eh, I thought I was atheist, then I found the Nordic gods. Not really gods at all, but just people who have eternal life from the golden apples (i think) of Freja.
And science has eliminated the need for mass-religion.
blah, i'm rambling now, must consume flesh.
and Occam's Razor is:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one.
<!--QuoteBegin--DOOManiac+Feb 14 2003, 06:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DOOManiac @ Feb 14 2003, 06:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It may be God (in the christian sense), it might be some other religion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahaha that made me think of south park when they were in hell and asked what the correct religion is, and hes like it was the mormons, yes the mormons, and they're all like damn! any wack on topic... doom, my views are as yours. i grew up christian and stuff and i don't often go to church... at all. i think there MIGHT be some divine presence, but i don't know. i'm more into the scientific aspect of things... [edit] and the more i think about it, the more i believe that people that were raised christian don't have as much faith as someone that finds it later in their life. [/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first thing I have to address is the belief that since bad things were carried out in the past, in the name of God, the religion itself is fubar. If you read Luke 4, I believe, where it talks about the temptation of Jesus, according to the bible, even Satan can use scripture for his own purposes. Is this a reason to not believe in something? Because it can be missused? If so, then why believe in medical science if it can be used for developing nerve gas? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be hard to tell what someone really means when they say "believe." When a lot of us say we "believe" in this/that, what we really mean is that based on the imperfect information we have, that seems like the best guess to go with. "Did you leave your sunglasses in the car?" "Yes, I believe so." A statement of belief doesn't really imply anything more than what your current battle plan is.
However, in a lot of religious contexts, "belief" means something different. It not only means what you *think* is true, it also represents what you *WANT* to be true. That makes things kind of messy, especially when you try to talk about them. Obviously it should be possible to believe that Item A is true, without necessarily preferring it. You can believe your car got stolen without being happy about it.
But a lot of times, religious people interpret what agnostics or atheists say they believe as being also what they PREFER, or wish to be. I think that is taking it too far- I, for example, lean towards believing there is no god, but I don't consider that to be anything more than an evaluation of what I know. That's not the same as saying I don't WANT there to be a god. It just says that at this point in time, I'm not convinced, and guess towards the alternative. I wouldn't feel bad about myself if I learned something later that changed my mind- I'm not advocating anything one way or the other by making educated guesses. If you are fishing on a lake, it doesn't mean you're morally corrupt because the place you believed the fish would be turned out to be empty, or vice versa. It just means you were incorrect- it doesn't mean you wanted there to be no fish, or that you should go to Hell for "turning away from the fish." (I'm not putting words in your mouth here.
That said, I "believe" in science insofar as it continues to give the most consistent forcasting for my life. I don't feel guilty when it is wrong, nor I do I think it is infallible. It just seems in practice to be the most reliable and repeatable way to get accurate results. A lot of phrases and approaches I was exposed to during my religious schooling have turned out in practice to be very unreliable and arbitrary. As a result, I don't utilize those methods in my life. That doesn't mean they always lead to bad things, or that they won't start working tomorrow. But since they haven't worked so far, it seems dishonest to pretend that they do. There are no repeatable tests to raise the dead, reveal God, etc, and plenty of repeatable tests to show how bad record keeping used to be, so it doesn't make sense to me to give these things much thought. That's not much of a value judgement. It doesn't mean I wouldn't give them more attention if they started happening all around me.
Believing something is true or not should be considered completely separate from what you prefer to be reality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's fine if you want to judge me, but don't think that I'm stupid, and that's the only reason I accepted Christ. My IQ is somewhere between 141 and 170, I have a 4.109 QPA, and a class rank of 19 of 583, I'm not thick headed by any stretch of the imagination. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't an issue of stupidity. We all take guesses and act on things we can't prove. The difference lies in whether you think a person's values can be evaluated based on what they believe to be reality. Just because I don't want my girlfriend to die in a car wreck tonight doesn't mean that I should work towards telling myself that she won't. That's an unnecessary and somewhat silly thing to do.
Obviously you're an intelligent person, because you have good writing skills. But you may as well stop using school or IQ tests as a benchmark, these are highly flawed and really only measure output in certain situations, and don't account at all for the possibility of people not wanting to participate in the benchmarking. School systems focus on skills that will produce workers for corporate environments, out of the need to ensure economic and social stability. That's shooting pretty low. I was a 1337 student until my mid-teens, but my abilities didn't really begin to flourish until I had left the structured academic environment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why, then, do I insist on clinging to a 2000 year old religion? Because my life is happyer now with it then without it. It's a purpose, it's a comfort, it's a rebuke, but more importantly, it's a better way to live your life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think religion does benefit the person who follows it. The problem is what that does to other people around them. There's plenty of studies that conclude that devoutly religious people often seem to live a long time. That doesn't necessarily make them right. Since religion can be viewed as a mental construct to ward off existential terror, the more fluffy the expectation, the less stress there is, and lower blood pressure, etc.
However, that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying this trip at other people's expense. For example, religious beliefs often cause people to try to control how other people live, whether they like it or not. In my own life, neither my parents nor my "girlfriend's" parents will take an interest in our lives together, because we're not married. Even though we've been partners for seven years, they don't want to hear about our vacations, or give us financial assistance, or otherwise recognize our combined plans and experiences, all because they're convinced we're sinning by not getting married. That's a lot of memories, laughs, bonding, etc, down the toilet on account of taking the Bible literally. So while perhaps their beliefs have benefitted them in warding off existential angst, it has severely damaged some of their important personal relationships.
On a much larger scale, we have people trying to block sex education for religious reasons, despite the dangerous consequences. Environmental issues are ignored out of the belief that the end of the world is coming soon anyway, or that God regulates the environment and intended for rampant expansion, so we don't have to worry about it.
I'm not saying you endorse any of these things. But I'd like to argue that even if a particular style of thought is pleasing or beneficial to an individual, it might be badly hurting the people around them.
I'm Catholic and celebrate some Russian Orthodox traditions and dates. I have every reason to believe and no reason not to. I go to church everyday (for personal reasons). I don't fully practice or belief all of the Catholic Church's practices and stances on issues but I still belief in the core of Catholism and Christianity. If you live a good life you will go to heaven. whether or not you belive in God and Jesus. I think God is an organism on some other plain or dimension. He/She/It might or might not be powerful in its reality but is in our's. An organism from a higher dimension would be infintesimly(sp) more powerful than us, it would be like when we draw on paper. We, in the 3rd dimension, would have God-like powers to those on the paper, 2nd dimension, if they were alive; this is how I remember being taught by a friend who has studied advanced/theroetical physics etc in college, I have not so if you have better information than I please correct me. As for other religions, I respect them, except for Islam, but I have my bias against them, but am trying to fight it, though I think I can't. And for those who don't believe, just keep an open mind.
