The whole idea of no homosexual activity and monogamy was created to combat the rising rates of Venerial disease. If you look at all of the things in Christianity that have to do with sex and fidelity, they can all be attributed to helping reduce the VD infection rates. I won't delve into this any more deeply, since these rules were not followed anyway.
I hardly think that "God" wrote the Bible, I think that people took stories of old times and made them relevant to their own time. They also exaggerated some of the tales greatly, or put them into a "mythological" (forgive me for using that word - but it fits) themes, to make people fear, believe, or heed their messages more heavily.
<!--QuoteBegin--Onuma+Feb 17 2003, 07:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Onuma @ Feb 17 2003, 07:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I hardly think that "God" wrote the Bible, I think that people took stories of old times and made them relevant to their own time. They also exaggerated some of the tales greatly, or put them into a "mythological" (forgive me for using that word - but it fits) themes, to make people fear, believe, or heed their messages more heavily. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Bah, please don't miss my point....
anyhow,
The bible was supposable "Divinely inspired." even during its translations. Many people take this to mean that it is God's words from the source. It says this in the bible somewhere. Leg will gladly oblige and quote it too, I'm sure.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
ok, time for my $0.02 on this topic.
I'm an atheist, for me there is no god.
I believe that religion is something that should be given to people that cannot cope with reality and are more than willing to be subservient for the rest of their lives. It should be given to children for a while and then taken away, just like diapers.
I see so much potential in life wasted by people that aren't in a rush to get on with life because they believe they have all of eternity. The stone cold truth of the matter is that one day each person on this earth will die. And death will be the end of it.
You may ask yourself how I couldn't believe in creation. Normally I would throw the "no proof" argument into the mix, but that usually just gets slaughtered like a lamb in the forest (and with good reason). I don't pretend to believe that science has all the answers, people are fallible. But if god created man, what created god ? I guess you could call it believing in the same religion that god himself does.
Going back to the diaper reference. I believe that religion is something that society cannot function without. I do not wish to see it abolished from the planet. Religion does instill good values in people no matter how you slice it. Nobody can argue with that. But also going back to wasted life. People tend to cling to religion like a favorite teddy bear. The teddy bear doesn't do anything or say anything because it doesn't have to do or say anything. All the teddy bear has to do is be warm and fuzzy and always be there guarding you from the monsters (death being the end).
ok, so I may not have the best writing skills out there. I think I've made my point, but here it is in bullet point just in case. -Religion is necessary for civil society -Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives -For those that choose to not throw away religion, I'm more than happy to see you solving the world's problems so that I may reap the benifits of someone else's work -Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy. -Life is weird, no two ways about it, just get something done while you're here
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
I would like to add that I do in fact believe in Karma.
I believe that doing good unto others will eventually lead to good things happening to you. But I don't expect anyone else to believe in that. I wouldn't if I didn't experience it's benefits every day.
How could it be as simple as "this is all there is to it."
Afer all the psychedelics I have done I can only say that there HAS to be something more to it. My gut won't let me deny it.
I firmly beleive:
"The truth is stranger than we CAN suppose." -Terence Mckenna
Not to mention all the debates that are being started recently in the science community about how this world is only a holograph and stuff like that along with new studies on psycchedelics and things of that nature. Plus, the reality of psychic abilities which our government confrms are real and uses to their benefits. I think science is getting to the point where we CAN prove that there is more to it.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
I think of death much like I think of dreamless sleep.
For the purposes of this reply, assume that when I say sleep that I mean to say sleep where I am not dreaming or do not remember my dream.
I am awake during the day. I exist, I think, I do, I eat, I excrete. Yet I know that sleep is coming. I don't give up on getting anything done just because sleep is coming because it is a long way off. But at the end of the day I sleep. It comes onto me and there is nothing I can do except prolong it. While I sleep I have no awareness of being asleep. If I were to have my body hidden away somewhere (let's say 6 feet underground for example) then I would not know that I was hidden. I would not care, because I cannot think, I cannot do, I cannot eat, therefore I do not exhibit any part of existance. This is what it is to be dead, to do nothing and not know you do nothing.
Here's a quote from, Onuma "" hardly think that "God" wrote the Bible, I think that people took stories of old times and made them relevant to their own time. They also exaggerated some of the tales greatly, or put them into a "mythological" (forgive me for using that word - but it fits) themes, to make people fear, believe, or heed their messages more heavily."" <span style='color:blue'> </span>
God chose people to write his words into a book for people to read. Did not god choose Moses to give people his 10 commandments?
Quote from, [WHO]Them: """But if god created man, what created god?"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
If you even read my last post, I explained it cause someone else asked about it. God is the Alpha and the Omega, which means The beggining and the end. We are not even close enough to being as smart as the lord or even satan. We will never figure something out like that EVER, untill you meet your father and ask him yourself or he's tell us.
Another quote from him """-Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
You think you should throw away god/lord/father or just plain religion away when a person gets good moral grounding on their lives? Millions of people have very good moral grounding in their life and still follow the lord. You know why? Cause they help themselves and they believe and love the lord, so the lord provides for them.
Another: """Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy.""" <span style='color:blue'> </span>
Your flesh body is dead, and your soul goes back to heaven where it came from. So there is no end. And even if there was no religion, lord or anything in this world. How the hell do you know there's a end? You have not died... And so you do not know...
I think anyone that does not believe and says there's no proof should start reading it the right way with a strongs concordance and study study study.. You'll find out that God and everything in that bible is true. I posted in my last post why so many people don't believe in the lord. They think the bible is all made up and there's no proof. Read my last post. I put a good piece of proof in there. And think to yourself... The bible has been around for ages, and yet this in the bible and it happened in 1948... There's many other things also.
But believe what you guys wanna believe....
But I better take a break, cause i'll end up saying things I don't wanna say about people.
