).
In this thread, i see that players think they will need speed to get that 'porc chop' (so lag comes in again). Isn't it clear that the map should be determining the need for that ? The need for that kind of tactic tool is basically due to the map themselves. If you can ambush, get close (not detected) and make sure shots; leap becomes unnecessary.
That's why i always voted for : *Hive should be alien friendly. No hive should be 'dressed' like a mall (lotta' light, large area, no obstacles). A marins should be scared to enter a hive (or a close area) alone and try to spawn kill. I hope this will not be the case in NS2. If at spawn time a skulk can sneak and hide in the hive (or spawn at some hidden place), he should be able to unlock the situation. How many game where depending on hive lock and spawn kill ? isn't it boring ?
*Marins start It should have low cieling (to counter the fade ability), clear areas (no crate in the middle etc...), and no vent directly connected to it. They should be able to see what's going on in there. I remember NS_Bast which was modified more than once because of the Marin Start.
Basically this encourage player to <b>think</b> a little more about tactic and teamwork than pure 'one on one CS style thing'. This game has never been about who can shoot better in a large area. Those who think that will probably never get the game true essence.
I mean, on earlier version of NS_Veil, i often felt bored to spawn kill in the Pipe hive. "This is the game!!" somebody said. Ok, but sometime, we did let them out just to get some fun. Having another plan in mind of course.
See it as a color gradient. The more a marins goes far away from, base the more he should be careful and/or have back-ups, because it's getting darker in there. I think if the <b>mappers start to build maps keeping that in mind</b>, this can change a lot of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1722115:date=Aug 11 2009, 02:42 PM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UncleCrunch @ Aug 11 2009, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Basically this encourage player to <b>think</b> a little more about tactic and teamwork than pure 'one on one CS style thing'. This game has never been about who can shoot better in a large area. Those who think that will probably never get the game true essence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, you totally missed the ENTIRE foundation of Natural Selection tactics.
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.
<!--quoteo(post=1722174:date=Aug 12 2009, 06:52 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 12 2009, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I may have just died a little inside. Lighting, while certainly challenging to implement, is a fantastic game mechanic used already to great effect in other games, and certain maps from ns1.
<!--quoteo(post=1722176:date=Aug 12 2009, 05:22 PM:name=Mortos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mortos @ Aug 12 2009, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I may have just died a little inside. Lighting, while certainly challenging to implement, is a fantastic game mechanic used already to great effect in other games, and certain maps from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed!
It was less so in standard NS1 maps that I remember, but there were a couple of custom NS maps that worked fantastically on some custom servers.
So I say effective lighting will be good. Those slightly dark corridors, is there a Skulk hiding on the roof?
But then perhaps there should be night-vision available for the marines?
<!--QuoteBegin-Zeno+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zeno)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-(resresres @ Aug 11 2009+ 07:51 AM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ((resresres @ Aug 11 2009 @ 07:51 AM))</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Or, at least the ability to tear off limbs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They want to sell the game in Germany and Australia too, you know... <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, but they let you shoot zombies' (that resemble people) head's clean off with lots of realistic blood splatter in Left 4 Dead. Why not have alien dog like creatures maim corpses?
anyway: <!--QuoteBegin-twitter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twitter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm coming around to putting leap on the Skulk bite alt-fire. If we add a bite at the end of the leap, then it's consistent too. #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite on the end of leap (i.e. something like "Leap(OnHit) = BiteGun(Fire)" ) or bite as an alt-fire for leap ? Still waiting on clarity for that Tweet.
Lastly: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I say effective lighting will be good. Those slightly dark corridors, is there a Skulk hiding on the roof?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes (as long as "gamma hacking" is somehow stopped or prevented). Games like Condemned and Left 4 Dead made great use of lighting and shadows (horror film techniques). So much atmosphere was added by dynamic lighting, too, in NS1. Overall, lighting adds a sense of realism, a dose of atmosphere and a inject of emotion to the scene where lights are/aren't or have an effect (flicker, dimmed, colour, etc).
Oh and, I do believe they will have those open areas still in NS2. I mean, they're putting leap and blink in (still) so it's likely there will still be large rooms that the marines can take advantage of.
I like the look but a couple of things come to mind:
1) The aliens are starting to take on mammalian biology builds. They didn't really have too much of that before, but now it seems prevalent. Puppy meet gorilla, gorilla meet puppy. I'm not sure that it gives the "alien origin" feel that previous versions of the skulk gave. Granted the onos was often considered a rhino, but the skulk didn't have an easy analog. It's still very well done, but it's just a point to consider.
2) It seems as if the skulk went from stockier to lankier. I like that, but I'm wondering if that difference will come off in game play. People seem concerned about a weakened leap or run speed being implemented which is the opposite impression that the model gives.
About the grapple idea:
How about secondary fire is "marine climb." It could work like wall climb except for the marine can still move and turn. If the skulk is on your back, you can turn around and face it rather than it being attached to your back. I realize this breaks the idea that the skulk is ripping into the marine and changes it more into a weak hug, but it may accomplish the mechanic in a way that's pleasing for game play. This idea could be implemented as automatic per wall climb as well leaving that weapon slot open for a "lure" idea as noted by others.
Parasite's removal:
OK. Scouting is pretty much what skulks do later on in the game in NS1, but depending on the new alien commander, this could be a welcome improvement. We still need something to antagonize marines or bait them along.
Baiting a marine would be difficult... other than being able to mimic/disable an item a commander would drop or a weapon on the ground, there's not a lot that they'll go after. Maybe allow skulks to disguise themselves as a gorges if they're still weak? It seems like we really need some way to pester them. Should the skulk have a ranged attack then without the tracking ability? Maybe.
