Hacking The Maps Again

Talesin · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eVo.x @ Sep 17 2003, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Here, all we have is this steamer trunk, so we'll hack off your legs and arms, then ship you third-class freight, mmkay? I mean, that's perfectly fine, isn't it? You get where you're going, don't you? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

that isnt intentions....
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It most certainly is. They intend to get you where you want to go, as effectively as they can. They just don't realize that they'll be ***king you up in the process.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
and it IS ok, it just doesnt happen. There was a rock climber who's arm got stuck between 2 rocks and he was forced to cut it off to survive. is THAT ok? If i needed to get somewhere that badly, damn straight i'd do it.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Is playing Hera a life-or-death situation?
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
if they can rip the map and make it better, they should. that is how GODLIKE things are created. ever use linux? yeah that FREE, OPEN-SOUCE program? look what it has become.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Incorrect. They DESTROY the presentation of a map, so they can run it on their server. It's like a tiny art gallery crushing the Mona Lisa into a space a foot too small in each dimension, so it'll be in there.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I've done mapping and other building things, a huge one being Robot Arena 2. you design a robot and fight it. We (the good players) would put 10's of hours into our bots. Most of us would trade/share them so people could improve on them, and they did. Totally radical new designs emerged, and i was flattered to see a sliver of my design in some1 else's bot.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Wonderful. That's your prerogative to make the design public-domain. However, the NS mappers HAVE NOT CHOSEN THAT. Meaning, they retain final say on what goes on with THEIR maps.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I think that if u rip a map and no one likes it because the origional is better, no one will play it. If its better, we can all learn and have fun on it. yeah it wasnt a totally origional map, but hey, ITS FUN. if you put tons of work into something (on the computer) and isome1 'destroys' it, its not that bad...you have unlimited copies of it
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
'Better'? The only one who decides if it is better or worse is the MAP'S CREATOR. It is not a vote. It is not a democracy. It is a privately-owned work of art, available for public viewing. And it does not MATTER how many copies are made, they all, technically, belong to the map's creator. It does not matter if you got it off a free download site. It does not matter if you did not have to buy it. It does not matter if it is a digital file which can be reproduced countless times perfectly. It is not yours to modify.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
i personally wouldnt play on a server with modified maps, ONLY because i think the origionals KICK **** as they are.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I cannot help but agree with this sentiment. They do kick ****, it just takes the **** outta me when I see people vandalizing artwork and screaming at the top of their lungs that it's okay because it's digital.

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.

Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.

I can see it now:
"Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map." </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First of all, your first point is just silly. That's like saying you can use a McDonalds toy, but not the screws that were used to build it.

Secondly, you CAN tell them who you want playing your map. Will they say: "okay, we'll do that"? No, they'll throw you and your map out on your ****, but you DO have the right. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Silly, really?

I thought I was making a point that Talesin's was silly in itself....By him saying above that "utilizing any portion of a creator's work without permission is illegal"

So does that mean I have permission to use it because I downloaded NS, or I don't have permission to use it and therefore should request permission as soon as I start a server.

As far as the right to say who can and can't play your map, you are pretty much throwing that out the window as soon as you give them the map to put in the mod, is that what you are saying there Teflon? That is what it sounds like...By giving them the map to put in the mod, you are giving the NS community permission to use your Copyrighted work, as long as they are doing nothing to affect gameplay, or map layout, then what is the problem?

Kung Fu Squirrel...I agree that when things break and it is posted, then it is the creators responsibility to listen and fix it, that is why I like the NS community. Let me get this right...your telling me that a temporary fix to the problem at hand, one that would make your map playable, but not change the layout or the gameplay, you would be totally against to the point of not letting anyone play it?

I am not saying that we as admins or even NS community members have the right to dramatically change your map and then call it our own...I have never stated that, I am saying sometimes there are necessary evils that are required in order to get the job done. M$ anyone?

Talesin · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
As far as the right to say who can and can't play your map, you are pretty much throwing that out the window as soon as you give them the map to put in the mod, is that what you are saying there Talesin? That is what it sounds like...By giving them the map to put in the mod, you are giving the NS community permission to use your Copyrighted work, as long as they are doing nothing to affect gameplay, or map layout, then what is the problem?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You just replied to Teflon, not Talesin, braniac.

