sad, simplify game more and more. Q_Q
How about mine boosting, to allow marines to get into the vents/high places to destroy the tunnels.
Less amazing plays, more straightlining boredom; 201x game designing.
So the answer is to force marines to spend 15 pres or more and inordinate amounts of time depending on the location of said tunnel on what is essentially jack **** in order to flush out a single gorge tunnel entrance which costs 14 total pres, leaving them without any weapons when the advanced lifeforms hit the field?
@casan0vax I think you're right in every point - please note that I'm talking about clever tunnel placement, not imba placement. (I think that's mostly map issues, though.)
Maybe I went a bit far claiming it's the whole point
please note that I'm talking about clever tunnel placement, not imba placement.
My apologies! This thread is about the imba placements on Refinery, so I assumed you were referring to those placements as being "the point." I completely agree with you that clever/offensive/unexpected (but 'legal') placements are great and fun (I particularly like the dark little corridor/closet on the east side of Smelting).
sad, simplify game more and more. Q_Q
Less amazing plays, more straightlining boredom; 201x game designing.
Wait, I thought 201x game design was to cram as much fancy skill-less crap into one pretty looking game. Hmm different perceptions I guess. NS2, for the most part, is a breath of fresh air.
Not sure what you mean. Without falling from what ceiling? What hallway? Gorge has no problem reaching any vent with clogs.
Wasn't even referring to gorge tunnels. A vent directly above a powernode to a techpoint that a gorge can safetly bile bomb from is pretty dumb design.
try walking (hold shift) into this vent and you'll fall everytime.
regular running works fine but you cant silently enter it
Interesting and fun? Or do you mean bland and broken? Gorge tunnels are available at 0:00 into the game. Jetpacks aren't feasibly attainable until probably 8 or 9 minutes (unless ALL res is dumped into it, in which case probably around 5 minutes. But if you're dedicating that much res to get rid of one gorge tunnel, you've already lost the game).
Thus, a virtually unreachable gorge tunnel can completely deny marines access to an entire area of the map for basically the first 10 minutes, AKA the most crucial minutes, which basically guarantees an alien win. And even then, jetpacks aren't normally seen that early in pubs, as most competent commanders will go uprgades/phase gates first.
And don't give me this whole "use teamwork" rebuttal. You're giving pub players too much credit.
no, i meant "interesting and fun".
if youre dedicated to one gorge thats out of reach then you've already lost the game.
...last refinery game i played as rine there was a gorge out of reach in the cieling/rafters and i wasted res and time trying to kill him...once i decided to just leave it it was no longer a problem AND our pressure/presence elsewhere on the map forced the gorge to relocate and eventually he moved his tunnel or it was destroyed...no need to nerf tunnels/fun just learn to prioritize and make better decisions.
competitive or not, teamwork is key in this game - that's how it was designed.
there will always be a player on the other team thats better and smarter than you - that's not reason enough to nerf a fun feature.
...last refinery game i played as rine there was a gorge out of reach in the cieling/rafters and i wasted res and time trying to kill him...once i decided to just leave it it was no longer a problem AND our pressure/presence elsewhere on the map forced the gorge to relocate and eventually he moved his tunnel or it was destroyed...no need to nerf tunnels/fun just learn to prioritize and make better decisions.
So, this happened in one game? A highly aberrant occurrence, to say the least. I've played easily over eight refinery games where nearly half the marine team is sitting in Conduit trying to kill the gorge tunnel. Repeated attempts from the commander/me/other players with common sense to dissuade them from attacking the tunnel failed.
Sure, I've played the rare game or two where the tunnel proved inconsequential because of simply superior individual skill on marines and the pure happenstance of having actual smart players. But on the whole, again, you give average pub players too much credit. A coordinated marine team can easily overcome this, yes. But 9 times out of 10, they're highly uncoordinated. By the same token, an alien team that doesn't use the tunnel (and this happens with any tunnel, not just troll ones) is more likely to lose as well, which is normally the only way these tunnels prove ineffective (and that appears to be what happened in your game): their lack of usage. Because if they were actually used, aliens would, and should, win 100% of the time. If your alien opponents were "coordinated," they would have gone through the tunnel after your marine team "pressured elsewhere on the map" and just bamboozled your base and won.
In the end, winning or losing as marines on refinery against an alien team that utilizes these tunnels comes down to luck. But all things being equal, these tunnels shouldn't be allowed. They enable aliens to reinforce/amass across the map without the threat of counter-aggression, or losing that reinforcement location. Imagine marines being able to place phase gates in unreachable locations for aliens. There would be an uproar about the inability to turn the gate into a grinder, as marines could just pour through without having to worry about being turned into ground beef.
