<!--quoteo(post=1721585:date=Aug 8 2009, 03:51 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Aug 8 2009, 03:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->C4K3 and Opprobrious, while obviously both are very critical, are one of the essential voices in making a game. Sure it's nice to have everyone love everything that the developers show, but it's those two folks who, on release of the alpha and beta, will be whipping the game into shape. They'll be scrimming and putting out some serious feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like the rest of us won't? That's a mighty high horse you have there, sir.
Of course, I'm worried that we'll get these people who are so steeped in NS1 that they won't be able to appreciate anything truly new or innovative in NS2 and immediately call for its removal.. eventually giving us basically a slightly tweaked NS1 with signigicant graphical enhancements. Unfortunately, that's not what I want, and I really don't think it's what the general public wants either -- as evidenced by the fact that Valve never picked up Charlie et al. That said, the time for significant criticism is certainly not now before any of us have put any time into playing anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About the elapsed time so far for this game: it's been a while, especially when you bring up the notion of dynamic infestation being shown off 3 years ago... And that was probably on the source engine. Simply put: there is absolutely no possible way that this game is going to be released in the fall of 2009. We currently have no alpha (and even if we were in beta I'd still be worried) and fall officially starts on September 22nd, with winter officially starting on December 21st. That's a pretty small bit of time for their currently projected development progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah, so you have access to the groups planning files, do you? You know what assets are complete, what aren't, and most importantly, how long it takes to code the stuff in to their new engine that you've probably never seen or used?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that the time of release immediately worries me. I'd rather a great finished game then one full of bugs. But when a team considers ripping out heavy armor for sake of time or money it's definitely worryful. Now I don't mind that decision as long as it means that there will be more than just jetpacks available for the marines advancing through the tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All indications, if you've been following the dev notes etc, suggest that yes, there wil be.
I think what annoys many people, particularly myself, is that the criticism these people are levelling are completely mindless. They're putting it out despite having exactly zero experience with the tools that the team is using, and zero knowledge of what their schedule is beyond an end point. And they're doing this despite having apparantly loved the first game so much that they pre-purchased.
At this point, have faith in the team that gave you NS1 and relax. If they're late, they're late, but going around slagging the team right now does absolutely nothing to hurry the process along and makes a person look like an ungrateful ###### in the meantime. Really, the only thing it <i>does</i> do is encourage the team to not tell us anything, and that's no good for the game either.
I <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107028&st=360&p=1719616&#entry1719616" target="_blank">completely agree</a> with you not wanting NS1 all over again. Proof of this is that I definitely would like to see the taser given a chance. Maybe time will prove that it's not best suited as a total replacement for the knife and pistol, but I think NS could use some more weapons and maybe it could be an upgrade like grenades are right now. Mhmm. I'm actually a little disappointed that there has been no indication at all of a new alien class, but alas. My $40 was spent and happily so.
But you being frustrated over my saying that C4K3 and Opprobrious being the only people providing feedback... Well pubs only account for half the info. You need some advanced clan play too!
Then you attack me a bit on my discussion of the currently given release date. Of course I don't have access to their finished material, but I'm really just saying that the release date will not be met. Which I don't exactly have a problem with, it's just that it's looking pretty obvious. Plenty of teams don't meet deadlines, and I'm not worried about my favorite one missing there's either.
And you say that me or these other people are slagging the team and / or are being ungrateful. Well whatever, this is a forum which is intended to be used as a place for discussion... Of course some agree and some don't. Also I'm a constellation member, so we can check off ungrateful.
Is there no one interested in saving parasite? I put forth a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107139&hl=" target="_blank">simple idea</a> a few pages back about a way to include it without it overtaking the projected role of an alien commander, but it seems more people are talkign about licking wounds or eating corpses.... Are there no community members left with some form of common sense in gaming?
I'm not saying my idea is perfect, but it seems we're denegrating into pissing contests on whose opinions matter the most. I do like hearing the positives perspectives, as well as the negative, but I don't give weight to anyone's specific opinion unless they are a developer. However, it has saddened me the alt attack ideas that have been proposed.