Alright, looks like some good points have been brought up, I'll try to address them the best that I can.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It isn't an issue of stupidity. We all take guesses and act on things we can't prove. The difference lies in whether you think a person's values can be evaluated based on what they believe to be reality. Just because I don't want my girlfriend to die in a car wreck tonight doesn't mean that I should work towards telling myself that she won't. That's an unnecessary and somewhat silly thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, allow me to apologize for my spouting off my own mental statistics. The great majority of athesits I come in contact with on a regular basis assume that any sort of religion is for the weak, and that once someone has the intelectual capabilities to comprehend that something could have come about other then the whim of God, then they are a moron not to accept the fact that we are alone here. I apologize for lumping all of you guys into this catagory, but given my frame of reference, I wasn't sure what to expect.
Anyway. Surely, a person can be an athesit, while still having a moral and ethical standard that is stronger and more adherant to the biblical teaching then that of a christian. I did not mean to try to profess that just because someone does not believe in the God of the bible, then they are a horrible person. Obviously, by no means is this true.
You do draw a good point, however, that maybe we just want to feel like there's someone out there watching out for us, covering our back, and thus, in our own mind, we make that divine being true in our minds. Interesting concept. However, the point is moot, if the being that we adhere to causes us as angst or pain because of out belief in it. *Buh?*. Living and walking in the christian life style isn't always easy. I've known people who become so guilty that they haven't been able to follow laws set down in the bible, that they become distraught and depressed. I myself struggle with some areas in my life, wich would be easyer to deal with, without my faith in Christ as my personal savior. Sexual immorality, judging people, or talking to people in a way that belittles them, are all things I really did not feel guilty about before I became a Christian. Overall, yes, my life has been better off after accepting Him. But, if my religion were not real, and were actually made up for comfort, would it not make sense that those things in my life that the Bible says is wrong would somehow be able to be smoothed over, or avoided, or softened in harshness, if the faith was really something that was real to me, in my own mind, and to no-one else?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying this trip at other people's expense. For example, religious beliefs often cause people to try to control how other people live, whether they like it or not. In my own life, neither my parents nor my "girlfriend's" parents will take an interest in our lives together, because we're not married. Even though we've been partners for seven years, they don't want to hear about our vacations, or give us financial assistance, or otherwise recognize our combined plans and experiences, all because they're convinced we're sinning by not getting married. That's a lot of memories, laughs, bonding, etc, down the toilet on account of taking the Bible literally. So while perhaps their beliefs have benefitted them in warding off existential angst, it has severely damaged some of their important personal relationships. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.</span>
This, being the a significant bedrock of Christian teaching, that we are justified by our faith in Christ, is also the reason why my sins are just as black as yours. It doesn't matter if I've only stolen a few bucks, or killed a man, both are equally condemning. I sympathize with you here, I really do. I wish you and your girlfriend happiness in the future, and I'm sorry that your parents are being so un-loving to you. Although, perhaps, what you do is wrong, It's pretty clear in the NT that judgement is for God, and he alone.
<span style='color:Red'>Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?</span>
Love everyone, practice hospitality, and share, even with those who hate you. I think the "Turn the other cheek" verse was in the same sermon. Although, personally, I don't approve of your sex before marriage, (never directly stated, but I think it was implied) it is my place to talk with you, about it, and encourage you to live your life in a way that is righteous and fulfilling, not to heap wrath onto your head because of the things you do. Woudn't that be the pot calling the kettle black.
God is a relational God. Time and time again, through the Bible, we see that more often than not, the miracles performed are those of person to person, and of compassion and love. Surely, the memorable ones are things like, say, the swarm of locusts, but far more often are relationships the tools for the holy spirit to work through. If we were self-sustaining people of faith, or if Christ decended from the sky whenever we needed guidance, then what use would there be for going to church on sunday, or talking to other believers about the in's and out's of their walk with God? Destroying a healthy, loving relationship is a horrible thing. Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is?
I'll be praying for you, and your family, that maybe they'll be able to be more supporting in the future. Not of the sin, but of the love between two people, and the love OF two people. Hate the sin, love the person.
Wow that's a lot. I'm going to go frag something, I'll be back later to answer the new, obligatory round of objections.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 14 2003, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 14 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How many times have I said that? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have only heard one other person say that in my life, and it was not here...so I'll leave you to keep your count <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
--
And to Legion on his Matthew 5:38-47 verse...that's great in an idealistic world, but to <i>me</i>; I would value realism over it. It's perfectly well to be kind, share, and sacrifice your things for others. There is a certain level of "restriction" as I'll call it, however. One has to earn a level of respect on an individual basis,
As I like to say: "I'm not prejudiced, everyone has an equal opportunity to be hated by me." (that <b>IS</b> in jest FYI) - though I truly hate no one. I am indifferent to some people, but I hate none. But the same goes for the reverse. I will be nice, humorous, and/or kind to a new person I meet, I can get along with anybody, as long as they don't give me hell. I will treat them like they are my friend (if the situation is right for it - you wouldn't wanna treat your Drill Sergeant as a friend upon meeting them for the first time in BCT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). If they show me some niceness in return, and are not dirtbags about it, they continue to earn my respect. Once they cross the line though, that level of respect diminishes greatly; they step too far and they lose it altogether and indefinitely. Also, there is a difference (as I see it anyway) between the love of all things, and the love between two individuals, be it spousal or familiar. Love is, nowadays, a pretty generic term...and is thrown around too easily. Perhaps the real meaning of the word is long-lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to flame - but if your parents are not Christian, and have not raised you in a Christian fashion, they cannot show you the love of Christ. To me this statement came across as if you were trying to push your religion onto us...that's one thing that really sucks about the internet. You cannot see the real meaning behind the words, and each phrase can be taken in innumerable ways. To use the old cliche "<i>A picture is worth a thousand words</i>," is so fitting. So please if we're taking a message the way you did not intend for us to take it - interpret more specifically. I will do so, if you ask. I'm sure many people take me the wrong way here just from the responses I get.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 15 2003, 02:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2003, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Living and walking in the christian life style isn't always easy. I've known people who become so guilty that they haven't been able to follow laws set down in the bible, that they become distraught and depressed. I myself struggle with some areas in my life, wich would be easyer to deal with, without my faith in Christ as my personal savior.