You're basically saying it's an L2P issue for marines, when in reality, it's a map exploit.
competitive or not, teamwork is key in this game - that's how it was designed.
True. But to your point, these maps weren't designed with exploitative tunnels in mind. If the mapper(s) had the foreknowledge to know these spots would allow such a nuisance, I can guarantee they would have changed it; but alas, all the maps (except descent and biodome) were made pre-tunnels. So they could not possibly have planned ahead for this. Thus, players go exploring, trying to find map geometry that would allow them to place these tunnels in the nigh-unreachable-spots that have, more or less, saturated public play and become 'the norm,' when they never should have seen the light of day to begin with.
And it appears that you didn't read my second post, because it's abundantly clear that countering these tunnels is nearly impossible to do early and mid-game, without resorting to ludicrously meticulous, expensive, and/or uncommon tactics (i.e. mine ladders, counter-strike stacks, etc.), which is the reason why there's such a fuss about it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@joohoo_n3d
Whoa whoa whoa..
"dedicated to one gorge "??
You do know other lifeforms use those tunnels, right? In fact all kinds pour through them, safely and easily securing whole portions of maps.
Your solution of ignoring it doesn't make the problem go away either - it just becomes more fortified and more difficult to remove, all the while safely providing rapid transport to the "mobile" team, furthering pressure and resources.
And as it keeps falling on deaf ears I'll back up Casanova here :
No amount of teamwork can overcome un reachable locations that early in a round.
Iol you you guys are not even trying to abuse... Fun fact build a gorge tunnel in turbin vent and it's infestation allows comm to drop structures in that vent...
And the only solution to solve this is to restrict gorge tunnels? First give them the freedom of being available from the start, and then even this out by restricting their positioning? Exciting gorge tunnel locations is all what they are about.
Just make gorge tunnels researchable again, to make them appear later into the game. Or increase gorge and tunnel price, if you really want to keep them from the start...
I agree with the fact that there are other ways to solve this. Restricting building locations is a piss poor idea that will only water the game down...
Gorge tunnels are fine. Jetpacks can be obtained within the 6 minute mark, Grenade launchers can be obtained within the first 2 or 3 minutes. Now if you want to stop tunnels from being in places where grenade launchers can't reach, and marines can't boost each other into the area either, that's fine. It makes sense. but don't go invalidating sneaky gorge tunnels because of a handful of places where they're "Too difficult" to kill.
Here is some real abuse...
Lols... and you thought GT were bad, just wait till the comm jumps in and helps AAHAHHHAHA
the vast majority of those can be taken out with grenade launchers. Quite easily as well. not to mention with how cramped it is it'll be hard for aliens to even move around to escape the explosions.
I really don't see the problem with 90% of the tunnels you people are talking about. all of the ones on docking and veil can be reached by a team lift or through grenade launchers, only one or possibly two on Refinery that I can think of would be a pain. and if you expect trouble, just go early jetpacks.
Seriously? Gorge tunnels are fine and don't need to be nerfed. If anything, players should be able to stick them on walls and ceilings.
Marines have several options at their disposal to destroy a tunnel like nades, GL and JP. If they can't sort them out using those then they obviously aren't playing good enough.
Seriously? Gorge tunnels are fine and don't need to be nerfed. If anything, players should be able to stick them on walls and ceilings.
Marines have several options at their disposal to destroy a tunnel like nades, GL and JP. If they can't sort them out using those then they obviously aren't playing good enough.
Clearly you haven't ready any of the replies in this thread.
Just wait 6 minutes and spend 105 tres + 15 pres per marine and rush jetpacks to deal with a couple of ~15 res gorge tunnels put down in the first minute guys. Marines don't need to worry about having good armor and weapon ups when higher lifeforms come out, nope. Balanced spending/research time for proper counters shouldn't matter in this game, nope. And it's not like those gorge tunnels are doing anything important in that 6 minute time frame where you're researching jets, like say denying the res/map control you need to rush those jetpacks. Just adapt and be creative like the gorge that memorized a good spot for a tunnel. Maybe you can mine ju- oh they removed that...
So the answer is to force marines to spend 15 pres or more and inordinate amounts of time depending on the location of said tunnel on what is essentially jack **** in order to flush out a single gorge tunnel entrance which costs 14 total pres, leaving them without any weapons when the advanced lifeforms hit the field?