Dez: Just because we don't agree with something, doesn't mean it's wrong automatically. The truth is hard! IF you're given a detention, it may be right, it may be justified, but you're not going to like it because you're being disciplined. The word of God is not relative to each individual person. Appicable to the lives of all? Yes, of course. However, does it change and conform to the individual pet peeves and nit-pickyness of each person's morals? That's why it's so special, so holy (set apart, is the actual translation.), because it is greater then us. It makes us angry, sure, but just because we are offended doesn't mean that the divine being who wrote it is wrong. He's greater then us after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, take this into consideration. If GOD is an omnipotent being, and I don't think he/she/it/ is, what if GOD knew how clumsy language is, and how different people interpreted things in different ways, and knew that the constant translation of religous scriptures would eventual erode their pure meaning. So, GOD, throughout history, produces many different religions that all have pretty much one main teaching so that people who are really seeking the truth will look at all the different scriptures from all around the world and see this one universal truth, in its pure form, and that the only way to understand it is to look at the picture as a whole and not just from one direction, not just one part. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously havent looked very hard at all these religions, have you?
Islam: Stresses salvation by works, followed by a paradise of earthly pleasures forever for those who follow the pillars of faith.
Judaism: Stresses salvation by law, followed by fellowship with God for eternity for all believers.
Christianity: Stresses salvation by faith, and faith alone, followd by fellowship with God for those who have been forgiven.
Buddhism: If you follow the eightfold path, you become nothing, after escaping re-incarnation.
Hinduism: Depending on how you live one life, you get re-incarnated, and evenutally, after living good enough, become nothing.
They all contradict each other. Thus, they cannot all be right! In fact, if memory serves, Islam claims to be inspired by an angel, through a man; Budhism claims to be teh result of Siddharta Buddha thinking of something cool to live your life around, and I'm pretty sure that Hinduism claims to know what Gods there are, but picks and chooses it's prophets, and never actually claims to be directly inspired by God, or Gods.
Judaism and Christianity are the only ones out of the two that actually claim that God directly inspired them. And lo! They are in the same holy book! Sure, the new testament's conditions for salvation are radically different then the OT's, because of the advent of a definate messiah we can look to for salvation. Judaism had the promise of a savior, and they had the law. And the law is covered in the NT:
<span style='color:white'>Romans 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see so much potential in life wasted by people that aren't in a rush to get on with life because they believe they have all of eternity. The stone cold truth of the matter is that one day each person on this earth will die. And death will be the end of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's sad, especially because Christ himself tells us to make something of our lives. From memory, Matthew 28:19-20
<span style='color:red'> 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20 And teaching them all that I have commanded you. And surely, I will be with you always, until the end of the age. </span>
Religion is a diaper, eh? Hmm, not a new idea:
<!--QuoteBegin--Karl Marx+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Karl Marx)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Religion is the opiate of the people. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-For those that choose to not throw away religion, I'm more than happy to see you solving the world's problems so that I may reap the benifits of someone else's work<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will do my best. Not for your thanks, but because of a love and thankfulness towards Christ. I'd like to think that I respect everyone that takes a stance on this issue, I simply cannot adhere to that in your case. You call the guidestone to my life a diaper and you call my efforts and aspirations useless.
Thanks, on the other hand, for letting me remember just how fallen the world really is.
As i've said before, i'm Pagan, but I like to dabble a tiny bit in each religion because when you take them apart from each other and look at them, they all <i>make sense</i>. So what if the "written" word is fallible? Nothing in this existence can be perfect, not even an omnipotent being. If the world was created perfect then it would be boring.
Religion, for some people, becomes their shield throughout their lives, letting them defend themselves against the dire beasts that humanity has unleashed. It's good to know that some people still have an incredible amount of faith in the face of all the stuff that's happend. Just because I don't believe in their particuliar religion doesn't mean I can't be amazed by their faith.
So what if Legion and Smurf are so strong in their beliefs? More power to them. I hope one day I might find something to put my trust in and not have to worry about when I die. Until then, I like my Soul Unification Theory (sort of ripped from the Ender series). when your milliseconds away from dying, it's been said that your entire life flashes before your eyes. I'd like to think that it doesn't flash but instead time slows down so that one millisecond equals a lifetime. Your trapped there, watching your entire life over and over and over and over until finally your mind is utterly wrapped in thought and you've been able to figure out your True Love. Then , like a curtain after the show, your eyes close and your Soul/Aiua ascends your corporeal form. It doesn't exactly go to heaven, but rather it finds the Soul/Aiua of your true love and they fuse. You and your beloved's souls become one, and you get to live her/his life and see his/her's life at the end and then, with both Soul/Aiua's wrapped in love and warmth, you both Ascend finally to End of time, commonly called Heaven. Once there, you know nothing of the corporeal world except the warmth and comfort of each other's love and each day comes anew with no end and you can spend it however you want, and you never argue or disagree because you have all the time in the world to do that later.
At least that's how i want it to be. That way suicide's aren't really the end, but moving onto a new beginning. That way I can be with my beloved till the End of Existence.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Porno Smurf+Feb 17 2003, 03:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Porno Smurf @ Feb 17 2003, 03:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Quote from, [WHO]Them: """But if god created man, what created god?"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
If you even read my last post, I explained it cause someone else asked about it. God is the Alpha and the Omega, which means The beggining and the end. We are not even close enough to being as smart as the lord or even satan. We will never figure something out like that EVER, untill you meet your father and ask him yourself or he's tell us.
Another quote from him """-Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
You think you should throw away god/lord/father or just plain religion away when a person gets good moral grounding on their lives? Millions of people have very good moral grounding in their life and still follow the lord. You know why? Cause they help themselves and they believe and love the lord, so the lord provides for them.
Another: """Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy.""" <span style='color:blue'> </span>
Your flesh body is dead, and your soul goes back to heaven where it came from. So there is no end. And even if there was no religion, lord or anything in this world. How the hell do you know there's a end? You have not died... And so you do not know... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's kinda like a blind person in a room full of blind people telling everyone that he can see.
Really he's just hallucinating because he wants to see so badly.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 17 2003, 11:02 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 17 2003, 11:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's bound to happen. What with the world full of go-tards and re-re's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or when you think something's wrong because people don't like it.
REligion is bad, I hate religion. You can worship GOD if you want to, but you don't need a church. You can do it whenever and wherever you want to. Religion ruins the world, it starts wars, tears familys apart, and causes more deaths than lives it tries to save. I believe that there is a God, he is everywhere, and that he would rahter have all of us being nice to each other than arguing over who is right.
