It's easy for you to be the hypocrite here. You say it's wrong to change a map in one way or another to "respect the mapper", well I'm pretty sure in at least one occasion, let's have an example - you installed unofficial "mods" or even "hacks" for your forum software simply to make it different. What's the difference? Loads of people pirate software or CD's too, so I don't feel sorry for anyone that had one server change one thing on your map... You should be happy people are doing something different with your map, at least your credits are still on it.
There is no point in debating this issue. The whole purpose of Natural Selection is to give people a good time playing it. All the work and money the developers, map creators, server operators etc. put into it is just for this: People having fun. If we start talking about mapper sueing server ops it's the end of fun and that may be the end of our community. So please, find a server that runs NS the way you like or start your own server.
I'm a big fan of "how NS was meant to be played", i.e. the original map layout and features, and all mechanics of the game intact. No plugins, mods, cheats, exploits, or 'streamlining' of the maps. After too much of this, NS isn't really "NS" anymore.
And what's wrong with flexibility? Doing something different with your map. The server owners have the right to do as they want. And changing a few things around isn't exactly "hacking" now, is it.
Talesin said it better then I've been trying to <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you can't run the map, and you're too cheap, thightwadded, poor, or lazy to upgrade your computer, then you will NOT be running that map, under any circumstances.
If it WAS my map, I wouldn't be bothered, and can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. All of the guys who get their maps into the beta versions of NS, have something good to put on their CV's anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--RoCkIn RiCkY+Sep 17 2003, 12:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RoCkIn RiCkY @ Sep 17 2003, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If it WAS my map, I wouldn't be bothered, and can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. All of the guys who get their maps into the beta versions of NS, have something good to put on their CV's anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Read my post up there about people ripping your mod. If you think people ripping your map is fine... then where is your map? I'd be more then happy to put my name on it and distribute it as mine and label you as a hack who stole it from me.
BTW: I think my sig ESPECIALLY applies to people as selfish, uncaring, and callous as YOU, Ricky.
the problem isn't so much that they are changing things, the problem is that they are making things lamer.
Flayra should say something like:
"hey you guys, stop crapifying my mod by taking things out of it to make it more boring, and stop putting it on such weak servers so that everyone lags and it just basically becomes an annoying unpleasant experience for many people, and stop changing the level or enabling cheats while people are in the middle of an intense long match, and stop kicking people for no reason, coz i don't want people to generally have a bitter taste from playing my mod"
if he doesn't then that's a minus point against Flayra and he'll lose out to other games that don't allow people to defamate their games. Flayra has a responsibility to assure quality by taking action against people that annoy his consumers. i know this game is free but he should start practicing now because NS for HL2 is not going to be free.
for example companies that do not take anti cheating measures for multiplayer will not survive because people will just get so annoyed they will stop buying games from that company coz they'll get fed-up of cheaters ruining their fun. that's actually a good way for one company to sabotage another company if they were really evil. you could just hire some people to constantly cheat in your competitors games and you'll eventually drive away their customers. and there are other ways to annoy customers and i'm getting annoyed with what many admins are doing and i'd rather that there be few servers where none are annoying than many servers where i have to search to find those non-annoying ones.
btw another thing that this reminds me of is airlines that show movies in the plane. i'd rather there be no movies in the plane. they should just put TV programs on. you can't enjoy movies properly in an airplane because the quality of the audio and the video is important and i get angry when they provide this service. and i get annoyed that i can catch glimpses of other people's screens and see the movies they are watching; it's kind of like those annoying people that tell you all the cool parts and endings of films despite the fact that you tell them you haven't seen the film yet, i suppose they think they are doing a service by giving us information for free and saving us from having to pay to see the films for ourselves.
Changing the maps layout, design, flow, textures, or any other piece of the map is wrong, that I agree with. I would never play a map, or do that to someone else's design.
The question needs to be asked, what was changed on the map that started this thread?
If the server side variable allows me to remove entities, then am I in the wrong for doing this? It was part of the progamer (Flayra's) intention to give the server ops the right to turn this on or off. Am I off base here with this assumption? So accordingly, the mappers new this when giving there maps to the NS team to use, if they didn't, then it would be there right to remove the map from the NS team.
