Whats wrong with modding maps? Ive seen alot of people complaining about the low light levels marine start in ns_bast, so i modded it to be a bit brighter. Modding is good to tweak unfair advantages in maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 16 2003, 11:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 16 2003, 11:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TheNimbus+Sep 16 2003, 07:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheNimbus @ Sep 16 2003, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Really, you guys do realize that this game is a MOD, flayra and crew MODDED half-life to create this wonderful game. Is it really that much of a stretch if someone else modifies something that was already modified?
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Make your own mod and tell me that. I've had someone strip a mod for a game I made and integrate it into THEIR mod, which built upon mine. Was I given credit? Sure. But that doesn't matter. He took MY WORKS and modified them for HIM, WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
Everyone saying 'Aww the map makers won't care'. Why don't you make a map and have someone rip it apart for their own gain. You'll know how they REALLY feel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're sharing your mod with the public, you're doing it because you want other people to have fun with what you have created right? You're also given credit for it and all derivations from it.
About this guy that "stole" your stuff for his "gain," was he really doing it for his <i>gain</i>?
If he ripped off your mod then started to SELL his work, then sure, sue the hell out of that rat ****.
But if he's just distributing his work for free to anyone that wants it, more power to him, if his work is good then that's great, he gave you credit and your work went on to give fun to people. If he was sloppy and he made a big pile of crap of a mod, then no big deal, it won't be very popular and you probably won't even know about it if it fails.
I really don't see server ops sneakily going around ripping content apart for their own gain. What could they possibly gain from it anways? Even if they completely butcher your work, does it really make a difference? It was just a copy of your work. The original is yours and always yours.
Whoever is talking about map makers that might decide to sue server ops really needs to get a clue. If I decide to use copies of the mona lisa as toilet paper, or decide a magic marker would improve the painting, am I going to get sued by de vinci's descendents? Hell no, I'm just some idiot screwing around with a copy. My actions don't affect anyone else, i'm not harming anyone. Likewise, if I think ns_eclipse would look better with a giant onos turd laying in the marine spawn, and I modify the map and open my server up to the public to let others enjoy a big onos dump, am I doing anything wrong? NO! I'm just some crazy idiot screwing around with a copy. My actions don't deprive KungFuSquirrel of anything.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Additionally, though I have not taken the bar, I *have* had a number of art-thief websites closed down. In the very act of the creation of a piece of art (INCLUDING that carried by digital media, such as a scan of a drawing, or a .bsp of a map), it falls under copyright law immediately. This includes those who modify art to make signatures illegible, or otherwise alter (flip, skew, scale) an image to make it less recognizable. I have seen people asked by the LAPD to remove their shirt and surrender it to someone else, because the shirt-owner printed out and used an iron-on transfer to put a piece of art on said shirt. They could have been sued, but the artist in question let them off with a stern warning. It was an unintended use for the piece of art.
If there were a thousand 'Mona Lisa'.. ten thousand 'Journey of Man', a million 'School of Athens'... would it be justified to use even ONE of them to line a bird cage? To wrap fish? To start a fire?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Teflon have you ever owned/operated/payed for a server?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An NS server, no, but I do run a Tribes server. Imagine that. Furthermore, whether you run a server or not has nothing to do with modifying the map to play how YOU want it to play. In the eyes of the law, modifying a map for performance OR gameplay is the exact same thing. You are not pro-performance, you <b>ARE</b> pro-hack. Your intention is good but that doesn't make a damn difference for reasons I won't repeat because Talesin has already made that point abundantly clear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I hacking the map at this point, no, I am altering it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're altering it. That is all that needs to be said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This server is ran with "X" plugin, which reduces entities on maps so that this server can run the maps without taking a performance hit. This in no way alters the original layout or gameflow design of the map, it removes special effects such as steam and ligting effects. If you do not agree with this form of plugin, please disconnect now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How nice you have a disclaimer. Maybe it didn't occur to you that the smokey steam in Hera in the lower corridor is there for a reason. I've played on LE Hera, and the steam was gone. It sucked. It was just a black hallway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now that the issues with server performance is fixed, and the maps have been made better by the NS mapping team, we as admins don't have to take measures, however some admins still run on slower servers, and require that these changes be made in order to give the NS community a server to play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because I have a computer doesn't mean game companies are obligated to make software capable of running on all systems no matter how slow. If your server cannot run the maps lag free then your server is not up to running NS at all. Editing the software so that you can run it is ILLEGAL. Either run WITH the lag, or DO NOT RUN THE SOFTWARE AT ALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to admin servers you require metamod, and adminmod. To add to that you also are best fit if you run the stuck mod, do to clipping issues that occur. By doing this I am adding something to NS but this is ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for someone to talk about this. You are not adding something to NS. You are adding something to Half-Life, (The "Host Application"). Furthermore, these metamods are third party applications that do not directly tweak the program. Rather, they work WITH the program, two totally different things. However, once your plugin begins modifying the game content, it is infringing on copyright laws.