.....
Love everyone, practice hospitality, and share, even with those who hate you. I think the "Turn the other cheek" verse was in the same sermon.
.......
God is a relational God. Time and time again, through the Bible, we see that more often than not, the miracles performed are those of person to person, and of compassion and love. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, I beleive in a higher power but not a higher being.
On that note, it is very hard living my life in a constant state of aloneness. I don't beleive anyone is watching over me and making sure I am taken care of. This is hard to swallow. So I would have to disagree and say that at least you have faith to fall back on, I only have myself, but become strong becuase I struggle.
"The weak needs an armor of faith while the strong walk naked before us all." -not sure of author
......
"If a man strikes you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other! Smite him limb from limb for self-preservation is the highest law." -Anton LaVey
"let people stomp on you" What have you gained by encouraging parasites?
......
"Hate only those who are deserving of it."
How can one fully understand love without experiencing hate?
......
God also performed miracles such as killing infants and animals, spreading blight, and giving his followers the power to slaughter whole peoples.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 14 2003, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 14 2003, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why, then, do I insist on clinging to a 2000 year old religion? Because my life is happyer now with it then without it. It's a purpose, it's a comfort, it's a rebuke, but more importantly, it's a better way to live your life. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is something that I definately do envy of people with a strong faith.
I have a coworker at work who is perhaps the best Christian I know. She isn't a nut, she doesn't persecute others, she gives her time to needy, etc. The ideal Christian pretty much.
Its amazing just to see her talk about things and to realize just how much her faith means to her. It keeps her happy and always gives her a sense of purpose. Even tough times like when her mother passed on were eased so much by her faith. Whats even more is the genuinely feels the touch of God in her everyday affairs, and its just normal.
So, yeah, I do kinda envy that sense of peacefullness and security one can get. But alas that's just not for me...
Yeah DOOM, much respect to those who believe so strongly when there are so many naysayers around. I don't support a single religion, but I definitely don't try to deter people from following their faith. The only real problem I have with religion and religious people is when they try to force their beliefs onto others; "convert" them...that's not cool in my book.
I do have great respect for people who follow their faith so strongly, especially in the face of science which (personally) I see to offer a better explaination of the world.
Now if want to get into Christianity, which god are Christian's supposed to follow? In the Old Testemant (Hebrew Bible), God is venguful and smites his foes. For Flayra's sake he drowns the entire world! Then the New Testement suddenly does a 180 and says "Love and Peace". See how many Christians would be confused? Which teachings should be followed? One passage says that if a man lies with another man as he would lie with a woman then that man must be put to death" Should all Christians slaughter homosexuals?" Witchcraft and sorcery must be stamped out, "Should all Christians burn fantasy novels and Harry Potter fans?" It'a all very well to say "But we don't follow those beliefs" but if they're part of your religious teachings then how can you ignore them. If the Bible is what god wants his people to do then I certainly would fear such a god. If god does not want us to have sex before marriage, why give us sexual urges and desires? Yes, I brought up sex, that dreaded word for the devout Christian. If it truely was intended to be just for reproduction, why make it pleasurable? Evolution has the answer here: if an activity is pleasureable then a species will be more inclined to do it. A specieis that does not reproduce dies, whilst one that reproduces will have a better chance of success.
I just don't find Christianity a very viable religion. Once the Reformation occurs and through printing people can actually read the Bible they start to find all the problems and holes in it's ideas. It's a tribute to the religion that it has survived this long.
I still say Flayraism is the answer <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Feb 15 2003, 01:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Feb 15 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In the Old Testemant (Hebrew Bible), God is venguful and smites his foes. For Flayra's sake he drowns the entire world! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually a very, very common theme. Several other religions have a flood myth, or a similar "purifying" type myth.
Oh I know it's a commen theme (seems to spring from the flooding of Ur, one of the first cities), my point was more that a lot of other religions don't then try to turn this all around and say "God forgives everyone and is loving and caring". It's very hard to link the two, on the one hand you're being told that god is all mericful, then on the other you're told he will smite sinners down. Kudos to the Christians out there, I could never join these 2 ideas in my mind and was one of the reasons I abandoned my faith years ago.
<!--QuoteBegin--SmokeNova+Feb 14 2003, 07:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Feb 14 2003, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> eh, I thought I was atheist, then I found the Nordic gods. Not really gods at all, but just people who have eternal life from the golden apples (i think) of Freja.
And science has eliminated the need for mass-religion.
blah, i'm rambling now, must consume flesh.
and Occam's Razor is:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I feeled ashamed that I am 95% nordic and don't know anything about my peoples traditional religion. Anyone know where I could get some info on it?
<span style='color:white'>Matthew 9:10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." 14 Then John's disciples came and asked him, "How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" 15 Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast. 16 "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. 17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved." </span>
In the old testament, the only way that the nation of Israel was to be kept pure, and set aside long enough to multiply in numbers, so that they may one day deliver God's message to the world, was to make it a nation where sin was legally wrong.
The first five books of the bible are, the most cited in the OT for a reason. Namely, there is so much judgement in them, wether it be of the Caananites, or of a sinner. However, if and when you believe that there is a God who created you, it's not that much of a streach to believe that he has the right to do whatever he wants, (It's his universe, after all) and from there, the OT judgement is rationalized pretty easy.
All mankind has fallen short of God's glory and perfectness, according to both OT and NT teachings. Once that trust, that good standing with God is violated, then basicly, it's all over. You can't come into fellowship with God if you've fallen that far short of his perfection. That's where Christ comes in, to act as a scapegoat for all of our sins. By his own will, he made all who believe perfect. It's as if all of your transgressions are kept in a folder, and you can either hold onto it yourself, and take the heat for it, or you can let Jesus, the Son and Christ of God, take it for you. That's the basics of Christianity right there. At first glance, it's not very loving stuff, telling you you're condemned to hell for all eternity unless you believe. A lot of people say it's not fair.
Is it fair to the Son of God, that he should take all of the suffering meant for you onto Him, when He's done nothing wrong?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, there is a difference (as I see it anyway) between the love of all things, and the love between two individuals, be it spousal or familiar. Love is, nowadays, a pretty generic term...and is thrown around too easily. Perhaps the real meaning of the word is long-lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to flame - but if your parents are not Christian, and have not raised you in a Christian fashion, they cannot show you the love of Christ. To me this statement came across as if you were trying to push your religion onto us...that's one thing that really sucks about the internet. You cannot see the real meaning behind the words, and each phrase can be taken in innumerable ways. To use the old cliche "A picture is worth a thousand words," is so fitting. So please if we're taking a message the way you did not intend for us to take it - interpret more specifically. I will do so, if you ask. I'm sure many people take me the wrong way here just from the responses I get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes, when I think of being forced to diagram my own sentences, I make myself sad. Let's see if I can clarify.