During 1.04 there were two maps (bast, hera) that could not be played on the server (1.2 ghz, 512mb ram on linux) I ran. These are both good maps and deserve every chance to be played, however no matter what we did with the server these maps would cause lag on the server. If I could of reduced the lag on those two maps by setting a server side variable that would of effectively removed the lag, but changed some of the appearance (entities and such) of these maps then I would of.
How are you (those that don't run servers) even going to suggest that someone doesn't run a server for the community, that we server ops should put up more cash, more hardware, a faster connection, or whatever so that you can enjoy the game the way YOU want to. I pay for and admin a server because I enjoy the game, because several of my clanmates enjoy the game, and it is fun. I can guarantee that not everyone will like the way my server is ran, or they may not like the way the admins do there job, however that still doesn't give any one that doesn't put money up for my server the right to say that if it isn't this "way" then you shouldn't run it.
I just gave you three fitty last week, now here I go giving you another of my 2 cents....
the primary reason teh mappers are not happy abotu this is first off the 6-12 months that are spent on their work. that assumes that you actaully work on the map every day as well. each map truely is a work of art weather or not you see it as one. i recongnize that servers may strip etities from their maps, however please do it in a manner which does not involve the creation of invisable walls ( removal of a func_wall). and please contact the creator and ask them permission. i am sure that the text file that come with the maps will give you some idea as to how to contact them. so please just respect other peoples intellectual preoperty.
in refrence to the arguement that copy right transfers with the file <a href='http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/202.html' target='_blank'>look here</a>.
<a href='http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/' target='_blank'>teh full law</a>
maps should not be changed <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> if you want to change the maps give them different names and add your name to them dont embarass the people who put lots of time into designing beautiful maps by takeing out all of the beauty rename them like this: bast-boring or caged-boring or veil-boring then all will know they are not the originals you will get the credit for the work (or lack there of) people then will see they are not originals and they can chose to join that server or not
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited September 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Nomble+Sep 17 2003, 10:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nomble @ Sep 17 2003, 10:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> lol do anyone here who bash us server admins know how much work there is to hack a map. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do any server admins who vandalize a map know how much work is put into the creation of said map, over the 6-12+ months it is being created?
Pardon me for speaking brusquely, but an NS map does not spring forth fully-formed from the depths of someone's rectum. Most ESPECIALLY thought-out, developed, tested, reworked, and beautiful maps as the NS officials are.
Short and sweet. KFS and a number of other mappers were EXTREMELY annoyed when the Stripent plugin (NOTE: PLUGIN; As in, NOT a standard NS tweak!) was initially used when even monster servers were brought to their knees, in the days of v1.0x (0-3). A few were voicing a consideration to have their maps pulled from NS, due to the outright desecration of their creation. When they were ready to LEAVE based upon the widespread use of this when it was virtually a neccessity, what gives you the balls to essentially give them the finger NOW, when server load has dropped drastically?
Now then. As we have someone who has spoken up on the subject. What <i>exactly</i>, <b>Nomble</b>, gives you the right to take a corn-filled **** on someone's original artwork, against their expressed wishes?
(edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit)
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+Sep 17 2003, 08:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ Sep 17 2003, 08:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Stripping out entities and saying "this is a map that I am crediting to its creator" is <i>not</i> in contravention of U.S. copyright law.
Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is coming from someone whose Avatar and sig are used without permission of the original creator.
i believe strongly that things shoud be judged on their intentions. I do not think thoes admins (of the modded maps) are trying to deface the maps maliciously.<b> they just want it to run better on people's computers so more people can play and have fun. </b>
if someone killed 10 people they would be seen as a murderer
but if they killed 10 people so that 2,000 could live, they did something good. its all about your intentions.
I love ns_veil and ns_eclipse, and they are beautiful maps. I dont know if i would like them so much if they wernt so cool looking. But i definetely wouldnt like them if they ran at 15fps b/c they had so much visuals. This is what i think the admins were trying to prevent.
<!--QuoteBegin--KungFuSquirrel+Sep 16 2003, 09:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KungFuSquirrel @ Sep 16 2003, 09:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So, wait, my maps -aren't- original creations? ****...