Additionally, you are taking the quote out of context... most notably the bit about 'derivative works' at the end. Stripping out entities is creating a derivative work, and is illegal under US copyright law. I thought that part would be pretty obvious, but apparently I have to spell out every possible misunderstanding someone may have with my text, so as to avoid future incidents of this kind.

Teflon · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
As far as the right to say who can and can't play your map, you are pretty much throwing that out the window as soon as you give them the map to put in the mod, is that what you are saying there Talesin? That is what it sounds like...By giving them the map to put in the mod, you are giving the NS community permission to use your Copyrighted work, as long as they are doing nothing to affect gameplay, or map layout, then what is the problem?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You just replied to Teflon, not Talesin, braniac.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Okay that made me laugh.

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 03:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
As far as the right to say who can and can't play your map, you are pretty much throwing that out the window as soon as you give them the map to put in the mod, is that what you are saying there Talesin? That is what it sounds like...By giving them the map to put in the mod, you are giving the NS community permission to use your Copyrighted work, as long as they are doing nothing to affect gameplay, or map layout, then what is the problem?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You just replied to Teflon, not Talesin, braniac.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Fixed it...thanks for the wonderful comment on my brain capacity...I had posted it and was in the process of fixing, nice to know we are all civil people that can carry on conversations without taking it all personal and pointing out the flaws in other peoples attempt at a good argument!

Teflon · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.

Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.

I can see it now:
"Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map." </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
First of all, your first point is just silly. That's like saying you can use a McDonalds toy, but not the screws that were used to build it.

Secondly, you CAN tell them who you want playing your map. Will they say: "okay, we'll do that"? No, they'll throw you and your map out on your ****, but you DO have the right. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Silly, really?

I thought I was making a point that Talesin's was silly in itself....By him saying above that "utilizing any portion of a creator's work without permission is illegal"

So does that mean I have permission to use it because I downloaded NS, or I don't have permission to use it and therefore should request permission as soon as I start a server.

As far as the right to say who can and can't play your map, you are pretty much throwing that out the window as soon as you give them the map to put in the mod, is that what you are saying there Teflon? That is what it sounds like...By giving them the map to put in the mod, you are giving the NS community permission to use your Copyrighted work, as long as they are doing nothing to affect gameplay, or map layout, then what is the problem?

Kung Fu Squirrel...I agree that when things break and it is posted, then it is the creators responsibility to listen and fix it, that is why I like the NS community. Let me get this right...your telling me that a temporary fix to the problem at hand, one that would make your map playable, but not change the layout or the gameplay, you would be totally against to the point of not letting anyone play it?

I am not saying that we as admins or even NS community members have the right to dramatically change your map and then call it our own...I have never stated that, I am saying sometimes there are necessary evils that are required in order to get the job done. M$ anyone?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You <b>really</b> need to learn the difference between OWNING something and owning the RIGHTS to something... when you buy a Honda, do you have to ask if you can drive it around with the Honda logos on it? No, because you OWN it and can therefor USE it. You OWN the copy of NS you downloaded.

eVox · September 2003

to clarify: i dont think the ppl ripping the maps SHOULD be doing it, but i am glad they are.

<b>I haven't even gotten on to the points on why hacked maps are even worse due to the confusion they can spread into a player base, particularly new players who then have no idea what's going on when suddenly they walk around Eclipse and there isn't a hive in the marine spawn anymore...</b>

that is an incredible valid and useful point.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Again, I bring up the point I brought up in another discussion before - This is a setting in which we, the creators of the NS content, actually listen to you! Your opinion will be heard - not necessarily agreed with, but heard. So why do you feel the need to completely bypass that and take matters into your own hands?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

you listen to us, you most likely even TRY our ideas out and find that they are crap and so u dont add them in. you ARE doing what is best for us.

