Refinery & gorge tunnels
Draconis
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
Refinery wasnt really a favorite before Gorgeous, but now that aliens can pop tunnels in a number of key positions right at the start which can totally lock down key locations with un-harassable tunnels, it is a nightmare for marines. And please Dont tell me get grenades, for most spots you cant reach it with nades ( Containment vent, falls, conduit ).
It is really either fix the map or fix tunnels. If neither is in the todo list, can you please remove refinery from rotation?
It is really either fix the map or fix tunnels. If neither is in the todo list, can you please remove refinery from rotation?
Comments
Keep in mind that this is subject to change and might not actually end up beeing in the next patch.
EDIT: What Asra says is true as far as I'm aware, but I would still like to know which areas you are particularly unhappy with, so I can double-check them before any patch goes out.
There's some walkway above the power node in Containment that's virtually unreachable also.
why have a feature in a game if you're always removing the fun?
dont give me that balance bs
jetpacks are the fix (lazy ass marines)
hopefully you'll just add a ladder so we can still fuck with the marines but make them work for their victory over the gorge tunnel!
do not remove our gorge tunnels sweet spots as theyve made that map more fun and interesting than ever!
you mean the vent that can not be entered from the hallway without falling from the ceiling??
fix your geo, dont nerf gorges! L-)
stop pretending like youre losing games because of this.
Not sure what you mean. Without falling from what ceiling? What hallway? Gorge has no problem reaching any vent with clogs.
Wasn't even referring to gorge tunnels. A vent directly above a powernode to a techpoint that a gorge can safetly bile bomb from is pretty dumb design.
Check the room, maybe there is an Observatory with a 8 AM auto-beacon to get all the workers in that room, #1 TSF policy that don't tolerate being late at work, if you oversleep and still on the bed at 8 AM prepare yourself for a long day of jokes at work about your pijamas.
Actually there is! It's off to the left, behind the pipe. It's just not accessible from Flow Control.
You can go and check this in the public build in spectator mode, I didn't just ninja this into my working copy or anything. In fact, when I made that room, I deliberately made sure there was a door in there because I knew someone would bring it up if there wasn't. I will happily admit that having to squeeze between the pipe and the access panel isn't the most convenient set-up, but, nobody said they were putting the workers' comfort first when they built this place. In fact, when Cory and I were first discussing the theme of the level, we agreed that it would intentionally be a pretty uncomfortable and dangerous place to go work.
Perhaps some compromise? Make the GT box bigger so it wouldn't fit in most vents, and allow sticky GT. The marine can't reach the tunnel on the ceiling,but neither can the gorge or onos...
That's actually a pretty cool idea.
Marines are just getting easier and easier to play. Now they won't even have to pay attention to find/eliminate tunnels...
I'm not even that good at playing marines, and I have easily taken out gorge tunnels in all of the locations complained about in this thread...
I think you can avoid the ladder by detouring up the pipes in routing?
Thus, a virtually unreachable gorge tunnel can completely deny marines access to an entire area of the map for basically the first 10 minutes, AKA the most crucial minutes, which basically guarantees an alien win. And even then, jetpacks aren't normally seen that early in pubs, as most competent commanders will go uprgades/phase gates first.
And don't give me this whole "use teamwork" rebuttal. You're giving pub players too much credit.
Just make gorge tunnels researchable again, to make them appear later into the game. Or increase gorge and tunnel price, if you really want to keep them from the start...
First the infamous conduit tunnel:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346954
Completely invulnerable, there is an invisible wall in front of it, i was trying to shoot it in this screenshot, it is not possible without jps.
cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/594766568811137926/460621654FC89562045EB990A6F3E7BF2E11F148/
Funny thing that invisible wall also prevents skulk from going forward (steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346944 My skulk stuck into that invisible wall)
More classical Falls tunnel on top of the railing (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346902). Nearly anywhere on top of falls will do.