UWE needs a ranged, annoyance attack directed at goading a marine on, I don't see why Parasite can't still fill that function. Alt/secondary attacks for each ability seems overkill, but for the basic alt, it should be something basic in return. Not some add grappling maneuver. Perhaps a leap that uses all fours to attack, with a push off, but that at the most. I think Parasite should be it, or at best, only one ability with no alt, and parasite is included.
Now who else wants to save Parasite? If so, what of the idea proposed, or what other practical, and minimal work alternative do you propose.
<!--quoteo(post=1721622:date=Aug 8 2009, 10:08 PM:name=radforChrist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (radforChrist @ Aug 8 2009, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is there no one interested in saving parasite? I put forth a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107139&hl=" target="_blank">simple idea</a> a few pages back about a way to include it without it overtaking the projected role of an alien commander, but it seems more people are talkign about licking wounds or eating corpses.... Are there no community members left with some form of common sense in gaming?
...
Now who else wants to save Parasite? If so, what of the idea proposed, or what other practical, and minimal work alternative do you propose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course! I couldn't agree more with you! Parasite is the key in the early game - second hive going momentum. Is like the alien military inteligence service pointing out targets for lerks and fades, providing security oriented information to gorges and keeping control over the rts / tactical buildings locations in the field. You don't have to be a rocked scientist to notice how important the parasite is for the alien team's tactical performance. Now, pretty sure it will be removed due the "alien commander" (LOL). Welcome to <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><strike>TF2</strike><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NS2.
To be honest I havent read every single post, so this has probably been mentioned before - and its not terribly inventive. However I too liked the way one was able to kind of taunt marines by using parasite. So I think the weak second attack should be a ranged attack.
My only idea is related back to nature, as this seems to be inspiration for alot/all the lifeform ideas. Basically what i propose is a mechanic similar to a spitting cobra, so you spit it at the enemy (assuming there are JPs and HA's still) if you hit a marine in the face they get a light fuzzing effect to their vision for 10 seconds or so, not enough to not see just so they wouldn't be able to make out movement easily in vents and so on. If they were wearing HA they would be unaffected. Perhaps 2 damage if u get them in the eyes, and 1 damage per second for 3 seconds. Perhaps 1 damage if you hit the rest of their body.
Some nice green acidy kind of spirt would be cool.
Mostly i like the new skulk concept. The one thing i think is to funny though is the giraffe-horns... couldn't you guys have given the skulk some triceratops bony-frill + triceratops-horns :P
Also yes... thank you... i'm so sick of those skulks that just vent camp while parasiting (or do that side-step-parasite-retreat crap). Glad all that's been eliminated.
Aliens should be able to use attacks and abilities with one keypress and without changing 'slots'. Similiar to the lerk flying and biting at the same time, Fades should be able to blink/swipe, skulks leap/bite, etc.
As far as the skulk model, I think his head and snout looks too flat. The concept drawing is more boney and rounded. I think the model would look better a bit closer to this. Otherwise, he's pretty cool and I really like how the muscles and limbs move naturally.
I'm not sure what the Alien commander's tools for scouting are, but I think skulk parasite is an integral part of NS1. It is a way of goading marines into make poor decisions. Any DoT attack would be overpowered and wouldn't serve this function. Why? Let's say I get hit by a skulk DoT. As most newbies would, I run back to the base and heal via the armory (this renders defensive more than offensive decisions). With parasite, I can't get rid of it. Instead I am pissed off that I've become a mobile tracking device and charge after the annoying skulk. By hive 3, aliens should have scent of fear in which case parasite loses its importance. But that's a good thing.
Skulks should be quick harassers. In an out. I don't think they should latch onto marines. Actually, I think this would be an ability more suited to the gorge. Perhaps the gorge could lob little critters onto the marines that have to get knocked off. I think this would make good gorge/skulk combo attacks. Aliens should really rely on using multiple classes to achieve victory.
EDIT: I see people keep posting about eating dead bodies for HP. I think this is a bad idea. The game is meant to be fast paced, especially skulks. You shouldn't waste time dragging bodies and chomping them. INSTEAD, why not just give +10 HP for every successful chomp on a live marine?! This makes a lot more sense. Skulks will be rewarded for attacking marines and the gameplay stays fast paced. Hell, lerks and any other aliens that bite could replenish HP this way.
