if it's glass that can be broken then it has to be server-side coz when the players look at the window the server has to tell the player's computers whether they can see the glass there or not.
From my point of view, the map creater is the owner of the map, the fact he decided to give it out for free doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it.. for your own use in a closed server\lan server you can change it as much as you like but i believe that for a public server you need the promission of the creator to publish/put the changed map..
<!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 16 2003, 10:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 16 2003, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But if somebody has paid for a server and downloaded a free game, technically they own ns_ecplise, then they can modify it if they wish. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? What does running a server have to do with owning the rights to ANY of the NS content? That's just stupid!
BTW: The map makers didn't claim these maps as Public Domain, therefore, they are, and always will be, the property of the original owner.
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
a solution to stop admins from doin this would be to code in a check, server/client have to be the same. I thought that was the way it was anyway. Anyway, file size.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 16 2003, 04:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 16 2003, 04:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CaL_FiN+Sep 16 2003, 10:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CaL_FiN @ Sep 16 2003, 10:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But if somebody has paid for a server and downloaded a free game, technically they own ns_ecplise, then they can modify it if they wish. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What? What does running a server have to do with owning the rights to ANY of the NS content? That's just stupid!
BTW: The map makers didn't claim these maps as Public Domain, therefore, they are, and always will be, the property of the original owner. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> some people don't know the difference between owning a game (buying it in a store) and owning the rights to a game (paying millions and making a contract with some business people).
there was this guy who bought the game Real War in the store and he ripped all the building graphics to put in his Red Alert 2 mod and i argued with him, and he and some other people said he could do that coz he owned Real War so he could do what he liked with it. hahaha dumbasses.
<!--QuoteBegin--ssjyoda+Sep 16 2003, 05:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ssjyoda @ Sep 16 2003, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> a solution to stop admins from doin this would be to code in a check, server/client have to be the same. I thought that was the way it was anyway. Anyway, file size. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i believe there is indeed a CRC check to ensure that the server and client map files are identical but the program that people are using to modify the maps called Ripent, i believe, has found a way to defeat the CRC check.
I'm not gonna tell server ops how to run their servers, but if this becomes common practice, look out for my critically acclaimed new maps, "ns_room_with_three_hives_and_a_cc", "ns_room_with_three_hives_a_cc_and_some_non_entity_crates" and "ns_brightemptycorridors". If demand is high enough, I will also release stripped versions optimized for speed so you can get that extra millisecond of ping time reduced that is keeping you from showing your TRUE potential.
Does this really modify the map itself or rather the method it is "displayed" ingame? Does that make any difference at all? By the way I'm not sure a public server is "public", as far as the law is concerned, right? It's still private. Like my garden, everyone could walk into my garden, but that doesn't make it a public place.
Maybe someone with more insight into the law issue can comment on that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If he wants to have floating pink elephants around the map, he can do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ooh, ooh, something for the Suggestions & Ideas forum! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
here's another example of what this is like. imagine this rich friend of yours who lives in a mansion with an awesome home cinema system invites you to his house for movie night and he says he just bought Star Wars or Jurassic Park or Terminator or some other awesome movies on DVD that you haven't seen before and you got all excited and then when you get to his house he says we have to watch the movies on this little portable black and white TV the size of a gameboy coz his home cinema system hasn't been working in ages and he can't be bothered to get it repaired yet. you'd be pretty angry with him wouldn't you? even though you didn't pay for anything; he offered the entertainment free to you. and then if you suggest maybe you shouldn't watch movies tonight and just browse the internet or something else which is rather boring and then he just proceeds to watch the movies anyway right next to you with the sound coming out the little dinky TV speakers and him pointing the screen at you saying "look at this part it's really awesome" you'd be very angry with him wouldn't you? and you'd probably leave to avoid hearing or seeing any of the movie.