Perhaps they need something that reduces a marines movement speed slightly and removes their ability to jump(and jetpack) for a short duration. This could remove the people breaking atmosphere by being "jumpy" marines in close combat. Watch any given knife fight in reality or in a movie and let me know how much they jump around to change their hit box location, they slide and move on the ground because that's how dodging works. I realize that it helps in NS1 combat but maybe that's reason for improvement rather than adoption. It also gives skulks something hilarious in late game and keeps jetpacks from being used for "Rambo"ing. If skulks are supposed to be a counter for jetpacks, I can see this ability working out very well.
I agree that the Skulk needs some kind of a ranged 'teaser' attack. I really like the idea of some kind of corrosive acid that either slowly does damage to the marine, or slows them down (and disappears after like 5 seconds or something). A slowing ability would actually be awesome, and it wouldn't be overpowered because a skulk could only do it so many times (assuming it still uses energy). To make things better, if there is still the Adrenaline upgrade for aliens, some skulks could purposely get this upgrade and be in charge of 'slowing' the enemy by spamming their slowing acid at marines (since they will be able to spam it much more). This would foster a lot of teamwork on the alien side, and would sufficiently piss off marines (but not really put them at a crazy disadvantage).
Just a thought. Sorry if it's been brought up already
<!--quoteo(post=1722174:date=Aug 12 2009, 01:52 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 12 2009, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, you totally missed the ENTIRE foundation of Natural Selection tactics.
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a marin player that moves carefully, there is no chocke point in all official NS1 maps. He'll move a little bit slower in order to check every corner but he'll get where he wants. Two potent players moving toward the hive (in 6vs6) are unstopable in early game. No alien can stop them unless they are more (half the team). Sometimes an alien have a good piece of luck. But in clanplay there's no such thing. Mistake = die.
When fades come up, marins are already equiped with shot guns (in decent clanplay) and/or HMGs. So much that fading became a way to distract marins while skulks were approaching (sneaky ######s they are) to kill. Instead of being the 'F14 interceptor' it can be (and should be) sometimes he simply travels the map and get rid of marins RTs and clear the way for skulks. The example of Tanith/cargo is clear, you can rename it "fade memorial". Even with 2 hives, Kharras could not unlock a siege situation easely (gorge+fade) unless the marin team made a mistake.
Don't get me wrong big rooms are good. But not like the NS1 maps. Not like Tanith/Cargo. Not so 'unlockable' two feet away from the hive. Not giving a excuse for clan recruits to get that clan-config full of $||17 in order to 'keep up'. When you don't use this, you have to <b>think</b> about a clever way to assassinate the opponent. But in Tanith/Cargo you simply cannot. With a different light set up, maybe...
You can apply this for some other (most actually) maps as well. Simply Tanith/Cargo is something people know. And no "Shooting in large areas" is not the NS backbone. Otherwise it would be called CS. Strategy IS; teamwork IS (e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g). NS is a <b>R T S</b>/FPS.
I'm afraid it'll disapoint you but dynamic light will be part of NS2. Dynamic infestation (as dev said) will have some influence on nearby lights. And yes, darkness and flickering light it'll be. And that's 'uber' good. Bring some diapers.
Two skulks talking: -Don't upgrade scent of fear u nab!!! he's got a diaper, you can smell it from here. -I got a cold...sniff
I think it would be fun if the alternative skulk attack could disturb the marines balance without hurting him. The skulk sends a schock wave through the air. When the marine gets hit´he gets pushed to the side or backwards. The marine may fall down if when getting hit by the wave getting pushed into an low obstacle hitting his legs and causing him to fall. Then the skulk have a better opportunity to get close to the enemy without getting killed.
This will perhaps be a problem if being able to use leap at the same time. The marine-aim will jump a bit up and down like being pushed in reality.
Marine can avoid to fall by jumping. (The air wave wont travel too fast so a marine can dodge it.)
<!--quoteo(post=1722257:date=Aug 12 2009, 09:42 AM:name=UncleCrunch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UncleCrunch @ Aug 12 2009, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722257"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a marin player that moves carefully, there is no chocke point in all official NS1 maps. He'll move a little bit slower in order to check every corner but he'll get where he wants. Two potent players moving toward the hive (in 6vs6) are unstopable in early game. No alien can stop them unless they are more (half the team). Sometimes an alien have a good piece of luck. But in clanplay there's no such thing. Mistake = die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong, you obviously have no idea how to play this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1722183:date=Aug 12 2009, 12:53 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Aug 12 2009, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes (as long as "gamma hacking" is somehow stopped or prevented). Games like Condemned and Left 4 Dead made great use of lighting and shadows (horror film techniques). So much atmosphere was added by dynamic lighting, too, in NS1. Overall, lighting adds a sense of realism, a dose of atmosphere and a inject of emotion to the scene where lights are/aren't or have an effect (flicker, dimmed, colour, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lighting can be used to add atmosphere, not gameplay. Every monitor and every video card has brightness/gamma options because hardware is unavoidably different. Dark hallways have no place in potentially competitive multilayer games. Until every players buys the same monitor and sits in the same room the effect is IMPOSSIBLE to balance between all players and hardware. This is why cloaking was eventually changed to 100% and EVERY widely played map in NS1 is now perfectly lit in every single room.
A slightly modified idea mentioned in a thread a while ago (modified to fit a 'bite' alt-fire).
Pinning is out of the question, but I wouldn't completely be against the 'latching on' idea described earlier. If you could latch on as a Skulk, maybe reduce movement speed of the Marine, stop them from firing at all, but not deal significant damage, it could be an interesting mechanic. Very similar to how in Dawn of War II you can force ranged specialists into melee to nullify their effectiveness. But I'm not suggesting the Skulk should hold a Marine in melee until it dies, I like the idea of meleeing them off solo. You can improve the tradeoff by making it so the Skulk is left with no adrenaline for a quick escape or continued bites after being meleed off. So it's almost a kamikaze attack and definitely not overpowered in 1v1 situations.
