@ironhorse i do understand what youre saying and you aint lying man! ive seen aliens play against marines in the early game very well using tunnels but its just not like that in the majority of the games i play.
dont worry, as soon as there is a true gameplay issue they will fix it but if we arent all having the same issues then its not really a balance issue its just varying opinions on whats fun.
...some people think skulks are too hard some people think onos are too hard others think jetpacks are overpowered but these are opinions not balance issues...at least, thats my opinion
Here is some real abuse...
In chasm, and you thought that GT above was bad
Lol smelting gorge fort...
Kinda outside the map but it cloaks the tunnel
Lols... and you thought GT were bad, just wait till the comm jumps in and helps AAHAHHHAHA
@maD_maX_ that's not real abuse - only one of those tunnels is usable for an onos.
Also, I believe you are not accounting for what benefits such gorge tunnel placements afford the alien team.
A) 3-4 second travel time across the map, even directly to the enemy's base sometimes Effectively avoiding any marine defense they would otherwise encounter as well as areas where marines are attempting to aggressively "zone" aliens
C) Thus providing constant effective harassment to Marine economy with ease (RTs and other structures)
D) Creating a constant state of fragility to marine base, where they cannot leave without incredibly quick reaction time from aliens
E) Discouraging marines from building in certain portions of the map, (Just as you suggest) and thus denying resources to them.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
Edit: Again, I would still much rather have Gorge Tunnels be researched by Khamm again.. I still have no clue why this was ever done.. its not intuitive and i never heard anyone suggest it or say it was needed? It has just created problems and is now going to lead to watering down creative gameplay as a result :-/
This.
P.S
No matter what everyone says behind your back, I'll always love you Iron.
@maD_maX_ that's not real abuse - only one of those tunnels is usable for an onos.
The only way a tunnel can really be abusive is if it ruins the early game by making the alien team way too mobile. If you have onos in the early game, well shit, just go win already.
A) 3-4 second travel time across the map, even directly to the enemy's base sometimes Effectively avoiding any marine defense they would otherwise encounter as well as areas where marines are attempting to aggressively "zone" aliens
C) Thus providing constant effective harassment to Marine economy with ease (RTs and other structures)
D) Creating a constant state of fragility to marine base, where they cannot leave without incredibly quick reaction time from aliens
E) Discouraging marines from building in certain portions of the map, (Just as you suggest) and thus denying resources to them.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
Again a phase gate... Except that a PG can NEVER be used by aliens, so I guess PG is imbalanced.
PG also provide
- instant travel
- no aliens to use
- - can't chase the 1 hp rine once he phases
- 1 gate connects to all gates
- - no fake unconnected gates
- - can get from any gate to any other gate
If a space looks like it could fit a GT why shouldn't it? Honestly I'm mostly annoyed that the big vent from double on mineshaft can't have GT, it's huge...
A) 3-4 second travel time across the map, even directly to the enemy's base sometimes Effectively avoiding any marine defense they would otherwise encounter as well as areas where marines are attempting to aggressively "zone" aliens
C) Thus providing constant effective harassment to Marine economy with ease (RTs and other structures)
D) Creating a constant state of fragility to marine base, where they cannot leave without incredibly quick reaction time from aliens
E) Discouraging marines from building in certain portions of the map, (Just as you suggest) and thus denying resources to them.
Basically, its a hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever.. (since you cant even get to the tunnel to ambush the hive as a marine)
AKA: Imbalanced.
Again a phase gate... Except that a PG can NEVER be used by aliens, so I guess PG is imbalanced.
PG also provide
- instant travel
- no aliens to use
- - can't chase the 1 hp rine once he phases
- 1 gate connects to all gates
- - no fake unconnected gates
- - can get from any gate to any other gate
If a space looks like it could fit a GT why shouldn't it? Honestly I'm mostly annoyed that the big vent from double on mineshaft can't have GT, it's huge...
You're missing the point. You can always counter a PG, no matter how early in the game they may pop up, and no matter the place a comm drops them, because you can always simply walk up to it and bite it down with the basic lifeform. You can not however counter an unreachable gorge tunnel as easily without mid-late game tech (ARCs, JPs, GLs...), which is the problem that's being discussed.
