Development Blog Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #26

acidicX

there already is a new topic about NS2@unix => <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=104522" target="_blank">clickmeyesyesyes</a>

INKEDOUT

<!--quoteo(post=1683295:date=Jul 14 2008, 04:51 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Harimau @ Jul 14 2008, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I noticed the level in the level editor screeny was quite.. plain. Lacked colour, lacked contrast, was too 'flat' and the shapes looked.. simple and blocky. It's one thing to be industrial but...
Now, I doubt it'll be part of a final product, but it's probably not the best choice for a development screenshot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yeah but the hammer editor looks really blocky when you look at screen shots... but I think the views (x/y/z) need to be more than just blue. It is hard enough to find objects in Hammer when they are all different colours. Take a note from Hammer and AutoCAD and make them all different colours, PLEASE!

Swiftspear

MASSIVE news.

My 2 cents:

An engine using the physX platform with game play entirely lua based is an indie developer's dream. Especially if it has lighting, rendering, and texture properties on par with the source engine. I've administrated over at the Spring project for 2 years now, I know exactly what can be accomplished by one guy with a vision and alot of time, and it seems no smaller a project here. This announcement certainly doesn't spell death for the NS2 project in my mind, but an engine is a HUGE amount of work. The biggest risk here is just running into some fatal bug late on that isn't feasible to quickly easily fix... Is the NS playtesting team testing for NS2? If not, I'd say you'll soon be at the point where you need to get a team together before bugs start becoming retroactively destructive.

On mapping: Hammer is horrendus, it's one of the weakest mapping tools in the gaming industry. I know for a fact NS has lost mappers simply because they didn't like working with hammer after mapping for other engines. I have absolutely zero respect for the notion that a new mapping tool is somehow a bane to mappers, and I honestly think it's downright petty to say you're going to quit mapping because you can't work with hammer. It's absolutely valid in regard to mapping work already done, I really hope the UWE guys can make that work portable on some level at least, but to outright refuse to use a tool besides hammer is ridiculous. If you were using hammer for NS's benefit, I solute you, but I really can't view that as anything but using a vastly inferior tool in response to the lack of better alternatives. There is no justification in wanting to maintain that standard.

Now for the questions, because I'm sure I care about a whole slew of things that other people are uninterested in. Moddability. When we talk about making NS on the source engine that's not an issue because it's just source... but now this is a new engine, with dev tools being made for it from scratch. What kind of moddability are we looking at here? What kind of licensing schemes are you planning? As someone involved to some degree with the indie gaming scene, I can't express enough how much a good FPS engine under GPL, LGPL or some other reasonably open license that would allow projects to pursue their own distribution schemes would be appreciated... not that I really expect that... Is single player just going to be an outright no go on this engine? It wouldn't be the most terrible thing ever... but it would be nice if there was at least some of the functionality there for applying AIs for modders, even if the AI's themselfs haven't been developed in house. NS bots have had a fair bit of success considering the massive annoyance I personally find them. But back into the modding scene, or the indie scene, there are DEFINITELY uses for AI within a game engine... I mean, even within the context of NS, turrets have to know how to pick targets somehow... It can probably be handled hardcoded more basically then a real AI interface, but if there will be modders coming in and doing different things after the fact then having the basic interfaces there already will make a huge difference, especially with lua being somewhat inherently set up to make things like AI coding easier.

On Animation/physics: my advice would be to put as much effort into these things as can be spared. The way players and objects interact with the world is absolutely and totally what makes or breaks a first person game. Games like Jurez and Halflife make the environment feel so much more alive simply because they give the player an extremely responsive interface that feeds back in an extremely tactile way. Air control in source is key to the feel IMO, the fluid curves of acceleration and deceleration. And no, I'm not trying to make a case for bunnyhopping, but the flaw in the principles that make it possible is a bug within, not the flaw of the principles themselfs. Things like the physics of how a gun fires, the way it kicks, what it feels like when an object strikes a player, what the experience of jumping and landing is like, these things make an FPS game completely and totally. Realistically, if skulks fades and lerks are kept there will DEFINITELY be a need to have a good player physics system, because NS is a game MADE by movement classes and movement options that work nothing like a traditional FPS systems. Changing the way things feel and work is inevitable... but replacing the currently quite good system with a poor one will strip the soul out of the game.