This thread ruined my lunch. I don't see how people can debate something with a firm basis in it. No one has spoken up with profound legal knowledge other than, "take my word for it laws work like this!" It's been said that NS is being handed out without an EULA... does this mean anything? I don't know?! If someone gives me software for free without an agreement do copyright laws still protect. You'll say, "yes," someone else will say, "noes!" In the end nothing is concluded. We're debating evolution in Sunday School; no one has anything to go by, except what they think is right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Additionally, though I have not taken the bar, I *have* had a number of art-thief websites closed down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
YOU ARE A SOLDIER IN THE WAR AGAINST ART THEFT!
This doesn't lend any credibility to you position, however. No specifics are included, and no evidence that there's any sort of lucid parallel between the situations.
Oh, and I'd have no problem with lining a bird cage with a print of the Mona Lisa. It'd be an expensive way to do it, but that's it.
People here seem to have a misconception of just how these maps are being modified. There isn't a setting coded in by Flayra or any other member of the development team that takes out some of the entities of the maps, nor is there a plugin which reduces the entity count of the maps. The way that these maps are being modified is through the use of a program called "ripent", or possibly notepad (either is quite possible). Ripent takes out the entity information of a map and presents it in a format that is easily edited through map making software. It can later be reinserted in the map.
Notepad can be used in a similar fashion, except that no program is used to export entity information, and that all editing is through text.
Entmod is a different case, as all the editing is done at runtime, and the changes aren't permanent (unless I am mistaken).
Whether or not such editing is legal, I will be sure to make it explicitly clear that my map isn't to be edited by anybody other than myself unless the modifier has written permission, if/when I release my map.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Sep 17 2003, 05:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 17 2003, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->God I feel like I'm explaining why the sky is blue to 4 year olds who just keep asking 'Why?'.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, and now you're mistaking "someone disagrees with me" for "someone is stupid". Spare us your patronizing, sir.
For one, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that a map falls under the definition of "software" since it is not in fact executable. The HL engine is software, the map is merely data that engine acts upon.
Really, we don't even need to go further. Neither of us have taken and passed a bar exam (yet) and therefore for anyone to accept <i>your</i> interpretation of legal language - especially since none of us agreed to that language, your flippant dismissal of that point aside - out of hand <i>would</i> be stupid. I challenge you again to find clear precedent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm a Sophmore at University of Colorado majoring in Law. My professor is Dave Hill. Ironically enough, he's teaching us laws about ownership of property. Imagine that.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Copyright laws stand, without needing to agree to them. They are law. Art, upon creation, falls under a specific set of copyright laws protecting it from being altered. <b><i>Parody</b></i>, however, is another story entirely... but only in the USA. You're free to parody, but ONLY in a manner that would prevent the original from being mistaken for the parody, or vice-versa.
Stripent is not parody. It is unlawful modification of a piece of art, in this case specifically against the mappers' desire.
well if the mappers have copyrighted the maps then go sew the hell outta every modded server mappers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a Sophmore at University of Colorado majoring in Law. My professor is Dave Hill. Ironically enough, he's teaching us laws about ownership of property.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me again when you pass the bar, join a firm, take this case to court, and win. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To expand upon this to make it more than a cosmetic objection: were you to take this case to court, there would be be another fully accredited attorney on the other side. Thus, <i>mere</i> credentials, even being a fully accredited attorney, are not enough, <i>because</i> it would be easy to find another such individual who worked from the same material and disagreed with you. Thus, I want an unappealed decision from a judge that establishes clear precedent.
D'accord?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is unlawful modification of a piece of art<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being all of the properties of the map.
I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator.