I think that if everyone were a Christian, the world would be a better place, I really do, and given the opportunity, I try to share what I believe with other people, that much is true.
However, forcing relgion onto someone is no way to do something. I'm sorry if I came across as pushy, it wasn't the desired effect.
I assumed your parents were Christian by the way you described them in your post. I guess not. What I meant to say was, that it is certainly someone's place to rebuke you for your actions, and possibly to get you to live your life in a better way. However, it's not one's place to shun, ridicule, and disown someone for a sin, if there's going to be judgement, it's going to come from God, not from Billy, the friendly neighborhood bible beater.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The weak needs an armor of faith while the strong walk naked before us all." -not sure of author<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just when I thought the face of aetheism had changed....
If I were to follow the teachings of Jesus letter for letter, I would take all I had, give what I had to those who needed it, and use my life preaching the Gospel, with the only thing sustaining my basic human needs would be my faith in the fact that somehow, God would provide me with a meal and a place to lay my head down every day. Maybe I'd stil have an apartment, or a house, but I'd surely be sharing it with those who couldn't afford one.
Aethesim encourages people to be their own person, and work for themselves and whoever else they please.
Who sounds stronger, the man who gives all he has, and spends his life teaching on faith and faith alone, or he who lives in his life for himself?
Sorry if I snapped, but I hate it when people accuse me of being weak because of something I hold close to my heart.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I were to follow the teachings of Jesus letter for letter, I would take all I had, give what I had to those who needed it, and use my life preaching the Gospel, with the only thing sustaining my basic human needs would be my faith in the fact that somehow, God would provide me with a meal and a place to lay my head down every day. Maybe I'd stil have an apartment, or a house, but I'd surely be sharing it with those who couldn't afford one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->\ The point is not if you WOULD, it's if you DO.
Longtooth, I got most of the knowledge I know about the Nordic gods from the "Big book of Mythology" (not exact title, but it's what I call it). I was bored one night a few years ago and read through the entire Nordic section in one sitting. Pretty intresting stuff.
Ok, I just found it.
"The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology" - Arthur Cotterell and Rachel Storm.
It has mythology from almost any region you can think of, chinese, Japanese, Norse, Greco-Roman, Egypt, Celtic, India, No african mythos though
and read Beowulf (any edition, so long as it is translated).
and it is the Golden Apples of Idun that the Norse Gods (I use the term loosely) eat to stay alive until Ragnarok.
I'm sorry, (well, not really). I decided to choose the path of ignorance and not read through a lot of what was posted. So feel free to mock me, cause I'll be doing that myself as I look at my posts in retrospect and laugh at traces of what I left behind, (aka, my excrements).
If I recall the scars I suffered in former debating ground, when arguing about the situation where life arose from a pile of goo, people are not exactly arguing about evolution: they are arguing about the process of abiogenisis - life from non-life. And I think what makes this view disagreeable with some Christians? (I'm not exactly sure which group is attacking this idea) is that life <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>very slowly</span> evolved from this goo into humans. As a Christian, or a person who's [b]trying</b> to be a Christian, abiogenesis doesn't seem to contradict anything. Sure, man was supposedly made in one day, but heck, "one day" to who? Humans? or God? I pick God, and by picking God, I also believe that his sense of time is not our sense of time. Either that, or it's metaphorical, I don't really care. Abiogenesis seems to have a lot of evidence, and it's not like the Bible gave a step by step process as to how everything happened. But apes to man? I don't think so... Minor evolution? Aye. Major Evolution? Nay.
As of right now, my faith is in... a not so plesant situation, (hence the "trying" to be a Christian part of my writing). I am just so tired of finding truth, when there is so much **** that covers it. I can't believe I got into this all from arguing about the war on Iraq with a teacher; so many half-truths out there, you have to break off BS propaganda that's entwined inbetween, and save what's real. But they come in such small pieces, and they don't make sense unless you find the matching slivers. Heck! I'm a bloody "truth" archaeologist! - Hence I was discouraged for awhile concerning my faith; I am now in a state of... uncaring I suppose? I'll be hauling myself out of it soon... I have to.
I apologize in advance for this whirl of incoherrence - please join me next time as we laugh at how idiotic the second portion of this post was.
[MORE] In my current state, I consider myself a Doubting Thomas. So many people talk about what's God done for them: something huge, something <b>spiritual</b>. And I don't think I've had this "touch" yet. I'm patient... which is not enough. I have to do something to see this spirtuality explode in my eyes.
I think a huge problem lies in the society we live in today, (for me, that would be North America). There are amazing miracles out there, but they simply don't happen here, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT IMPRESSED BY THEM. Spirtual warfare in first world countries, on the surface, looks very subtle. In this turf, evil does not come in the form of withdoctors, voodoo, and displays supernatural force - because over here, we have explanations for everything! The weird individuals we see around are hushed and put into the insane asylum. But these extraordinary signs exist in other lesser developed countries, and it is there where God counters with His own force, which to me, is much more impressive. The spirtual battles in this society however revolve around addiction: addiction to money, sex, materialistic goods, materialistic power, things that seem simple that I find it more difficult to implicate some force of evil directly using it against me. But alas, I am living proof that this "evil" is successful; it is subtle, that I often dismiss it as that's just how things are. Nothing there. - So I feel that seeing this other side of spirtual warfare would really be a big boost for me.
Nice, I've been classified already:
<i>B) Someone who cannot see, touch, or feel "God." These people usually are the science nuts in the group</i>
- Exactly my current state: I want to believe things that make sense, that have a logical explanation. And despite knowing that some items matter cannot be explained, I continue to cling on to this. I find that I simply cannot "let go" into blind faith, <b>nor do I have to.</b> And yet... that would seem the solution I seek - an "experience" that's big enough the simply wipe away the roadblocks of "logic" that cloud this strenuous path of life. Answers in time... and I still have patience in spite of the spirtual mishap that screwed me up a few weeks back.
I have an analytical mind. IT means that I kick **** in math and stuff, but I'm most definately the least creative person I know. For me, everything has to have a reason, and a purpose, and a how it happened.... Not nessecarily so I can accpet it as fact, but so that I can throw it through my head and chew on it for a while.