One last thing. Don't forget to make special keys bindable. It sucks to find that a game can't use the mousewheel or mouse 3-5 buttons just out of arbitrary developer lazyness. Also true for joypads (although NS itself probably should never be played with one). It's an engine feature, and one of the things that sets source apart from more amateur FPS engines, yet it's something that's relatively easy to do from a development standpoint.

Karba

Definitely a video showing tech capabilities of the new engine would be interesting to calm down all the mistruth people have about this engine change <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

TychoCelchuuu

<!--quoteo(post=1683326:date=Jul 14 2008, 07:50 AM:name=Karba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karba @ Jul 14 2008, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683326"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Definitely a video showing tech capabilities of the new engine would be interesting to calm down all the mistruth people have about this engine change <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called the dynamic infestation video and it has been around for a while now.

edit: also Swiftspear's post wins the 2008 award for "longest post that is actually very good and not a ridiculous pile of meaningless words."

Karba

<!--quoteo(post=1683341:date=Jul 14 2008, 02:32 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 14 2008, 02:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->It's called the dynamic infestation video and it has been around for a while now.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->

edit: also Swiftspear's post wins the 2008 award for "longest post that is actually very good and not a ridiculous pile of meaningless words."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/O_RLY.jpg/100px-O_RLY.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> checking this site almost daily during last 2 years and I didn't known that that video was made with Max Engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nerd-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::nerdy::" border="0" alt="nerd-fix.gif" />


[mode ironic off] "another" video or explanation showing actual state and tech cappabilities would be good , this change has demoralized mayor part of the community that believe this engine shift is negative.

Flayra

<!--quoteo(post=1683105:date=Jul 11 2008, 10:49 AM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 11 2008, 10:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Max, is there any chance of Linux or mac versions?

Or should I stop dreaming?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There is definitely more of a possibility of this now than with Source. I would personally love an OS X version especially but we might not look into this until after the first release of NS2. So no promises, but our goal is to unite the world through play, so other OS' would fit into this.

ChromeAngel

<!--quoteo(post=1683375:date=Jul 14 2008, 06:59 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jul 14 2008, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is definitely more of a possibility of this now than with Source. I would personally love an OS X version especially but we might not look into this until after the first release of NS2. So no promises, but our goal is to unite the world through play, so other OS' would fit into this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This all looks very positive. I'm seeing more posts here about players wanting to buy a 2nd copy for there non-windows systems than players turning their backs because it isn't source any more. Crazy move might just work <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />

Prefix

<!--quoteo(post=1683375:date=Jul 14 2008, 06:59 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jul 14 2008, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is definitely more of a possibility of this now than with Source. I would personally love an OS X version especially but we might not look into this until after the first release of NS2. So no promises, but our goal is to unite the world through play, so other OS' would fit into this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thanks for the reply Flayra,

Glad to hear you will consider it after the release <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=1683341:date=Jul 14 2008, 09:32 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 14 2008, 09:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: also Swiftspear's post wins the 2008 award for "longest post that is actually very good and not a ridiculous pile of meaningless words."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

I realize it's a tldr post, but hopefully someone will pull out the more interesting bits and attempt to discuss them more fluidly... I just considered it somewhat disconcerting that in 8 pages no one mentioned modding for the new engine, considering that NS came up as a mod itself. Especially with this engine being Lua based (read: easy as all hell to work with) Modding could definitely be that extra commercial push and the thing that pushes the project's reputation over the top and into big league territory.

I'm personally a huge fan of the open source "sell the game and GPL the engine" practice. If more companies did it it'd make it alot easier for projects like NS2 to come up in the market that right now is flooded with big name titles that aren't really all that impressive on close inspection.

Flayra

<!--quoteo(post=1683227:date=Jul 13 2008, 03:46 AM:name=Novakoala)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Novakoala @ Jul 13 2008, 03:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683227"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->The Ariadne Engine<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
(after the fictional arm of the galaxy where NS was set)

Unknown Worlds always seem to be doing the impossible - putting together a modern game engine from the ground up with a relatively tiny team of two (one)? I'm impressed. And cautiously optimistic!