What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Diablus+Sep 17 2003, 05:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Diablus @ Sep 17 2003, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> well if the mappers have copyrighted the maps then go sew the hell outta every modded server mappers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Litigation is costly, time-consuming, and an exhaustive process. In copyright cases it's usually the last resort.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Sep 17 2003, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 17 2003, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a Sophmore at University of Colorado majoring in Law. My professor is Dave Hill. Ironically enough, he's teaching us laws about ownership of property.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Call me again when you pass the bar, join a firm, take this case to court, and win. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is unlawful modification of a piece of art<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being all of the properties of the map. I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator. What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have more education on this topic then you. By your standards, then, you are excused from this topic. I hope you never return, you arrogant, self-serving, incorrigable thief.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 17 2003, 01:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BTW: I think my sig ESPECIALLY applies to people as selfish, uncaring, and callous as YOU, Ricky. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Am I supposed to care what you think? Hmmm? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--RoCkIn RiCkY+Sep 17 2003, 05:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RoCkIn RiCkY @ Sep 17 2003, 05:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 17 2003, 01:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 01:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BTW: I think my sig ESPECIALLY applies to people as selfish, uncaring, and callous as YOU, Ricky. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Am I supposed to care what you think? Hmmm? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to flame, but just to state the obvious, I think it's blatant that you don't care what ANYONE thinks, not Flayra, not KFS, or any of the map makers.
I figured you'd take that tack, and edited my post for clarity. Read the edit.
I like your baseless accusation of me being a thief, too. What do you suppose I've stolen? Talesin, as a mod, shouldn't you be taking a dim view of his namecalling? If I called Teflon an shallow, self-important, nascent failure, I suspect you'd have something to say.
Just sayin'.
Teflon, it really would serve you well if you could imagine, even for a second, that it was possible that you were wrong. If you'll notice, I've: 1. stated my <i>belief</i> being careful to word it as such and 2. stated that I don't think it's unreasonable to disagree with <i>your</i> beliefs and supplied reasons for that
You've: 1. said "ARRR I'M RIGHT AND ANYONE THAT DISAGREES IS AN ARROGANT, STUPID, THIEF!"
Why this went from a plea from people wanting to play maps in their originality to a legal debate is beyond me. You want to show off your prowess at Law, please take it to the courtroom when you pass a bar exam. This isn't the place to hang your ego nor your legal knowledge (or lack thereof) when something so simple was asked.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Sep 17 2003, 02:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 17 2003, 02:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being all of the properties of the map. I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator. What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Incorrect assumption. As a Map has no physical existence beyond a series of magnetic blips on a hard drive somewhere, it exists as a concept. The copyright does not apply to those specific blips on that specific hard drive, or all online content would be technically public domain. Once again, this is an argument that art pirates have used. That along with 'well, you put it up for everyone to look at, so I should be free to change it as I see fit'.
It is impossible for someone to change ns_hera. It is possible, however, for someone to create a derivative work based upon ns_hera, by doing something along the lines of, say, stripping out entities. Which is again, illegal.
What if KFS decided to try to get a job as a professional map designer, and at some point applied. Unfortunately, the hiring manager has had the terrible luck to only play on Stripent servers, so has only seen examples of invisible walls, missing platforms, lackluster pipeways, and a Holoroom with no... holo? And if it ended up in his being declined? I admit, it's a far-fetched scenario, but lies within the realm of possibility. At that point, those server operators would have taken the gift he'd given, twisted it, and essentially thrown it back in his face. Harming him with the loss of the job.
It may not be illegal to alter a copy for private use (which running a non-passworded server is not). The magic of digital media is, THEY ARE NOT COPIES. They are the original, exact in every respect. And modification of that IS illegal.
Comments
<a href='http://www.adminop.net' target='_blank'>Linky</a>
he is teh creator..
if someone is abusing any server side mod u dont complian like a freekin kiddie,JUST FREEKIN LEAVE GOD!
Although I do agree that NS is an original creation, it was created free for the public with the intention to give people a fun playing experience. If some server mod makes a cool change that's popular with people then hey, more power to them. If some server admin does some bonehead change to a map and people don't like it, then it's probably not going to spread to any other servers, and it will end with that server, no harm done. Hey, it's Natural selection...
Honestly, who cares if people change around their servers a little, as long as they mention it, it's fine with me. Also, a better analogy would be this: You have created a card game, you distribute the playing instructions to anyone that wants them. A few of the people that took the instructions decide to change a couple rules for their home use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make your own mod and tell me that. I've had someone strip a mod for a game I made and integrate it into THEIR mod, which built upon mine. Was I given credit? Sure. But that doesn't matter. He took MY WORKS and modified them for HIM, WITHOUT MY PERMISSION.