<!--quoteo(post=1721087:date=Aug 6 2009, 04:52 PM:name=FTNPhoenix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FTNPhoenix @ Aug 6 2009, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721087"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The skulk licks itself. By licking itself, it heals maybe 1/4-1/3 of its full health at a time, or maybe even just press and hold alt fire to continuously heal, depending on whether or not you want to player to be able to interrupt the licking to attack (I'm for slow continuous heal).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Skulks aren't meant to be cute, but I like it. Also, Skulks don't seem to have tongues, with that multi-hinged jaw and all. I could see it rubbing itself with its legs, though. Like a fly. I would say have a limit to how much it can heal, like up to 25% of the damage it took. Would significantly increase the lifespan of a strategic player. Most players probably wouldn't live past a few ambushes.
Can't wait to see less speculation and more official news. :)
I also love the idea of the GORGE getting (yet another?) slowing/timely attack. Make them way more useful to their team. In late game, especially CO, there are little to no gorges in a pub game. I would love majoring in Gorgism and supporting my team even more.
<!--quoteo(post=1721633:date=Aug 9 2009, 06:42 AM:name=Xero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xero @ Aug 9 2009, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens should be able to use attacks and abilities with one keypress and without changing 'slots'. Similiar to the lerk flying and biting at the same time, Fades should be able to blink/swipe, skulks leap/bite, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure UWE are going to do this (in NS1 you can bind +movement to get skulk leap/fade blink).
I really liked parasite for its tactical advantages. Non-verbal communication. You put a mark on marines/structures and your team knows their position (much easier and faster than writing messages in team chat). Removing parasite would remove that immersive hive-sight component from the game which would be very sad.
Finding a decent replacement for that ability is pretty hard. I don't like the idea of "just another damage ability" - be it ranged or close combat. Maybe an area effect snare scream with a two second "cast-time" and a five second duration.
Give Parasite a short duration, rather than permanent. That way, skulks can use it as a scouting ability, not to replace the commander, but to supplement him.
Also, the parasite could spread a bit of infestation on the marine, for it's duration. Slowing down his movement for a bit. He would also take a small amount of damage over time.
Hm. Why is the commander the one doing the scouting anyway? Shouldn't he be the one <i>recieving</i> intel, rather than gathering it? And, of course, acting on it.
<!--quoteo(post=1721646:date=Aug 9 2009, 05:34 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2009, 05:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hm. Why is the commander the one doing the scouting anyway? Shouldn't he be the one <i>recieving</i> intel, rather than gathering it? And, of course, acting on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe they're making the commander more of a supporting role, for both sides.
<!--quoteo(post=1721585:date=Aug 9 2009, 07:51 AM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Aug 9 2009, 07:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->C4K3 and Opprobrious, while obviously both are very critical, are one of the essential voices in making a game. Sure it's nice to have everyone love everything that the developers show, but it's those two folks who, on release of the alpha and beta, will be whipping the game into shape. They'll be scrimming and putting out some serious feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally understand their opinions. However (this is more the case of Opprobrious) criticism should be constructive. It should not be slanderous or insulting. Criticism should point out flaws, and if possible point out solutions. Respect should be paid to the creators of the game and therefore any criticisms should keep that in mind. They will not be "whipping the game into shape", it seems clear that at least Opprobrious's idea of this is putting everything back to NS1 and giving it a graphics boost. Game development means you take a risk. You try and make a difference and you take a bold step. Sometimes clinging to the old formula works, sometimes it doesn't. Serious feedback is necessary, as long as it takes into consideration the many issues that arise in developing a game. The strongest criticism I see coming from NS2 is one of a fear of change. An over-criticism of how new gameplay implementations will stunt the game and ruin the experience. Combined with the nostalgic view that NS1 was a perfect balance, which some may argue it was not. Everytime something is proposed to be removed (Parasite is an example), the main criticisms talk of nothing more than how useful, say, Parasite was. They discuss how important it was for the alien team, how it was so helpful in many ways and for this reason must be kept in place. The problem with this argument is that it doesn't take into account the possibility for change. How the ability that may replace the old one may not become useful in a different way, or even MORE useful than the old one while providing a richer gameplay experience. Serious feedback is certainly necessary. It should be proposed in a way that is respectful and considerate. I think C4K3 is good at this. Opprobrious however comes off as arrogant, which is why an opinion like that should not be taken into consideration if proposed in such a manner.