Sorry, but that's not a real solution.
With 1 pack of mines 1 marine can reach any vent. That's about the same pres amount and time used as the gorge that put down the tunnels.
do you even mine ladder?
Seriously? Gorge tunnels are fine and don't need to be nerfed. If anything, players should be able to stick them on walls and ceilings.
Marines have several options at their disposal to destroy a tunnel like nades, GL and JP. If they can't sort them out using those then they obviously aren't playing good enough.
Clearly you haven't ready any of the replies in this thread.
@joohoo_n3d
Whoa whoa whoa..
"dedicated to one gorge "??
You do know other lifeforms use those tunnels, right? In fact all kinds pour through them, safely and easily securing whole portions of maps.
Your solution of ignoring it doesn't make the problem go away either - it just becomes more fortified and more difficult to remove, all the while safely providing rapid transport to the "mobile" team, furthering pressure and resources.
And as it keeps falling on deaf ears I'll back up Casanova here :
No amount of teamwork can overcome un reachable locations that early in a round.
"Whoa whoa whoa.. "
My comments reflect my personal experience - me against a gorge and his tunnel. Not many of his teammates were using the tunnel (3 others at the most). Anyway, my point is it's best not to become fixated on this one harassment technique as all it does is slow the rines down to defending and allows aliens to more easily gain real-estate and rt's. 1 gorge tunnel being used by a fraction of the alien team to attack a single rt/room is a drop in the bucket of a game being played on all of refinery.
So what I'm saying is in the opening game if this is a problem you have to decide will it be best for your team to get bogged down there or outside the hive?
I say screw it! Move on. Cap resources, kill harvesters, kill other aliens, pressure the hive, snipe upgrades...these things will bring the gorge back or their team will suffer and likely lose.
This is not every game.
Everyone plays how they choose to play so my choices arent always the best but theyve always worked for me.
Some aliens can work together as team and gorge tunnels help them move about very quickly...and if thats the case the only option is for the marines to work together even better than the aliens.
That's it
Regarding your fear of a gorge tunnel up in a high unreachable space becoming more and more fortified...that doesn't really happen. they cant get whips up there, crags are on the ground and easily taken out...they become less fortified than a gorge tunnel at a tech point where the alien comm can safely drop structures...that's not happening in vents or anywhere above the ground floor. so i say screw him...ill go get res/harvesters and pressure the hive
Because JPs and GLs are unreasonably attainable by the time these gorge tunnels are in place, i.e., within the first minute of the game. Go back and read.
You climb to the top of the ladder, jump to the pipe on the right, ta da, top of the walkway.
Agree w/ Jekt about that vent over the power node, the mapper even added a fucken cover to it?? Was this to protect the gorge bile bombing from the marine base below or what? How high do you have to be to get a job mapping refinery or docking these days.
I say screw it! Move on. Cap resources, kill harvesters, kill other aliens, pressure the hive, snipe upgrades...these things will bring the gorge back or their team will suffer and likely lose.
And it's not like those gorge tunnels are doing anything important in that 6 minute time frame where you're researching jets, like say denying the res/map control you need to rush those jetpacks.
Also, I believe you are not accounting for what benefits such gorge tunnel placements afford the alien team.
A) 3-4 second travel time across the map, even directly to the enemy's base sometimes Effectively avoiding any marine defense they would otherwise encounter as well as areas where marines are attempting to aggressively "zone" aliens
C) Thus providing constant effective harassment to Marine economy with ease (RTs and other structures)
D) Creating a constant state of fragility to marine base, where they cannot leave without incredibly quick reaction time from aliens
E) Discouraging marines from building in certain portions of the map, (Just as you suggest) and thus denying resources to them.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
Edit: Again, I would still much rather have Gorge Tunnels be researched by Khamm again.. I still have no clue why this was ever done.. its not intuitive and i never heard anyone suggest it or say it was needed? It has just created problems and is now going to lead to watering down creative gameplay as a result :-/
Because JPs and GLs are unreasonably attainable by the time these gorge tunnels are in place, i.e., within the first minute of the game. Go back and read.
What don't you know how to use nades until then? Go play the game. Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes so why shouldn't gorge tunnels.
Because JPs and GLs are unreasonably attainable by the time these gorge tunnels are in place, i.e., within the first minute of the game. Go back and read.
What don't you know how to use nades until then? Go play the game. Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes so why shouldn't gorge tunnels.