Many people who release things for free don't care too much if things are changes, so long as all credits are given fully, and nobody else is making money off it. I mean, if I made a map, I wouldn't care too much if they removed the entities, as long as they still said I made the map and that they removed the entities. Now, if they took my map, changed one small part, said they made the map and sold it, that would be bad. It really boils down to the creator. If they don't want people to do something with their stuff, people shouldn't do that. This is somewhat related to server-side plugins, like PG select, the medpack/armory, stuck, etc. I mean, they are changing the game, some to a greater degree than others, no one seems to mind, so it happens.
THere used to be a low-entitiy version of hera. They took out the smokey corridor, some steam, and other particle effects. It was stupid. It's like your rich friend buys the Jurrasic Park DVD, copies it to his iBook, and edits out the scenes he doesn't like and burns it again, then shows it off to everyone at a party.
Actually, that's exactly what it's like. I had a friend who would watch movies by fastforwarding through all the talking and just watch the action scenes. Needless to say I stopped watching movies with him.
<!--QuoteBegin--Trojan2+Sep 16 2003, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trojan2 @ Sep 16 2003, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As is you have to sigh in, play for a bit and then discover that the railings in Via-duct have been removed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, that is not such a bad tweak. Skulks have trouble getting up those railings sometimes >_<
<!--QuoteBegin--Trojan2+Sep 16 2003, 02:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trojan2 @ Sep 16 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it would be a good tweek if they deleted the entire rail instead of just the graphics for it, You still get stuck, you just cant see it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh yes, that's a really bad case. I once spent nearly a minute trying to jump on top of something in ns_veil before I realized the server had made the rail invisible. All that time spent failing to jump on something that seemed so easy to get to. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Server admins can do whatever they want to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Flayra cant tell server admins what to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> he can't tell server admins what to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They have every right to do whatever the **** they want to do <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And all in such a small post. =O
Anyways Flayra *could* make them do what he wants to do. He owns rights to the mod and could not allow them to host it on their server.
However, he's not going to do that because traditionally in server-based games servers are allowed to make whatever modifications they want. If you don't agree with them- that's what other servers are for.
Anyways, you're not allowed to put up blacklists anyways. And I really hope this topic doesn't get locked when it has no blacklist, as I've found the mods to be pretty lock-happy. I think this forum need more clear policies- I've seen some topics about problems on a server (with no name or admin listed) locked, while others that are almost the same are untouched. If this got locked, I'm really not sure what policy it would have violated. And sometimes admins lock a topic because the original question has been dealt with or answered, even if there is plenty of room for discussion.
On one side, you don't see Levelord foaming at the mouth upon discovery of a server that runs a modified version of one of his maps.
On the other hand, it is the mapper's own original work. Finding out that your painstakingly-crafted particlesystems were replaced with glowing headcrabs isn't a very heartwarming thing.
Really, you guys do realize that this game is a MOD, flayra and crew MODDED half-life to create this wonderful game. Is it really that much of a stretch if someone else modifies something that was already modified?
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use.
The servers you saw with missing entites was probably caused by a bug. I've seen it happen on our cs server with admin mod. Missing ladders and even missing bomb sites. :o I can't imagine anyone would refine a map by removing railings.
But even if its not a bug, the server operators wouldn't be able to run those maps without removing the entities. They obviously like the maps and want to play them, so are willing to put up with a slight lack in visual appearence.
Server operators will do this and you can't stop them. So perhaps the map creators should produce low entity versions, that still look half decent, or just stop using so many damn entities in the first place.
Our server doesn't use optimized maps, but it comes at a price. Our cpu usage is 20-50% on most maps except bast and hera were it goes to 90%. If we used optimized versions of those maps we could run another server on the same box.
We are paying a high price so that a couple of maps can look nice. How much are you paying? Time to stop moaning and find another server to play on if it bothers you that much.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pykmi+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pykmi @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If a server owner wants to do anything he wants to do, why couldn't he?
If he wants to have floating pink elephants around the map, he can do that.
Heck, and if he does, you don't have a right to complain. Make your own server the way you want it to be.