Just because it's free doesn't mean you're not stomping all over someone's hard work. Sure, server operators put a lot into their servers - and I do respect that. But I don't go around trying to change what they've worked so hard to establish.
Now what about a regular sculpture in an outside sculpture garden or in front of a building somewhere? I pay nothing to see this... So clearly it's ok if I take a hacksaw and hammer and chisel to it, right? That is what you're getting at, isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think your analogy went bunk somewhere. Let's say someone gave you a sculpture for free (just like god gave us NS), and then you put hack saw to it (modded the maps) and put it on your front lawn (ala the server) for the world to see, it would be right and dandy.
It's been a while since I've taken legal classes but from what I remember the first half of Talesin's original post is correct, it would be improper for someone to strip out map entities and then call it their *own* creation, but I don't believe you could call someone up on infringing your copy rights unless they declare the new map to be theirs. If I take this Wendy's burger wrapper lying on my desk and use this green marker I also have here to change the copyrighted emblem I'm not infringing any copy right because I'm not going around insisting it's my own work. The server admins aren't saying, "This is our new map," and thus to my knowledge aren't stepping on your copy rights.
PS: Make veil green, orange hurts my eyes.
Edit: not saying I agree with modifying maps, but I don't think any court in the land would take this one seriously. If you don't like how a server is just play elsewhere.
Jeez, why isn't this locked yet, there is just no talking to some people. This is the internet where people think they have ownership over anything on their PC's. This attitude has lead to pirated music, games, and what-have-you. They don't listen to reason, even when a map creator speaks it.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
And we all know where the road paved with good intentions goes.
Regardless. If a server is unable to deal with the vanilla maps (which any number of servers are able to cope with), they are free to remove the ones which kill the server. They are NOT free to cut down a map to fit into their system specifications.
Here, all we have is this steamer trunk, so we'll hack off your legs and arms, then ship you third-class freight, mmkay? I mean, that's perfectly fine, isn't it? You get where you're going, don't you?
[QUOTE=[WWJD]JesusC,Sep 17 2003, 02:30 PM] [QUOTE=KungFuSquirrel,Sep 16 2003, 09:37 AM] So, wait, my maps -aren't- original creations? ****...
Just because it's free doesn't mean you're not stomping all over someone's hard work. Sure, server operators put a lot into their servers - and I do respect that. But I don't go around trying to change what they've worked so hard to establish. [/QUOTE] Going to be brash like Talesin <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>It is not <i>YOURS</i>. No one <i>GAVE</i> you NS! You simply have the right to download and run the program, not rip the statue out of the lawn, haul it home, and THEN mangle it, and then tell the cops 'I'm allowed to because it was in public, so therefore I can own it'.</b>
Geesh only people that have graduated 11th grade should be responding to this...
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Sep 17 2003, 02:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Sep 17 2003, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jeez, why isn't this locked yet, there is just no talking to some people. This is the internet where people think they have ownership over anything on their PC's. This attitude has lead to pirated music, games, and what-have-you. They don't listen to reason, even when a map creator speaks it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It isn't locked because it has a purpose... and I don't think it's against forum rules to be just an idiot concerning copyright law.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--[WWJD]JesusC+Sep 17 2003, 08:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WWJD]JesusC @ Sep 17 2003, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's been a while since I've taken legal classes but from what I remember the first half of Talesin's original post is correct, it would be improper for someone to strip out map entities and then call it their *own* creation, but I don't believe you could call someone up on infringing your copy rights unless they declare the new map to be theirs. If I take this Wendy's burger wrapper lying on my desk and use this green marker I also have here to change the copyrighted emblem I'm not infringing any copy right because I'm not going around insisting it's my own work. The server admins aren't saying, "This is our new map," and thus to my knowledge aren't stepping on your copy rights.
PS: Make veil green, orange hurts my eyes.
Edit: not saying I agree with modifying maps, but I don't think any court in the land would take this one seriously. If you don't like how a server is just play elsewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The issue is that the map is representative of the original creators work. By changing it you are misrepresenting the standard of the original author's work. This is damaging to their professional reputation and thus grounds for bringing successful litigation.