The reason I think this mechanic could work is because it makes the lone Marine far more vulnerable to a pair of Skulks. One goes in to very temporarily nullify him giving the other a short window of opportunity to inflict damage, during which the Marine cannot fire back. It doesn't put a 1v1 any more in the Marine's or the Skulk's favour. If the Skulk jumps the Marine, the Marine will simply melee off and shoot the Skulk while it has no adrenaline to fight back. But if used in co-operation with other Alien allies, it becomes a far more powerful ability. On the other hand if the Marine has backup the 2 Skulks are unaware of, they are at the disadvantage if using this. This stops it from being a spammable ability, you have to think about whether you're going to be effective before using it. It's also an ability that scales well as the Marines get more powerful weapons, because it's effectively temporarily nullifying a heavy weapon for s short period and drawing fire from other Marines. It also has skilful appllications such as sacrificing a Skulk life to allow another lifeform to make a successful escape.
<b>Description:</b> Skulk players can charge up a 'Gnaw' attack by holding down the alt-fire button. As soon as the effect is fully charged up a low gnarling audio effect is heard until the alt-fire button is released (this means if you want to run around ready to Gnaw, you are projecting an audio cue). When the button is released, a 'bark/bite' sound effect is heard. The 'bark' indicates a missed hit; the 'bite' sound effect indicates a successful hit (so nearby Marines know to help their buddy out).
When a Skulk alt-bites a Marine, he will automatically bite down on until A) he is punched off or B) he is shot off by a 2nd Marine. This will be shown as the Skulk biting into the Marine's shoulder/chest (stopping him from firing), with also a low gnarl/growl effect for the duration (preceded by a blood/goo splatter sprite to cover up the transition between animations). The Leap deals a small amount of initial damage and perhaps slight knockback, but after that there is miniscule damage over time. The Marine has the option of meleeing the Skulk off (this does minor damage to the Skulk, and leaves the Skulk with an empty adrenaline bar). The Leap is announced via a clearly audible, high priority sound effect.
<b>Effects:</b> - Reduces target's movement speed - Disables target's ranged capabilities - Does small impact damage and very slowly drains the target's HP (1HP/s)
<b>Rate of Fire:</b> Low (charge-up) <b>Range:</b> Low (melee range) <b>Damage:</b> Low (minor impact damage, DoT) <b>Speed:</b> High (quick release)
<!--quoteo(post=1722294:date=Aug 12 2009, 03:37 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 12 2009, 03:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong, you obviously have no idea how to play this game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just look at this: <a href="ftp://ftp.nerim.net/pub/windows/games/ns-fr.com/mirror/videos/knifegaming_Open_Cup_2004_Champions.zip" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.nerim.net/pub/windows/games/ns-...4_Champions.zip</a> or <a href="http://knife.ninelegends.com/index.php?id=movies/movies" target="_blank">http://knife.ninelegends.com/index.php?id=movies/movies</a>
They have a hard time at the 'fade crematorium' it seems. If these guys are wrong too... well, nobody knows how to play the game, isn't it? NS serious clanplay has drastically decreased because of that. You could even predict the results knowing what the first hive was.
I can understand you are a marin at heart, and you don't like darkness. But unless maps are improved (i mean balanced for both sides), this is gonna end up the same. Skulk can wait like sitting ducks. It'll be the same in serious clanplay. So this leaves 2 choices. 1/bring light setup in order for alien to move and breath. 2/ increase the speed of basic life forms with all the lag issues it includes.
On one hand you have : good looking, shivers, tactic enhancements, dinamic light (technically easier to include than most ppl think, just watch the NS2 news video concerning environment), and i almost forgot: diapers. On the other hand you have : map brigther than a diamond, sitting duck contest, speed and lag issues (as if it was not obvious with fade blink+celerity already), nothing really new from NS1 exept cosmetics. Plus i don't have a lot of confidence in LUA. Not really the fastest. So lag problem can be devastating. I hope i'm wrong on that last one.
PS: Many thx Mr Fana for keeping the 'dead website up' (har har).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lighting can be used to add atmosphere, not gameplay. Every monitor and every video card has brightness/gamma options because hardware is unavoidably different. Dark hallways have no place in potentially competitive multilayer games. Until every players buys the same monitor and sits in the same room the effect is IMPOSSIBLE to balance between all players and hardware. This is why cloaking was eventually changed to 100% and EVERY widely played map in NS1 is now perfectly lit in every single room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Godwin point reached. Oh common!!!, every single FPS game has it's 'creepy sewer' or 'dark and slimy evil lair'. From quake 1 / HL to Farcry/doom3/quake4 you name it. Even CS has some dark spots. It didn't stop players to play online, did it ? Did you ever stop playing a FPS on single player scenario because of that ? You probably did what everyone did: just finished it.
Of course there will be some differences. But they are minors. And it would a shame to deprive NS2 from a good looking and a enhanced game mechanic just because of this lame excuse.
UncleCrunch: homicide is approaching this from purely a "competitive gamer" standpoint, the standpoint that the razor-edge balance of NS1 required in order to be any fun (because if you weren't playing 100% competitively, you lost, extremely quickly, repeatedly.) Trying to explain that allowing what may be a very slight advantage for one team could be extremely good for atmosphere or immersion is futile because people approaching a game from that standpoint simply don't understand or don't care about.
In this respect, I hope the balance of NS2 is blunted. I still want a balanced game, but one where there is some room for some errors to take place and not doom the team.
Bitecam is a problem for noone. Besides, if you were to make the Skulk "accurate", it's eyes would need a FOV over 180 and the mouth would take up the bottom third of the screen. But I digress, such things are easily solved with 75% transparency.