as humans, we like to see things first hand. I modded Quake 1 to shoot 40 rockets a second, make never ending, expontentially increasing grenade chains, monsters that threw dead bodies. sure, it SUCKS. there is a reason the creators didnt do this. but it was fun to play with it and see if my ideas had any value.

we are curious, we want to try things, and try to make them better. the things we tried that didnt work died. its evolution. so i think people should be allowed to try things with the maps. ALL of them will die, its inevitable. however, servers running these wack-maps should:

BOLDLY show that the maps are modified
and
give OVERWHELEMING credit to the origional author

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So the admins take it upon themselves to do our job, which is a flat-out slap in the face, effectively saying, "look, you suck. This is all wrong. I know way better than you, and rather than bring up my concern in a normal fashion, I'm going to hack your map to my own specifications." Thanks a lot, I'm glad I spend my time creating content for you to enjoy so you can **** on it later.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

when i modded quake, i never felt that i was better than them or that they suck or that anything like that. i was grateful that they made something that i couldnt and that i managed to edit it. If the admins thought u sucked, why would they run anything like ur maps?

25,000 unique players daily. maby 500 play on hack-map servers. and you are pouting about 'wasting your time'. i love your maps. i dont want to play with anything in them, fiddle, or rip them. you did such a good job i have no urge. if i had all the origional map files and could change anything in it, i wouldnt.

Talesin · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Fixed it...thanks for the wonderful comment on my brain capacity...I had posted it and was in the process of fixing, nice to know we are all civil people that can carry on conversations without taking it all personal and pointing out the flaws in other peoples attempt at a good argument!
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Just returning the favor. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

KungFuSquirrel · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 02:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> your telling me that a temporary fix to the problem at hand, one that would make your map playable, but not change the layout or the gameplay, you would be totally against to the point of not letting anyone play it? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'll make my own map playable, thank you very much. And gameplay already <i>is</i> being changed; I've seen releases of such maps on these very forums.

I also note that you said there was no problem as long as they didn't change the layout or gameplay. So does it change things knowing that I've seen versions of Eclipse released with the Hive in marine spawn and MS in Computer Core? Does it change things knowing that we had an ugly fiasco a while back when someone released a hacked version of Nothing with 'tweaked' gameplay?

There is no reason I should see entity reduced versions of my maps because I have taken those steps already. There is no reason I should see gameplay-adjusted versions of my maps because I've spent months trying to get it just right and will continue to spend months more making sure that it gets the attention it needs.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I modded Quake 1 to shoot 40 rockets a second, make never ending, expontentially increasing grenade chains, monsters that threw dead bodies. sure, it SUCKS.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The immediate follow-up question is then this: Did you release it? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> i love your maps. i dont want to play with anything in them, fiddle, or rip them. you did such a good job i have no urge. if i had all the origional map files and could change anything in it, i wouldnt. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Thank you very much. That really does mean a lot.

Confused · September 2003

there is fair use and then there is un fair use. we the mappers give you the players permission to play our maps. this does not give you permision to do any thing else at all. there for feel free and play our maps but please dont edit them. is this that hard?

all we ask is that you respect our maps becasue we sent for *****ing ever on them if you want something changed ask us its not hard to find us we wander about in the mysterious mapping forum and most if not all of u shave meail adresses!

uffo · September 2003

lots of you have said "if you don't like it, change server". That's not really fair to mappers who have
made the maps and therefore have the copyrights.
You're doing wrong and you know it!

The right thing to do would be like this: "If your server can't handle it, remove it from your mapcycle"

Olmy · September 2003

I don't see why this is such a problem. As a mapper you realise that your map (in the case of the official maps certainly) is being used on many servers, and if admins have the ability to make changes to the map TEMPORARILY then they may do so. Why is it such a problem to do this? It's not like your defacing the original mona lisa which, as an artists creation, is the only real copy. Why do you care is one of the many many servers have made minor, temporary changes which is effectively a 'poster copy' of the original (in terms of an artwork of course). People have the right to deface posters of the mona lisa, or whatever artwork (and people have). So just, get over it. It's not important at all.

KungFuSquirrel · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Sep 17 2003, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So just, get over it. It's not important at all.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Dedicate your life to something you love doing and see if you still maintain that attitude.

