Development Blog Update - Unknown Worlds Podcast #26

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  • exoityexoity Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14620Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 608
    I believe that it is absolutely amazing that an entire engine will be written. I think it would be very interesting to see what both Charlie with your previous experience and just seeing all the graphical work that Max has done for the industry. I am definitely excited to see the engine in action. It does sound like it will help out a great deal to create your own engine, I hope that everything works smoother.

    I was wondering if you were ready to release any information on how the game would be distributed?

    Also since I did notice you brought up GDC, will you be attending GDC Austin in September?
    NAPT : Former PT-Lead
    Game Developer.
  • woodywoody 192.210.148.243:27016 [KcK] SoCal..Kustom Maps Join Date: 2004-02-14 Member: 26541Members Posts: 259 Advanced user
    credit where credit is due I say,call it NS2MAX


    ps: add some stuff on the box when you pat. it like-developed for " Natural Selection2 Source "
    192.210.148.243:27016 SoCal..ComBat....[KcK]
  • eliotmateliotmat Join Date: 2002-12-01 Member: 10350Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 423
    Make this engine run on linux if you truly want to generate some awesome community development.

    nerd-fix.gif Linux nerds like to make cool ######. nerds + cool ###### + NS = super plugins, super maps, extended community life, etc.

    or don't.....whatever.
    imageimageimage
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    ---
    My old clan and server - RIP - many good memories:
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    69.93.41.35:27015[FAT]'s Accidental Bowel Movement **NS ONLY**
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  • TheNinthPlayerTheNinthPlayer Join Date: 2002-05-20 Member: 637Members, Constellation Posts: 74
    Awesome news!

    I like the GTA4 physics engine the best so far. Everything looked very real: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXXOY2VmWB4

    For a name, how about, Compu-Global-Hyper-Mega-Net ?
  • Kyle_KatarnKyle_Katarn Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13489Members Posts: 6
    edited July 2008
    i must admit, after watching the last videocast, i thought they had changes engines, as they mentioned something about not being able to do it with the source engine but could now, great news smile-fix.gif

    Found it he says

    "In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"

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  • Matt ReganMatt Regan Join Date: 2008-03-23 Member: 63946Members, Retired Developer, NS2 Developer Posts: 41
    QUOTE(Kyle_Katarn @ Jul 11 2008, 05:14 PM) »
    i must admit, after watching the last videocast, i thought they had changes engines, as they mentioned something about not being able to do it with the source engine but could now, great news smile-fix.gif

    Found it he says

    "In source we used to use alot of brushes, in this we wont use that many"


    *shifty eyes* ...wasn't me...
  • Dalin SeivewrightDalin Seivewright 0x0000221E Join Date: 2007-10-20 Member: 62685Members, Constellation Posts: 504 Advanced user
    edited July 2008
    I've never really liked the Source engine, so good on you guys!
    You've given me some creative juice to finally getting around to making my own engine of some sort.
    Best of luck.

    Also, names for the engine. These have always been my favorite:
    --> Icarus
    --> Helios
    --> Daedalus
    --> Morpheus
    --> Sigma
    --> Orion

    Um... Anything greekish really.

    Firefly?

    Edit: Maximus!
    Bring Back Natural Selection 1
    QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Aug 3 2010, 01:02 PM) »
    I love stripping away commander to soldier relations and turning the game into a run to the hive and click mouse 1, and repeat till victory.
    While the commander plays his little rts game isolated from the rest of the team.
  • NSSlayerNSSlayer Join Date: 2006-11-12 Member: 58554Members Posts: 64
    Hmm... It sounds good, but i would be interested in specifications too, like which of the entities(multiplayer related) will be kept, and which of them will be erased. Will the basebrushes the same, or you add some new? Big changes in the already existing entities? Something new in the Texture application?

    The in/output system of the new hammer is almost perfect i think. Almost:D It was and is a weak point of hammer, that you cant modifie entities by your free will without making a new game. You alwasy talk about that Lua thing. Maybe you could use it in this way too.

    The biggest thing that im expecting from NS2 and source engine(i vote for Unknown engine, its cool cuz Unknown Worlds is a small company) is the new fancy brushentity system. I'm an old fashined mapper, so i dont think in models all the time. Solving problems with brushes are harder, and better:). So i'm bagging for the chance to build fancy elevators and trains dorrs etc which were impossible in NS or HL.

    I'm looking forfard for new infos:)

  • SqueeboSqueebo Join Date: 2008-02-04 Member: 63580Members Posts: 35
    This may sound a little shallow, but I'm a little worried about how the graphics are going to look with this new engine.

    Also, for the name, you could call it the UNKNOWNWORLDS Engine, The MAX Engine, The SKULK engine, or the Squeeboisamazing engine(My favorite, you've gotta use this one, guys.)
  • BigTextBigText Join Date: 2007-12-21 Member: 63231Members Posts: 103
    Unknown Engine? Natural Engine? Selection Engine?

    It seems pretty easy to come up with names. Hopefully you'll have decided by the next podcast!
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Members, Constellation Posts: 820 Fully active user
    QUOTE(BigText @ Jul 11 2008, 10:51 PM) »
    Unknown Engine? Natural Engine? Selection Engine?