You can't make one happy without making the other one mad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> On the contrary.. the admin has the right to do whatever he wants
We have the right to choose whatever we want
We also have the right to COMPLAIN if we want..... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But editing maps just slightly can be fun! Such as using entmod to move the graphics on ladders just slightly to the left... Its amazing how many people get fooled by that one... and picking up Turrets and hitting onos with them.. Thats always fun too. and putting OCs on the ceiling! or Stealing res nodes and stockpiling them at marine start! Ahhh.. Admins can be evil indeed... But still, certin map hacks can actually be fun, such as a recent one of Hera that was approved by the creator, which changes around the starting points..
Well, both sides present very valid arguements. I wouldn't want someone taking my hard work and crapping it up, but on the other hand, I wouldn't want someone's hard work crapping up my server. I guess thats why Flayra gave the admins the choice to do this.
The only thing I see is, what are you guys going to do about admins crapping up maps? Not much you can do about it. It is their server, and they can do with it as they wish.
Now, I'm not taking sides, because both side's arguements are so valid, that I can't take a side, because a) I don't make maps. b) I don't run a server. and c) 90% of you guys don't do either, as well.
<!--QuoteBegin--ThE HeRo+Sep 16 2003, 10:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ThE HeRo @ Sep 16 2003, 10:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, both sides present very valid arguements. I wouldn't want someone taking my hard work and crapping it up, but on the other hand, I wouldn't want someone's hard work crapping up my server. I guess thats why Flayra gave the admins the choice to do this.
The only thing I see is, what are you guys going to do about admins crapping up maps? Not much you can do about it. It is their server, and they can do with it as they wish.
Now, I'm not taking sides, because both side's arguements are so valid, that I can't take a side, because a) I don't make maps. b) I don't run a server. and c) 90% of you guys don't do either, as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly...
C is right on, until you own and operate a server or pay for it monthly, it is kinda hard to have a leg to stand on. If you don't like it don't play there.
My hard money is spent on the server, I will set it up the best way for my clients and me.
This may sound selfish, but that is that. As I stated before, I like NS the way it is so I don't mod the maps, however my server, my processor power, my internet connection, my money, my ability to make it run the best way possible.
For all you purest out there, how many of you like the unstuck mod? Cause this is an addon that isn't official, however it is a necessary evil, as is removing entities if the server can't handle them. Deal with it, find a server that has the setup you want, and move on!
Adminmod & Clanmod have a habit of "breaking" entities on maps in <b>any</b> Half-Life mod. I've seen it happening in S&I, CS, TFC and a few others from time to time. This is what causes things like railings to dissapear, fans that should rotate not move etc. If this is the behaviour you are experiencing I suggest you check to see if adminmod or clanmod are running on the server first before attempting to climb astride your high horses.
The only 'editing' of a map I've seen is switching around the hives & marine start on ns_hera which is pretty obvious when you join as the res nodes are all moved too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Server admins can do whatever they want to do with their servers. Flayra cant tell server admins what to do, sorry, but its law. He cant regulate. If you were mature enough, you would know he can't tell server admins what to do. You are not paying for the servers that have the maps "crapified", THEY ARE. They work for it, you arent. They have every right to do whatever the **** they want to do with their servers. If you dont like it, go to another server. Enough said.
Btw quality insurance policy comes along when you freaking PAY FOR THE GAME, but you didnt, because this is a free mod. Okay thanks bye. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you dense? He can't stop server admins from RUNNING THEIR SERVER - That means choosing what metamods to upload, kicking/banning people, etc. etc. etc.
<b>RUNNING YOUR SERVER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH VIOLATING COPYRIGHT LAWS AND MODIFYING THE GOD-GIVEN PROPERTY OF FLAYRA</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--TheNimbus+Sep 16 2003, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheNimbus @ Sep 16 2003, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really, you guys do realize that this game is a MOD, flayra and crew MODDED half-life to create this wonderful game. Is it really that much of a stretch if someone else modifies something that was already modified?