Also, I have a question (I don't know if anybodyy else asked it, I just skimmed the thread), can god make a rock so large that not even he could lift it? This has nothing to do with my above statement, I just want to see an answer for it.
Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself couldn't eat it?
More seriously, god is omnipitant and all powerful right? So he would be able to create anything. Which would mean he could create a being more powerful than himself. But then he wouldn't be god anymore, because he wouldn't be all-powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Feb 20 2003, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 20 2003, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself couldn't eat it? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Simpsons rule!
Technically, if his power is infinite, he could create something of infinite size, and yet still be bigger then it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can worship GOD if you want to, but you don't need a church. You can do it whenever and wherever you want to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't dispute this, but if you really want to learn about religion, and experience it working firsthand, then hooking up with a bunch of like-minded religious people can really help to pick you up when you fall, and to get a solid backing and place to ask questions to those who've been there before you.
If God had wanted to make us all self-sufficient little zealots, he wouldn't have given commands like:
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion ruins the world, it starts wars, tears familys apart, and causes more deaths than lives it tries to save<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fools defying the commands in the Bible start wars. Unforgiving parents tear families apart.
As for the death's, I was miserable before I accepted Christ, and was brought into fellowship with people around me. As far as I'm concerned, Religion saved my life.
But back to the main point, something isn't bad if it's missused, misquoted, and used for something bad. Medical research saves a lot of lives, but with the knowledge gained, it can also be used to produce deadly nerve gas. Does that mean that all doctors should be shunned, and told to practice medicine in private, and not share that gifting with anyone else?
Man I so wanted to post in this thread, but I just wrote a 6 page paper on this topic and I'm soo damn saturated that I dont think I can articulate my Ideas to well this week. Ill try to post in here monday.
<!--QuoteBegin--Burr+Feb 20 2003, 01:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Burr @ Feb 20 2003, 01:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> REligion is bad, I hate religion. You can worship GOD if you want to, but you don't need a church. You can do it whenever and wherever you want to. Religion ruins the world, it starts wars, tears familys apart, and causes more deaths than lives it tries to save. I believe that there is a God, he is everywhere, and that he would rahter have all of us being nice to each other than arguing over who is right.
Also, I have a question (I don't know if anybodyy else asked it, I just skimmed the thread), can god make a rock so large that not even he could lift it? This has nothing to do with my above statement, I just want to see an answer for it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> More people have died because you see "God" differently than they do.
That is undeniable and unarguable. It is a brutal fact of human nature.
Do not say religion is bad though - <i>organized</i> religion is sometimes the scourge of a society - notice I say sometimes - but religion is merely what one believes in.
Sex, money, power - all three can be a religion unto themselves. Think about that.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Onuma+Feb 20 2003, 09:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Onuma @ Feb 20 2003, 09:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sex, money, power - all three can be a religion unto themselves. Think about that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now I'm an athiest 4 ways!
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Feb 20 2003, 10:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 20 2003, 10:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> More seriously, god is omnipitant and all powerful right? So he would be able to create anything. Which would mean he could create a being more powerful than himself. But then he wouldn't be god anymore, because he wouldn't be all-powerful. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If he is all powerful, then the most powerful thing he could create would be equal to himself.
You can't be all-and-a-half powerfull, can you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Onuma+Feb 20 2003, 09:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Onuma @ Feb 20 2003, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can't be all-and-a-half powerfull, can you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you could if you truly were ALL powerfull.
lol - but if you made yourself all-and-a-half powerful, then you'd still be all powerful because "all" just increased by a half <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
it's like the <i>woo woo</i> you know? it's da flow <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I used to be relatively open minded about religeon; it didn't bother me, and i didnt bother it. I kept my atheism to myself, because i knew people around me thought diffrently. I do this because i do not want to hurt ehir pride, or feelings. it is simply the safer, smarter thing to do.
The point is, i was relativly uncaring about the whole subject. until it jumped into my life and ruined my christmas-the 3rd year in a row that i have had a bad christmas. that only compounded matters.
the problem? 1 idea: conversion
religeon doesn't bother me. sure, i think most of them are idiots for their rigid beliefs, but it really can't be helped, as most kids are brainwashed into believing their parents religeon from the day their born. I can deal with that, as long as don't try to convert me.
here is where conversion jumped in: this christmas, i had the wonderful chance of hosting a foreign exchange student at my home, a great experience. only one slight problem happened; my teacher (who i am friends with) invited them out for the "midnight mass" every christmas time. the first time she asked, they balked. they politly said no. from then on, it was hell. every chance she got, my teacher would glorify the mass, telling how wonderful and great it was, go into glorious detail about the incredible fun and glory of this sacred meeting. 4 days later, they had no choice but to accept. I only wish i had stepped in and said no, but again, i was thinking of the "other persons" feelings, and did not wish to hurt my teachers feelings.
that was my mistake. the midnight mass came at the most inappropriate time. i wont go into detail, but i will say that i STILL havn't gotten over it, so great was its impact.
conversion is the bane of the world. why is it we take it upon ourselves to smash other peoples culture, tear down their life, and impose our own upon it? why must the ignorant church goers take up "the white mans burden" at every oppurtunity?
THAT is, as i feel it, the ultimate reason why religeon is bad. 1 word: conversion.
So far as i've seen (not to tread on Chrisianity or anything Legionnaired) Buddhism is the only religion that doesn't actively go out and try to convert. When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist congregation going out and singing Christmas Carols?
I know how religion can go. We follow our parents beliefs from the time we are young. That is not 100% correct, otherwise we'd still be pagans dancing under the maypole. Our parents raise us to see the world as they would, but we are in(duh)vidual humans who view the world with different eyes as we grow. Christianity made sense to people so they follow it. I have no issues with Christians, hell, I even have a Mormon (I hope he is) fellow who brings me different booklets every once and a while. I read them, some of what the booklet says make sense. Who would want to think that this miserable pathetic excuse of an existence is all we have to look forward to?
Yes, I was talking about <u>organized</u> religion in my last post, that is what makes me mad.