Aliens already move faster than marines and a hidden tunnel is 10x harder to kill than a phase gate. They also cost negligible pres (for a Gorge player) instead of 40 tres.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
You talk about Imbalance while a single, good JP marine can kill a hive by himselfe? Marines can use tunnels too (if not at unreachable spots). Marines can constantly harass cyst-chains, ever thought about how annoying that is and noone is complaining?! You could also compare Phasegate to Tunnels: Aliens can't use PG, a PG teleports instantly, PG has way more HP (a single skulk can forget to kill a PG, a single Marine gets the GT down quite fast).
You wan't to cut down harass possabilites and force Aliens to harass only with Skulks killing RT's? How boring that'd be.
I can fully agree with putting the GT back into the research tree, but keep the good GT spots seriously. If GT is placed back in the research tree, Skulks need a redesign too. Otherwise it'd be gg for Marines in 10 mins.
Look how the pub early-game is for Alien thesedays: More than half of the team goes instant Gorge because beeing Skulk sux so hard.
Because JPs and GLs are unreasonably attainable by the time these gorge tunnels are in place, i.e., within the first minute of the game. Go back and read.
What don't you know how to use nades until then? Go play the game. Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes so why shouldn't gorge tunnels.
Handgrenades don't do nearly enough damage to take out a gorge tunnel, unless you want to drain half of your teams pres. And marines can't put PGs where aliens can not reach them.
Comments
How about mine boosting, to allow marines to get into the vents/high places to destroy the tunnels.
Less amazing plays, more straightlining boredom; 201x game designing.
Sorry, but that's not a real solution.
Maybe I went a bit far claiming it's the whole point
Wait, I thought 201x game design was to cram as much fancy skill-less crap into one pretty looking game. Hmm different perceptions I guess. NS2, for the most part, is a breath of fresh air.
try walking (hold shift) into this vent and you'll fall everytime.
regular running works fine but you cant silently enter it
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5019629/uploads/FileUpload/8a/1cf89a79e2bca08cddd42d33a65e11.jpg" />
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130472/rework-gorge-tunnel-hitbox-or-model-animation#latest
Good luck trying to take this one out.
@ the above; it's doubtful
if youre dedicated to one gorge thats out of reach then you've already lost the game.
...last refinery game i played as rine there was a gorge out of reach in the cieling/rafters and i wasted res and time trying to kill him...once i decided to just leave it it was no longer a problem AND our pressure/presence elsewhere on the map forced the gorge to relocate and eventually he moved his tunnel or it was destroyed...no need to nerf tunnels/fun just learn to prioritize and make better decisions.
competitive or not, teamwork is key in this game - that's how it was designed.
there will always be a player on the other team thats better and smarter than you - that's not reason enough to nerf a fun feature.
Sure, I've played the rare game or two where the tunnel proved inconsequential because of simply superior individual skill on marines and the pure happenstance of having actual smart players. But on the whole, again, you give average pub players too much credit. A coordinated marine team can easily overcome this, yes. But 9 times out of 10, they're highly uncoordinated. By the same token, an alien team that doesn't use the tunnel (and this happens with any tunnel, not just troll ones) is more likely to lose as well, which is normally the only way these tunnels prove ineffective (and that appears to be what happened in your game): their lack of usage. Because if they were actually used, aliens would, and should, win 100% of the time. If your alien opponents were "coordinated," they would have gone through the tunnel after your marine team "pressured elsewhere on the map" and just bamboozled your base and won.
In the end, winning or losing as marines on refinery against an alien team that utilizes these tunnels comes down to luck. But all things being equal, these tunnels shouldn't be allowed. They enable aliens to reinforce/amass across the map without the threat of counter-aggression, or losing that reinforcement location. Imagine marines being able to place phase gates in unreachable locations for aliens. There would be an uproar about the inability to turn the gate into a grinder, as marines could just pour through without having to worry about being turned into ground beef.
You're basically saying it's an L2P issue for marines, when in reality, it's a map exploit.
True. But to your point, these maps weren't designed with exploitative tunnels in mind. If the mapper(s) had the foreknowledge to know these spots would allow such a nuisance, I can guarantee they would have changed it; but alas, all the maps (except descent and biodome) were made pre-tunnels. So they could not possibly have planned ahead for this. Thus, players go exploring, trying to find map geometry that would allow them to place these tunnels in the nigh-unreachable-spots that have, more or less, saturated public play and become 'the norm,' when they never should have seen the light of day to begin with.