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Make your own mod and tell me that. I've had someone strip a mod for a game I made and integrate it into THEIR mod, which built upon mine. Was I given credit? Sure. But that doesn't matter. He took MY WORKS and modified them for HIM, WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
Everyone saying 'Aww the map makers won't care'. Why don't you make a map and have someone rip it apart for their own gain. You'll know how they REALLY feel.
The thing is, as long a Flayra doesn't care, then don't make such a fuss about it, sheesh. Some comps just can't handle NS, that's also why low poly models were made in NS customization , so people with low comp specs can have fun to.
[Offtopic] I remember on one server a friend of mine (Admin) would change it to this completely blank map where you'd teleport into this big room and just fight, he'd make huge castles and the health/armor dispensers from HL in them. It was pretty fun.[/Offtopic]
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
All right. After all this conversation, thought I might chip in my two bits.
First, a creation (aka: original content) remains the property of the creator and is automatically copyrighted under US law. Unless they choose to sell it or release it into public domain (neither of which has KFS done, as far as I know), it remains their property regardless of how widely distributed it may become. Second, that creation may NOT be used for derivative works under US copyright law. Meaning no decompiling a map and switching out parts, or using sections as prefab, then calling it yours. This includes stripping out sections, as Stripent does. It becomes a derivative work at that point, not being presented as it was intended by the creator. KFS would technically be within his legal rights in suing any server running stripent on any of his maps, for copyright infringement. As would Flayra in suing those utilizing plugins, as it would be an NS-derivative, and not NS.
Third. Server operators have the ability to choose what content they include, and do not include on their servers. They may choose to run NS if they want to. They may <b>choose which maps to include in their mapcycle</b>. This means if their box is not beefy enough to run vanilla Hera, they are quite free to remove it from the map rotation.
It's honestly quite the other way around from what has been presented so far. If a server cannot handle running something as it was intended by the creator, <b>they are NOT legally free to modify that content so that it will operate within their system specifics</b>, without the express permission of the creator. This doesn't stop too many people from *doing* it, but neither does it override the fact that it remains an illegal implementation.
Just because a work is digital does not render it a copy. It is an exact duplicate of the original, and for all intents and purposes IS the original. The arguments used so far are nearly the exact ones used by art pirates, downloading drawings and erasing away the signatures to emplace their own. Instead, these are people who selectively erase sections of a drawing and leave the original artist's signature in place. Which is cause for a defamation lawsuit, due to negative impression based upon a work of art. Again, I doubt that KFS will take action, but it does not stop it from being illegal.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
edited September 2003
What Talesin said.
i.e. Feel free to change the content of maps, providing you don't mind the <b>chance</b> of being successfully sued by the creator of the map.
The law is very clear on this point.
And FYI, the laws on copyright protection extend to the UK, Europe and indeed most of the world. So just because you live outside the US doesn't make you exempt.
Of course, KFS or Relic or any other mapper <i>probably</i> isn't going to sue you, because they are the kind of guys who put in thousands of hours work so people can enjoy themselves. They just work on the basis that people might respect their wishes, given all the work that they have put in.
Respect appears to be in short supply, judging from some of the above posts.
Comments
the map creater is the owner of the map, the fact he decided to give it out for free doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it.. for your own use in a closed server\lan server you can change it as much as you like but i believe that for a public server you need the promission of the creator to publish/put the changed map..
What? What does running a server have to do with owning the rights to ANY of the NS content? That's just stupid!
BTW: The map makers didn't claim these maps as Public Domain, therefore, they are, and always will be, the property of the original owner.
What? What does running a server have to do with owning the rights to ANY of the NS content? That's just stupid!
BTW: The map makers didn't claim these maps as Public Domain, therefore, they are, and always will be, the property of the original owner. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
some people don't know the difference between owning a game (buying it in a store) and owning the rights to a game (paying millions and making a contract with some business people).
there was this guy who bought the game Real War in the store and he ripped all the building graphics to put in his Red Alert 2 mod and i argued with him, and he and some other people said he could do that coz he owned Real War so he could do what he liked with it. hahaha dumbasses.
i believe there is indeed a CRC check to ensure that the server and client map files are identical but the program that people are using to modify the maps called Ripent, i believe, has found a way to defeat the CRC check.