My girlfriends mom is very relgious, too much to the point she makes me mad sometimes. She always talks about how other peoples religions are wrong and stuff like that. I thought religion was supposed to be caring and forgetful, but I see alot of people fighting becasue they choose the "wrong" way to worship.
I grew up in a strange house, my parents werent really big on religon, never went to church on sundays, but they still beleived, just never talked about it. I would eventually turn to atheism in my later life, and then all my friends called me a devil worshipper or something like that. Eventually I came back but to the form I am today, yes to god, no to organized religion. Whats really funny, most of my friends who did go to to church all the time turned out to be the ones who started drinking when they were like 16, are the ones who smoke pot, and are all around mean people. Me, on the otherhand, never wnet to church, and was the one who never smoked pot, was nice to everybody, and didn't really start drinking until I was 18, but even then it was only like one or two drinks a month. (im allowed to now though, Im 21!!)
So, why is it that all of these ppl who went to church on a regular basis, seem to have a lower moral fiber than good old me who at this point in life, was an atheist?
Reading this long thread has intrigued me to write about my thoughts, so here I am writing with inferior skill, unlike Legionaired...ha...
This thread intimidates me in that 1) All of you are purty damn smart. 2) Ill get the living daylights flamed out of me. 3) It's wierd talking about this stuff.
Wow, it is pretty amazing to scan and read all the various comments that have been made pertaining to religion. I would like to add to this somewhat mature debate and say something that could be arrogant, thoughtful, or informative, so please be kind. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Life is a mystery people, Life is precious, and we have one chance to do something with our lives, so make it count.
I am a Christian, but the sad thing is: I talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
I believe there are many religions in this world, because everyone on this planet is at a different spiritual level of learning. One very important thing that differentiates Christianity from other religions is GRACE and FORGIVENESS. This world revolves around ungrace, for example: Religions like hinduism teach reincarnation, a seemingly infinite process, where you are born to suffer, die, and born to suffer again and again. If you fail in one life you have to make it up for the next, where is the grace in that? If someone fails to makes the deadline for an important work project is he shown grace? most likely not. Every religion I know besides Christianity does not teach Grace and Forgiveness the way Jesus has done. One individual changed the way we view the world today and his name is Jesus Christ, the son of God. His name has become so familiar that we use it in common speech, people often say "Jesssus Christ!" "Holy Jesus@!@!#!" or "Mother of Jesus," now insert between the quotation marks, "Albert Einstein!" "Muhammed!" "Mother of Budha!" purty wierd and irrelevant huh?
Jesus is the single most important religious figure in history and his teachings he left behind have shaped our world and the way we view it, even the whole dating system is based on the AD-After Death and BC-Before Christ system. I could go on and on about how Jesus has influenced this world, but what I am trying to say is that no single or group of individuals over a discrete period of years could have wrote about Jesus and the bible with that much intelligence, accuracy, and divine attitude and to have expected it to become this great religion that we view today. This single person, the son of God, must have mustered something of gigantic proportions of great divine power back to have made Christianity as big and infleuntial as it is today. It just shows how radical, infleuntial, and remarkable his teachings were to everyone back then, which eventually caused him to be conspired upon and put to death.
Christianity is not perfect, no religion or person is perfect, we make mistakes here and there, just cause some priest raped children and just cause the Spanish conquisitors forced SA natives to convert DOES not mean that Jesus taught them to. God is merciful, even in the Old testament God showed so much mercy. Whenever Moses asked God for forgiveness for things the Israelites surely deserved death for, God did forgive. If you read alot of Psalms you can see how God is always mentioned as merciful and loving; God is very just and he is the same God that he was in the Old and New Test.
Science cannot explain God and not all theories are correct, a theory is just a prediction and explanation for things in the order of the universe. Science cannot explain what happens after you die and what happened before the cosmos, it does though explain most of human curiosity, just not completely. Science will answer a lot of questions, but in turn create more questions.
God does exist, lets cut to the chase people and focus on God for a moment, not religion.
I am only 15, but I do know this:
Before the Big Bang (if you believe in that scientific theory) and the cosmos, time did not exist. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions. It therefore expanded at the rate of [insert miles] per second and keeps on expanding to this day if i am correct. Well, what caused the big bang to explode and where did the matter or whatever scientific garble come from to make the packed ball that caused the big bang explosion? Everything breaks down into its elements so where then did the big bang come from? That is where God comes in, in the bible it says that God is the Alpha and the Omega so then I believe that God is the very beggining and the very end. God could have created this world as arbitrary as he wanted to, but instead he designed the universe, which can be evidented upon laws ---> logic, patterns in galaxy cluster formations, and etc.
God works in mysterious ways.....In order to experience God one has to search for him, if you have not looked for him you surely won't find him. Some people are graced with divine intervention, because of some special plan God has intended for them. Most of us however are poor ns bums on the computer (jk), who think that God doesn't give a rats **** about, but he does. How does one explain the millions of near death experiences around the world, most of them relating to God? Yes this world is a mystery and sometimes i want to shoot myself cause its sometimes so friggen not worth livin for..
FOR EXCELLENT SITES: <a href='http://www.doesgodexist.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.doesgodexist.org/</a> <------------ Excellent site and very recommended, this site has great answers for important questions for all you atheists and analogies of God and the universe, it also talks about daily issues like "why humans suffer," and even has the author's biography on how he turned to being a Christian from being a full fledged athiest. Email Mr. Clayton about anything and he will answer with a reply that will satisfy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (look for the ariticles near the bottom).
Excellent books:
What's So Amazing About Grace? Phillip Yancey -New York times bestseller, an extremely enjoyable read and can even be life changing (my youth minister recommended it, since it changed his life around). The Jesus I Never Knew -Phillip Yancey Has alot of praise and awards, gives a great viewpoint on the Jesus of history, will answer alot of questions and even questions you didn't even ask.
A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and any books by Carl Sagan.
<!--QuoteBegin--SmokeNova+Feb 21 2003, 12:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Feb 21 2003, 12:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far as i've seen Buddhism is the only religion that doesn't actively go out and try to convert. When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist congregation going out and singing Christmas Carols? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Personally, I have not seen Buddhists, Jews, Taoists, or Heathens try to convert people...Islam does not have missionaries as we know them, it would seem, but the extremists just feel that if they kill enough "gentile" folk they will start to draw masses to their religion - blame it on fear, or whatever.