What don't you know how to use nades until then? Go play the game. Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes so why shouldn't gorge tunnels.
lol you're telling me to play the game. That's cute. Neoken already set you straight, but @Kalopsia, have you used grenades in NS2? It's already impossible to throw it down even a moderately narrow hallway without it bouncing off some invisible wall because of gigantic collision hitboxes. Have fun throwing it into a vent or a place that rifle's can't even hit WITH line of sight. And I almost forgot. Your "argument." Phase gates are possible within the first few minutes, yes, you're right. But they REQUIRE AN ARMORY, OBS, AND RESEARCH to unlock. Gorge tunnels are available as soon as the game begins. And even so, this isn't about gorge tunnels vs. phase gates. It's about gorge tunnels placed in exploitative, unreachable locations. Please, again, read the thread. You're making yourself look ignorant.
@maD_maX_ you're missing the entire point of @IronHorse's response. Of course tunnels are a corollary to phase gates. The problem is this: if there's a phase gate set up in the Alien natural, all they have to do is group up and take it out. It's that simple.
If the marines start in Smelting and a gorge tunnel is placed up in the pipes in Conduit, marines cannot reasonably group up and take it out. Hence the imbalanced nature of it. They will just have to live with aliens constantly pouring out of the tunnel, effectively denying not only conduit, but the entire north side of the map.
Everyone here is missing the point. Marines do have viable counters for this. The problem is, attempting to research those counters (ARCs, GLs, Jetpacks) basically requires marines to abandon any other tech research since they need to dump ALL their pres into countering a single exploitative gorge tunnel.
I cannot fathom how people are still defending this as balanced in the slightest.
I wish there was a location on a map where a phase gate could be placed and aliens couldn't reach it. The response from the exploit-tunnel defenders would be rich.
Everyone here is missing the point. Marines do have viable counters for this. The problem is, attempting to research those counters (ARCs, GLs, Jetpacks) basically requires marines to abandon any other tech research since they need to dump ALL their pres into countering a single exploitative gorge tunnel.
I'm not a big fan of really ridiculous GT places (like landing pad, one I hate the most), but even if you are 'forced' to research some tech, it's still not a single-use anti-GT tech, you can still use it against aliens.
It's like early exos might force bilebomb, or early arcs might force shade hive, even if that is not what you planned.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited October 2013
@mad_max
They are not mirrored by PGs.
I'm sorry, but you ARE missing the point still:
Any alien can reach any PG and contest it's existence without the team dumping large amounts of Pres, Tres, and much needed focus and tactical decisions to deal with one individual's "Hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever".
The ONLY valid point of contention is "should aliens be able to put GT in hard to kill places?"
*facepalm*.................... That's what this thread is about.................
Also "hard to kill" is a bit of an understatement, isn't it? This isn't a Cragged whip wall. This is an unreachable location on the map that marines can do nothing about until ~7 minutes into the game - IF they happen to dump their entire economy and strategy into it.
I feel like people are just clicking on the thread, breezing a few posts, then jumping right into comparing PG and GT without actually reading the issue being discussed...
Please see @casan0vax 's response above for more information.
I'm not a big fan of really ridiculous GT places (like landing pad, one I hate the most), but even if you are 'forced' to research some tech, it's still not a single-use anti-GT tech, you can still use it against aliens.
It's like early exos might force bilebomb, or early arcs might force shade hive, even if that is not what you planned.
@xen32 you're absolutely correct--GLs/JPs/ARCs all have viability beyond gorge tunnels. But how reasonable is it to rush any one of these counters in under 5 minutes? You don't normally see any of these options rushed on public servers, even by the most clueless comms.
And your second point is correct, as well. Yes, marines can force aliens to go down a certain tech path... but ARCs and Exos can be countered without bilebomb, right? Lerk spikes are deadly efficient against exos, skulk packs are a nightmare, etc. Exos and ARCs can still be stopped by an alien assault devoid of bilebomb or ink clouds. These tunnels in question, however, are, for the most part, unreasonably difficult to destroy as a marine team in the early/mid-game. Which is the point of this movement to get rid of them.
Again, you're completely right in both respects! But this is about tech timing and balance more so than the actual viability of specific tech at different points in the game.
@mad_max
They are not mirrored by PGs.
I'm sorry, but you ARE missing the point still: Any alien can reach any PG and contest it's existence without the team dumping large amounts of Pres, Tres, and much needed focus and tactical decisions to deal with one individual's "Hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever".
I can set up phase gates in an area where an onos cannot reach, I can also mine the vent openings so that it's impossible for a skulk or lerk to get through. and even gorges will take time to get to it since they'd have to drop numerous clogs to even reach the vent.
Or you could try, you know... ARCING the tunnel. don't they exist for this very purpose? I just don't understand. Hell. isn't this the VERY reason they nerfed shades into the ground? Because ink could counter arcing? Even though inking is expensive as hell and requires the aliens to hold at least 3 resource towers to break even from it? even then that'd severely slow down the TRES economy. they still feel the need to nerf it almost every balance patch. But scanning is practically untouched?