I think what's happening to you, Confuzor, is that you're looking for things to chew on, to try to keep you coming back to God, but you're just not finding them. It happens to everyone, wether it be in the form of truth, of compassion, or just fellowship with other people. People get spiritually depressed. Even Elijah did, who between him and Elisha, probably performed more miracles in their lifetimes then anyone, save Jesus. Lets see if I can dig up the passage....
OK, 1 Kings 19 talks all about it. After every spiritual victory, there is a spiritual depression.
The thing about God, that I've noticed, is that if you're not constantly growing, at least slightly, then you're falling away, in some way, shape, or form.
I think that the best thing taht you could do right now would be to try to hook up with a good, study-oriented non-denominational church around your town. The one I go to has a meeting once a wekk that gets really into the word, doing an inductive study, and the traditional teaching every Sunday evening. Not only, then, do you learn more about God, and find truth, but you also get involved in some really good friendships with other people. I know I sound weird reccomending this, but at least check it out.
If you're looking for something to go through, and find truth in... Check out Romans, that basicly outlines the how and the why to Christianity, 1 Corinthians is good, that's basicly the guidelines for setting up a church, and Hebrews....
Hewbrews is a little heavy, though. Ok, very heavy. May not want to read into it unless you're up for some serious cross-referencing and interpretation of passages. Things like Hebrews 10:27-28 really screw around with those who are faltering, but they do have valid interpretations. I'm doing a teaching on it in about 3 weeks for my study group, so I can probably try to help you along with it.
Oh, and if you _really_ want something to chew on, find out everything you can about Melchizedek. There are, literally, 2 verses with his name in the old testament, but he's the focus of the entire chapter of Hebrews 7.
Alot of posts I would like to quote, but i'm to dang lazy. So i'll try my best to cover alot of the stuff said.
Some said something about who made god? I wonder everyday how god came to be, but that is something i'll never find out till I meet my father in heaven. All you need to know is that God is the Alpha and the Omega, The beggining and the End.
Most people do not believe in the lord cause they believe the word of god is just made up stuff, and there is no proof. There's plenty of proof there if people actually read the bible and KNOWS how to read the scriptures, by taking it back to the greek and hebrew language. But i'll give you a good one.. The start of the end times in 1948.. If you know some history or can find out some stuff that happened back then, do it.
In Jeremiah Chapter 24 verse 3 Then said the lord unto me, What seest thou, Jeremaih? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.
4 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 5 Thus saith the Lord, the God of isreal; Like these good figs, so I willacknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am lord; and they shall return unto me with their whole heart. 8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the King of Judah, and the princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt.
Then people say stuff like this: Or if God was So great why does he allow death, rape, and every other sin happen? Because he want's us to see how stupid we are and viscuos we can be towards each other. One thing I can't stress the most.. God gave us a brain, use it. and God says about murderers, "send him to me and I deal with him" We have a law to convict murderers and that should be put to death, for god can deal with them. But let's us know to make a fair and right judgement.
nd people believe he does not exist cause there lives are going down hill or your homeless. God says, "If you do not work, you shall not eat". God will not help you along in life if you do not help yourself first. You can't expect god to do everything for you.
esus Christ is God... They are the same.. There are so many Christians and Catholics that do not know this. It's because they do not read the bible properly. 75% of the Christian Churchs believe there will be a rapture, that god will take all good people up with him before the Anti-Christ comes. The word "Rapture" is not even in the bible. I forgot exactly where they got this rapture theory.. But anyways...
About the beggining of time, evolution and so on. There was a 1st age before adam and eve.. That's where your dinos come from, and there were also human beings. Some of you christians are probably going "huh? It sayd Adam and eve were the first human beings?" but i'll give you the words in genesis after this. God destroyed the face on the earth, killing everything on the surface. And the big bang theory, we'll probably never know. And if there was one, More and likely god did it.
Here's the words of genesis for both Legionnaired and DOOManiac... Gonna be long, but here it is.
Genesis Chapter 1 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. 24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. "Take note that he made man and female in his image on the the fifth day" Let's skip some versus...
Genesis Chapter 2 7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8: And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Adam and Eve were created on the 7th day.
But if you already knew, then my apologies. Not everyone studys the bible the right way like they should.
But back to everything else. Trying to read everyones posts.
Here's a quote from, Longtooth. """ prefer to look at the world with my own eyes and deciede things with my own free will, I never liked the idea of a being whom I have never seen telling me what I can and cannot do and threatening me with eternal pain if i disobey him. I also didn't like being treated like an animal where if I do what said being tells me to do I will get a cookie."""" He owns that flesh body your using right now, it's his temple, your a soul using his temple. He gave you life and created this earth and every living creature, plant and fruit. He gave us law to obey... He died for our sins... He's not threating anyone of eternal life of pain if you do not listen to him or believe in him. He warns everyone that if you do not follow his word or try too, he will erase you from the book of life and you will be no more. No you wil not goto hell or be thrown into the lake of fire either. There is no hell, hell is not even used in the bible. Satan is in heaven for you christians and catholics out there. Study and you'll find this out for yourself. And do not FORGET, that God is a forgiving God. He will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness and mean it from the heart everyday. All he asks from his children is to do your best in life and love him and only him, cause he is your father. And to read his word he has given us.
And yes, God is THE supreme being. If he wanted to take your life, he would. If he wanted to end all life, he could.
And about diffrent religions, like catholics, jews and so on. Every religion thinks some things are true and not true. Like Catholics, They where necklaces with jesus christ crucified on a cross. he doesn't want you to remember him that way. And they ask for forgiveness from a pastor/father in a box. God don't want you asking for forgiveness from another human being, cause that person isn't god, he can't forgive you for your sins. God want's you to ask him and only him. But we call this "Traditions of Men"...
And science?..... Science is good in alot of things, but people relying on science will be there downfall. Come on guys, we weren't evolved from apes. Is anyone craving for a banana? Cause i'm sure not..
But everyone has their right to believe in what they want and do whatever they want. You'll just end up paying the price when you meet your maker. Not to sound rude, but i've always felt this way, so plz forgive me. I can't wait to see the faces on all the non-believers, satan worshippers, false religions and so on, when the Anti Christ comes... Then the lord. Cause alot of people are gonna be crapping their pants and probably begging for forgiveness at the sametime.
But that's my $100 bill on this subject. Man I never posted something this long ever. My fingers are about to fall off.