Christianity is by far the heaviest religion as far as missionaries and conversion pressure goes, though. Considering it is one of the most widely followed religions in the world (I'm not sure in what order they come in, but Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the top 3), it seems they know what they're doing. It is truly amazing how quickly Islam spread though - between the mid 7th century and the mid 8th century CE (that's equivalent to "A.D." for you non-ejumacated peepul <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) Islam spread from the Mecca/Medina area in Arabia through Asia Minor, Northern Africa, and even heavily into Spain by 800 CE. That is by far the quickest spread of a single religion in history to date. Christianity took 500 years to do what Islam did in 100.
However this does not, by any means, infer that one religion is better than another - merely that it goes with the time and the place more fittingly.
On that same note - I am still meaning to learn more about Islam. Do we have any people here that have studied or practice Islam? I have not yet gotten around to reading the Koran (spell it how you will, there are many different ways), though I mean to; so I am not as versed as I would like to be. As I see it, the reason that these Islam extremists use is this: Muhammed was the last prophet - God's final message bearer. God, Allah, gave him a message (any time God gives one a task, it is always a difficult one - a burden) to show others. Judaism got a part of the message, Christianity also got a part of the message, but Muhammed and Islam got the <i>entire</i> message. So, to get on with it, the reason that these Muslim terror groups and extremists justify the killing of others is that they are ignoring God's message. They understand that Jews and Christians believe in the same God and many of the same principles, but since they are ignoring the full message of God they are therefore heretics? This is what I've concluded from my studies thus far. I'm not saying every Muslim believes in the killing of other religions - just the ways that these killers justify it is as stated. Perhaps I've gotten the message wrong, perhaps not. If others are more knowledgeable than me in this area, I'd like to hear from you! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
I hardly think that "God" wrote the Bible, I think that people took stories of old times and made them relevant to their own time. They also exaggerated some of the tales greatly, or put them into a "mythological" (forgive me for using that word - but it fits) themes, to make people fear, believe, or heed their messages more heavily.
Bah, please don't miss my point....
anyhow,
The bible was supposable "Divinely inspired." even during its translations. Many people take this to mean that it is God's words from the source. It says this in the bible somewhere. Leg will gladly oblige and quote it too, I'm sure.
I'm an atheist, for me there is no god.
I believe that religion is something that should be given to people that cannot cope with reality and are more than willing to be subservient for the rest of their lives. It should be given to children for a while and then taken away, just like diapers.
I see so much potential in life wasted by people that aren't in a rush to get on with life because they believe they have all of eternity. The stone cold truth of the matter is that one day each person on this earth will die. And death will be the end of it.
You may ask yourself how I couldn't believe in creation. Normally I would throw the "no proof" argument into the mix, but that usually just gets slaughtered like a lamb in the forest (and with good reason). I don't pretend to believe that science has all the answers, people are fallible. But if god created man, what created god ? I guess you could call it believing in the same religion that god himself does.
Going back to the diaper reference. I believe that religion is something that society cannot function without. I do not wish to see it abolished from the planet. Religion does instill good values in people no matter how you slice it. Nobody can argue with that. But also going back to wasted life. People tend to cling to religion like a favorite teddy bear. The teddy bear doesn't do anything or say anything because it doesn't have to do or say anything. All the teddy bear has to do is be warm and fuzzy and always be there guarding you from the monsters (death being the end).
ok, so I may not have the best writing skills out there. I think I've made my point, but here it is in bullet point just in case.
-Religion is necessary for civil society
-Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives
-For those that choose to not throw away religion, I'm more than happy to see you solving the world's problems so that I may reap the benifits of someone else's work
-Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy.
-Life is weird, no two ways about it, just get something done while you're here
I believe that doing good unto others will eventually lead to good things happening to you. But I don't expect anyone else to believe in that. I wouldn't if I didn't experience it's benefits every day.
Afer all the psychedelics I have done I can only say that there HAS to be something more to it. My gut won't let me deny it.
I firmly beleive:
"The truth is stranger than we CAN suppose."
-Terence Mckenna
Not to mention all the debates that are being started recently in the science community about how this world is only a holograph and stuff like that along with new studies on psycchedelics and things of that nature. Plus, the reality of psychic abilities which our government confrms are real and uses to their benefits. I think science is getting to the point where we CAN prove that there is more to it.
For the purposes of this reply, assume that when I say sleep that I mean to say sleep where I am not dreaming or do not remember my dream.
I am awake during the day. I exist, I think, I do, I eat, I excrete. Yet I know that sleep is coming. I don't give up on getting anything done just because sleep is coming because it is a long way off. But at the end of the day I sleep. It comes onto me and there is nothing I can do except prolong it. While I sleep I have no awareness of being asleep. If I were to have my body hidden away somewhere (let's say 6 feet underground for example) then I would not know that I was hidden. I would not care, because I cannot think, I cannot do, I cannot eat, therefore I do not exhibit any part of existance. This is what it is to be dead, to do nothing and not know you do nothing.
<span style='color:blue'> </span>
God chose people to write his words into a book for people to read. Did not god choose Moses to give people his 10 commandments?
Quote from, [WHO]Them: """But if god created man, what created god?"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
If you even read my last post, I explained it cause someone else asked about it. God is the Alpha and the Omega, which means The beggining and the end. We are not even close enough to being as smart as the lord or even satan. We will never figure something out like that EVER, untill you meet your father and ask him yourself or he's tell us.
Another quote from him """-Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
You think you should throw away god/lord/father or just plain religion away when a person gets good moral grounding on their lives? Millions of people have very good moral grounding in their life and still follow the lord. You know why? Cause they help themselves and they believe and love the lord, so the lord provides for them.
Another: """Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy."""
<span style='color:blue'> </span>
Your flesh body is dead, and your soul goes back to heaven where it came from. So there is no end. And even if there was no religion, lord or anything in this world. How the hell do you know there's a end? You have not died... And so you do not know...
