Refinery & gorge tunnels

DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
Refinery wasnt really a favorite before Gorgeous, but now that aliens can pop tunnels in a number of key positions right at the start which can totally lock down key locations with un-harassable tunnels, it is a nightmare for marines. And please Dont tell me get grenades, for most spots you cant reach it with nades ( Containment vent, falls, conduit ).

It is really either fix the map or fix tunnels. If neither is in the todo list, can you please remove refinery from rotation?
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Comments

  • frantixfrantix Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I think it will be patched, this is not official yet tho.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    It was already stated that the gorge tunnels are changed for the next patch. They will only be placable on the navigation mesh. This removes stuff like vents and unreachable places.
    Keep in mind that this is subject to change and might not actually end up beeing in the next patch.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited October 2013
    I am working on a patch for Refinery at the moment. I think I know some but not all of these spots. Could you please list the specific areas you are talking about?

    EDIT: What Asra says is true as far as I'm aware, but I would still like to know which areas you are particularly unhappy with, so I can double-check them before any patch goes out.
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Sure i will make screenshots for you when i get back from work in ~8h.
  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
  • SpoogeSpooge Thunderbolt missile in your cheerios Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 67Members
    Was just trolled with a GT in Chasm near the upper vent that leads toward Turbine.
    There's some walkway above the power node in Containment that's virtually unreachable also.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Vent directly above the powernode in containment.
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    wth @insane ?!
    why have a feature in a game if you're always removing the fun?
    dont give me that balance bs ;)
    jetpacks are the fix (lazy ass marines)

    hopefully you'll just add a ladder so we can still fuck with the marines but make them work for their victory over the gorge tunnel!
    do not remove our gorge tunnels sweet spots as theyve made that map more fun and interesting than ever!
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    Jekt wrote: »
    Vent directly above the powernode in containment.

    you mean the vent that can not be entered from the hallway without falling from the ceiling??
    fix your geo, dont nerf gorges! L-)
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Spooge wrote: »
    Was just trolled with a GT in Chasm near the upper vent that leads toward Turbine.
    There's some walkway above the power node in Containment that's virtually unreachable also.
    buy a jetpack or use teamwork to take it out.
    stop pretending like youre losing games because of this.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    What bugs me most about this map is that one small room you can see from flow control, through the glass... There is a chair, a terminal, pipes and stuff, but no door whatsoever. How do people get in there to work??
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    joohoo_n3d wrote: »
    Jekt wrote: »
    Vent directly above the powernode in containment.

    you mean the vent that can not be entered from the hallway without falling from the ceiling??
    fix your geo, dont nerf gorges! L-)

    Not sure what you mean. Without falling from what ceiling? What hallway? Gorge has no problem reaching any vent with clogs.

    Wasn't even referring to gorge tunnels. A vent directly above a powernode to a techpoint that a gorge can safetly bile bomb from is pretty dumb design.
  • AichmanAichman Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22782Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited October 2013
    What bugs me most about this map is that one small room you can see from flow control, through the glass... There is a chair, a terminal, pipes and stuff, but no door whatsoever. How do people get in there to work??

    Check the room, maybe there is an Observatory with a 8 AM auto-beacon to get all the workers in that room, #1 TSF policy that don't tolerate being late at work, if you oversleep and still on the bed at 8 AM prepare yourself for a long day of jokes at work about your pijamas.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Cool. I never saw that door^^
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    I do not think Gorge tunnels should be limited in placement, honestly I would love to see them placeable on walls... I loved sticky chambers in ns1 and would love to see them back in some fashion.

    Perhaps some compromise? Make the GT box bigger so it wouldn't fit in most vents, and allow sticky GT. The marine can't reach the tunnel on the ceiling,but neither can the gorge or onos...
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    If your crafty, you can climb into the rafters as a marine and kill that annoying falls gorge tunnel. It is possible.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    I do not think Gorge tunnels should be limited in placement, honestly I would love to see them placeable on walls... I loved sticky chambers in ns1 and would love to see them back in some fashion.