Parasite - I know some people are going to be peeved, but a short burst of audiovisual static is generally a good provoker. I'm not talking flashbangs, not by a long chalk, I'm talking just enough to be noticeable but not obscuring. If needs be, tie it into muting the player, or isolating him from the comm, for that same fraction of a second.
This way it's an annoyance but doesn't scupper your aim (just don't move your mouse when the brief flicker of partial static hits) and will provoke some players into response. BZZT. BZZT. BZZT. Parasite spam!
In universe, think of it as skulk parasite being overcome by new improved armour countermeasures, but still causing a noticeable distortion while the system is purged.
<!--quoteo(post=1722174:date=Aug 12 2009, 12:52 AM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Aug 12 2009, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow, you totally missed the ENTIRE foundation of Natural Selection tactics.
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Just for be sure some of you guys in the dev team can read / remember this somehow. The leap as a second hive power up is the key. You trashed the entire mechanics of the game changing that part while trying to give a pity advantage to the newplayers / hellen kellers. But at the same time you want a successful competitive game back in the CAL. Trying to balance this seems like a titanic job. This is another completely different game, not NS anymore.
In the left hand it is amazing the amount of trash posts from people who know nothing at all about what are they talking about or have an extra chromosoma. Seems like you need to split up the competitve / non competitive player's suggestions because they are polar sides of every statement. As a fact, the better ideas never came from the hoipolloi, so, after you got your teamspeak meeting with the euros, I strongly encouraged you to get in touch with the remainings of the american competitve scene in the www.evolvens.com site and get some intelligent feedback, most of them consties, seriously, you have nothing to lose.
In this respect, I hope the balance of NS2 is blunted. I still want a balanced game, but one where there is some room for some errors to take place and not doom the team.
<--------- Agree 100%. I played a game of NS last night, the first time since, well, i dont know, many months ago, and it wasnt pretty. I used to be a pretty decent fade. I was confident and not too worried about dying most of the time. Lat nitght, though, I was having trouble taking on lone marines with shotguns.... I was rusty, to say the least. This brings me to my point: Being a bit rusty is the difference between winning and losing. This is a fair priniciple in clan play; if your out of practice you deserve to lose. But in pubs single mistakes should not cost your team the game.
I believe this is being addressed in ns2 so ill leave it there. (bit of a sidetrack, sry about that)
In regard to the skulk:
- in my experience chuckling operates as a reasonable goad for an inexperience marine, though being damaged (even though it was only 10hp) provided an even greater incentive to react (often stupidly) to a threat. That said, I feel since skulks are going to have leap from the start they do not need parasite.
-I love its muscular, yet sinewy look. It looks much more like a pack hunter now, which is essentially what skulks (usually) are
-Kudos on keeping the view inside the chomper. In my very first game of NS I found that to be a distinctive and cool feature. It make me think 'sweet, now lets test these pearly whites out'.
-Yes i think alt-fire should just be leap, perhaps with a small knockback, glad to hear this is the direction you seem to have chosen. Grapple seems a little too much like a quirk that wouldnt be used so much. Especially in pubs, why would someone volunteer to be the one 'pinning down' the marine whilst others are rewarded with the kill that you really secured? Most players would just go in chomping.......
PS. no dismembering please! Unfortunately I live in a country with retarded classifcation laws....... a prize for anyone who can guess which :/
The vents do look amazing, it'll be interesting to see them that detailed in the game.
The skulk does look amazing, a lot of detail, but I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed at how dog-like it looks. I find myself really pining for the evil, insect-like skulk from NS1. Watching the video made me want to take him for a walk, then give him a treat. I guess it's too late to be complaining about it now, but man, is that a letdown.
On a happier note, it looks like the engine is coming along great, that's got me really hyped, I can't wait to see it in action!
Comments
Pounce (2nd hive ability)
When holding down the right mouse button, the skulk hunkers down, it's mouth opens extra wide, dropping bits of drool, breathes heavily and increasingly fast, and it's muscles flex. When the button is released, it flings itself forward with a mighty bite, dealing a huge amount of damage to anything in it's path.
This ability can be used while clinging to walls and ceilings, and takes a few seconds to charge up.
Why this is awesome:
Skulks can set up around corners, hide in vents, skulk in dark corners, dealing massive damage to an unprepared marine in a single bite
However, this leaves them vulnerable, as they stand perfectly still, and clever marines can hear the telltale sounds
This allows hive 2 skulks to deal great opening damage, giving them a chance against heavy armored marines (essential to be useful late/mid game) provided they can pull off an ambush
Paranoia for marines alone in a room, maybe building something, and hearing the skulk breathing faster and faster, trying to guess where is it about to pounce from
Their hinged jaws would look even more scary opened full wide as they prepare their pounce.
How this is different from leap:
Leap is an instant-use distance-covering ability, used mostly to close with marines, but does little to assist with ambushing.
Yeah, good idea. 'Cept, it was mine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my, I apologize for not reading through the entire 17 pages to catch that one detail, you definitely are the originator of that idea, and are childish enough to believe it.
BTW NS2 was a good idea, but you know i've been wondering about the sequel for quite some time therefore i'm claiming NS2 as my creative property.
My point was your making a lot of assumptions. While they share the same name (leap) we don't know what part of the mechanics have changed or stayed the same and what impact this will have on thing in the big picture, something we also don't know much about. All I'm asking is a little bit less speculation and a little bit more discussion on information we actually have.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a good point, alot of competitive players look at game aspects way to linearly.
Though I'm an ns1 junkie and would like to keep many things the same, i completely understand that if leap is a starting technique that unknown worlds will (hopefully) add a separate, tier 2 technique that shifts the game play.
+1
NS1 skulk > than this crappy Scooby Doo.
You guys never paid attention to your biology teacher did you?