Oh and if you charge for usage of your server (i.e. Clan hosting, advertising, etc.) in the US, KFS or another mapper can happily turn you in to the US attorney's office, since infringing copyright in order to make profit (which is what you are doing in these cases) is a <b>criminal offence</b>, not a civil one.
It boils down to one simple thing:
Modifying other people's copyrighted work, without express permission from the author, infringes their copyright.
<b>Modifying maps without the express permission of Charles Cleveland, is grounds for litigation. That's where the law stands.</b>
That's the law. Opinions here are kind of irrelevant, since the law is very clear. For those of you who actually care to read up on it, go check out:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Here, all we have is this steamer trunk, so we'll hack off your legs and arms, then ship you third-class freight, mmkay? I mean, that's perfectly fine, isn't it? You get where you're going, don't you? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that isnt intentions....
and it IS ok, it just doesnt happen. There was a rock climber who's arm got stuck between 2 rocks and he was forced to cut it off to survive. is THAT ok? If i needed to get somewhere that badly, damn straight i'd do it.
if they can rip the map and make it better, they should. that is how GODLIKE things are created. ever use linux? yeah that FREE, OPEN-SOUCE program? look what it has become.
I've done mapping and other building things, a huge one being Robot Arena 2. you design a robot and fight it. We (the good players) would put 10's of hours into our bots. Most of us would trade/share them so people could improve on them, and they did. Totally radical new designs emerged, and i was flattered to see a sliver of my design in some1 else's bot.
I think that if u rip a map and no one likes it because the origional is better, no one will play it. If its better, we can all learn and have fun on it. yeah it wasnt a totally origional map, but hey, ITS FUN. if you put tons of work into something (on the computer) and isome1 'destroys' it, its not that bad...you have unlimited copies of it
i personally wouldnt play on a server with modified maps, ONLY because i think the origionals KICK **** as they are.
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--eVo.x+Sep 17 2003, 01:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eVo.x @ Sep 17 2003, 01:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But i definetely wouldnt like them if they ran at 15fps b/c they had so much visuals. This is what i think the admins were trying to prevent. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So the admins take it upon themselves to do our job, which is a flat-out slap in the face, effectively saying, "look, you suck. This is all wrong. I know way better than you, and rather than bring up my concern in a normal fashion, I'm going to hack your map to my own specifications." Thanks a lot, I'm glad I spend my time creating content for you to enjoy so you can **** on it later.
Again, I bring up the point I brought up in another discussion before - This is a setting in which we, the creators of the NS content, <i>actually listen</i> to you! Your opinion will be heard - not necessarily agreed with, but heard. So why do you feel the need to completely bypass that and take matters into your own hands?
I haven't even gotten on to the points on why hacked maps are even worse due to the confusion they can spread into a player base, particularly new players who then have no idea what's going on when suddenly they walk around Eclipse and there isn't a hive in the marine spawn anymore...
For anyone who wasn't around when the Op4 community when the last patch came out, here's a little story. Gearbox spent a lot of time developing new game mechanics for the patch, including a new control point mode. A number of maps were released to be cp_ compatible. The Gearbox guys were hoping that things would go well but were wanting to make sure the gameplay type went over well before doing too much with it and a couple other options available through the new entities and whatnot. Shortly after release, a few people in the Op4 community decided that they didn't like this CP gameplay type, and that it was a cheap attempt by Gearbox to try and make the Op4DM community feel loved while only really caring about Op4CTF (which is a whole other soap opera in itself). So they went through, ripped the maps, and made their own variations and started running them on servers. Now half the servers ran the originals and half ran the hacked versions. Suddenly Gearbox found themselves trying to polish a new game mode where players weren't necessarily playing it their way - making improvement nigh on impossible. Needless to say, Gearbox strongly put their foot down on the matter. And, of course, those responsible defended it as their right, since they knew far better how to make Gearbox's game and how they owned the rights to do whatever they wanted to with Gearbox's content. Oh, it was lovely. And by lovely I mean ugly. Let's try to avoid that, shall we?
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.
Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.
I can see it now: "Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map."