Everyone saying 'Aww the map makers won't care'. Why don't you make a map and have someone rip it apart for their own gain. You'll know how they REALLY feel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're sharing your mod with the public, you're doing it because you want other people to have fun with what you have created right? You're also given credit for it and all derivations from it.
About this guy that "stole" your stuff for his "gain," was he really doing it for his <i>gain</i>?
If he ripped off your mod then started to SELL his work, then sure, sue the hell out of that rat ****.
But if he's just distributing his work for free to anyone that wants it, more power to him, if his work is good then that's great, he gave you credit and your work went on to give fun to people. If he was sloppy and he made a big pile of crap of a mod, then no big deal, it won't be very popular and you probably won't even know about it if it fails.
I really don't see server ops sneakily going around ripping content apart for their own gain. What could they possibly gain from it anways? Even if they completely butcher your work, does it really make a difference? It was just a copy of your work. The original is yours and always yours.
Whoever is talking about map makers that might decide to sue server ops really needs to get a clue. If I decide to use copies of the mona lisa as toilet paper, or decide a magic marker would improve the painting, am I going to get sued by de vinci's descendents? Hell no, I'm just some idiot screwing around with a copy. My actions don't affect anyone else, i'm not harming anyone. Likewise, if I think ns_eclipse would look better with a giant onos turd laying in the marine spawn, and I modify the map and open my server up to the public to let others enjoy a big onos dump, am I doing anything wrong? NO! I'm just some crazy idiot screwing around with a copy. My actions don't deprive KungFuSquirrel of anything.
I have seen people asked by the LAPD to remove their shirt and surrender it to someone else, because the shirt-owner printed out and used an iron-on transfer to put a piece of art on said shirt. They could have been sued, but the artist in question let them off with a stern warning. It was an unintended use for the piece of art.
If there were a thousand 'Mona Lisa'.. ten thousand 'Journey of Man', a million 'School of Athens'... would it be justified to use even ONE of them to line a bird cage? To wrap fish? To start a fire?
An NS server, no, but I do run a Tribes server. Imagine that. Furthermore, whether you run a server or not has nothing to do with modifying the map to play how YOU want it to play. In the eyes of the law, modifying a map for performance OR gameplay is the exact same thing. You are not pro-performance, you <b>ARE</b> pro-hack. Your intention is good but that doesn't make a damn difference for reasons I won't repeat because Talesin has already made that point abundantly clear.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Am I hacking the map at this point, no, I am altering it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're altering it. That is all that needs to be said.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This server is ran with "X" plugin, which reduces entities on maps so that this server can run the maps without taking a performance hit. This in no way alters the original layout or gameflow design of the map, it removes special effects such as steam and ligting effects. If you do not agree with this form of plugin, please disconnect now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How nice you have a disclaimer. Maybe it didn't occur to you that the smokey steam in Hera in the lower corridor is there for a reason. I've played on LE Hera, and the steam was gone. It sucked. It was just a black hallway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now that the issues with server performance is fixed, and the maps have been made better by the NS mapping team, we as admins don't have to take measures, however some admins still run on slower servers, and require that these changes be made in order to give the NS community a server to play on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because I have a computer doesn't mean game companies are obligated to make software capable of running on all systems no matter how slow. If your server cannot run the maps lag free then your server is not up to running NS at all. Editing the software so that you can run it is ILLEGAL. Either run WITH the lag, or DO NOT RUN THE SOFTWARE AT ALL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to admin servers you require metamod, and adminmod. To add to that you also are best fit if you run the stuck mod, do to clipping issues that occur. By doing this I am adding something to NS but this is ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for someone to talk about this. You are not adding something to NS. You are adding something to Half-Life, (The "Host Application"). Furthermore, these metamods are third party applications that do not directly tweak the program. Rather, they work WITH the program, two totally different things. However, once your plugin begins modifying the game content, it is infringing on copyright laws.
YOU ARE A SOLDIER IN THE WAR AGAINST ART THEFT!
This doesn't lend any credibility to you position, however. No specifics are included, and no evidence that there's any sort of lucid parallel between the situations.
Oh, and I'd have no problem with lining a bird cage with a print of the Mona Lisa. It'd be an expensive way to do it, but that's it.
Notepad can be used in a similar fashion, except that no program is used to export entity information, and that all editing is through text.
Entmod is a different case, as all the editing is done at runtime, and the changes aren't permanent (unless I am mistaken).