<!--quoteo(post=1721646:date=Aug 9 2009, 10:34 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2009, 10:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hm. Why is the commander the one doing the scouting anyway? Shouldn't he be the one <i>recieving</i> intel, rather than gathering it? And, of course, acting on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's the ability for the commander to do something other than drop meds and upgrade, it's like the opposite situation of when a bad comm ruins the game for the marine team. Commanders in NS1 spend half their time gathering intel and without the ability to do some things for themselves it becomes a very boring class to play.
Just gonna crosspost this: <!--quoteo(post=1721521:date=Aug 8 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Dead-Inside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dead-Inside @ Aug 8 2009, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't really agree. It's my understanding right now that (and this is just my assumptions) aliens will have 2 abilities per hive, meaning for example that skulks start with bite + parasite or whatever replacement will be made. And also +movement. For skulks this is leap. Second hive gives you a new skill (donno what this is, but ya) + alternate fire, and then you have 3 hives, again an ability + it's alternate fire. I'd rather have these in 3 slots and my +movement key than trying to bind up 6 buttons... AND +movement. AND jump.
Ya, not gonna work.
Edit: also, it's a lot less user/newbie friendly when you can't switch between slots and see what skills you have/don't have but just have buttons bound to abilities.
Oh, oh, and I should add, I have nothing against this being added as a BONUS. Being able to bind up "use slotx skill" or whatever without actually having to switch to the corresponding slot would be nice. But I'm strongly against this being the standard, or only, way of going about things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107149" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107149</a>
Sometimes you need a bite halfway through a leap, or not at all. Expecting a new player to learn how to use a separate movement key is not bumping the learning curve that high, especially when we originally had to lastinv back and forth to bite leap.
Besides, after leaping around the map one would probably get sick of hearing the automatic bite/jaw close.
A second ability for a skulk that isnt parasite but has a similar tactical advantage could be a 'sniff' (Or 'Scent Tracking' if that sounds a bit more tactical ;) )
The skulk would have to be still for it to work and would show him a trace decay movement of any marines that have passed by within the past ten seconds or so (a bit like Legend of Zelda's Wolf feature on teh Wii) The sniff could be enhanced within areas of infestation and decreased elsewhere, this still allows the alien commander to be in control of 'tagging' marines or whatever but gives the individual player an additional hunting feature.
Perhaps if the sniff is audible with a growl or something then it sould also be used to lure marines forward knowing that there is a skulk hunting them down.
Just an idea for y'all - lookin forward to playing against ya soon!
<!--quoteo(post=1721681:date=Aug 9 2009, 09:40 AM:name=Recoil_Dougal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Recoil_Dougal @ Aug 9 2009, 09:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721681"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A second ability for a skulk that isnt parasite but has a similar tactical advantage could be a 'sniff' (Or 'Scent Tracking' if that sounds a bit more tactical ;) )<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1721646:date=Aug 9 2009, 05:34 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2009, 05:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hm. Why is the commander the one doing the scouting anyway? Shouldn't he be the one <i>recieving</i> intel, rather than gathering it? And, of course, acting on it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They've said that the alien comm isn't really going to be the team's boss in the same sense as the marine comm, but rather a supporting role. Sort of like the single gorge in 1.0x was the team's backbone but didn't order anyone around. So surveying the map and somehow marking marines for the rest of the team sounds like a good way to keep them busy.
For the 'grapple' ability, what if marines using melee weapons would automatically hit the skulks on them if they used a melee attack? This goes off the idea that 1 skulk could still use it on 1 marine by using grapple, getting hit, letting go (say the grapple has a certain amount of time they have to clamp down), followed by a dance as the marine tries to gain distance to switch to his gun, but if he does the skulk could attach again.