The server plugin that you mentioned was created as a necessity to the evil, known solely as server load. If what you say is true, that mappers were **** at the server ops for doing such a thing. Something as simple as allowing there clientel to play NS. To play in a growing community that was having a performance problem on there servers. Then that is there right as the mapper. However from a growth standpoint, isn't it bad form for mappers to sit there and say:
"I know you can't play my map due to server performance, however I am not going to do anything about it, and you better not either."
So in those instances what do you do, do you just not play a good map, or do you take matters into your own hands. What is the best action to take, if no one is doing anything about it, then what?
Of course this was taken care of and the reason to strip entities out of maps is pretty much gone....
<!--QuoteBegin--eVo.x+Sep 17 2003, 02:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eVo.x @ Sep 17 2003, 02:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and it IS ok, it just doesnt happen. There was a rock climber who's arm got stuck between 2 rocks and he was forced to cut it off to survive. is THAT ok? If i needed to get somewhere that badly, damn straight i'd do it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm just going to happily point out that it was his OWN arm, not someone elses he cut off while they were unaware, and if it were another rock climbers arm he had to cut off, if they consented, it's all fair and just.
This thread should be moved to 'discussions' under the topic "Isn't America's education system great?"
<!--QuoteBegin--(KCSA) Robert Paulson+Sep 17 2003, 02:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ((KCSA) Robert Paulson @ Sep 17 2003, 02:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Sep 17 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.
Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.
I can see it now: "Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, your first point is just silly. That's like saying you can use a McDonalds toy, but not the screws that were used to build it.
Secondly, you CAN tell them who you want playing your map. Will they say: "okay, we'll do that"? No, they'll throw you and your map out on your ****, but you DO have the right.
Comments
It's easy for you to be the hypocrite here. You say it's wrong to change a map in one way or another to "respect the mapper", well I'm pretty sure in at least one occasion, let's have an example - you installed unofficial "mods" or even "hacks" for your forum software simply to make it different. What's the difference? Loads of people pirate software or CD's too, so I don't feel sorry for anyone that had one server change one thing on your map... You should be happy people are doing something different with your map, at least your credits are still on it.
All the work and money the developers, map creators, server operators etc. put into it is just for this: People having fun.
If we start talking about mapper sueing server ops it's the end of fun and that may be the end of our community. So please, find a server that runs NS the way you like or start your own server.
*goes and plays NS on his server*
Respect the creators.
If you can't run the map, and you're too cheap, thightwadded, poor, or lazy to upgrade your computer, then you will NOT be running that map, under any circumstances.
<b>IT ISN'T <i>YOUR</i> MAP!</b>
Read my post up there about people ripping your mod. If you think people ripping your map is fine... then where is your map? I'd be more then happy to put my name on it and distribute it as mine and label you as a hack who stole it from me.
BTW: I think my sig ESPECIALLY applies to people as selfish, uncaring, and callous as YOU, Ricky.
Flayra should say something like:
"hey you guys, stop crapifying my mod by taking things out of it to make it more boring, and stop putting it on such weak servers so that everyone lags and it just basically becomes an annoying unpleasant experience for many people, and stop changing the level or enabling cheats while people are in the middle of an intense long match, and stop kicking people for no reason, coz i don't want people to generally have a bitter taste from playing my mod"
if he doesn't then that's a minus point against Flayra and he'll lose out to other games that don't allow people to defamate their games. Flayra has a responsibility to assure quality by taking action against people that annoy his consumers. i know this game is free but he should start practicing now because NS for HL2 is not going to be free.
for example companies that do not take anti cheating measures for multiplayer will not survive because people will just get so annoyed they will stop buying games from that company coz they'll get fed-up of cheaters ruining their fun. that's actually a good way for one company to sabotage another company if they were really evil. you could just hire some people to constantly cheat in your competitors games and you'll eventually drive away their customers. and there are other ways to annoy customers and i'm getting annoyed with what many admins are doing and i'd rather that there be few servers where none are annoying than many servers where i have to search to find those non-annoying ones.
btw another thing that this reminds me of is airlines that show movies in the plane. i'd rather there be no movies in the plane. they should just put TV programs on. you can't enjoy movies properly in an airplane because the quality of the audio and the video is important and i get angry when they provide this service. and i get annoyed that i can catch glimpses of other people's screens and see the movies they are watching; it's kind of like those annoying people that tell you all the cool parts and endings of films despite the fact that you tell them you haven't seen the film yet, i suppose they think they are doing a service by giving us information for free and saving us from having to pay to see the films for ourselves.