    Perhaps some compromise? Make the GT box bigger so it wouldn't fit in most vents, and allow sticky GT. The marine can't reach the tunnel on the ceiling,but neither can the gorge or onos...

    That's actually a pretty cool idea.
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    james888 wrote: »
    If your crafty, you can climb into the rafters as a marine and kill that annoying falls gorge tunnel. It is possible.
    Indeed you can. Good luck climbing on the fall ladder if there is a single awake skulk on it.

  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    Yeah I really don't like the idea of removing GT locations. Just make them more accessible for marines if anything. Just don't want to water down GT.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    I'm of the opinion that if a comm can't place a structure somewhere then the tunnel shouldn't be there just because it's placed by a lifeform rather than a comm.

  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    edited October 2013
    Some of these "balance" changes are getting silly.

    Marines are just getting easier and easier to play. Now they won't even have to pay attention to find/eliminate tunnels...

    I'm not even that good at playing marines, and I have easily taken out gorge tunnels in all of the locations complained about in this thread...

  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    ^ but this contradicts all gorge dynamics... Aliens shouldn't be limited by human understanding...
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Draconis wrote: »
    james888 wrote: »
    If your crafty, you can climb into the rafters as a marine and kill that annoying falls gorge tunnel. It is possible.
    Indeed you can. Good luck climbing on the fall ladder if there is a single awake skulk on it.

    I think you can avoid the ladder by detouring up the pipes in routing?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    And the only solution to solve this is to restrict gorge tunnels? First give them the freedom of being available from the start, and then even this out by restricting their positioning? Exciting gorge tunnel locations is all what they are about.

    Just make gorge tunnels researchable again, to make them appear later into the game. Or increase gorge and tunnel price, if you really want to keep them from the start...
  • DraconisDraconis Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13722Members, Reinforced - Onos
    edited October 2013
    OK screenshots incoming!

    First the infamous conduit tunnel:
    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346954
    Completely invulnerable, there is an invisible wall in front of it, i was trying to shoot it in this screenshot, it is not possible without jps.
    cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/594766568811137926/460621654FC89562045EB990A6F3E7BF2E11F148/

    Funny thing that invisible wall also prevents skulk from going forward (steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346944 My skulk stuck into that invisible wall)

    More classical Falls tunnel on top of the railing (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346902). Nearly anywhere on top of falls will do.

    By the way why the gorge can bilebomb falls power safely from the top?

    Last containment, it is a bit tricky to place you have to be very precise:
    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346805
    With minimap opened:
    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=188346834

    And of course marines ( without jp ) cannot shoot it:
    cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/594766568811100160/E65D468B1FDD086A7C0B5CBED3371D4BD8219455/
    I couldnt nade it either, maybe with the next patch...


    All tunnels location in chasm can be cleared with lmg/nades (and there are more than just the tunnel on top ).

    All other spots ( that i know of ) can be cleared relatively easily with nades. Those three are either impossible to clear before jps, or just bloody difficult ( Falls ). And they give immediate map control to aliens in Flow/Smelting, which generally result in a predictable alien win.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Draconis wrote: »
    james888 wrote: »
    If your crafty, you can climb into the rafters as a marine and kill that annoying falls gorge tunnel. It is possible.
    Indeed you can. Good luck climbing on the fall ladder if there is a single awake skulk on it.

    I think you can avoid the ladder by detouring up the pipes in routing?

    Yes you can. It is a bit difficult and you die if you miss the vent but is possible. Still though, you need to climb the ladder but only the top third.

    I have killed the tunnel most times I have seen it there. That was do to aliens not guarding it enough and allowing me to get up top. If an alien was guarding it would be impossible to kill.

    @F0rdPrefect, that is exactly my sentiment. Gorge tunnels are a bit OP right now. Either they need nerfed or the cost to go up. I personally would prefer the cost to go up in either pres or tres/research time or even both.
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