Does this mean that licensing the Source engine was wasted money, though? Licensing isn't cheap and I know UW's resources are far from limitless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Heh. For the record, Max is doing all the engine work. Someone asked what I do - I'm doing the "game" programming. Movement, alien abilities, Commander Mode, resource system, weapons, etc. The tech is Max's responsibility and the user experience is mine.

Also, I probably can't say much about Source or our own financials, but I can tell you we don't waste money around here and didn't do so with the engine switch either.

Flayra

<!--quoteo(post=1683239:date=Jul 13 2008, 08:45 AM:name=TerraGamerX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TerraGamerX @ Jul 13 2008, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My biggest concern: <b>are you still releasing it through Steam?</b> You have put so much emphasis on selling it in a box, and with this news following... You stated you were preparing to use the Source engine and release it on Steam, but those two points were in the same statement.
<img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/confused-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="???" border="0" alt="confused-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep, we're still planning on releasing it on Steam.

Karba

<!--quoteo(post=1683375:date=Jul 14 2008, 05:59 PM:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Flayra @ Jul 14 2008, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683375"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is definitely more of a possibility of this now than with Source. I would personally love an OS X version especially but we might not look into this until after the first release of NS2. So no promises, but our goal is to unite the world through play, so other OS' would fit into this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I don't know if people known this, but is well known that Valve is currently developing a linux port of his engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> <a href="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=source_linux&num=1" target="_blank">Phoronix.com - Valve's Source Engine coming to linux</a>

Prefix

<!--quoteo(post=1683392:date=Jul 14 2008, 08:17 PM:name=Karba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Karba @ Jul 14 2008, 08:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know if people known this, but is well known that Valve is currently developing a linux port of his engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wow.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":0" border="0" alt="wow.gif" /> <a href="http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=source_linux&num=1" target="_blank">Phoronix.com - Valve's Source Engine coming to linux</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I read that months ago, its a rumor put together by speculations - its unlikely.

acidicX

btw - CUDA apps will work on Radeon cards too. This means PhysX is going to work accelerated on ATI/AMD cards... in some time. Which is kind of important, since the Radeon 4XXX cards are the better choice nowadays (better performance pro $/€ and performance pro watts)
But still, I think the Havok engine performs MUCH better than PhysX.

Mr. Epic

<!--quoteo(post=1683415:date=Jul 14 2008, 05:48 PM:name=acidicX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acidicX @ Jul 14 2008, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683415"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->btw - CUDA apps will work on Radeon cards too. This means PhysX is going to work accelerated on ATI/AMD cards... in some time. Which is kind of important<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, nvidia is actively helping those developers to ensure it works for the ATI cards. This is great news- unified accelerated physics makes it feasible to actually spend time on physics for gameplay and effects since the userbase is going to reach 100% <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />

B0red4

<!--quoteo(post=1683395:date=Jul 14 2008, 07:36 PM:name=Prefix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Prefix @ Jul 14 2008, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I read that months ago, its a rumor put together by speculations - its unlikely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Actually a linux port of source is quite likely, considering that the PS3 uses OpenGL. With the orange box on the ps3, that is prolly the reason why we will be seeing a source port.

They never really said why, but i bet thats why they had problems with the ps3 version, because of the porting to opengl

Underwhelmed

I'm a bit disappointed that I'll have to wait for NS2 longer now, but I'm hopeful of the new possibilities this engine presents. I was never a fan of the Source engine, especially the netcode aspect of it. Please take the time to deliver a final, polished product and keep in mind that the engine merely represents the gameplay ceiling. And I wish people would stop throwing out names for the engine - the name doesn't even <b>matter</b>.

And I hope it's not too presumptuous of me to suggest divorcing netcode/user input/etc from rendering.

SgtHydra

I must say, it is a big step to go from the tested Source Engine to your own engine.

And I applaud you. You should know this engine inside and out, you made it after all, and this probably will mean a more fully realized NS2.

However, BUG TEST IT LIKE CRAZY. A single slipup could spell disaster!