The question needs to be asked, what was changed on the map that started this thread?
If the server side variable allows me to remove entities, then am I in the wrong for doing this? It was part of the progamer (Flayra's) intention to give the server ops the right to turn this on or off. Am I off base here with this assumption? So accordingly, the mappers new this when giving there maps to the NS team to use, if they didn't, then it would be there right to remove the map from the NS team.
During 1.04 there were two maps (bast, hera) that could not be played on the server (1.2 ghz, 512mb ram on linux) I ran. These are both good maps and deserve every chance to be played, however no matter what we did with the server these maps would cause lag on the server. If I could of reduced the lag on those two maps by setting a server side variable that would of effectively removed the lag, but changed some of the appearance (entities and such) of these maps then I would of.
How are you (those that don't run servers) even going to suggest that someone doesn't run a server for the community, that we server ops should put up more cash, more hardware, a faster connection, or whatever so that you can enjoy the game the way YOU want to. I pay for and admin a server because I enjoy the game, because several of my clanmates enjoy the game, and it is fun. I can guarantee that not everyone will like the way my server is ran, or they may not like the way the admins do there job, however that still doesn't give any one that doesn't put money up for my server the right to say that if it isn't this "way" then you shouldn't run it.
I just gave you three fitty last week, now here I go giving you another of my 2 cents....
i recongnize that servers may strip etities from their maps, however please do it in a manner which does not involve the creation of invisable walls ( removal of a func_wall). and please contact the creator and ask them permission. i am sure that the text file that come with the maps will give you some idea as to how to contact them. so please just respect other peoples intellectual preoperty.
in refrence to the arguement that copy right transfers with the file
<a href='http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/202.html' target='_blank'>look here</a>.
<a href='http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/' target='_blank'>teh full law</a>
if you want to change the maps give them different names and add your name to them
dont embarass the people who put lots of time into designing beautiful maps by takeing out all of the beauty
rename them like this:
bast-boring or caged-boring or veil-boring
then all will know they are not the originals
you will get the credit for the work
(or lack there of)
people then will see they are not originals and they can chose to join that server or not
"Natural Selection" is a trademark owned by Charles G. Cleveland</i>
That's Flayra, and noone else. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good Point
but
If people want to "F" around with it. They can do that.
they can't tell to pass it off as there own in any way but with out the servers and server ops there wouldn't be a NS to play.
If they want to ruin the level by hacking it up to get better FPS and speeds... Go ahead, if no one wants to play there as a result, thats there problem!
Just sayin'.
Do any server admins who vandalize a map know how much work is put into the creation of said map, over the 6-12+ months it is being created?
Pardon me for speaking brusquely, but an NS map does not spring forth fully-formed from the depths of someone's rectum. Most ESPECIALLY thought-out, developed, tested, reworked, and beautiful maps as the NS officials are.
Short and sweet. KFS and a number of other mappers were EXTREMELY annoyed when the Stripent plugin (NOTE: PLUGIN; As in, NOT a standard NS tweak!) was initially used when even monster servers were brought to their knees, in the days of v1.0x (0-3). A few were voicing a consideration to have their maps pulled from NS, due to the outright desecration of their creation. When they were ready to LEAVE based upon the widespread use of this when it was virtually a neccessity, what gives you the balls to essentially give them the finger NOW, when server load has dropped drastically?
Now then. As we have someone who has spoken up on the subject. What <i>exactly</i>, <b>Nomble</b>, gives you the right to take a corn-filled **** on someone's original artwork, against their expressed wishes?
(edit) Additionally, utilizing any portion of a creator's art without express permission is flat-out illegal under US copyright law, under the subsection covering 'derivative works'. (/edit)
Just sayin'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is coming from someone whose Avatar and sig are used without permission of the original creator.
LOL.
if someone killed 10 people they would be seen as a murderer
but if they killed 10 people so that 2,000 could live, they did something good. its all about your intentions.
I love ns_veil and ns_eclipse, and they are beautiful maps. I dont know if i would like them so much if they wernt so cool looking. But i definetely wouldnt like them if they ran at 15fps b/c they had so much visuals. This is what i think the admins were trying to prevent.