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Fixed it...thanks for the wonderful comment on my brain capacity...I had posted it and was in the process of fixing, nice to know we are all civil people that can carry on conversations without taking it all personal and pointing out the flaws in other peoples attempt at a good argument!
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Just returning the favor. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
NP <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Olmy · September 2003

I'm currently mapping aswell, but if you read what i said apart from the last two sentances the majority of server don't partake in this practice, so its not a problem. Why do you care if a handful of people do this? People are gonna notice that things have been removed from the map. Are you worried that they are slowly damaging your maps reputation by changing people's perception of your design? I don't get it to be honest.

eVox · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So just, get over it. It's not important at all. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Its not your opinion to make.

You're driving to the national NS mapper's convention. in front of the building ur car catches fire, trapping you inside. none of the mappers think that YOU are important, and 'just get over it', leaving u trapped in the burning car.

personally i dont think the mappers should be this concerned about their maps being hacked. I think they should be flattered. but they arnt. so i dont tell them how they should feel, i try and pursuade them to a median where they might be satisfied. if you give me an opposing arguement, i WILL strenghten it. what I think and what everyone thinks IS NOT RIGHT. but if we can at least agree on something, we can be happy. a combined solution is better than MY solution because it makes more than just me somewhat happy.
wanted to get that off my back.

in the end i think we should all be grateful to the mappers for such a great job they do and their hard work for our enjoyment. and i think the mappers should be grateful for being able give us these gifts and for being able to make our lives better.

SentrySteve · September 2003

maybe im missing something here but all the original poster was talking about was when servers remove particle effects to improve performance and lower CPU lag. Back when NS was extremely CPU intensive (it still might be?) many servers that had 16+ player slots open had to remove these effects. If they did not, I doubt the servers would have 1) stayed up or 2) would have been able to keep their higher number of player slots open. Would the mappers rather have their maps particle effects in constantly, and watch the NS server numbers drop, or would they like to have their maps played and enjoyed on a server box that isn't being consumed by one mod/server.

MMZ_Torak · September 2003

...And I suppose that if Barry Bonds could hit more Homeruns with a modified bat (cork) he should be allowed to because he owns the bat?

..or I could change the page numbering scheme in a best seller, move a few chapters around and get a pulitzer?

You can't even make some repairs to a car you OWN without voiding the warranty....

This is turning into a shouting match, I'm out.

Olmy · September 2003

I don't think I actually said that the mappers aren't important, just that the issue isn't important. But, thanks for twisting my words around, and for subtly telling me i should die.

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You <b>really</b> need to learn the difference between OWNING something and owning the RIGHTS to something... when you buy a Honda, do you have to ask if you can drive it around with the Honda logos on it? No, because you OWN it and can therefor USE it. You OWN the copy of NS you downloaded.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I am pointing out the flaws in your logic, all I am saying is that by them giving the maps to the NS team the are allowing us to use them...Owning and rights have nothign to do with this. By giving someone permission to use it you are walking a thin grey line on the <a href='http://www.copyright.gov' target='_blank'>Copyright laws</a>. There is such a thing as fair use in copyright, in which you can use someones work in other ways intended as long as credit is given where credit is due. When in doubt about this grey area, it is necessary at that point to get the owners permission, which some permission is implied by them giving the map to the NS team.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'll make my own map playable, thank you very much. And gameplay already is being changed; I've seen releases of such maps on these very forums.

I also note that you said there was no problem as long as they didn't change the layout or gameplay. So does it change things knowing that I've seen versions of Eclipse released with the Hive in marine spawn and MS in Computer Core? Does it change things knowing that we had an ugly fiasco a while back when someone released a hacked version of Nothing with 'tweaked' gameplay?

There is no reason I should see entity reduced versions of my maps because I have taken those steps already. There is no reason I should see gameplay-adjusted versions of my maps because I've spent months trying to get it just right and will continue to spend months more making sure that it gets the attention it needs.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And you are commended for making your map playable and doing what you have done.

Changing layout and gameplay is exactly what it sounds like (moving resources, hives, ladders, etc...) this I don't agree with!