First and foremost, this provides a much needed incentive to keep marines operating in groups. One of the biggest problems in the early version was that there was no disincentive to marines to prevent them from going 'rambo' on their own. How do you get a 'grapple' skulk off you? YOU don't. Your TEAMMATEe that is standing beside you can quickly and easily shoot it off you. No muss, no fuss. This would be a deadly attack for people running solo, but would be a useless attack for marines in a group. If you are 'grappled' on to a marine you are vulnerable, and an easy target.
Second, it would give aliens a second form of 'group' attack. At present, a group attack as skulks basically relies on skulks rushing in and hoping that one or two survive long enough to do damage. What if a bunch of skulks instead did a 'grapple' rush? The difference here is that when you grapple on a marine's back, that marine needs to turn his back to the other marines to get them to shoot it off. What if all of the skulks hit from behind and grappled? The natural instinct is to turn TOWARDS your fellow marines, but if they all do that, then no one will have a shot at the skulks. So the chaos could give way to a new form of skulk rush.
Lastly, and most importantly, I would pay good money to see a marine run across a hallway (coming from somewhere out of line of sight) screaming "GET THEM OFF ME!!!" while seeing 3 or 4 skulks attached to his body as he flails about. :D
Let's remember here, if a skulk is close enough and in the proper position to land a grapple, then he would just as easily be able to land a bite. We're not talking a grapple from range, this is a melee attack. So if a skulk lands a grapple, the damage should be equal to what a bite would be, over 5 seconds. (arbitrary numbers for sake of discussion) All this does is deliver the bite in a different way. To a solo marine, this is a huge risk since he can't kill the skulk on him. To a group of marines it is a significantly reduced threat.
As for a counter in cases with FF on, this would depend on whether marines are being given a 'melee' swing. If they are not, then marines just have to be that much more accurate. However, I do think grapple would be a great addition.
With respect to parasite, I think it should stay in. Not to diminish the role of the alien commander, but to improve it. Heck, you could make it so that parasite doesn't benefit the alien commander at all, but instead is only visible to other nearby aliens. As a means to coordinate attacks. The goad factor is huge though. Even if it did 0 damage I would still use it for that alone. The fact that you are there can drive an undiscipined marine nuts, which wastes a lot of valuable time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All of this please. And have I missed where FF On was even going to be the standard option? If it isn't then no need to worry about it as far as I'm concerned.
BTW NS2 was a good idea, but you know i've been wondering about the sequel for quite some time therefore i'm claiming NS2 as my creative property.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no need for that.
I think most would agree (and have already) on a no to disorienting techniques. they tend to just annoy the gamer and bring him/her back to the real world with frustration rather than staying immersed in the world the game creates.
I think stomp (although more disabling than disorienting) should be as bad as it gets.
I rate this idea fkn FTWx100000 - I too find it a bit clumsy to have to switch between bite/leap, tying together the two into a cohesive attack is something I find difficult (i'm not very good at coordinating that fast, having to press 3 - click - 1 - click gets me all confused in fast paced skulk combat). I can imagine this being supreme imo, although I realise it does remove one of the 'selectable' abilities I don't really think its a loss - I think integrating it into the basic control function of a skulk reinforces the fact that you can do that from the start of the match, and will really help players like myself who find the current layout a bit tricky.
Edit: By 'click' I don't mean switching to that ability I mean using it (i.e. fastswitch is enabled)
Or, at least the ability to tear off limbs? Starship Troopers meets TF2 Ragdolls?
Edit: By 'click' I don't mean switching to that ability I mean using it (i.e. fastswitch is enabled)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi!
I'll repost these instructions since people have magically missed this and continue to suck at NS1:
1. Start NS
2. Get on a server where aliens have 2 hives or more.
3. Join aliens.
4. Press R. If you've rebound your reloadkey, press corresponding key to reload.
5. Realize that removing secondary fire when +movement already exists is dumb.
They want to sell the game in Germany and Australia too, you know...
Leap has always been used as a mean to get close to the oponent in oder to be able to survive in large areas. without talking about lag issues that comes in the matter. Who never felt frustated in Tanith/Cargo ? or Eclipse/maintenance (the 'oh crap! we got Maintenance, and we have already lost the game' hive).
In this thread, i see that players think they will need speed to get that 'porc chop' (so lag comes in again). Isn't it clear that the map should be determining the need for that ? The need for that kind of tactic tool is basically due to the map themselves. If you can ambush, get close (not detected) and make sure shots; leap becomes unnecessary.
That's why i always voted for :
*Hive should be alien friendly.
No hive should be 'dressed' like a mall (lotta' light, large area, no obstacles). A marins should be scared to enter a hive (or a close area) alone and try to spawn kill. I hope this will not be the case in NS2. If at spawn time a skulk can sneak and hide in the hive (or spawn at some hidden place), he should be able to unlock the situation. How many game where depending on hive lock and spawn kill ? isn't it boring ?
*Marins start
It should have low cieling (to counter the fade ability), clear areas (no crate in the middle etc...), and no vent directly connected to it. They should be able to see what's going on in there. I remember NS_Bast which was modified more than once because of the Marin Start.
Basically this encourage player to <b>think</b> a little more about tactic and teamwork than pure 'one on one CS style thing'. This game has never been about who can shoot better in a large area. Those who think that will probably never get the game true essence.
I mean, on earlier version of NS_Veil, i often felt bored to spawn kill in the Pipe hive. "This is the game!!" somebody said. Ok, but sometime, we did let them out just to get some fun. Having another plan in mind of course.
See it as a color gradient. The more a marins goes far away from, base the more he should be careful and/or have back-ups, because it's getting darker in there. I think if the <b>mappers start to build maps keeping that in mind</b>, this can change a lot of things.
So leap or not leap, is a map matter first.
Wow, you totally missed the ENTIRE foundation of Natural Selection tactics.