Excuse my bad grammar and spelling. I've been up 2 days and I wanted to post this fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--Porno Smurf+Feb 16 2003, 12:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Porno Smurf @ Feb 16 2003, 12:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus Christ is God... They are the same.. There are so many Christians and Catholics that do not know this. It's because they do not read the bible properly. 75% of the Christian Churchs believe there will be a rapture, that god will take all good people up with him before the Anti-Christ comes. The word "Rapture" is not even in the bible. I forgot exactly where they got this rapture theory.. But anyways... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Revelations 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
There are a few other scattered references to it too.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 15 2003, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2003, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who sounds stronger, the man who gives all he has, and spends his life teaching on faith and faith alone, or he who lives in his life for himself? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The man who gives all he has must rely on someone or something to provide for him, even if that be god. The man who provides for himself leaches off noone.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dezmodium+Feb 16 2003, 08:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dezmodium @ Feb 16 2003, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 15 2003, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2003, 06:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Who sounds stronger, the man who gives all he has, and spends his life teaching on faith and faith alone, or he who lives in his life for himself? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The man who gives all he has must rely on someone or something to provide for him, even if that be god. The man who provides for himself leaches off noone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's hard to leach off of an omnipotent being in such a way to anger them.....
And even so, who says that the person that chooses to believe in God is weak? It's a choice we make, not someone falling and grasping for something to catch them. Sometimes it happens like that, but I know plenty of people who'se reason for accepting Christ was simply because it made sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 17 2003, 04:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 17 2003, 04:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's hard to leach off of an omnipotent being in such a way to anger them..... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I see, but you missed the point.
As far as people beleiving in christ because it makes sense:
The reason I don't beleive in christianity is because it defies all rational thought in every way possibly. But hey, I guess thats just me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Dezmodium+Feb 17 2003, 01:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dezmodium @ Feb 17 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The reason I don't beleive in christianity is because it defies all rational thought in every way possibly. But hey, I guess thats just me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Though rationality does change with the times also.
What may be thought rational today may not be thought rational two thousand years from now, and was probably not during the time of Christ himself.
Not that I am against your views however, that's cool by me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Take the bible for example (only using this because it is widely known and an easy target). The bible contains many things in it that MANY people do not agree with. Like homosexuality and genocide issues. These are things that GOD himself were supposed to have the absolute perfect right answer to and yet lots of people disagree with it. It shows imperfection which GOD cannot have because the bible says he is perfect and whatnot. Also, the old and new testament GOD contradicts his views many times on different things like slavery, for example. Another thing is that many profecies and "wise" words that have been given by GOD are very broad and general and can be taken in EXTREMELY different ways. (I.E. whereas one man may say that killing heathans is GOD's work, like in the old testament, another man would say it is wrong, kind of how GOD contradicts himself by saying "thou shalt not kill"). So many would say that man has fussed up the bible by translating it and putting it into his own words. Then why base your life off a book that is imperfect? Surely GOD could not have written this book that is so **** up? Life is hard enough as it is without trying to figure out the labrynth that is organized religion.
Now, take this into consideration. If GOD is an omnipotent being, and I don't think he/she/it/ is, what if GOD knew how clumsy language is, and how different people interpreted things in different ways, and knew that the constant translation of religous scriptures would eventual erode their pure meaning. So, GOD, throughout history, produces many different religions that all have pretty much one main teaching so that people who are really seeking the truth will look at all the different scriptures from all around the world and see this one universal truth, in its pure form, and that the only way to understand it is to look at the picture as a whole and not just from one direction, not just one part.
Its very hard to do but heres a pretty universal law that if everyone followed, we would all be better off:
"Be cool to each other."
This is the message I get from reading scriptures from all different points of view be it Satanism, Occult worship, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism, etc. and so on and so forth. Unfortunately we can't do this and that's where things get so freaking complicated.
Comments
`Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitas.'
(entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily')
As in don't add extra things for no reason.
And science has eliminated the need for mass-religion.
blah, i'm rambling now, must consume flesh.
and Occam's Razor is:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one.
hahaha that made me think of south park when they were in hell and asked what the correct religion is, and hes like it was the mormons, yes the mormons, and they're all like damn! any wack on topic... doom, my views are as yours. i grew up christian and stuff and i don't often go to church... at all. i think there MIGHT be some divine presence, but i don't know. i'm more into the scientific aspect of things...
[edit]
and the more i think about it, the more i believe that people that were raised christian don't have as much faith as someone that finds it later in their life.
[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The first thing I have to address is the belief that since bad things were carried out in the past, in the name of God, the religion itself is fubar. If you read Luke 4, I believe, where it talks about the temptation of Jesus, according to the bible, even Satan can use scripture for his own purposes. Is this a reason to not believe in something? Because it can be missused? If so, then why believe in medical science if it can be used for developing nerve gas?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It can be hard to tell what someone really means when they say "believe." When a lot of us say we "believe" in this/that, what we really mean is that based on the imperfect information we have, that seems like the best guess to go with. "Did you leave your sunglasses in the car?" "Yes, I believe so." A statement of belief doesn't really imply anything more than what your current battle plan is.
However, in a lot of religious contexts, "belief" means something different. It not only means what you *think* is true, it also represents what you *WANT* to be true. That makes things kind of messy, especially when you try to talk about them. Obviously it should be possible to believe that Item A is true, without necessarily preferring it. You can believe your car got stolen without being happy about it.
But a lot of times, religious people interpret what agnostics or atheists say they believe as being also what they PREFER, or wish to be. I think that is taking it too far- I, for example, lean towards believing there is no god, but I don't consider that to be anything more than an evaluation of what I know. That's not the same as saying I don't WANT there to be a god. It just says that at this point in time, I'm not convinced, and guess towards the alternative. I wouldn't feel bad about myself if I learned something later that changed my mind- I'm not advocating anything one way or the other by making educated guesses. If you are fishing on a lake, it doesn't mean you're morally corrupt because the place you believed the fish would be turned out to be empty, or vice versa. It just means you were incorrect- it doesn't mean you wanted there to be no fish, or that you should go to Hell for "turning away from the fish." (I'm not putting words in your mouth here.
That said, I "believe" in science insofar as it continues to give the most consistent forcasting for my life. I don't feel guilty when it is wrong, nor I do I think it is infallible. It just seems in practice to be the most reliable and repeatable way to get accurate results. A lot of phrases and approaches I was exposed to during my religious schooling have turned out in practice to be very unreliable and arbitrary. As a result, I don't utilize those methods in my life. That doesn't mean they always lead to bad things, or that they won't start working tomorrow. But since they haven't worked so far, it seems dishonest to pretend that they do. There are no repeatable tests to raise the dead, reveal God, etc, and plenty of repeatable tests to show how bad record keeping used to be, so it doesn't make sense to me to give these things much thought. That's not much of a value judgement. It doesn't mean I wouldn't give them more attention if they started happening all around me.