As far as most of this conversation is going, it is purely based (from my side) on the issue of performance, would I ever hack your map, no! Would I change layout and gameplay, no!

If we had an issue in the community where entities were yet again causing problems with server performance and it could be fixed by removing certain entities through a plugin, thereby creating better performance, would I do it. I may depending on the posts and interaction that the community has at the point of the problem. If you stated that there was nothing else that could be done, that we would have to suffer with the poor performance, that gives me two options, remove the map (as would other server admins) or try to keep the map alive and in rotation til a fix was made through a plugin or a non-official patch.

Kung Fu Squirrel you have done a great job! You have continued to work on it! I understand your side of the issue, that is why I would never move spawn, hives, resources, etc...or tweak for better gameplay, it is your map that is up to you. As a server admin, my allegance lies to the processor power and memory consumption that any map/mod puts on the server. I am tied to money, bandwidth, and the pursuit of the best server for the price. I also have put 1000 of hours into the gaming community, doing stuff that I love, and I listen to others to improve.

Just sitting here on my side of the fence, all alone getting bashed with rocks. *sniff*

marcos · September 2003

As a mapper, I create my maps as I want them <u>to be</u>. They are beeing tested for lag, ping and other server problems. I totly understand KFS point and I agree with him. It's like someone rips apart your map to change it to the worse, and if you really are proud of your map (in most cases mappers are) this is a god damn hard smack in the face.

kavasa · September 2003

R.e.: legal opinion. Insofar as I know, none of us are attorneys. If someone here has taken the bar, I implore you to speak up.

That said:
1. You believe the action to be in contravention of copyright law.
2. I believe that it is not.

That's as far as that conversation can go, saying anything further is definite is talking out of your colon. Legality or illegality is an issue of (admittedly somewhat malleable) fact, fact which has likely already been decided and for which there is precedent. Absent an example or examples of precedent with accompanying jurisprudential statement, neither of us is in any position to state <i>fact</i>, only what we <i>believe to be</i> fact.

I suppose where we <i>can</i> go somewhere is: is this moral or immoral (alternatively: is it insulting or not)?

I submit that it is neither insulting nor immoral. It is not immoral because it makes no claim to the abstract object that is the actual map, as declared final by its creator.

Allow me to define that a little bit more rigorously. In ethical terms, I would say that The Map is an abstract object, which is to say that there is a non-physical object which could be best conceived us as a consistent, exclusive, exhaustive set with its members being <i>all</i> of the properties of the map.

I think it's fairly obvious that The Map, then, is immutable by any but its creator. It is impossible to change it, unless you are the creator or in the group of people commonly accepted to be its creator.

What, then, is being changed? A copy of the map, of course. In my opinion, it is not immoral to alter a copy. I am tempted to appeal to analogy, but analogies are always imperfect and in any case can be twisted either way. Furthermore they are likely to be rejected out of hand, since they are always framed in terms such that if one accepts the analogy as stated then one agrees with the framer's position. So I will simply re-state my position: it is not immoral to alter a copy.

Furthermore, it is not insulting unless one claims that both:
1. The alteration <i>improved</i> the work in question, and
2. It was <i>obvious</i>

Art is criticized all the time. Criticism alone is not an insult, and in fact the insult if it <i>does</i> exist does so independant of the criticism.

Why yes, I <i>am</i> a senior double-majoring in English and Philosophy with an emphasis on ethics and an eye towards entering law school. Good of you to notice.

eVox · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I don't think I actually said that the mappers aren't important, just that the issue isn't important. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

you didnt say that. nor was i trying to convey that you were. you said "So just, get over it. It's not important at all. "

if you think something isnt important, it doesnt mean you should just "get over it". that was what i was saying. and i used that example so that it would have a good chance of hitting home with you.