Explanation: Skulk grapples marine, marine switches to close-range ability (that torch dealy) and uses it, damaging the skulk. Skulk lets go, moves, grapples again, marine attacks him once more, then when the skulk lets go again, the marine jumps over a railing, etc. Or dies, because he can't. Basically, make it less 'marine is walking, grapple chomp chomp marine dies' or 'marine is walking, grapple marine flails around, dies.' Give both players a chance to win due to skill, not base timing.
For 'parasite' replacement: How about a bile attack? Rather than spitting a tracker onto the marine, the skulk hits him with a spore/fang/claw/whatever that makes other skulks do more damage to him, and does a tiny amount of damage itself. That way you could have skulks working in concert to hit the marine with it, draw him out, and then the second skulk does more damage to him.
My god, Shalrath, that skill sounds so excruciatingly boring, for both the marine and the skulk. If you think about it yourself, would you enjoy using it?
As far as the last paragraph goes, a double-edged sword might be interesting. (Also opens up for a "suicideattack", which should be quite fun. Reminds me of Pudge in DOTA.) Might take quite a bit of balancing, but I imagine a double-edged bite (hurting yourself for say 20 hp) and a bite takes down a nonarmored marine, and then you do the same thing to the next marine in the room. Feels like there could be quite a bit of skill in there too to know when to use which skill. It'd probably need a bit of a cooldown (more so than the regular bite), even if it does hurt yourself.
"I'm coming around to putting leap on the Skulk bite alt-fire. If we add a bite at the end of the leap, then it's consistent too."
Seriously no on the automatic bite! Having a key bound to movement is plenty enough, so the newbies don't have to switch between weapon slots.
This is just a wild suggestion (since i don't want leap as the alt fire) How about a sort of charged up bite where the player holds their alt fire and releases one bite with added damage? A sort of focus bite that needs to be charged. This could help if the developers are planning on taking focus out of the game.
Bad idea i know, but at least its a suggestion.
edit: or maybe on the other hand, have the alt fire for each class be a movement related technique, such as leap (without the bite at the end of it), maybe a kind of dive bomb for lerk, blink for fade obviously etc.
Comments
Alternate fire. Ie. Right mouse button. It's not that complicated, is it?
Nice dude, totally got that guy. He must be a <i>moron</i> or something.
Like the rest of us won't? That's a mighty high horse you have there, sir.
Of course, I'm worried that we'll get these people who are so steeped in NS1 that they won't be able to appreciate anything truly new or innovative in NS2 and immediately call for its removal.. eventually giving us basically a slightly tweaked NS1 with signigicant graphical enhancements. Unfortunately, that's not what I want, and I really don't think it's what the general public wants either -- as evidenced by the fact that Valve never picked up Charlie et al. That said, the time for significant criticism is certainly not now before any of us have put any time into playing anything.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->About the elapsed time so far for this game: it's been a while, especially when you bring up the notion of dynamic infestation being shown off 3 years ago... And that was probably on the source engine. Simply put: there is absolutely no possible way that this game is going to be released in the fall of 2009. We currently have no alpha (and even if we were in beta I'd still be worried) and fall officially starts on September 22nd, with winter officially starting on December 21st. That's a pretty small bit of time for their currently projected development progress.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah, so you have access to the groups planning files, do you? You know what assets are complete, what aren't, and most importantly, how long it takes to code the stuff in to their new engine that you've probably never seen or used?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not that the time of release immediately worries me. I'd rather a great finished game then one full of bugs. But when a team considers ripping out heavy armor for sake of time or money it's definitely worryful. Now I don't mind that decision as long as it means that there will be more than just jetpacks available for the marines advancing through the tech tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All indications, if you've been following the dev notes etc, suggest that yes, there wil be.
I think what annoys many people, particularly myself, is that the criticism these people are levelling are completely mindless. They're putting it out despite having exactly zero experience with the tools that the team is using, and zero knowledge of what their schedule is beyond an end point. And they're doing this despite having apparantly loved the first game so much that they pre-purchased.
At this point, have faith in the team that gave you NS1 and relax. If they're late, they're late, but going around slagging the team right now does absolutely nothing to hurry the process along and makes a person look like an ungrateful ###### in the meantime. Really, the only thing it <i>does</i> do is encourage the team to not tell us anything, and that's no good for the game either.
But you being frustrated over my saying that C4K3 and Opprobrious being the only people providing feedback... Well pubs only account for half the info. You need some advanced clan play too!