By the way I'm not sure a public server is "public", as far as the law is concerned, right? It's still private. Like my garden, everyone could walk into my garden, but that doesn't make it a public place.
Maybe someone with more insight into the law issue can comment on that.
Ooh, ooh, something for the Suggestions & Ideas forum! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, that's exactly what it's like. I had a friend who would watch movies by fastforwarding through all the talking and just watch the action scenes. Needless to say I stopped watching movies with him.
Actually, that is not such a bad tweak. Skulks have trouble getting up those railings sometimes >_<
Oh yes, that's a really bad case. I once spent nearly a minute trying to jump on top of something in ns_veil before I realized the server had made the rail invisible. All that time spent failing to jump on something that seemed so easy to get to. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Server admins can do whatever they want to do
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Flayra cant tell server admins what to do
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
he can't tell server admins what to do
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Soberana+Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soberana @ Sep 16 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
They have every right to do whatever the **** they want to do
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And all in such a small post. =O
Anyways Flayra *could* make them do what he wants to do. He owns rights to the mod and could not allow them to host it on their server.
However, he's not going to do that because traditionally in server-based games servers are allowed to make whatever modifications they want. If you don't agree with them- that's what other servers are for.
Anyways, you're not allowed to put up blacklists anyways. And I really hope this topic doesn't get locked when it has no blacklist, as I've found the mods to be pretty lock-happy. I think this forum need more clear policies- I've seen some topics about problems on a server (with no name or admin listed) locked, while others that are almost the same are untouched. If this got locked, I'm really not sure what policy it would have violated. And sometimes admins lock a topic because the original question has been dealt with or answered, even if there is plenty of room for discussion.
Whoops. Went off on a tangent. Later.
-JohnnySmash
On the other hand, it is the mapper's own original work. Finding out that your painstakingly-crafted particlesystems were replaced with glowing headcrabs isn't a very heartwarming thing.
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use.
But even if its not a bug, the server operators wouldn't be able to run those maps without removing the entities. They obviously like the maps and want to play them, so are willing to put up with a slight lack in visual appearence.
Server operators will do this and you can't stop them. So perhaps the map creators should produce low entity versions, that still look half decent, or just stop using so many damn entities in the first place.
Our server doesn't use optimized maps, but it comes at a price. Our cpu usage is 20-50% on most maps except bast and hera were it goes to 90%. If we used optimized versions of those maps we could run another server on the same box.
We are paying a high price so that a couple of maps can look nice. How much are you paying? Time to stop moaning and find another server to play on if it bothers you that much.
If he wants to have floating pink elephants around the map, he can do that.
Heck, and if he does, you don't have a right to complain. Make your own server the way you want it to be.
You can't make one happy without making the other one mad. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the contrary.. the admin has the right to do whatever he wants
We have the right to choose whatever we want
We also have the right to COMPLAIN if we want..... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Such as using entmod to move the graphics on ladders just slightly to the left...
Its amazing how many people get fooled by that one...
and picking up Turrets and hitting onos with them.. Thats always fun too.
and putting OCs on the ceiling!
or Stealing res nodes and stockpiling them at marine start!
Ahhh.. Admins can be evil indeed...
But still, certin map hacks can actually be fun, such as a recent one of Hera that was approved by the creator, which changes around the starting points..
The only thing I see is, what are you guys going to do about admins crapping up maps? Not much you can do about it. It is their server, and they can do with it as they wish.
Now, I'm not taking sides, because both side's arguements are so valid, that I can't take a side, because
a) I don't make maps.
b) I don't run a server.
and c) 90% of you guys don't do either, as well.
The only thing I see is, what are you guys going to do about admins crapping up maps? Not much you can do about it. It is their server, and they can do with it as they wish.
Now, I'm not taking sides, because both side's arguements are so valid, that I can't take a side, because
a) I don't make maps.
b) I don't run a server.
and c) 90% of you guys don't do either, as well. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly...