<b>But, thanks for twisting my words around, and for subtly telling me i should die. </b>

its another way to make something (a concept, idea) to hit home. PSAs (public service announcements) dont tell you to "Buckle up, it prevents injuries!", they tell you to buckle up because "it saves lives." both are vaild in saying what wearing a seatbelt will do, but can you guess why the dont tell you to buckle up to prevent injuries?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just sitting here on my side of the fence, all alone getting bashed with rocks. *sniff*</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

im on ur side too! but im throwing rocks at you cuz its funny <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eVo.x @ Sep 17 2003, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just sitting here on my side of the fence, all alone getting bashed with rocks. *sniff*</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

im on ur side too! but im throwing rocks at you cuz its funny <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Glad somebody does! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Teflon · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 03:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> You <b>really</b> need to learn the difference between OWNING something and owning the RIGHTS to something... when you buy a Honda, do you have to ask if you can drive it around with the Honda logos on it? No, because you OWN it and can therefor USE it. You OWN the copy of NS you downloaded. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I am pointing out the flaws in your logic, all I am saying is that by them giving the maps to the NS team the are allowing us to use them...Owning and rights have nothign to do with this. By giving someone permission to use it you are walking a thin grey line on the <a href='http://www.copyright.gov' target='_blank'>Copyright laws</a>. There is such a thing as fair use in copyright, in which you can use someones work in other ways intended as long as credit is given where credit is due. When in doubt about this grey area, it is necessary at that point to get the owners permission, which some permission is implied by them giving the map to the NS team. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
KungFuSquirrel makes a map. It's his copyright. KFS can either:

A) Give all rights to Flayra. Usually this accompanies a monetary fee. For example, we tried to buy the rights to Mr. Ed for purposes of manufacturing a Mr. Ed model.

B) Retain the rights to the map and give the map to Flayra with the stipulation of using it in the NS Mod. Either constituting a verbal or written agreement, for all intents and purposes, it can be assumed Flayra and/or KFS retain the rights to the map. I would assume it'd be joint, because KFS used copyrighted textures and sounds in the map that Flayra owns the rights to. For simplicity, the NS Dev team owns the rights.

What this means:

The NS Dev team (Either Flayra or KFS) can alter and edit the map as they wish. They can take it down from use to the public. They can release it as Public Domain, meaning it is exempt from all copyrights for purposes of altering or modifying. However, it still has a copyright of sorts signifying that it is Public Domain: Meaning you cannot take something that is Public Domain and market it for profit.

You are an End User. While NS does not have an EULA bundled with it, it most certainly should. The NS EULA might contain the following:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The software is designed for use with the Half-Life application software product (the "Host Application") published by Sierra, and are granted a nonexclusive license to use such software with the Host Application only, provided you possess a valid license from Sierra for the Host Application. Except as set forth below, such software is licensed to you subject to the terms and conditions of the End-User License Agreement. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

What does this mean? It means that you legally can use Natural Selection with Half Life.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The software in its entirety is protected by copyright laws. You may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce the software to human-perceivable form, or disable any functionality which limits the use of the software. You may not attempt to modify, adapt, translate, rent, sublicense, assign, or resell for profit software or related materials or create derivative works based upon the software or any part thereof. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

This is what this argument of pro-hack is all about. This statement right here. While there is not an EULA, there also is not a GPL (General Public Lisence) that discloses that you ARE allowed to reverse-engineer or modify the software.

In conclusion:

1) You are not the NS team. You do not own any right to the NS software. You are violating copyright laws by reverse-engineering the code, modifying, or otherwise removing functionality of the software without written consent by the owners of the rights to the software.

2) You are an end user and are bound by any EULA or copyright laws by the software, as installation signifies your consent.

Olmy · September 2003

This could boil down to flaming (is that the sound of an admin locking the thread i hear?)

ok evo, i'm kinda confused about your standpoint, the reason i said 'its not important' is because in the long run it really doesn't matter. Why get in a rage about an issue that will probably be forgotten. and hence why i said 'get over it' ; also because there is nothing you can do about it.

and secondly i don't see why me being in a car accident is even slightly relevent to this situation and why you couldn't find a more tasteful example. i mean seriously what were you trying to say with that? the only thing indicating we were talking about a map issue was with 'on your way to a mapping conference' which is an even more peculiar aspect of your post. But yes, you implied in this situation that if something isn't important you should leave it alone 'to burn out' and thats what i was trying to say. I don't see your problem with that standpoint.

kavasa · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>While NS does not have an EULA bundled with it</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So you, a layman, are arguing that we should believe you when you say that we're violating copyright agreement because we are not acting in accordance with an EULA <i>that we never accepted because it didn't exist?</i>

And it is your contention that we are being <i>unreasonable</i> in doubting this assertion?