I think anyone that does not believe and says there's no proof should start reading it the right way with a strongs concordance and study study study.. You'll find out that God and everything in that bible is true. I posted in my last post why so many people don't believe in the lord. They think the bible is all made up and there's no proof. Read my last post. I put a good piece of proof in there. And think to yourself... The bible has been around for ages, and yet this in the bible and it happened in 1948... There's many other things also.
But believe what you guys wanna believe....
But I better take a break, cause i'll end up saying things I don't wanna say about people.
Dez: Just because we don't agree with something, doesn't mean it's wrong automatically. The truth is hard! IF you're given a detention, it may be right, it may be justified, but you're not going to like it because you're being disciplined. The word of God is not relative to each individual person. Appicable to the lives of all? Yes, of course. However, does it change and conform to the individual pet peeves and nit-pickyness of each person's morals? That's why it's so special, so holy (set apart, is the actual translation.), because it is greater then us. It makes us angry, sure, but just because we are offended doesn't mean that the divine being who wrote it is wrong. He's greater then us after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, take this into consideration. If GOD is an omnipotent being, and I don't think he/she/it/ is, what if GOD knew how clumsy language is, and how different people interpreted things in different ways, and knew that the constant translation of religous scriptures would eventual erode their pure meaning. So, GOD, throughout history, produces many different religions that all have pretty much one main teaching so that people who are really seeking the truth will look at all the different scriptures from all around the world and see this one universal truth, in its pure form, and that the only way to understand it is to look at the picture as a whole and not just from one direction, not just one part.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously havent looked very hard at all these religions, have you?
Islam: Stresses salvation by works, followed by a paradise of earthly pleasures forever for those who follow the pillars of faith.
Judaism: Stresses salvation by law, followed by fellowship with God for eternity for all believers.
Christianity: Stresses salvation by faith, and faith alone, followd by fellowship with God for those who have been forgiven.
Buddhism: If you follow the eightfold path, you become nothing, after escaping re-incarnation.
Hinduism: Depending on how you live one life, you get re-incarnated, and evenutally, after living good enough, become nothing.
They all contradict each other. Thus, they cannot all be right! In fact, if memory serves, Islam claims to be inspired by an angel, through a man; Budhism claims to be teh result of Siddharta Buddha thinking of something cool to live your life around, and I'm pretty sure that Hinduism claims to know what Gods there are, but picks and chooses it's prophets, and never actually claims to be directly inspired by God, or Gods.
Judaism and Christianity are the only ones out of the two that actually claim that God directly inspired them. And lo! They are in the same holy book! Sure, the new testament's conditions for salvation are radically different then the OT's, because of the advent of a definate messiah we can look to for salvation. Judaism had the promise of a savior, and they had the law. And the law is covered in the NT:
<span style='color:white'>Romans 5:11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see so much potential in life wasted by people that aren't in a rush to get on with life because they believe they have all of eternity. The stone cold truth of the matter is that one day each person on this earth will die. And death will be the end of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's sad, especially because Christ himself tells us to make something of our lives. From memory, Matthew 28:19-20
<span style='color:red'>
19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
20 And teaching them all that I have commanded you. And surely, I will be with you always, until the end of the age.
</span>
Religion is a diaper, eh? Hmm, not a new idea:
<!--QuoteBegin--Karl Marx+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Karl Marx)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Religion is the opiate of the people.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-For those that choose to not throw away religion, I'm more than happy to see you solving the world's problems so that I may reap the benifits of someone else's work<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will do my best. Not for your thanks, but because of a love and thankfulness towards Christ. I'd like to think that I respect everyone that takes a stance on this issue, I simply cannot adhere to that in your case. You call the guidestone to my life a diaper and you call my efforts and aspirations useless.
Thanks, on the other hand, for letting me remember just how fallen the world really is.
Religion, for some people, becomes their shield throughout their lives, letting them defend themselves against the dire beasts that humanity has unleashed. It's good to know that some people still have an incredible amount of faith in the face of all the stuff that's happend. Just because I don't believe in their particuliar religion doesn't mean I can't be amazed by their faith.
So what if Legion and Smurf are so strong in their beliefs? More power to them. I hope one day I might find something to put my trust in and not have to worry about when I die. Until then, I like my Soul Unification Theory (sort of ripped from the Ender series). when your milliseconds away from dying, it's been said that your entire life flashes before your eyes. I'd like to think that it doesn't flash but instead time slows down so that one millisecond equals a lifetime. Your trapped there, watching your entire life over and over and over and over until finally your mind is utterly wrapped in thought and you've been able to figure out your True Love. Then , like a curtain after the show, your eyes close and your Soul/Aiua ascends your corporeal form. It doesn't exactly go to heaven, but rather it finds the Soul/Aiua of your true love and they fuse. You and your beloved's souls become one, and you get to live her/his life and see his/her's life at the end and then, with both Soul/Aiua's wrapped in love and warmth, you both Ascend finally to End of time, commonly called Heaven. Once there, you know nothing of the corporeal world except the warmth and comfort of each other's love and each day comes anew with no end and you can spend it however you want, and you never argue or disagree because you have all the time in the world to do that later.
At least that's how i want it to be. That way suicide's aren't really the end, but moving onto a new beginning. That way I can be with my beloved till the End of Existence.
If you even read my last post, I explained it cause someone else asked about it. God is the Alpha and the Omega, which means The beggining and the end. We are not even close enough to being as smart as the lord or even satan. We will never figure something out like that EVER, untill you meet your father and ask him yourself or he's tell us.
Another quote from him """-Religion should be thrown away once a person gets a good moral grounding so they can get on with their lives"""<span style='color:blue'> </span>
You think you should throw away god/lord/father or just plain religion away when a person gets good moral grounding on their lives? Millions of people have very good moral grounding in their life and still follow the lord. You know why? Cause they help themselves and they believe and love the lord, so the lord provides for them.
Another: """Death IS the end, no book of stories is going to fix that, not even a book on necromancy."""
<span style='color:blue'> </span>
Your flesh body is dead, and your soul goes back to heaven where it came from. So there is no end. And even if there was no religion, lord or anything in this world. How the hell do you know there's a end? You have not died... And so you do not know... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kinda like a blind person in a room full of blind people telling everyone that he can see.