And it appears that you didn't read my second post, because it's abundantly clear that countering these tunnels is nearly impossible to do early and mid-game, without resorting to ludicrously meticulous, expensive, and/or uncommon tactics (i.e. mine ladders, counter-strike stacks, etc.), which is the reason why there's such a fuss about it.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130515/can-we-do-something-about-ridiculous-gorge-tunnel-locations/p1
Whoa whoa whoa..
"dedicated to one gorge "??
You do know other lifeforms use those tunnels, right? In fact all kinds pour through them, safely and easily securing whole portions of maps.
Your solution of ignoring it doesn't make the problem go away either - it just becomes more fortified and more difficult to remove, all the while safely providing rapid transport to the "mobile" team, furthering pressure and resources.
And as it keeps falling on deaf ears I'll back up Casanova here :
No amount of teamwork can overcome un reachable locations that early in a round.
Lol...
In chasm, and you thought that GT above was bad
Lol smelting gorge fort...
Kinda outside the map but it cloaks the tunnel
Lols... and you thought GT were bad, just wait till the comm jumps in and helps AAHAHHHAHA
I really don't see the problem with 90% of the tunnels you people are talking about. all of the ones on docking and veil can be reached by a team lift or through grenade launchers, only one or possibly two on Refinery that I can think of would be a pain. and if you expect trouble, just go early jetpacks.
Marines have several options at their disposal to destroy a tunnel like nades, GL and JP. If they can't sort them out using those then they obviously aren't playing good enough.
do you even mine ladder?
Yeah whys that?
My comments reflect my personal experience - me against a gorge and his tunnel. Not many of his teammates were using the tunnel (3 others at the most). Anyway, my point is it's best not to become fixated on this one harassment technique as all it does is slow the rines down to defending and allows aliens to more easily gain real-estate and rt's. 1 gorge tunnel being used by a fraction of the alien team to attack a single rt/room is a drop in the bucket of a game being played on all of refinery.
So what I'm saying is in the opening game if this is a problem you have to decide will it be best for your team to get bogged down there or outside the hive?
I say screw it! Move on. Cap resources, kill harvesters, kill other aliens, pressure the hive, snipe upgrades...these things will bring the gorge back or their team will suffer and likely lose.
This is not every game.
Everyone plays how they choose to play so my choices arent always the best but theyve always worked for me.
Some aliens can work together as team and gorge tunnels help them move about very quickly...and if thats the case the only option is for the marines to work together even better than the aliens.
That's it
Regarding your fear of a gorge tunnel up in a high unreachable space becoming more and more fortified...that doesn't really happen. they cant get whips up there, crags are on the ground and easily taken out...they become less fortified than a gorge tunnel at a tech point where the alien comm can safely drop structures...that's not happening in vents or anywhere above the ground floor. so i say screw him...ill go get res/harvesters and pressure the hive
You climb to the top of the ladder, jump to the pipe on the right, ta da, top of the walkway.
Agree w/ Jekt about that vent over the power node, the mapper even added a fucken cover to it?? Was this to protect the gorge bile bombing from the marine base below or what? How high do you have to be to get a job mapping refinery or docking these days.
Also, I believe you are not accounting for what benefits such gorge tunnel placements afford the alien team.
A) 3-4 second travel time across the map, even directly to the enemy's base sometimes
C) Thus providing constant effective harassment to Marine economy with ease (RTs and other structures)
D) Creating a constant state of fragility to marine base, where they cannot leave without incredibly quick reaction time from aliens
E) Discouraging marines from building in certain portions of the map, (Just as you suggest) and thus denying resources to them.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
Edit: Again, I would still much rather have Gorge Tunnels be researched by Khamm again.. I still have no clue why this was ever done.. its not intuitive and i never heard anyone suggest it or say it was needed? It has just created problems and is now going to lead to watering down creative gameplay as a result :-/
What don't you know how to use nades until then? Go play the game. Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes so why shouldn't gorge tunnels.
Aliens already move faster than marines and a hidden tunnel is 10x harder to kill than a phase gate. They also cost negligible pres (for a Gorge player) instead of 40 tres.
You wan't to cut down harass possabilites and force Aliens to harass only with Skulks killing RT's? How boring that'd be.
I can fully agree with putting the GT back into the research tree, but keep the good GT spots seriously. If GT is placed back in the research tree, Skulks need a redesign too. Otherwise it'd be gg for Marines in 10 mins.
Look how the pub early-game is for Alien thesedays: More than half of the team goes instant Gorge because beeing Skulk sux so hard.
Handgrenades don't do nearly enough damage to take out a gorge tunnel, unless you want to drain half of your teams pres. And marines can't put PGs where aliens can not reach them.