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.
I may have just died a little inside.
Lighting, while certainly challenging to implement, is a fantastic game mechanic used already to great effect in other games, and certain maps from ns1.
Lighting, while certainly challenging to implement, is a fantastic game mechanic used already to great effect in other games, and certain maps from ns1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed!
It was less so in standard NS1 maps that I remember, but there were a couple of custom NS maps that worked fantastically on some custom servers.
So I say effective lighting will be good.
Those slightly dark corridors, is there a Skulk hiding on the roof?
But then perhaps there should be night-vision available for the marines?
Or, at least the ability to tear off limbs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They want to sell the game in Germany and Australia too, you know...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, but they let you shoot zombies' (that resemble people) head's clean off with lots of realistic blood splatter in Left 4 Dead.
Why not have alien dog like creatures maim corpses?
anyway:
<!--QuoteBegin-twitter+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (twitter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm coming around to putting leap on the Skulk bite alt-fire. If we add a bite at the end of the leap, then it's consistent too. #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite on the end of leap (i.e. something like "Leap(OnHit) = BiteGun(Fire)" ) or bite as an alt-fire for leap ?
Still waiting on clarity for that Tweet.
Lastly:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I say effective lighting will be good.
Those slightly dark corridors, is there a Skulk hiding on the roof?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes (as long as "gamma hacking" is somehow stopped or prevented). Games like Condemned and Left 4 Dead made great use of lighting and shadows (horror film techniques).
So much atmosphere was added by dynamic lighting, too, in NS1.
Overall, lighting adds a sense of realism, a dose of atmosphere and a inject of emotion to the scene where lights are/aren't or have an effect (flicker, dimmed, colour, etc).
I like the look but a couple of things come to mind:
1) The aliens are starting to take on mammalian biology builds. They didn't really have too much of that before, but now it seems prevalent. Puppy meet gorilla, gorilla meet puppy. I'm not sure that it gives the "alien origin" feel that previous versions of the skulk gave. Granted the onos was often considered a rhino, but the skulk didn't have an easy analog. It's still very well done, but it's just a point to consider.
2) It seems as if the skulk went from stockier to lankier. I like that, but I'm wondering if that difference will come off in game play. People seem concerned about a weakened leap or run speed being implemented which is the opposite impression that the model gives.
About the grapple idea:
How about secondary fire is "marine climb." It could work like wall climb except for the marine can still move and turn. If the skulk is on your back, you can turn around and face it rather than it being attached to your back. I realize this breaks the idea that the skulk is ripping into the marine and changes it more into a weak hug, but it may accomplish the mechanic in a way that's pleasing for game play. This idea could be implemented as automatic per wall climb as well leaving that weapon slot open for a "lure" idea as noted by others.
Parasite's removal:
OK. Scouting is pretty much what skulks do later on in the game in NS1, but depending on the new alien commander, this could be a welcome improvement. We still need something to antagonize marines or bait them along.
Baiting a marine would be difficult... other than being able to mimic/disable an item a commander would drop or a weapon on the ground, there's not a lot that they'll go after. Maybe allow skulks to disguise themselves as a gorges if they're still weak? It seems like we really need some way to pester them. Should the skulk have a ranged attack then without the tracking ability? Maybe.
Perhaps they need something that reduces a marines movement speed slightly and removes their ability to jump(and jetpack) for a short duration. This could remove the people breaking atmosphere by being "jumpy" marines in close combat. Watch any given knife fight in reality or in a movie and let me know how much they jump around to change their hit box location, they slide and move on the ground because that's how dodging works. I realize that it helps in NS1 combat but maybe that's reason for improvement rather than adoption. It also gives skulks something hilarious in late game and keeps jetpacks from being used for "Rambo"ing. If skulks are supposed to be a counter for jetpacks, I can see this ability working out very well.
Just a thought. Sorry if it's been brought up already
-Spike
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For a marin player that moves carefully, there is no chocke point in all official NS1 maps. He'll move a little bit slower in order to check every corner but he'll get where he wants. Two potent players moving toward the hive (in 6vs6) are unstopable in early game. No alien can stop them unless they are more (half the team). Sometimes an alien have a good piece of luck. But in clanplay there's no such thing. Mistake = die.
When fades come up, marins are already equiped with shot guns (in decent clanplay) and/or HMGs. So much that fading became a way to distract marins while skulks were approaching (sneaky ######s they are) to kill. Instead of being the 'F14 interceptor' it can be (and should be) sometimes he simply travels the map and get rid of marins RTs and clear the way for skulks. The example of Tanith/cargo is clear, you can rename it "fade memorial". Even with 2 hives, Kharras could not unlock a siege situation easely (gorge+fade) unless the marin team made a mistake.
Don't get me wrong big rooms are good. But not like the NS1 maps. Not like Tanith/Cargo. Not so 'unlockable' two feet away from the hive. Not giving a excuse for clan recruits to get that clan-config full of $||17 in order to 'keep up'. When you don't use this, you have to <b>think</b> about a clever way to assassinate the opponent. But in Tanith/Cargo you simply cannot. With a different light set up, maybe...
You can apply this for some other (most actually) maps as well. Simply Tanith/Cargo is something people know. And no "Shooting in large areas" is not the NS backbone. Otherwise it would be called CS. Strategy IS; teamwork IS (e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g). NS is a <b>R T S</b>/FPS.
I'm afraid it'll disapoint you but dynamic light will be part of NS2. Dynamic infestation (as dev said) will have some influence on nearby lights. And yes, darkness and flickering light it'll be. And that's 'uber' good. Bring some diapers.
Two skulks talking:
-Don't upgrade scent of fear u nab!!! he's got a diaper, you can smell it from here.
-I got a cold...sniff
I think it would be fun if the alternative skulk attack could disturb the marines balance without hurting him.