Believing something is true or not should be considered completely separate from what you prefer to be reality.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's fine if you want to judge me, but don't think that I'm stupid, and that's the only reason I accepted Christ. My IQ is somewhere between 141 and 170, I have a 4.109 QPA, and a class rank of 19 of 583, I'm not thick headed by any stretch of the imagination.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't an issue of stupidity. We all take guesses and act on things we can't prove. The difference lies in whether you think a person's values can be evaluated based on what they believe to be reality. Just because I don't want my girlfriend to die in a car wreck tonight doesn't mean that I should work towards telling myself that she won't. That's an unnecessary and somewhat silly thing to do.
Obviously you're an intelligent person, because you have good writing skills. But you may as well stop using school or IQ tests as a benchmark, these are highly flawed and really only measure output in certain situations, and don't account at all for the possibility of people not wanting to participate in the benchmarking. School systems focus on skills that will produce workers for corporate environments, out of the need to ensure economic and social stability. That's shooting pretty low. I was a 1337 student until my mid-teens, but my abilities didn't really begin to flourish until I had left the structured academic environment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why, then, do I insist on clinging to a 2000 year old religion? Because my life is happyer now with it then without it. It's a purpose, it's a comfort, it's a rebuke, but more importantly, it's a better way to live your life.
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I think religion does benefit the person who follows it. The problem is what that does to other people around them. There's plenty of studies that conclude that devoutly religious people often seem to live a long time. That doesn't necessarily make them right. Since religion can be viewed as a mental construct to ward off existential terror, the more fluffy the expectation, the less stress there is, and lower blood pressure, etc.
However, that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying this trip at other people's expense. For example, religious beliefs often cause people to try to control how other people live, whether they like it or not. In my own life, neither my parents nor my "girlfriend's" parents will take an interest in our lives together, because we're not married. Even though we've been partners for seven years, they don't want to hear about our vacations, or give us financial assistance, or otherwise recognize our combined plans and experiences, all because they're convinced we're sinning by not getting married. That's a lot of memories, laughs, bonding, etc, down the toilet on account of taking the Bible literally. So while perhaps their beliefs have benefitted them in warding off existential angst, it has severely damaged some of their important personal relationships.
On a much larger scale, we have people trying to block sex education for religious reasons, despite the dangerous consequences. Environmental issues are ignored out of the belief that the end of the world is coming soon anyway, or that God regulates the environment and intended for rampant expansion, so we don't have to worry about it.
I'm not saying you endorse any of these things. But I'd like to argue that even if a particular style of thought is pleasing or beneficial to an individual, it might be badly hurting the people around them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It isn't an issue of stupidity. We all take guesses and act on things we can't prove. The difference lies in whether you think a person's values can be evaluated based on what they believe to be reality. Just because I don't want my girlfriend to die in a car wreck tonight doesn't mean that I should work towards telling myself that she won't. That's an unnecessary and somewhat silly thing to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First of all, allow me to apologize for my spouting off my own mental statistics. The great majority of athesits I come in contact with on a regular basis assume that any sort of religion is for the weak, and that once someone has the intelectual capabilities to comprehend that something could have come about other then the whim of God, then they are a moron not to accept the fact that we are alone here. I apologize for lumping all of you guys into this catagory, but given my frame of reference, I wasn't sure what to expect.
Anyway. Surely, a person can be an athesit, while still having a moral and ethical standard that is stronger and more adherant to the biblical teaching then that of a christian. I did not mean to try to profess that just because someone does not believe in the God of the bible, then they are a horrible person. Obviously, by no means is this true.
You do draw a good point, however, that maybe we just want to feel like there's someone out there watching out for us, covering our back, and thus, in our own mind, we make that divine being true in our minds. Interesting concept. However, the point is moot, if the being that we adhere to causes us as angst or pain because of out belief in it. *Buh?*. Living and walking in the christian life style isn't always easy. I've known people who become so guilty that they haven't been able to follow laws set down in the bible, that they become distraught and depressed. I myself struggle with some areas in my life, wich would be easyer to deal with, without my faith in Christ as my personal savior. Sexual immorality, judging people, or talking to people in a way that belittles them, are all things I really did not feel guilty about before I became a Christian. Overall, yes, my life has been better off after accepting Him. But, if my religion were not real, and were actually made up for comfort, would it not make sense that those things in my life that the Bible says is wrong would somehow be able to be smoothed over, or avoided, or softened in harshness, if the faith was really something that was real to me, in my own mind, and to no-one else?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying this trip at other people's expense. For example, religious beliefs often cause people to try to control how other people live, whether they like it or not. In my own life, neither my parents nor my "girlfriend's" parents will take an interest in our lives together, because we're not married. Even though we've been partners for seven years, they don't want to hear about our vacations, or give us financial assistance, or otherwise recognize our combined plans and experiences, all because they're convinced we're sinning by not getting married. That's a lot of memories, laughs, bonding, etc, down the toilet on account of taking the Bible literally. So while perhaps their beliefs have benefitted them in warding off existential angst, it has severely damaged some of their important personal relationships.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<span style='color:white'>Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.</span>
This, being the a significant bedrock of Christian teaching, that we are justified by our faith in Christ, is also the reason why my sins are just as black as yours. It doesn't matter if I've only stolen a few bucks, or killed a man, both are equally condemning. I sympathize with you here, I really do. I wish you and your girlfriend happiness in the future, and I'm sorry that your parents are being so un-loving to you. Although, perhaps, what you do is wrong, It's pretty clear in the NT that judgement is for God, and he alone.
<span style='color:Red'>Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?</span>
Love everyone, practice hospitality, and share, even with those who hate you. I think the "Turn the other cheek" verse was in the same sermon. Although, personally, I don't approve of your sex before marriage, (never directly stated, but I think it was implied) it is my place to talk with you, about it, and encourage you to live your life in a way that is righteous and fulfilling, not to heap wrath onto your head because of the things you do. Woudn't that be the pot calling the kettle black.
God is a relational God. Time and time again, through the Bible, we see that more often than not, the miracles performed are those of person to person, and of compassion and love. Surely, the memorable ones are things like, say, the swarm of locusts, but far more often are relationships the tools for the holy spirit to work through. If we were self-sustaining people of faith, or if Christ decended from the sky whenever we needed guidance, then what use would there be for going to church on sunday, or talking to other believers about the in's and out's of their walk with God? Destroying a healthy, loving relationship is a horrible thing. Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is?