Really he's just hallucinating because he wants to see so badly.
Note: it's 5:00 am and I havn't slept in 56 hours
Or when you think something's wrong because people don't like it.
Also, I have a question (I don't know if anybodyy else asked it, I just skimmed the thread), can god make a rock so large that not even he could lift it? This has nothing to do with my above statement, I just want to see an answer for it.
More seriously, god is omnipitant and all powerful right? So he would be able to create anything. Which would mean he could create a being more powerful than himself. But then he wouldn't be god anymore, because he wouldn't be all-powerful.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Simpsons rule!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can worship GOD if you want to, but you don't need a church. You can do it whenever and wherever you want to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't dispute this, but if you really want to learn about religion, and experience it working firsthand, then hooking up with a bunch of like-minded religious people can really help to pick you up when you fall, and to get a solid backing and place to ask questions to those who've been there before you.
If God had wanted to make us all self-sufficient little zealots, he wouldn't have given commands like:
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religion ruins the world, it starts wars, tears familys apart, and causes more deaths than lives it tries to save<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fools defying the commands in the Bible start wars. Unforgiving parents tear families apart.
As for the death's, I was miserable before I accepted Christ, and was brought into fellowship with people around me. As far as I'm concerned, Religion saved my life.
But back to the main point, something isn't bad if it's missused, misquoted, and used for something bad. Medical research saves a lot of lives, but with the knowledge gained, it can also be used to produce deadly nerve gas. Does that mean that all doctors should be shunned, and told to practice medicine in private, and not share that gifting with anyone else?
Also, I have a question (I don't know if anybodyy else asked it, I just skimmed the thread), can god make a rock so large that not even he could lift it? This has nothing to do with my above statement, I just want to see an answer for it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
More people have died because you see "God" differently than they do.
That is undeniable and unarguable. It is a brutal fact of human nature.
Do not say religion is bad though - <i>organized</i> religion is sometimes the scourge of a society - notice I say sometimes - but religion is merely what one believes in.
Sex, money, power - all three can be a religion unto themselves. Think about that.
Now I'm an athiest 4 ways!
If he is all powerful, then the most powerful thing he could create would be equal to himself.
You can't be all-and-a-half powerfull, can you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
you could if you truly were ALL powerfull.
it's like the <i>woo woo</i> you know? it's da flow <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The point is, i was relativly uncaring about the whole subject. until it jumped into my life and ruined my christmas-the 3rd year in a row that i have had a bad christmas. that only compounded matters.
the problem? 1 idea: conversion
religeon doesn't bother me. sure, i think most of them are idiots for their rigid beliefs, but it really can't be helped, as most kids are brainwashed into believing their parents religeon from the day their born. I can deal with that, as long as don't try to convert me.
here is where conversion jumped in: this christmas, i had the wonderful chance of hosting a foreign exchange student at my home, a great experience. only one slight problem happened; my teacher (who i am friends with) invited them out for the "midnight mass" every christmas time. the first time she asked, they balked. they politly said no. from then on, it was hell. every chance she got, my teacher would glorify the mass, telling how wonderful and great it was, go into glorious detail about the incredible fun and glory of this sacred meeting. 4 days later, they had no choice but to accept. I only wish i had stepped in and said no, but again, i was thinking of the "other persons" feelings, and did not wish to hurt my teachers feelings.
that was my mistake. the midnight mass came at the most inappropriate time. i wont go into detail, but i will say that i STILL havn't gotten over it, so great was its impact.
conversion is the bane of the world. why is it we take it upon ourselves to smash other peoples culture, tear down their life, and impose our own upon it? why must the ignorant church goers take up "the white mans burden" at every oppurtunity?
THAT is, as i feel it, the ultimate reason why religeon is bad. 1 word: conversion.
I know how religion can go. We follow our parents beliefs from the time we are young. That is not 100% correct, otherwise we'd still be pagans dancing under the maypole. Our parents raise us to see the world as they would, but we are in(duh)vidual humans who view the world with different eyes as we grow. Christianity made sense to people so they follow it. I have no issues with Christians, hell, I even have a Mormon (I hope he is) fellow who brings me different booklets every once and a while. I read them, some of what the booklet says make sense. Who would want to think that this miserable pathetic excuse of an existence is all we have to look forward to?
My girlfriends mom is very relgious, too much to the point she makes me mad sometimes. She always talks about how other peoples religions are wrong and stuff like that. I thought religion was supposed to be caring and forgetful, but I see alot of people fighting becasue they choose the "wrong" way to worship.
I grew up in a strange house, my parents werent really big on religon, never went to church on sundays, but they still beleived, just never talked about it. I would eventually turn to atheism in my later life, and then all my friends called me a devil worshipper or something like that. Eventually I came back but to the form I am today, yes to god, no to organized religion. Whats really funny, most of my friends who did go to to church all the time turned out to be the ones who started drinking when they were like 16, are the ones who smoke pot, and are all around mean people. Me, on the otherhand, never wnet to church, and was the one who never smoked pot, was nice to everybody, and didn't really start drinking until I was 18, but even then it was only like one or two drinks a month. (im allowed to now though, Im 21!!)
So, why is it that all of these ppl who went to church on a regular basis, seem to have a lower moral fiber than good old me who at this point in life, was an atheist?
this is my first post.
Reading this long thread has intrigued me to write about my thoughts, so here I am writing with inferior skill, unlike Legionaired...ha...
This thread intimidates me in that 1) All of you are purty damn smart.
2) Ill get the living daylights flamed out of me.
3) It's wierd talking about this stuff.
Wow, it is pretty amazing to scan and read all the various comments that have been made pertaining to religion. I would like to add to this somewhat mature debate and say something that could be arrogant, thoughtful, or informative, so please be kind. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Life is a mystery people, Life is precious, and we have one chance to do something with our lives, so make it count.