This is a L2P issue. If the enemy has an entrenched or hard to reach position. Grenade launchers, flamethrowers, or arcs. all of these can be out within the 3 minute mark. If you go for jetpacks, 6 minutes.
"But that's not viable!" It is viable. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers don't scale with weapon upgrades, and the price of dropping an arms lab + a tier1 upgrade is roughly the same price as creating a robot factory and a arc. in fact, you can get all of this out before the aliens can even get bile bomb.
Unless arcs have some weird inability to target on a Y-axis. which would just be a game design flaw.
All I play is gorge and lerk, and sometimes the occasional onos. Because the skulk is garbage and the fade just herpderp dead in 3 shells, 55-60 res gone.
Also: Alien Khammander doesn't need anymore damn res sinks. Biomass, purchasing the lifeform upgrades, and needing to drop 3 of a upgrade structure to get full benefits is just irritating. then a hive dies and you need to spend what? 105? more res just to get the hive and biomass back.
Just increase gorge tunnel cost for gorges if absolutely needed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Oh really, you can set up a PG just by yourself, build it yourself and all, 20 seconds into a round and completely impervious to the enemy team? And you can do this on most maps?
No?
Oh.. Then I think that comparison doesn't hold up.
Seriously people, I get if you aren't running into this issue, but please at least read the thread to understand what its discussing. Anecdotally... I'm experiencing this 30% of the games I play.
Oh really, you can set up a PG just by yourself, build it yourself and all, 20 seconds into a round and completely impervious to the enemy team? And you can do this on most maps?
No?
Oh.. Then I think that comparison doesn't hold up.
Seriously people, I get if you aren't running into this issue, but please at least read the thread to understand what its discussing. Anecdotally... I'm experiencing this 30% of the games I play.
to be fair it takes about 2-3 minutes to get it up into a sneaky place and back to base, and quite a bit of luck that you don't die on your way back. and I've encountered it quite a few times.. I've simply used arcs to clear it out. I've only seen a single alien khammander use ink to stop the arcs. That being said i don't have 1200 hours of playtime because of how frustrating marine jump spam is. I'd much rather see that fixed than more alien nerfs.
i don't have 1200 hours of playtime because of how frustrating marine jump spam is. I'd much rather see that fixed than more alien nerfs.
lmao. The world according to Krovakon:
Exploit Gorge Tunnels = L2P issue for marines.
Marine Jump = Broken and unfair for aliens.
If anything is L2P, it's the basics of the game, i.e., killing marines. It's really not that hard. Here's a hint: stop spamming jump as a skulk when you're engaging marines.
I can set up phase gates in an area where an onos cannot reach
Also, TIL that Onos are required to kill phase gates.
Seriously, though, what does this have to do with anything? Can skulks still reach it? Can bilebomb still reach it? Can lerks still reach it? I don't even know the spot you're talking about, but I can guarantee the answer to all of the above is: yes.
to be fair it takes about 2-3 minutes to get it up into a sneaky place and back to base.
On refinery I can get to conduit, gestate to gorge, and fully build a GT in 30 seconds - from any starting hive.
On docking I can get to landing pad, gestate to gorge, and fully build a GT in 40 seconds - from any starting hive.
I stopped testing any further than that because i realized its the same for just about any map..
And the time it takes to get back to the hive as a gorge, at most was 30 seconds, meaning i can get an exploiting tunnel in most maps up and operational in 1 minute..
This is not a L2P issue.
to be fair it takes about 2-3 minutes to get it up into a sneaky place and back to base.
On refinery I can get to conduit, gestate to gorge, and fully build a GT in 30 seconds - from any starting hive.
On docking I can get to landing pad, gestate to gorge, and fully build a GT in 40 seconds - from any starting hive.
I stopped testing any further than that because i realized its the same for just about any map..
And the time it takes to get back to the hive as a gorge, at most was 30 seconds, meaning i can get an exploiting tunnel in most maps up and operational in 1 minute..
This is not a L2P issue.
Clearly we have been misjudging all those green marines who hop in the command chair and immediately drop a robo, truly they are visionaries always ready to get ARCs at any moment to counter those nasty gorge tunnels. Upgrades be damned we need 2min ARCs!
But really, there are some locations that I feel some people are overreacting to as they can be reached with a few jumps but there are also some really exploitative locations for gorge tunnels that should probably be done away with. I am very interested to know exactly how UWE plans to "fix" this and hope their method does not compromise some of the very good legitimate and creative gorge tunnels.