What?

Teflon · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 17 2003, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>While NS does not have an EULA bundled with it</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So you, a layman, are arguing that we should believe you when you say that we're violating copyright agreement because we are not acting in accordance with an EULA <i>that we never accepted because it didn't exist?</i>

And it is your contention that we are being <i>unreasonable</i> in doubting this assertion?

What? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
EULA and copyright agreements are two different things. Please read the second excerpt common in EULAs. It states, verbatim, that the software is protected by copyright laws and you legally cannot modify it for your own personal use, and it must remain intact as intended. It is simply there as a reminder.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The software in its entirety is <b>protected by copyright laws</b>. You may <b>not decompile</b>, reverse engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce the software to human-perceivable form, <b>or disable any functionality which limits the use of the software</b>. <b>You may not attempt to modify</b>, adapt, translate, rent, sublicense, assign, or resell for profit software or related materials or create derivative works based upon the software or any part thereof. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Read it again.

<b>ALL OF WHICH IS PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT LAWS</b>

One does not have to register for a copyright. All original works are already copyright automatically.

God I feel like I'm explaining why the sky is blue to 4 year olds who just keep asking 'Why?'.

Robert_Paulson · September 2003

To make it clear, I am <b>not</b> pro-hack!!!
I am pro-performance!

Teflon have you ever owned/operated/payed for a server?

pro-hack = Modifying the map so that it plays the way YOU want it to, including but not limited to changing hive locations, resource towers, spawn points, moving ladders, removing rails, removing glass, etc...

pro-performance = Removing lag inducing features in a map that have no effect on gameplay but affect the overall appearance of the map (steam, partical effects, etc...)

Since the servers run well without having to go to such a drastic measure as removing entities from a map, I don't do such a thing.

However as a server operator, I have had to remove maps from rotation in the past due to this issue (bast, hera). I did so because they were the great lag inducers of 1.04. Now if this would of happened on every map, I would of taken even more measures to make sure the server would run properly (see above).

Am I hacking the map at this point, no, I am altering it so that there is less of a performance issue on my server. At which point when joining the server in big bold letters you would see the following.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This server is ran with "X" plugin, which reduces entities on maps so that this server can run the maps without taking a performance hit. This in no way alters the original layout or gameflow design of the map, it removes special effects such as steam and ligting effects. If you do not agree with this form of plugin, please disconnect now.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Now that the issues with server performance is fixed, and the maps have been made better by the NS mapping team, we as admins don't have to take measures, however some admins still run on slower servers, and require that these changes be made in order to give the NS community a server to play on.

In order to admin servers you require metamod, and adminmod. To add to that you also are best fit if you run the stuck mod, do to clipping issues that occur. By doing this I am adding something to NS but this is ok.

Those of you that say this is different, I disagree, you are modding something to your liking, therefore you are now infringing on the implied copyright of the developers and designers. Stuck mod in effect allows you to get out of being stuck because the commander accidentally placed a turret on your head....which you could then argue that the comm shouldn't be so silly, and you should be stuck!

kavasa · September 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>God I feel like I'm explaining why the sky is blue to 4 year olds who just keep asking 'Why?'.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Oh, and now you're mistaking "someone disagrees with me" for "someone is stupid". Spare us your patronizing, sir.

For one, I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that a map falls under the definition of "software" since it is not in fact executable. The HL engine is software, the map is merely data that engine acts upon.

Really, we don't even need to go further. Neither of us have taken and passed a bar exam (yet) and therefore for anyone to accept <i>your</i> interpretation of legal language - especially since none of us agreed to that language, your flippant dismissal of that point aside - out of hand <i>would</i> be stupid. I challenge you again to find clear precedent.

Hacking The Maps Again

Comments