C is right on, until you own and operate a server or pay for it monthly, it is kinda hard to have a leg to stand on. If you don't like it don't play there.
My hard money is spent on the server, I will set it up the best way for my clients and me.
This may sound selfish, but that is that. As I stated before, I like NS the way it is so I don't mod the maps, however my server, my processor power, my internet connection, my money, my ability to make it run the best way possible.
For all you purest out there, how many of you like the unstuck mod? Cause this is an addon that isn't official, however it is a necessary evil, as is removing entities if the server can't handle them. Deal with it, find a server that has the setup you want, and move on!
The only 'editing' of a map I've seen is switching around the hives & marine start on ns_hera which is pretty obvious when you join as the res nodes are all moved too.
Btw quality insurance policy comes along when you freaking PAY FOR THE GAME, but you didnt, because this is a free mod. Okay thanks bye. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you dense? He can't stop server admins from RUNNING THEIR SERVER - That means choosing what metamods to upload, kicking/banning people, etc. etc. etc.
<b>RUNNING YOUR SERVER HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH VIOLATING COPYRIGHT LAWS AND MODIFYING THE GOD-GIVEN PROPERTY OF FLAYRA</b>
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make your own mod and tell me that. I've had someone strip a mod for a game I made and integrate it into THEIR mod, which built upon mine. Was I given credit? Sure. But that doesn't matter. He took MY WORKS and modified them for HIM, WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
Everyone saying 'Aww the map makers won't care'. Why don't you make a map and have someone rip it apart for their own gain. You'll know how they REALLY feel.
[Offtopic] I remember on one server a friend of mine (Admin) would change it to this completely blank map where you'd teleport into this big room and just fight, he'd make huge castles and the health/armor dispensers from HL in them. It was pretty fun.[/Offtopic]
First, a creation (aka: original content) remains the property of the creator and is automatically copyrighted under US law. Unless they choose to sell it or release it into public domain (neither of which has KFS done, as far as I know), it remains their property regardless of how widely distributed it may become.
Second, that creation may NOT be used for derivative works under US copyright law. Meaning no decompiling a map and switching out parts, or using sections as prefab, then calling it yours. This includes stripping out sections, as Stripent does. It becomes a derivative work at that point, not being presented as it was intended by the creator. KFS would technically be within his legal rights in suing any server running stripent on any of his maps, for copyright infringement. As would Flayra in suing those utilizing plugins, as it would be an NS-derivative, and not NS.
Third. Server operators have the ability to choose what content they include, and do not include on their servers. They may choose to run NS if they want to. They may <b>choose which maps to include in their mapcycle</b>. This means if their box is not beefy enough to run vanilla Hera, they are quite free to remove it from the map rotation.
It's honestly quite the other way around from what has been presented so far. If a server cannot handle running something as it was intended by the creator, <b>they are NOT legally free to modify that content so that it will operate within their system specifics</b>, without the express permission of the creator. This doesn't stop too many people from *doing* it, but neither does it override the fact that it remains an illegal implementation.
Just because a work is digital does not render it a copy. It is an exact duplicate of the original, and for all intents and purposes IS the original. The arguments used so far are nearly the exact ones used by art pirates, downloading drawings and erasing away the signatures to emplace their own. Instead, these are people who selectively erase sections of a drawing and leave the original artist's signature in place. Which is cause for a defamation lawsuit, due to negative impression based upon a work of art. Again, I doubt that KFS will take action, but it does not stop it from being illegal.
i.e. Feel free to change the content of maps, providing you don't mind the <b>chance</b> of being successfully sued by the creator of the map.
The law is very clear on this point.
And FYI, the laws on copyright protection extend to the UK, Europe and indeed most of the world. So just because you live outside the US doesn't make you exempt.
Of course, KFS or Relic or any other mapper <i>probably</i> isn't going to sue you, because they are the kind of guys who put in thousands of hours work so people can enjoy themselves. They just work on the basis that people might respect their wishes, given all the work that they have put in.
Respect appears to be in short supply, judging from some of the above posts.