Dont change gorge tunnels, change the map. If you can build a GT behind an invisible wall, thats the maps fault. By restricting gorge tunnels you limit mappers and tactics, if some of these spots are deemed "exploits" instead of simply "cheep/lame" then the mapper can run a pipe through it so the GT doesn't fit.
Dont change gorge tunnels, change the map. If you can build a GT behind an invisible wall, thats the maps fault. By restricting gorge tunnels you limit mappers and tactics, if some of these spots are deemed "exploits" instead of simply "cheep/lame" then the mapper can run a pipe through it so the GT doesn't fit.
This is the solution I am kind of leaning towards too. Of course doing it on a case-by-case basis is best but it is also unfortunately the fix that would likely be the most time consuming.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
That is the change josh.
@mad_max , no offense but i dont think you are getting it still. There's no "restricting tactics" that's been mentioned beyond universally removing these exploitive locations.
@crymeariver. I don't think adding a pointless cosmetic prop would take more then 30 seconds. There are only 10 or so locations that are issues, and whether all or some of these locations are exploits is clearly debatable. As such a case by case fix is preferable to just the blanket statement of "no interesting tunnels"
Comments
dont worry, as soon as there is a true gameplay issue they will fix it but if we arent all having the same issues then its not really a balance issue its just varying opinions on whats fun.
...some people think skulks are too hard some people think onos are too hard others think jetpacks are overpowered but these are opinions not balance issues...at least, thats my opinion
That's true for most "abusive" tunnels.
This.
P.S
No matter what everyone says behind your back, I'll always love you Iron.
The only way a tunnel can really be abusive is if it ruins the early game by making the alien team way too mobile. If you have onos in the early game, well shit, just go win already.
You just described a phase gate,
Again a phase gate... Except that a PG can NEVER be used by aliens, so I guess PG is imbalanced.
PG also provide
- instant travel
- no aliens to use
- - can't chase the 1 hp rine once he phases
- 1 gate connects to all gates
- - no fake unconnected gates
- - can get from any gate to any other gate
If a space looks like it could fit a GT why shouldn't it? Honestly I'm mostly annoyed that the big vent from double on mineshaft can't have GT, it's huge...
Guys. Arcs? You can clear all the tunnels no matter where they are using arcs. (and then use them for even greater good)
You're missing the point. You can always counter a PG, no matter how early in the game they may pop up, and no matter the place a comm drops them, because you can always simply walk up to it and bite it down with the basic lifeform. You can not however counter an unreachable gorge tunnel as easily without mid-late game tech (ARCs, JPs, GLs...), which is the problem that's being discussed.
@maD_maX_ you're missing the entire point of @IronHorse's response. Of course tunnels are a corollary to phase gates. The problem is this: if there's a phase gate set up in the Alien natural, all they have to do is group up and take it out. It's that simple.
If the marines start in Smelting and a gorge tunnel is placed up in the pipes in Conduit, marines cannot reasonably group up and take it out. Hence the imbalanced nature of it. They will just have to live with aliens constantly pouring out of the tunnel, effectively denying not only conduit, but the entire north side of the map.
Everyone here is missing the point. Marines do have viable counters for this. The problem is, attempting to research those counters (ARCs, GLs, Jetpacks) basically requires marines to abandon any other tech research since they need to dump ALL their pres into countering a single exploitative gorge tunnel.
I cannot fathom how people are still defending this as balanced in the slightest.
I wish there was a location on a map where a phase gate could be placed and aliens couldn't reach it. The response from the exploit-tunnel defenders would be rich.
I'm not a big fan of really ridiculous GT places (like landing pad, one I hate the most), but even if you are 'forced' to research some tech, it's still not a single-use anti-GT tech, you can still use it against aliens.
It's like early exos might force bilebomb, or early arcs might force shade hive, even if that is not what you planned.
The ONLY valid point of contention is "should aliens be able to put GT in hard to kill places?"
As this is an asymmetrical game there is no clear answer and both sides are valid and defendable.
PG are inherently more powerful then gorge tunnels in every way EXCEPT placement. So perhaps placement is the balanc.
They are not mirrored by PGs.
I'm sorry, but you ARE missing the point still:
Any alien can reach any PG and contest it's existence without the team dumping large amounts of Pres, Tres, and much needed focus and tactical decisions to deal with one individual's "Hugely rewarding mechanic with incredibly low cost and no counter or risk whatsoever".
*facepalm*.................... That's what this thread is about.................