So careful out there... <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink-fix.gif" />

Swiftspear

<!--quoteo(post=1683428:date=Jul 14 2008, 07:33 PM:name=CyberMantis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CyberMantis @ Jul 14 2008, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, nvidia is actively helping those developers to ensure it works for the ATI cards. This is great news- unified accelerated physics makes it feasible to actually spend time on physics for gameplay and effects since the userbase is going to reach 100% <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I doubt it will ever reach 100%... Even within the next 5 years (an eternity in computer time) we probably won't see higher then 60% adaption. But in gaming, even a 20% margin is a pretty good target, since the reality is the majority of casual gamers will probably never clue in and it's not really even worth wasting time looking at them for a developer that wants to make a game they would want to play themselves.

La Chupacabra

<!--quoteo(post=1683435:date=Jul 15 2008, 04:35 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Underwhelmed @ Jul 15 2008, 04:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683435"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I wish people would stop throwing out names for the engine - the name doesn't even <b>matter</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the devs asked for the name suggestions...

c0ke

what i wonder about is: if you make your own engine, what about all that existing plugins and stuff?
amx mod and so on, will they not fit to the engine? will ppl have to code completly new addons?

Obraxis

Good news i think. The source engine can be difficult to work with.

My suggestions for engine name:

EclipseEngine
OriginEngine

And seeing as all the tools and engine are now in-house, hopefully us old NS PTs will be able to test some stuff *hinthint*

Good luck. Looking forward to some screenshots.

Karba

<!--quoteo(post=1683461:date=Jul 15 2008, 10:40 AM:name=La Chupacabra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(La Chupacabra @ Jul 15 2008, 10:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the devs asked for the name suggestions...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think the best names given to date are this ones:

- Natural Engine
- Evolution Engine
- Max Engine


Personally I vote for Natural Engine <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />

acidicX

<!--quoteo(post=1683475:date=Jul 15 2008, 07:52 AM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Jul 15 2008, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what i wonder about is: if you make your own engine, what about all that existing plugins and stuff?
amx mod and so on, will they not fit to the engine? will ppl have to code completly new addons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Even the Source engine was a new engine, and amxx is not compatible to Source. Anyway, I think NS2 will not be a straight port on a new engine, so maybe 80% of the plugins would be worthless because they are just not compatible to the new gameplay, even if they would technically work...

spellman23

<!--quoteo(post=1683431:date=Jul 15 2008, 02:28 AM:name=B0red4)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B0red4 @ Jul 15 2008, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually a linux port of source is quite likely, considering that the PS3 uses OpenGL. With the orange box on the ps3, that is prolly the reason why we will be seeing a source port.

They never really said why, but i bet thats why they had problems with the ps3 version, because of the porting to opengl<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There's also been some grief between Steam and Apple, both sides complaining the other isn't playing nice. So, that's why so far no port of Steam into your Macs.

But hopefully Steam will figure out that over 50% of college student laptops are Macs now, and some Mac users still wanna play games.

GaidinTS

Just a few questions for Max:
Why stick with BSP's, I hear that compared to some newer technology out there, they are quite inefficient. What about octrees, or some other method of representing 3dimensional space.

Is it going to openGL or directx? I too would love a linux version.
Are you planning on using any other open source technologies besides Bullet, for instance Cal3d for models, ogg for music, etc.

Along those same lines, would you ever consider open sourcing the engine after NS2 has gotten popular, made you guys millions, and you've moved on to the next game?

Good luck with the engine, sounds like it was a smart choice in the long run.

Regnareb

<!--quoteo(post=1683475:date=Jul 15 2008, 02:52 PM:name=c0ke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(c0ke @ Jul 15 2008, 02:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what i wonder about is: if you make your own engine, what about all that existing plugins and stuff?
amx mod and so on, will they not fit to the engine? will ppl have to code completly new addons?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why use plugins when you have LUA ?


Personnally I prefer <b>Evolution Engine</b>.

Faskalia

Back to the roots:

Bilaterally
Overpowered
Bollocks

Or Bob-Engine for short.

But if you want something that sound smooth that would cost several millions, if a marketing company had to come up with it:

natology engine

A hybrid of natural and technology

Shamtree

<!--quoteo(post=1683485:date=Jul 15 2008, 09:55 AM:name=GaidinTS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(GaidinTS @ Jul 15 2008, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1683485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why stick with BSP's<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think there would be any advantages to using another format when NS2 is indoor and BSP does indoor environments easily.