Then you attack me a bit on my discussion of the currently given release date. Of course I don't have access to their finished material, but I'm really just saying that the release date will not be met. Which I don't exactly have a problem with, it's just that it's looking pretty obvious. Plenty of teams don't meet deadlines, and I'm not worried about my favorite one missing there's either.
And you say that me or these other people are slagging the team and / or are being ungrateful. Well whatever, this is a forum which is intended to be used as a place for discussion... Of course some agree and some don't. Also I'm a constellation member, so we can check off ungrateful.
I'm not saying my idea is perfect, but it seems we're denegrating into pissing contests on whose opinions matter the most. I do like hearing the positives perspectives, as well as the negative, but I don't give weight to anyone's specific opinion unless they are a developer. However, it has saddened me the alt attack ideas that have been proposed.
UWE needs a ranged, annoyance attack directed at goading a marine on, I don't see why Parasite can't still fill that function. Alt/secondary attacks for each ability seems overkill, but for the basic alt, it should be something basic in return. Not some add grappling maneuver. Perhaps a leap that uses all fours to attack, with a push off, but that at the most. I think Parasite should be it, or at best, only one ability with no alt, and parasite is included.
Now who else wants to save Parasite? If so, what of the idea proposed, or what other practical, and minimal work alternative do you propose.
...
Now who else wants to save Parasite? If so, what of the idea proposed, or what other practical, and minimal work alternative do you propose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course! I couldn't agree more with you! Parasite is the key in the early game - second hive going momentum. Is like the alien military inteligence service pointing out targets for lerks and fades, providing security oriented information to gorges and keeping control over the rts / tactical buildings locations in the field. You don't have to be a rocked scientist to notice how important the parasite is for the alien team's tactical performance. Now, pretty sure it will be removed due the "alien commander" (LOL). Welcome to <!--coloro:red--><span style="color:red"><!--/coloro--><strike>TF2</strike><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> NS2.
<img src="http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2332/downsskulk.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
P.S. Stop messing with my profile please, is freaking childish and lame.
To be honest I havent read every single post, so this has probably been mentioned before - and its not terribly inventive. However I too liked the way one was able to kind of taunt marines by using parasite. So I think the weak second attack should be a ranged attack.
My only idea is related back to nature, as this seems to be inspiration for alot/all the lifeform ideas. Basically what i propose is a mechanic similar to a spitting cobra, so you spit it at the enemy (assuming there are JPs and HA's still) if you hit a marine in the face they get a light fuzzing effect to their vision for 10 seconds or so, not enough to not see just so they wouldn't be able to make out movement easily in vents and so on. If they were wearing HA they would be unaffected. Perhaps 2 damage if u get them in the eyes, and 1 damage per second for 3 seconds. Perhaps 1 damage if you hit the rest of their body.
Some nice green acidy kind of spirt would be cool.
Anyhow if anyone reads this I'll be suprised.
Regards,
yoda
Winter starts December 21st.
If NS2 beta is not released by that point, you will purchase a copy of the game for me.
If NS2 beta is released by that point, I will purchase a copy of the game for you or a person of your choice.
Put up or shut up.
Also yes... thank you... i'm so sick of those skulks that just vent camp while parasiting (or do that side-step-parasite-retreat crap). Glad all that's been eliminated.
Aliens should be able to use attacks and abilities with one keypress and without changing 'slots'. Similiar to the lerk flying and biting at the same time, Fades should be able to blink/swipe, skulks leap/bite, etc.
As far as the skulk model, I think his head and snout looks too flat. The concept drawing is more boney and rounded. I think the model would look better a bit closer to this. Otherwise, he's pretty cool and I really like how the muscles and limbs move naturally.
I'm not sure what the Alien commander's tools for scouting are, but I think skulk parasite is an integral part of NS1. It is a way of goading marines into make poor decisions. Any DoT attack would be overpowered and wouldn't serve this function. Why? Let's say I get hit by a skulk DoT. As most newbies would, I run back to the base and heal via the armory (this renders defensive more than offensive decisions). With parasite, I can't get rid of it. Instead I am pissed off that I've become a mobile tracking device and charge after the annoying skulk. By hive 3, aliens should have scent of fear in which case parasite loses its importance. But that's a good thing.