Whether or not such editing is legal, I will be sure to make it explicitly clear that my map isn't to be edited by anybody other than myself unless the modifier has written permission, if/when I release my map.
Oh, and now you're mistaking "someone disagrees with me" for "someone is stupid". Spare us your patronizing, sir.
For one, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that a map falls under the definition of "software" since it is not in fact executable. The HL engine is software, the map is merely data that engine acts upon.
Really, we don't even need to go further. Neither of us have taken and passed a bar exam (yet) and therefore for anyone to accept <i>your</i> interpretation of legal language - especially since none of us agreed to that language, your flippant dismissal of that point aside - out of hand <i>would</i> be stupid. I challenge you again to find clear precedent. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm a Sophmore at University of Colorado majoring in Law. My professor is Dave Hill. Ironically enough, he's teaching us laws about ownership of property. Imagine that.
Stripent is not parody. It is unlawful modification of a piece of art, in this case specifically against the mappers' desire.
Call me again when you pass the bar, join a firm, take this case to court, and win. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
To expand upon this to make it more than a cosmetic objection: were you to take this case to court, there would be be another fully accredited attorney on the other side. Thus, <i>mere</i> credentials, even being a fully accredited attorney, are not enough, <i>because</i> it would be easy to find another such individual who worked from the same material and disagreed with you. Thus, I want an unappealed decision from a judge that establishes clear precedent.
D'accord?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is unlawful modification of a piece of art<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being all of the properties of the map.
I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator.
What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Litigation is costly, time-consuming, and an exhaustive process. In copyright cases it's usually the last resort.
Call me again when you pass the bar, join a firm, take this case to court, and win. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is unlawful modification of a piece of art<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being all of the properties of the map.
I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator.
What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have more education on this topic then you. By your standards, then, you are excused from this topic. I hope you never return, you arrogant, self-serving, incorrigable thief.
Am I supposed to care what you think? Hmmm? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Am I supposed to care what you think? Hmmm? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to flame, but just to state the obvious, I think it's blatant that you don't care what ANYONE thinks, not Flayra, not KFS, or any of the map makers.
I like your baseless accusation of me being a thief, too. What do you suppose I've stolen? Talesin, as a mod, shouldn't you be taking a dim view of his namecalling? If I called Teflon an shallow, self-important, nascent failure, I suspect you'd have something to say.
Just sayin'.
Teflon, it really would serve you well if you could imagine, even for a second, that it was possible that you were wrong. If you'll notice, I've:
1. stated my <i>belief</i> being careful to word it as such and
2. stated that I don't think it's unreasonable to disagree with <i>your</i> beliefs and supplied reasons for that
You've:
1. said "ARRR I'M RIGHT AND ANYONE THAT DISAGREES IS AN ARROGANT, STUPID, THIEF!"
I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator.
What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incorrect assumption. As a Map has no physical existence beyond a series of magnetic blips on a hard drive somewhere, it exists as a concept. The copyright does not apply to those specific blips on that specific hard drive, or all online content would be technically public domain.
Once again, this is an argument that art pirates have used. That along with 'well, you put it up for everyone to look at, so I should be free to change it as I see fit'.
It is impossible for someone to change ns_hera. It is possible, however, for someone to create a derivative work based upon ns_hera, by doing something along the lines of, say, stripping out entities. Which is again, illegal.
What happens if you take a picture of Bugs Bunny, cut off the head, add a d***o sticking into his mouth and put him in bondage gear, then slap the whole thing up on your website, even with the tags 'Bugs Bunny © Warner Bros'? You get a cease and desist letter from WB, demanding that it be removed.
This is <b>no different</b>. You are taking a work of art, modifying it to suit your ends, and slapping it up regardless of the impression it might make.
What if KFS decided to try to get a job as a professional map designer, and at some point applied. Unfortunately, the hiring manager has had the terrible luck to only play on Stripent servers, so has only seen examples of invisible walls, missing platforms, lackluster pipeways, and a Holoroom with no... holo? And if it ended up in his being declined?
I admit, it's a far-fetched scenario, but lies within the realm of possibility. At that point, those server operators would have taken the gift he'd given, twisted it, and essentially thrown it back in his face. Harming him with the loss of the job.
It may not be illegal to alter a copy for private use (which running a non-passworded server is not). The magic of digital media is, THEY ARE NOT COPIES. They are the original, exact in every respect. And modification of that IS illegal.