Just because it's free doesn't mean you're not stomping all over someone's hard work. Sure, server operators put a lot into their servers - and I do respect that. But I don't go around trying to change what they've worked so hard to establish.
Now what about a regular sculpture in an outside sculpture garden or in front of a building somewhere? I pay nothing to see this... So clearly it's ok if I take a hacksaw and hammer and chisel to it, right? That is what you're getting at, isn't it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think your analogy went bunk somewhere. Let's say someone gave you a sculpture for free (just like god gave us NS), and then you put hack saw to it (modded the maps) and put it on your front lawn (ala the server) for the world to see, it would be right and dandy.
It's been a while since I've taken legal classes but from what I remember the first half of Talesin's original post is correct, it would be improper for someone to strip out map entities and then call it their *own* creation, but I don't believe you could call someone up on infringing your copy rights unless they declare the new map to be theirs. If I take this Wendy's burger wrapper lying on my desk and use this green marker I also have here to change the copyrighted emblem I'm not infringing any copy right because I'm not going around insisting it's my own work. The server admins aren't saying, "This is our new map," and thus to my knowledge aren't stepping on your copy rights.
PS: Make veil green, orange hurts my eyes.
Edit: not saying I agree with modifying maps, but I don't think any court in the land would take this one seriously. If you don't like how a server is just play elsewhere.
Regardless. If a server is unable to deal with the vanilla maps (which any number of servers are able to cope with), they are free to remove the ones which kill the server. They are NOT free to cut down a map to fit into their system specifications.
Here, all we have is this steamer trunk, so we'll hack off your legs and arms, then ship you third-class freight, mmkay? I mean, that's perfectly fine, isn't it? You get where you're going, don't you?
Just because it's free doesn't mean you're not stomping all over someone's hard work. Sure, server operators put a lot into their servers - and I do respect that. But I don't go around trying to change what they've worked so hard to establish. [/QUOTE]
Going to be brash like Talesin <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>It is not <i>YOURS</i>. No one <i>GAVE</i> you NS! You simply have the right to download and run the program, not rip the statue out of the lawn, haul it home, and THEN mangle it, and then tell the cops 'I'm allowed to because it was in public, so therefore I can own it'.</b>
Geesh only people that have graduated 11th grade should be responding to this...
It isn't locked because it has a purpose... and I don't think it's against forum rules to be just an idiot concerning copyright law.
PS: Make veil green, orange hurts my eyes.
Edit: not saying I agree with modifying maps, but I don't think any court in the land would take this one seriously. If you don't like how a server is just play elsewhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is that the map is representative of the original creators work. By changing it you are misrepresenting the standard of the original author's work. This is damaging to their professional reputation and thus grounds for bringing successful litigation.
Oh and if you charge for usage of your server (i.e. Clan hosting, advertising, etc.) in the US, KFS or another mapper can happily turn you in to the US attorney's office, since infringing copyright in order to make profit (which is what you are doing in these cases) is a <b>criminal offence</b>, not a civil one.
It boils down to one simple thing:
Modifying other people's copyrighted work, without express permission from the author, infringes their copyright.
<b>Modifying maps without the express permission of Charles Cleveland, is grounds for litigation. That's where the law stands.</b>
That's the law. Opinions here are kind of irrelevant, since the law is very clear. For those of you who actually care to read up on it, go check out:
<a href='http://www.copyright.gov/' target='_blank'>Copyright Law.</a>
that isnt intentions....
and it IS ok, it just doesnt happen. There was a rock climber who's arm got stuck between 2 rocks and he was forced to cut it off to survive. is THAT ok? If i needed to get somewhere that badly, damn straight i'd do it.
if they can rip the map and make it better, they should. that is how GODLIKE things are created. ever use linux? yeah that FREE, OPEN-SOUCE program? look what it has become.
I've done mapping and other building things, a huge one being Robot Arena 2. you design a robot and fight it. We (the good players) would put 10's of hours into our bots. Most of us would trade/share them so people could improve on them, and they did. Totally radical new designs emerged, and i was flattered to see a sliver of my design in some1 else's bot.