The skulk sends a schock wave through the air.
When the marine gets hit´he gets pushed to the side or backwards.
The marine may fall down if when getting hit by the wave getting pushed into an low obstacle hitting his legs and causing him to fall.
Then the skulk have a better opportunity to get close to the enemy without getting killed.
This will perhaps be a problem if being able to use leap at the same time.
The marine-aim will jump a bit up and down like being pushed in reality.
Marine can avoid to fall by jumping.
(The air wave wont travel too fast so a marine can dodge it.)
Just an idea...
Good luck with the game!
Wrong, you obviously have no idea how to play this game.
<!--quoteo(post=1722183:date=Aug 12 2009, 12:53 AM:name=resresres)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (resresres @ Aug 12 2009, 12:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1722183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes (as long as "gamma hacking" is somehow stopped or prevented). Games like Condemned and Left 4 Dead made great use of lighting and shadows (horror film techniques).
So much atmosphere was added by dynamic lighting, too, in NS1.
Overall, lighting adds a sense of realism, a dose of atmosphere and a inject of emotion to the scene where lights are/aren't or have an effect (flicker, dimmed, colour, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lighting can be used to add atmosphere, not gameplay. Every monitor and every video card has brightness/gamma options because hardware is unavoidably different. Dark hallways have no place in potentially competitive multilayer games. Until every players buys the same monitor and sits in the same room the effect is IMPOSSIBLE to balance between all players and hardware. This is why cloaking was eventually changed to 100% and EVERY widely played map in NS1 is now perfectly lit in every single room.
Pinning is out of the question, but I wouldn't completely be against the 'latching on' idea described earlier. If you could latch on as a Skulk, maybe reduce movement speed of the Marine, stop them from firing at all, but not deal significant damage, it could be an interesting mechanic. Very similar to how in Dawn of War II you can force ranged specialists into melee to nullify their effectiveness. But I'm not suggesting the Skulk should hold a Marine in melee until it dies, I like the idea of meleeing them off solo. You can improve the tradeoff by making it so the Skulk is left with no adrenaline for a quick escape or continued bites after being meleed off. So it's almost a kamikaze attack and definitely not overpowered in 1v1 situations.
The reason I think this mechanic could work is because it makes the lone Marine far more vulnerable to a pair of Skulks. One goes in to very temporarily nullify him giving the other a short window of opportunity to inflict damage, during which the Marine cannot fire back. It doesn't put a 1v1 any more in the Marine's or the Skulk's favour. If the Skulk jumps the Marine, the Marine will simply melee off and shoot the Skulk while it has no adrenaline to fight back. But if used in co-operation with other Alien allies, it becomes a far more powerful ability. On the other hand if the Marine has backup the 2 Skulks are unaware of, they are at the disadvantage if using this. This stops it from being a spammable ability, you have to think about whether you're going to be effective before using it. It's also an ability that scales well as the Marines get more powerful weapons, because it's effectively temporarily nullifying a heavy weapon for s short period and drawing fire from other Marines. It also has skilful appllications such as sacrificing a Skulk life to allow another lifeform to make a successful escape.
<i>Fleshing out the idea:</i>
<b><!--coloro:LightGreen--><span style="color:LightGreen"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Gnaw<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b>
<b>Description:</b>
Skulk players can charge up a 'Gnaw' attack by holding down the alt-fire button. As soon as the effect is fully charged up a low gnarling audio effect is heard until the alt-fire button is released (this means if you want to run around ready to Gnaw, you are projecting an audio cue). When the button is released, a 'bark/bite' sound effect is heard. The 'bark' indicates a missed hit; the 'bite' sound effect indicates a successful hit (so nearby Marines know to help their buddy out).
When a Skulk alt-bites a Marine, he will automatically bite down on until A) he is punched off or B) he is shot off by a 2nd Marine. This will be shown as the Skulk biting into the Marine's shoulder/chest (stopping him from firing), with also a low gnarl/growl effect for the duration (preceded by a blood/goo splatter sprite to cover up the transition between animations). The Leap deals a small amount of initial damage and perhaps slight knockback, but after that there is miniscule damage over time. The Marine has the option of meleeing the Skulk off (this does minor damage to the Skulk, and leaves the Skulk with an empty adrenaline bar). The Leap is announced via a clearly audible, high priority sound effect.
<b>Effects:</b>
- Reduces target's movement speed
- Disables target's ranged capabilities
- Does small impact damage and very slowly drains the target's HP (1HP/s)
<b>Rate of Fire:</b> Low (charge-up)
<b>Range:</b> Low (melee range)
<b>Damage:</b> Low (minor impact damage, DoT)
<b>Speed:</b> High (quick release)
Just look at this:
<a href="ftp://ftp.nerim.net/pub/windows/games/ns-fr.com/mirror/videos/knifegaming_Open_Cup_2004_Champions.zip" target="_blank">ftp://ftp.nerim.net/pub/windows/games/ns-...4_Champions.zip</a>
or <a href="http://knife.ninelegends.com/index.php?id=movies/movies" target="_blank">http://knife.ninelegends.com/index.php?id=movies/movies</a>
They have a hard time at the 'fade crematorium' it seems. If these guys are wrong too... well, nobody knows how to play the game, isn't it? NS serious clanplay has drastically decreased because of that. You could even predict the results knowing what the first hive was.
I can understand you are a marin at heart, and you don't like darkness. But unless maps are improved (i mean balanced for both sides), this is gonna end up the same. Skulk can wait like sitting ducks. It'll be the same in serious clanplay. So this leaves 2 choices. 1/bring light setup in order for alien to move and breath. 2/ increase the speed of basic life forms with all the lag issues it includes.
On one hand you have : good looking, shivers, tactic enhancements, dinamic light (technically easier to include than most ppl think, just watch the NS2 news video concerning environment), and i almost forgot: diapers.