Skulks should be quick harassers. In an out. I don't think they should latch onto marines. Actually, I think this would be an ability more suited to the gorge. Perhaps the gorge could lob little critters onto the marines that have to get knocked off. I think this would make good gorge/skulk combo attacks. Aliens should really rely on using multiple classes to achieve victory.
EDIT: I see people keep posting about eating dead bodies for HP. I think this is a bad idea. The game is meant to be fast paced, especially skulks. You shouldn't waste time dragging bodies and chomping them. INSTEAD, why not just give +10 HP for every successful chomp on a live marine?! This makes a lot more sense. Skulks will be rewarded for attacking marines and the gameplay stays fast paced. Hell, lerks and any other aliens that bite could replenish HP this way.
Skulks aren't meant to be cute, but I like it. Also, Skulks don't seem to have tongues, with that multi-hinged jaw and all. I could see it rubbing itself with its legs, though. Like a fly.
I would say have a limit to how much it can heal, like up to 25% of the damage it took. Would significantly increase the lifespan of a strategic player. Most players probably wouldn't live past a few ambushes.
Can't wait to see less speculation and more official news. :)
I also love the idea of the GORGE getting (yet another?) slowing/timely attack. Make them way more useful to their team. In late game, especially CO, there are little to no gorges in a pub game. I would love majoring in Gorgism and supporting my team even more.
I'm pretty sure UWE are going to do this (in NS1 you can bind +movement to get skulk leap/fade blink).
Finding a decent replacement for that ability is pretty hard. I don't like the idea of "just another damage ability" - be it ranged or close combat. Maybe an area effect snare scream with a two second "cast-time" and a five second duration.
Also, the parasite could spread a bit of infestation on the marine, for it's duration. Slowing down his movement for a bit. He would also take a small amount of damage over time.
I believe they're making the commander more of a supporting role, for both sides.
I totally understand their opinions. However (this is more the case of Opprobrious) criticism should be constructive. It should not be slanderous or insulting. Criticism should point out flaws, and if possible point out solutions. Respect should be paid to the creators of the game and therefore any criticisms should keep that in mind. They will not be "whipping the game into shape", it seems clear that at least Opprobrious's idea of this is putting everything back to NS1 and giving it a graphics boost. Game development means you take a risk. You try and make a difference and you take a bold step. Sometimes clinging to the old formula works, sometimes it doesn't. Serious feedback is necessary, as long as it takes into consideration the many issues that arise in developing a game. The strongest criticism I see coming from NS2 is one of a fear of change. An over-criticism of how new gameplay implementations will stunt the game and ruin the experience. Combined with the nostalgic view that NS1 was a perfect balance, which some may argue it was not. Everytime something is proposed to be removed (Parasite is an example), the main criticisms talk of nothing more than how useful, say, Parasite was. They discuss how important it was for the alien team, how it was so helpful in many ways and for this reason must be kept in place. The problem with this argument is that it doesn't take into account the possibility for change. How the ability that may replace the old one may not become useful in a different way, or even MORE useful than the old one while providing a richer gameplay experience.
Serious feedback is certainly necessary. It should be proposed in a way that is respectful and considerate. I think C4K3 is good at this. Opprobrious however comes off as arrogant, which is why an opinion like that should not be taken into consideration if proposed in such a manner.
It's the ability for the commander to do something other than drop meds and upgrade, it's like the opposite situation of when a bad comm ruins the game for the marine team. Commanders in NS1 spend half their time gathering intel and without the ability to do some things for themselves it becomes a very boring class to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1721521:date=Aug 8 2009, 02:49 PM:name=Dead-Inside)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dead-Inside @ Aug 8 2009, 02:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1721521"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't really agree. It's my understanding right now that (and this is just my assumptions) aliens will have 2 abilities per hive, meaning for example that skulks start with bite + parasite or whatever replacement will be made. And also +movement. For skulks this is leap. Second hive gives you a new skill (donno what this is, but ya) + alternate fire, and then you have 3 hives, again an ability + it's alternate fire. I'd rather have these in 3 slots and my +movement key than trying to bind up 6 buttons... AND +movement. AND jump.