I think that if u rip a map and no one likes it because the origional is better, no one will play it. If its better, we can all learn and have fun on it. yeah it wasnt a totally origional map, but hey, ITS FUN. if you put tons of work into something (on the computer) and isome1 'destroys' it, its not that bad...you have unlimited copies of it
i personally wouldnt play on a server with modified maps, ONLY because i think the origionals KICK **** as they are.
So the admins take it upon themselves to do our job, which is a flat-out slap in the face, effectively saying, "look, you suck. This is all wrong. I know way better than you, and rather than bring up my concern in a normal fashion, I'm going to hack your map to my own specifications." Thanks a lot, I'm glad I spend my time creating content for you to enjoy so you can **** on it later.
Again, I bring up the point I brought up in another discussion before - This is a setting in which we, the creators of the NS content, <i>actually listen</i> to you! Your opinion will be heard - not necessarily agreed with, but heard. So why do you feel the need to completely bypass that and take matters into your own hands?
I haven't even gotten on to the points on why hacked maps are even worse due to the confusion they can spread into a player base, particularly new players who then have no idea what's going on when suddenly they walk around Eclipse and there isn't a hive in the marine spawn anymore...
For anyone who wasn't around when the Op4 community when the last patch came out, here's a little story. Gearbox spent a lot of time developing new game mechanics for the patch, including a new control point mode. A number of maps were released to be cp_ compatible. The Gearbox guys were hoping that things would go well but were wanting to make sure the gameplay type went over well before doing too much with it and a couple other options available through the new entities and whatnot. Shortly after release, a few people in the Op4 community decided that they didn't like this CP gameplay type, and that it was a cheap attempt by Gearbox to try and make the Op4DM community feel loved while only really caring about Op4CTF (which is a whole other soap opera in itself). So they went through, ripped the maps, and made their own variations and started running them on servers. Now half the servers ran the originals and half ran the hacked versions. Suddenly Gearbox found themselves trying to polish a new game mode where players weren't necessarily playing it their way - making improvement nigh on impossible. Needless to say, Gearbox strongly put their foot down on the matter. And, of course, those responsible defended it as their right, since they knew far better how to make Gearbox's game and how they owned the rights to do whatever they wanted to with Gearbox's content. Oh, it was lovely. And by lovely I mean ugly. Let's try to avoid that, shall we?
So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.
Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.
I can see it now:
"Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map."
The server plugin that you mentioned was created as a necessity to the evil, known solely as server load. If what you say is true, that mappers were **** at the server ops for doing such a thing. Something as simple as allowing there clientel to play NS. To play in a growing community that was having a performance problem on there servers. Then that is there right as the mapper. However from a growth standpoint, isn't it bad form for mappers to sit there and say:
"I know you can't play my map due to server performance, however I am not going to do anything about it, and you better not either."
So in those instances what do you do, do you just not play a good map, or do you take matters into your own hands. What is the best action to take, if no one is doing anything about it, then what?
Of course this was taken care of and the reason to strip entities out of maps is pretty much gone....
I'm just going to happily point out that it was his OWN arm, not someone elses he cut off while they were unaware, and if it were another rock climbers arm he had to cut off, if they consented, it's all fair and just.
This thread should be moved to 'discussions' under the topic "Isn't America's education system great?"
I think I would rather die right there then have to cut "it" off.
I would just take a big rock and bash my own brain in!
that would be better than having "it" crushed under a rock... eueueue
So does this mean that I have to contact every mapper and ask if I can use it on my server? I am using there map, and I am using it the way they intended, but according to you, every admin would have to contact every mapper and ask for explicit permission to use said map.
Yes I understand copyright, however with them giving permission for the NS developers to use there maps in there mod, then they are giving server operators the right to run the maps included in the mod.
I can see it now:
"Here you go NS team you can use this map, but I want to be able to tell certain server operators that they can't use my map. So please before distributing it, make sure that I have full rights to say who can and can't download the map." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, your first point is just silly. That's like saying you can use a McDonalds toy, but not the screws that were used to build it.
Secondly, you CAN tell them who you want playing your map. Will they say: "okay, we'll do that"? No, they'll throw you and your map out on your ****, but you DO have the right.