    It seems pretty easy to come up with names. Hopefully you'll have decided by the next podcast!

    How about the Intelligent Design Engine... IDE?
  • SariselSarisel .::&#39; ( O ) &#39;;:-. .-.:;&#39; ( O ) &#39;::. Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18557Members, Constellation Posts: 2,192
    The bus engine.

    When major setbacks occur, companies often sugar-coat the event by playing out/exaggerating the positives. I'm hoping that this engine change really isn't a setback, but I can't help but feel uneasy based on what the community has been offered to see over the last year in terms of NS2's development. But hey, another 1-2 years is nothing as long as the investors are happy and the game ends up being a success.
  • BakerCoBakerCo Join Date: 2008-07-12 Member: 64610Members Posts: 5
    edited July 2008
    Engine name: The Glowy engine tounge.gif

    other names
    Spiral Engine
    Unknown Engine
    The Beast Engine
    Garage Engine
    MaxRay Engine

    or just the NS2 engine?


    Love the change and joined the forums just to say I love the idea and I am more excited now than before.
  • PlasmaPlasma Join Date: 2003-04-26 Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Posts: 605
    edited July 2008
    Cool announcement.

    It sure does sound like a good choice - the enthusiasm from the podcast with reasons on why a change was made and the progress so far sounds very promising.

    There's no point having all of source's features if you won't use them, or that its too hard to work with because you're having to conform to someone else's game design (CS:S/HL2).

    The podcasts showing off the texture viewer, level viewer and dynamic infestation, all looked really well done. Even though I don't know much about Max, I can tell he's pretty talented to be able to put that sort of stuff together so quickly.

    Max and Charlie, do you have any other plans for the engine that you are considering?

    As someone else mentioned, the idea of dynamic sounds based on distance sounds really cool.
    The thought of fog in NS2 appearing after a door opens sounds pretty sweet, or seeing slime drip off a rail.

    What other things are you considering for the engine that could help with the atmosphere in NS2?

    As for netcode, I heard you mention Tribes (awesome game) - If you have not read this article already, you may find it interesting.

    http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_ne...ing1/index.html

    It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.

    Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at http://www.opentnl.org/ which may be of interest too.

    As for engine names, perhaps something playing on Unknown Worlds / Natural Selection (synonyms?).
    Star engine, Natural engine (Adaptation of the engine to suit the environment smile-fix.gif )

    Looking forward to the next update guys!
  • 11k11k Join Date: 2007-11-17 Member: 62941Members Posts: 9
    Will this new engine "feel" the same as Source?

    Also, i thought you guys would have paid to license the source engine, so by starting on this new engine, aren't you throwing money away?
  • PogoPPogoP Environment Artist Join Date: 2004-01-31 Member: 25827Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation Posts: 455 Advanced user
    What do you mean by 'feel'? That could mean many things. I presume you mean player movement though?
  • matrim1985matrim1985 Join Date: 2008-07-05 Member: 64562Members Posts: 15
    edited July 2008
    This is huge news, just a couple quick question:

    where can you get the editor when its done?

    will there be an easy way to convert a hammer map to your editor?

    Also, how about the Onos Engine?
    > Processor : AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 3.01 GHz
    > Physical Memory : 6.0 GB (2 x 1 GB DDR2, 2 X 2 GB DDR2)
    > Video Card : ATI Radeon 4870HD
    > Video Memory : 1000 MB
    > Hard Disk : 1 TB (Seagate 500 GB raid 1)
    > Monitor Type : ViewSonic CRT 19 inch
    > Operating System : Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate SP2
    > DirectX : Version 10.1
    > Sound Card : C-Media PCI
    > Network : DSL over Wireless G
    > Human Interface : Mouse and Keyboard, X-Box 360 Wired Controller
  • exoityexoity Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14620Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation Posts: 608
    QUOTE(Squeebo @ Jul 11 2008, 11:05 PM) »
    This may sound a little shallow, but I'm a little worried about how the graphics are going to look with this new engine.


    I believe that the graphics will be great considering Max's contributions to the industry through his shader programming ability. I don't think that the graphics area would be an area of concern.
    NAPT : Former PT-Lead
    Game Developer.
  • CursedCursed Join Date: 2007-04-14 Member: 60632Members Posts: 23
    The Unknown Engine or
    Natural Selection Engine
    to put simply, doesn't sound as ambitious as "unknown engine" tounge.gif

    Anyways great to see you're taking steps to independency wherever its leading.
  • RadagastRadagast Join Date: 2003-06-29 Member: 17776Members, Constellation Posts: 341
    I'm going with BUS Engine personally.


    But what this shows me also is that when the engine is complete and successful (which I don't doubt at all), they can sell the engine and Unknown Worlds will grow even bigger!
    IPB Image
    IPB Image
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Members Posts: 151
    This is either going to be a great or horrible decision, I am honestly doubting the success of ns2 now. Not because I dont think max/flayra are capable, but that they actually have enough inhouse developers and more importantly the budget to be able to fully develop/test/support a custom engine. Where I work there is a core tech team of engineers who only work on the engine and have 0 input on the game itself. So I am a bit concerned about this decision but I hope it works out, because I agree source is a very time consuming development process with lots of headaches.