Also "hard to kill" is a bit of an understatement, isn't it? This isn't a Cragged whip wall. This is an unreachable location on the map that marines can do nothing about until ~7 minutes into the game - IF they happen to dump their entire economy and strategy into it.
I feel like people are just clicking on the thread, breezing a few posts, then jumping right into comparing PG and GT without actually reading the issue being discussed...
Please see @casan0vax 's response above for more information.
Possibly (probably?) because these are the people gaining the most and losing the least from these exploits.
Forums are run on Spark engine. 'Nuff said.
And your second point is correct, as well. Yes, marines can force aliens to go down a certain tech path... but ARCs and Exos can be countered without bilebomb, right? Lerk spikes are deadly efficient against exos, skulk packs are a nightmare, etc. Exos and ARCs can still be stopped by an alien assault devoid of bilebomb or ink clouds. These tunnels in question, however, are, for the most part, unreasonably difficult to destroy as a marine team in the early/mid-game. Which is the point of this movement to get rid of them.
Again, you're completely right in both respects! But this is about tech timing and balance more so than the actual viability of specific tech at different points in the game.
Or you could try, you know... ARCING the tunnel. don't they exist for this very purpose? I just don't understand. Hell. isn't this the VERY reason they nerfed shades into the ground? Because ink could counter arcing? Even though inking is expensive as hell and requires the aliens to hold at least 3 resource towers to break even from it? even then that'd severely slow down the TRES economy. they still feel the need to nerf it almost every balance patch. But scanning is practically untouched?
This is a L2P issue. If the enemy has an entrenched or hard to reach position. Grenade launchers, flamethrowers, or arcs. all of these can be out within the 3 minute mark. If you go for jetpacks, 6 minutes.
"But that's not viable!" It is viable. Grenade launchers and flamethrowers don't scale with weapon upgrades, and the price of dropping an arms lab + a tier1 upgrade is roughly the same price as creating a robot factory and a arc. in fact, you can get all of this out before the aliens can even get bile bomb.
Unless arcs have some weird inability to target on a Y-axis. which would just be a game design flaw.
All I play is gorge and lerk, and sometimes the occasional onos. Because the skulk is garbage and the fade just herpderp dead in 3 shells, 55-60 res gone.
Also: Alien Khammander doesn't need anymore damn res sinks. Biomass, purchasing the lifeform upgrades, and needing to drop 3 of a upgrade structure to get full benefits is just irritating. then a hive dies and you need to spend what? 105? more res just to get the hive and biomass back.
Just increase gorge tunnel cost for gorges if absolutely needed.
No?
Oh.. Then I think that comparison doesn't hold up.
Seriously people, I get if you aren't running into this issue, but please at least read the thread to understand what its discussing. Anecdotally... I'm experiencing this 30% of the games I play.
I'm genuinely curious as I've never see this, where is this place you can put a PG that an Onos cannot reach?
Exploit Gorge Tunnels = L2P issue for marines.
Marine Jump = Broken and unfair for aliens.
If anything is L2P, it's the basics of the game, i.e., killing marines. It's really not that hard. Here's a hint: stop spamming jump as a skulk when you're engaging marines.
Also, TIL that Onos are required to kill phase gates.
Seriously, though, what does this have to do with anything? Can skulks still reach it? Can bilebomb still reach it? Can lerks still reach it? I don't even know the spot you're talking about, but I can guarantee the answer to all of the above is: yes.
On docking I can get to landing pad, gestate to gorge, and fully build a GT in 40 seconds - from any starting hive.
I stopped testing any further than that because i realized its the same for just about any map..
And the time it takes to get back to the hive as a gorge, at most was 30 seconds, meaning i can get an exploiting tunnel in most maps up and operational in 1 minute..
This is not a L2P issue.
Clearly we have been misjudging all those green marines who hop in the command chair and immediately drop a robo, truly they are visionaries always ready to get ARCs at any moment to counter those nasty gorge tunnels. Upgrades be damned we need 2min ARCs!
But really, there are some locations that I feel some people are overreacting to as they can be reached with a few jumps but there are also some really exploitative locations for gorge tunnels that should probably be done away with. I am very interested to know exactly how UWE plans to "fix" this and hope their method does not compromise some of the very good legitimate and creative gorge tunnels.
This is the solution I am kind of leaning towards too. Of course doing it on a case-by-case basis is best but it is also unfortunately the fix that would likely be the most time consuming.
#problem solved
Plus it would take a extremely minuscule amount of code to make this work.
@mad_max , no offense but i dont think you are getting it still. There's no "restricting tactics" that's been mentioned beyond universally removing these exploitive locations.