By the way why the gorge can bilebomb falls power safely from the top?
Last containment, it is a bit tricky to place you have to be very precise:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346805
With minimap opened:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346834
And of course marines ( without jp ) cannot shoot it:
cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594766568811100160/E65D468B1FDD086A7C0B5CBED3371D4BD8219455/
I couldnt nade it either, maybe with the next patch...
All tunnels location in chasm can be cleared with lmg/nades (and there are more than just the tunnel on top ).
All other spots ( that i know of ) can be cleared relatively easily with nades. Those three are either impossible to clear before jps, or just bloody difficult ( Falls ). And they give immediate map control to aliens in Flow/Smelting, which generally result in a predictable alien win.
Alien base-rushes are countered by fast mines or Obs. Mines open the possibility of fast upgrades, while Obs normally leads to phase gates while delaying upgrades.
Fades are countered with shotguns; shotguns semi-countered by Lerks. Lerk upgrades countered by flamethrowers. Onos countered by jetpacks. Alien crag bases countered by GLs. Shade hive countered by Obs. Crag hive countered by weapon upgrades. Arcs countered by Shade hive and bile bomb.
While this is how the game works, these 'counters' normally occur by pure happenstance on pubs as most competent commanders do standard marine/alien builds, which is a testament to how decently balanced the tech tree timings are.
And that is the most important thing: *every counter for every build can be researched in a reasonable amount of time in order to deal with that specific build.*
And what I mean by this is that every counter is attainable within a reasonable amount of time after its countered-build first appears on the field: mines can be researched within the first 10 seconds of the game, Obs can be dopped within the same time frame to defend against opening base rushes. Shotguns can be researched virtually at any time if the commander chooses, but normally don't come out until either 3m30s (first Lerk pops) or ~5m (nothing else to spend res on); very rare to see shotguns researched after the first Fade pop (8-9m). AA for flamethrowers normally comes out way before Lerk spores/umbra because pub comms hardly ever get lerk upgrades within the first 10 minutes of the game. Onos aren't normally seen in a well-team balanced game until ~18-20 minutes, which is a very feasible timing for jetpacks. Arc play is such a heavy tres investment that if you lose to arcs before you get bile bomb up, you deserve it.
But this timing philosophy does not apply to these exploitative tunnel placements. Like I mentioned before, jetpacks are not feasibly researchable until around the 10 minute mark at the absolute earliest. These gorge tunnel placements are available at the very outset of the game. How is placing a gorge tunnel, which grants the already-extremely-mobile alien team instant cross-map travel, in an elevated position wherein marines can't even hit it to begin with because of broken tunnel hitboxes, aided by invisible walls, "fair" or "exciting" in the slightest? It's not--it's broken.
Gorge tunnels placed in unreachable locations have no reasonable counter early in the game, and thus, gives the alien team an absolutely undeniable advantage during the round's most crucial minutes. The only thing that I could think of that's even remotely close to this is drifter support and flamethrowers: flamethrowers hard-counter drifter enzyme/mucous/etc. clouds (in the same respect that they hard-counter spores and umbra), though they aren't available until the AA is researched, whereas drifters can be dropped at the start of the game. But this isn't a really big problem because most pub comms don't use drifter support, if they even build drifters to begin with; and besides, drifters can actually be shot by the LMG.
Troll tunnels have to go, and I hope that this next build hotfixes as many of these tunnel spots as possible.
Yes you can. It is a bit difficult and you die if you miss the vent but is possible. Still though, you need to climb the ladder but only the top third.
I have killed the tunnel most times I have seen it there. That was do to aliens not guarding it enough and allowing me to get up top. If an alien was guarding it would be impossible to kill.
@F0rdPrefect, that is exactly my sentiment. Gorge tunnels are a bit OP right now. Either they need nerfed or the cost to go up. I personally would prefer the cost to go up in either pres or tres/research time or even both.