On the other hand you have : map brigther than a diamond, sitting duck contest, speed and lag issues (as if it was not obvious with fade blink+celerity already), nothing really new from NS1 exept cosmetics. Plus i don't have a lot of confidence in LUA. Not really the fastest. So lag problem can be devastating. I hope i'm wrong on that last one.
PS: Many thx Mr Fana for keeping the 'dead website up' (har har).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lighting can be used to add atmosphere, not gameplay. Every monitor and every video card has brightness/gamma options because hardware is unavoidably different. Dark hallways have no place in potentially competitive multilayer games. Until every players buys the same monitor and sits in the same room the effect is IMPOSSIBLE to balance between all players and hardware. This is why cloaking was eventually changed to 100% and EVERY widely played map in NS1 is now perfectly lit in every single room.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Godwin point reached.
Oh common!!!, every single FPS game has it's 'creepy sewer' or 'dark and slimy evil lair'. From quake 1 / HL to Farcry/doom3/quake4 you name it. Even CS has some dark spots. It didn't stop players to play online, did it ? Did you ever stop playing a FPS on single player scenario because of that ? You probably did what everyone did: just finished it.
Of course there will be some differences. But they are minors. And it would a shame to deprive NS2 from a good looking and a enhanced game mechanic just because of this lame excuse.
In this respect, I hope the balance of NS2 is blunted. I still want a balanced game, but one where there is some room for some errors to take place and not doom the team.
Leap as alt attack was a good idea.
Bitecam is a problem for noone. Besides, if you were to make the Skulk "accurate", it's eyes would need a FOV over 180 and the mouth would take up the bottom third of the screen. But I digress, such things are easily solved with 75% transparency.
Parasite - I know some people are going to be peeved, but a short burst of audiovisual static is generally a good provoker. I'm not talking flashbangs, not by a long chalk, I'm talking just enough to be noticeable but not obscuring. If needs be, tie it into muting the player, or isolating him from the comm, for that same fraction of a second.
This way it's an annoyance but doesn't scupper your aim (just don't move your mouse when the brief flicker of partial static hits) and will provoke some players into response. BZZT. BZZT. BZZT. Parasite spam!
In universe, think of it as skulk parasite being overcome by new improved armour countermeasures, but still causing a noticeable distortion while the system is purged.
"Shooting in large areas" IS and should ALWAYS be an important part of NS. In fact, its dam near the entire principle behind all NS map layouts and strategy. All NS tactics are based on the concept of marines pushing past undesirable choke points to reach large areas where they have the advantage.
Early game, marines unquestionably have the offensive advantage. Marines push past chokes points to secure large areas while aliens try to hold nodes long enough to get fades and a second hive. Once fades come up aliens start to gain offensive potential. Once the second hive is completely aliens have a LOT more offensive ability, allowing them to match marines in large rooms. Without leap aliens would not be able to retake open areas. This would create unbearable stalemates.
edit: Lighting should never be used as a game mechanic, period.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 Just for be sure some of you guys in the dev team can read / remember this somehow. The leap as a second hive power up is the key. You trashed the entire mechanics of the game changing that part while trying to give a pity advantage to the newplayers / hellen kellers. But at the same time you want a successful competitive game back in the CAL. Trying to balance this seems like a titanic job. This is another completely different game, not NS anymore.
In the left hand it is amazing the amount of trash posts from people who know nothing at all about what are they talking about or have an extra chromosoma. Seems like you need to split up the competitve / non competitive player's suggestions because they are polar sides of every statement. As a fact, the better ideas never came from the hoipolloi, so, after you got your teamspeak meeting with the euros, I strongly encouraged you to get in touch with the remainings of the american competitve scene in the www.evolvens.com site and get some intelligent feedback, most of them consties, seriously, you have nothing to lose.
<--------- Agree 100%. I played a game of NS last night, the first time since, well, i dont know, many months ago, and it wasnt pretty. I used to be a pretty decent fade. I was confident and not too worried about dying most of the time. Lat nitght, though, I was having trouble taking on lone marines with shotguns.... I was rusty, to say the least. This brings me to my point: Being a bit rusty is the difference between winning and losing. This is a fair priniciple in clan play; if your out of practice you deserve to lose. But in pubs single mistakes should not cost your team the game.
I believe this is being addressed in ns2 so ill leave it there. (bit of a sidetrack, sry about that)
In regard to the skulk:
- in my experience chuckling operates as a reasonable goad for an inexperience marine, though being damaged (even though it was only 10hp) provided an even greater incentive to react (often stupidly) to a threat. That said, I feel since skulks are going to have leap from the start they do not need parasite.
-I love its muscular, yet sinewy look. It looks much more like a pack hunter now, which is essentially what skulks (usually) are
-Kudos on keeping the view inside the chomper. In my very first game of NS I found that to be a distinctive and cool feature. It make me think 'sweet, now lets test these pearly whites out'.
-Yes i think alt-fire should just be leap, perhaps with a small knockback, glad to hear this is the direction you seem to have chosen. Grapple seems a little too much like a quirk that wouldnt be used so much. Especially in pubs, why would someone volunteer to be the one 'pinning down' the marine whilst others are rewarded with the kill that you really secured? Most players would just go in chomping.......
PS. no dismembering please! Unfortunately I live in a country with retarded classifcation laws....... a prize for anyone who can guess which :/
The skulk does look amazing, a lot of detail, but I have to say I'm incredibly disappointed at how dog-like it looks. I find myself really pining for the evil, insect-like skulk from NS1. Watching the video made me want to take him for a walk, then give him a treat. I guess it's too late to be complaining about it now, but man, is that a letdown.
On a happier note, it looks like the engine is coming along great, that's got me really hyped, I can't wait to see it in action!