I am a Christian, but the sad thing is: I talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
I believe there are many religions in this world, because everyone on this planet is at a different spiritual level of learning. One very important thing that differentiates Christianity from other religions is GRACE and FORGIVENESS. This world revolves around ungrace, for example: Religions like hinduism teach reincarnation, a seemingly infinite process, where you are born to suffer, die, and born to suffer again and again. If you fail in one life you have to make it up for the next, where is the grace in that? If someone fails to makes the deadline for an important work project is he shown grace? most likely not. Every religion I know besides Christianity does not teach Grace and Forgiveness the way Jesus has done. One individual changed the way we view the world today and his name is Jesus Christ, the son of God. His name has become so familiar that we use it in common speech, people often say "Jesssus Christ!" "Holy Jesus@!@!#!" or "Mother of Jesus," now insert between the quotation marks, "Albert Einstein!" "Muhammed!" "Mother of Budha!" purty wierd and irrelevant huh?
Jesus is the single most important religious figure in history and his teachings he left behind have shaped our world and the way we view it, even the whole dating system is based on the AD-After Death and BC-Before Christ system. I could go on and on about how Jesus has influenced this world, but what I am trying to say is that no single or group of individuals over a discrete period of years could have wrote about Jesus and the bible with that much intelligence, accuracy, and divine attitude and to have expected it to become this great religion that we view today. This single person, the son of God, must have mustered something of gigantic proportions of great divine power back to have made Christianity as big and infleuntial as it is today. It just shows how radical, infleuntial, and remarkable his teachings were to everyone back then, which eventually caused him to be conspired upon and put to death.
Christianity is not perfect, no religion or person is perfect, we make mistakes here and there, just cause some priest raped children and just cause the Spanish conquisitors forced SA natives to convert DOES not mean that Jesus taught them to. God is merciful, even in the Old testament God showed so much mercy. Whenever Moses asked God for forgiveness for things the Israelites surely deserved death for, God did forgive. If you read alot of Psalms you can see how God is always mentioned as merciful and loving; God is very just and he is the same God that he was in the Old and New Test.
Science cannot explain God and not all theories are correct, a theory is just a prediction and explanation for things in the order of the universe. Science cannot explain what happens after you die and what happened before the cosmos, it does though explain most of human curiosity, just not completely. Science will answer a lot of questions, but in turn create more questions.
God does exist,
lets cut to the chase people and focus on God for a moment, not religion.
I am only 15, but I do know this:
Before the Big Bang (if you believe in that scientific theory) and the cosmos, time did not exist. According to the big bang, the universe was created sometime between 10 billion and 20 billion years ago from a cosmic explosion that hurled matter and in all directions. It therefore expanded at the rate of [insert miles] per second and keeps on expanding to this day if i am correct. Well, what caused the big bang to explode and where did the matter or whatever scientific garble come from to make the packed ball that caused the big bang explosion? Everything breaks down into its elements so where then did the big bang come from? That is where God comes in, in the bible it says that God is the Alpha and the Omega so then I believe that God is the very beggining and the very end. God could have created this world as arbitrary as he wanted to, but instead he designed the universe, which can be evidented upon laws ---> logic, patterns in galaxy cluster formations, and etc.
God works in mysterious ways.....In order to experience God one has to search for him, if you have not looked for him you surely won't find him. Some people are graced with divine intervention, because of some special plan God has intended for them. Most of us however are poor ns bums on the computer (jk), who think that God doesn't give a rats **** about, but he does. How does one explain the millions of near death experiences around the world, most of them relating to God? Yes this world is a mystery and sometimes i want to shoot myself cause its sometimes so friggen not worth livin for..
FOR EXCELLENT SITES:
<a href='http://www.doesgodexist.org/' target='_blank'>http://www.doesgodexist.org/</a> <------------ Excellent site and very recommended, this site has great answers for important questions for all you atheists and analogies of God and the universe, it also talks about daily issues like "why humans suffer," and even has the author's biography on how he turned to being a Christian from being a full fledged athiest. Email Mr. Clayton about anything and he will answer with a reply that will satisfy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (look for the ariticles near the bottom).
Excellent books:
What's So Amazing About Grace? Phillip Yancey -New York times bestseller, an extremely enjoyable read and can even be life changing (my youth minister recommended it, since it changed his life around).
The Jesus I Never Knew -Phillip Yancey Has alot of praise and awards, gives a great viewpoint on the Jesus of history, will answer alot of questions and even questions you didn't even ask.
A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and any books by Carl Sagan.
Personally, I have not seen Buddhists, Jews, Taoists, or Heathens try to convert people...Islam does not have missionaries as we know them, it would seem, but the extremists just feel that if they kill enough "gentile" folk they will start to draw masses to their religion - blame it on fear, or whatever.
Christianity is by far the heaviest religion as far as missionaries and conversion pressure goes, though. Considering it is one of the most widely followed religions in the world (I'm not sure in what order they come in, but Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the top 3), it seems they know what they're doing. It is truly amazing how quickly Islam spread though - between the mid 7th century and the mid 8th century CE (that's equivalent to "A.D." for you non-ejumacated peepul <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) Islam spread from the Mecca/Medina area in Arabia through Asia Minor, Northern Africa, and even heavily into Spain by 800 CE. That is by far the quickest spread of a single religion in history to date. Christianity took 500 years to do what Islam did in 100.
However this does not, by any means, infer that one religion is better than another - merely that it goes with the time and the place more fittingly.
On that same note - I am still meaning to learn more about Islam. Do we have any people here that have studied or practice Islam? I have not yet gotten around to reading the Koran (spell it how you will, there are many different ways), though I mean to; so I am not as versed as I would like to be. As I see it, the reason that these Islam extremists use is this:
Muhammed was the last prophet - God's final message bearer. God, Allah, gave him a message (any time God gives one a task, it is always a difficult one - a burden) to show others. Judaism got a part of the message, Christianity also got a part of the message, but Muhammed and Islam got the <i>entire</i> message. So, to get on with it, the reason that these Muslim terror groups and extremists justify the killing of others is that they are ignoring God's message. They understand that Jews and Christians believe in the same God and many of the same principles, but since they are ignoring the full message of God they are therefore heretics?
This is what I've concluded from my studies thus far. I'm not saying every Muslim believes in the killing of other religions - just the ways that these killers justify it is as stated. Perhaps I've gotten the message wrong, perhaps not. If others are more knowledgeable than me in this area, I'd like to hear from you! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->