Ya, not gonna work.
Edit: also, it's a lot less user/newbie friendly when you can't switch between slots and see what skills you have/don't have but just have buttons bound to abilities.
Oh, oh, and I should add, I have nothing against this being added as a BONUS. Being able to bind up "use slotx skill" or whatever without actually having to switch to the corresponding slot would be nice. But I'm strongly against this being the standard, or only, way of going about things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From here: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=107149" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=107149</a>
Sometimes you need a bite halfway through a leap, or not at all. Expecting a new player to learn how to use a separate movement key is not bumping the learning curve that high, especially when we originally had to lastinv back and forth to bite leap.
Besides, after leaping around the map one would probably get sick of hearing the automatic bite/jaw close.
The skulk would have to be still for it to work and would show him a trace decay movement of any marines that have passed by within the past ten seconds or so (a bit like Legend of Zelda's Wolf feature on teh Wii)
The sniff could be enhanced within areas of infestation and decreased elsewhere, this still allows the alien commander to be in control of 'tagging' marines or whatever but gives the individual player an additional hunting feature.
Perhaps if the sniff is audible with a growl or something then it sould also be used to lure marines forward knowing that there is a skulk hunting them down.
Just an idea for y'all - lookin forward to playing against ya soon!
-Dougal
actually that idea sounds quite nice
No thanks. Let players bite by themselves.
No thanks. Let players bite by themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah... skill bsed gaming!
no problem leap and bite being on different slots :P
it would be too easy to have left/right button combo!
They've said that the alien comm isn't really going to be the team's boss in the same sense as the marine comm, but rather a supporting role. Sort of like the single gorge in 1.0x was the team's backbone but didn't order anyone around. So surveying the map and somehow marking marines for the rest of the team sounds like a good way to keep them busy.
For the 'grapple' ability, what if marines using melee weapons would automatically hit the skulks on them if they used a melee attack? This goes off the idea that 1 skulk could still use it on 1 marine by using grapple, getting hit, letting go (say the grapple has a certain amount of time they have to clamp down), followed by a dance as the marine tries to gain distance to switch to his gun, but if he does the skulk could attach again.
Explanation: Skulk grapples marine, marine switches to close-range ability (that torch dealy) and uses it, damaging the skulk. Skulk lets go, moves, grapples again, marine attacks him once more, then when the skulk lets go again, the marine jumps over a railing, etc. Or dies, because he can't. Basically, make it less 'marine is walking, grapple chomp chomp marine dies' or 'marine is walking, grapple marine flails around, dies.' Give both players a chance to win due to skill, not base timing.
For 'parasite' replacement: How about a bile attack? Rather than spitting a tracker onto the marine, the skulk hits him with a spore/fang/claw/whatever that makes other skulks do more damage to him, and does a tiny amount of damage itself. That way you could have skulks working in concert to hit the marine with it, draw him out, and then the second skulk does more damage to him.
As far as the last paragraph goes, a double-edged sword might be interesting. (Also opens up for a "suicideattack", which should be quite fun. Reminds me of Pudge in DOTA.) Might take quite a bit of balancing, but I imagine a double-edged bite (hurting yourself for say 20 hp) and a bite takes down a nonarmored marine, and then you do the same thing to the next marine in the room. Feels like there could be quite a bit of skill in there too to know when to use which skill. It'd probably need a bit of a cooldown (more so than the regular bite), even if it does hurt yourself.
"I'm coming around to putting leap on the Skulk bite alt-fire. If we add a bite at the end of the leap, then it's consistent too."
Seriously no on the automatic bite! Having a key bound to movement is plenty enough, so the newbies don't have to switch between weapon slots.
This is just a wild suggestion (since i don't want leap as the alt fire) How about a sort of charged up bite where the player holds their alt fire and releases one bite with added damage? A sort of focus bite that needs to be charged. This could help if the developers are planning on taking focus out of the game.
Bad idea i know, but at least its a suggestion.
edit: or maybe on the other hand, have the alt fire for each class be a movement related technique, such as leap (without the bite at the end of it), maybe a kind of dive bomb for lerk, blink for fade obviously etc.