    I dont know technically how deep the ns2 design is but the fact it was mentioned using "3rd party mappers" to make the games maps and buying the best ones. I know I dont have time to learn another editor, so that is the biggest problem I can think when it comes to map development. Hopefully the similarities are close to hammer so the learning curve is not too big. I think if it's differences are more closely matched to unreal editor there are definitely going to be problems with trying to rely on community maps to purchase.

    The biggest concern I have however is more around the network code, I have to admit Valve does have some awesome network code when it comes to fpses, possibly the best. With all the network traffic associated with ns and ns2's gametype (rts elements/parasiting) it generates a ton of network traffic. I think this is going your biggest challenge, hopefully you have the budget to hire a full time network programmer because I think that is a full time job all in itself. Anyways, best of luck to you, I hope it all works out, I am a huge ns fan and am really looking forward to seeing ns2 like everyone else.
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    Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 1,599 Advanced user
    QUOTE(DooGie @ Jul 11 2008, 01:54 PM) »
    Yeah, now we can blame UWE when the bullets don't reg ;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

    Nothing, not even Max's leet coding skills, can make up for spanish loller connections ;D;D;D;D;D;D


  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 424 Fully active user
    Like [R8]DJBourgeoisie, it can be a very good news and a terrible news... I am doubting too now, but I hope it will be great smile-fix.gif

    I hope graphics will be better than Source, but what about the physic ? Nvidia PhysX ? Why do not use Havok ? Its probably the best physics engine of the world :/
    In NS1, no matter which class you are, you can feel really powerful and a threat to anyone, while being greatly threatened by anyone at the same time.
    In NS2, you just feel crappy against nearly everything, but at the same time, you feel as much crappy when the roles are reversed.

    This is what fun is about, feeling as an asset to the game, and feeling that you can change something.
  • GrandMoffVixenGrandMoffVixen Join Date: 2007-04-30 Member: 60765Members Posts: 20 Advanced user
    My biggest concern is steam. Will this game use it? I for one HATE steam. It is a good idea in concept but fails in that it has so many problems. Make your own content delivery system if you have to. I just don't want to use that bloated piece of crap.
  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 424 Fully active user
    edited July 2008
    Steam had a lot of problems at the beginning, but today and that makes for a long time, it is a GREAT tool for users and developpers wink-fix.gif
    For example, do you know what Steamworks ?



    By speaking about that, if you deliver NS2 with Steam, please, use Steamworks biggrin-fix.gif
    In NS1, no matter which class you are, you can feel really powerful and a threat to anyone, while being greatly threatened by anyone at the same time.
    In NS2, you just feel crappy against nearly everything, but at the same time, you feel as much crappy when the roles are reversed.

    This is what fun is about, feeling as an asset to the game, and feeling that you can change something.
  • Kyle_KatarnKyle_Katarn Join Date: 2003-02-13 Member: 13489Members Posts: 6
    Call it bob

    Short simple sweet
    Please Visit Xtg-C at www.xtg-c.co.uk
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer Posts: 1,733 admin
    QUOTE(Plasma @ Jul 11 2008, 10:25 PM) »
    As for netcode, I heard you mention Tribes (awesome game) - If you have not read this article already, you may find it interesting.

    http://www.garagegames.com/articles/gdc_ne...ing1/index.html

    It's an article by the Tribes developers describing the technology that they developed.

    Also you may be interested in the Garage Games Torque Network Library (Developed by the Tribes developers) and it is available at http://www.opentnl.org/ which may be of interest too.

    I looked at the Torque Network Library and RakNet when I started implementing the networking, since I figured they'd be good ways to save some effort. I did a partial implementation with Torque and a full implementation with RakNet (this was the one week network test we talked about in the podcast), but I couldn't get it to perform as well as I wanted. I think that might have been solvable, but since a multi-player only game lives and dies by its networking implementation, I really wanted to have a full understanding of every single line of code and the ability to tune everything. Natural Selection 2 (as well as NS1) has some difficult networking problems over most shooters as well, so I like the ability to customize the system for our needs.

    So I scrapped that and rewrote the networking code from scratch. The good thing about first-person shooter networking though, is that a lot of smart people have already put lot of work into developing algorithms and techniques to make it work well. Here are a few good sources for people who are interested in these things:
    The networking system isn't done, but it's totally usable and we've done internet tests between the US and Europe that were very encouraging.
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • killkrazykillkrazy Join Date: 2007-09-10 Member: 62238Members Posts: 202
    That sounds good.
    Now for our European spies to track down this agent of UWE operating there!

    Also, another push for the Darwin Engine... wink-fix.gif
  • Lt_HendricksonLt_Hendrickson Join Date: 2003-03-21 Member: 14761Members Posts: 692 Fully active user
    As simple as it is, I actually like the ring of 'the darwin engine' as someone else suggested.
    Time to lerkxor!
    lerk bite :)
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