I'll be praying for you, and your family, that maybe they'll be able to be more supporting in the future. Not of the sin, but of the love between two people, and the love OF two people. Hate the sin, love the person.
Wow that's a lot. I'm going to go frag something, I'll be back later to answer the new, obligatory round of objections.
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I have only heard one other person say that in my life, and it was not here...so I'll leave you to keep your count <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
--
And to Legion on his Matthew 5:38-47 verse...that's great in an idealistic world, but to <i>me</i>; I would value realism over it. It's perfectly well to be kind, share, and sacrifice your things for others. There is a certain level of "restriction" as I'll call it, however. One has to earn a level of respect on an individual basis,
As I like to say: "I'm not prejudiced, everyone has an equal opportunity to be hated by me." (that <b>IS</b> in jest FYI) - though I truly hate no one. I am indifferent to some people, but I hate none.
But the same goes for the reverse. I will be nice, humorous, and/or kind to a new person I meet, I can get along with anybody, as long as they don't give me hell. I will treat them like they are my friend (if the situation is right for it - you wouldn't wanna treat your Drill Sergeant as a friend upon meeting them for the first time in BCT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). If they show me some niceness in return, and are not dirtbags about it, they continue to earn my respect. Once they cross the line though, that level of respect diminishes greatly; they step too far and they lose it altogether and indefinitely.
Also, there is a difference (as I see it anyway) between the love of all things, and the love between two individuals, be it spousal or familiar. Love is, nowadays, a pretty generic term...and is thrown around too easily. Perhaps the real meaning of the word is long-lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to flame - but if your parents are not Christian, and have not raised you in a Christian fashion, they cannot show you the love of Christ. To me this statement came across as if you were trying to push your religion onto us...that's one thing that really sucks about the internet. You cannot see the real meaning behind the words, and each phrase can be taken in innumerable ways. To use the old cliche "<i>A picture is worth a thousand words</i>," is so fitting. So please if we're taking a message the way you did not intend for us to take it - interpret more specifically. I will do so, if you ask. I'm sure many people take me the wrong way here just from the responses I get.
.....
Love everyone, practice hospitality, and share, even with those who hate you. I think the "Turn the other cheek" verse was in the same sermon.
.......
God is a relational God. Time and time again, through the Bible, we see that more often than not, the miracles performed are those of person to person, and of compassion and love. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I beleive in a higher power but not a higher being.
On that note, it is very hard living my life in a constant state of aloneness. I don't beleive anyone is watching over me and making sure I am taken care of. This is hard to swallow. So I would have to disagree and say that at least you have faith to fall back on, I only have myself, but become strong becuase I struggle.
"The weak needs an armor of faith while the strong walk naked before us all." -not sure of author
......
"If a man strikes you on one cheek, SMASH him on the other!
Smite him limb from limb for self-preservation is the highest law."
-Anton LaVey
"let people stomp on you"
What have you gained by encouraging parasites?
......
"Hate only those who are deserving of it."
How can one fully understand love without experiencing hate?
......
God also performed miracles such as killing infants and animals, spreading blight, and giving his followers the power to slaughter whole peoples.
This is something that I definately do envy of people with a strong faith.
I have a coworker at work who is perhaps the best Christian I know. She isn't a nut, she doesn't persecute others, she gives her time to needy, etc. The ideal Christian pretty much.
Its amazing just to see her talk about things and to realize just how much her faith means to her. It keeps her happy and always gives her a sense of purpose. Even tough times like when her mother passed on were eased so much by her faith. Whats even more is the genuinely feels the touch of God in her everyday affairs, and its just normal.
So, yeah, I do kinda envy that sense of peacefullness and security one can get. But alas that's just not for me...
Now if want to get into Christianity, which god are Christian's supposed to follow? In the Old Testemant (Hebrew Bible), God is venguful and smites his foes. For Flayra's sake he drowns the entire world! Then the New Testement suddenly does a 180 and says "Love and Peace". See how many Christians would be confused?
Which teachings should be followed? One passage says that if a man lies with another man as he would lie with a woman then that man must be put to death" Should all Christians slaughter homosexuals?" Witchcraft and sorcery must be stamped out, "Should all Christians burn fantasy novels and Harry Potter fans?" It'a all very well to say "But we don't follow those beliefs" but if they're part of your religious teachings then how can you ignore them. If the Bible is what god wants his people to do then I certainly would fear such a god. If god does not want us to have sex before marriage, why give us sexual urges and desires? Yes, I brought up sex, that dreaded word for the devout Christian. If it truely was intended to be just for reproduction, why make it pleasurable? Evolution has the answer here: if an activity is pleasureable then a species will be more inclined to do it. A specieis that does not reproduce dies, whilst one that reproduces will have a better chance of success.
I just don't find Christianity a very viable religion. Once the Reformation occurs and through printing people can actually read the Bible they start to find all the problems and holes in it's ideas. It's a tribute to the religion that it has survived this long.
I still say Flayraism is the answer <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's actually a very, very common theme. Several other religions have a flood myth, or a similar "purifying" type myth.
And science has eliminated the need for mass-religion.
blah, i'm rambling now, must consume flesh.
and Occam's Razor is:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feeled ashamed that I am 95% nordic and don't know anything about my peoples traditional religion. Anyone know where I could get some info on it?
<span style='color:white'>Matthew 9:10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples.
11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
14 Then John's disciples came and asked him, "How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?"
15 Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.
16 "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse.
17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."
</span>
In the old testament, the only way that the nation of Israel was to be kept pure, and set aside long enough to multiply in numbers, so that they may one day deliver God's message to the world, was to make it a nation where sin was legally wrong.
The first five books of the bible are, the most cited in the OT for a reason. Namely, there is so much judgement in them, wether it be of the Caananites, or of a sinner. However, if and when you believe that there is a God who created you, it's not that much of a streach to believe that he has the right to do whatever he wants, (It's his universe, after all) and from there, the OT judgement is rationalized pretty easy.
All mankind has fallen short of God's glory and perfectness, according to both OT and NT teachings. Once that trust, that good standing with God is violated, then basicly, it's all over. You can't come into fellowship with God if you've fallen that far short of his perfection. That's where Christ comes in, to act as a scapegoat for all of our sins. By his own will, he made all who believe perfect. It's as if all of your transgressions are kept in a folder, and you can either hold onto it yourself, and take the heat for it, or you can let Jesus, the Son and Christ of God, take it for you. That's the basics of Christianity right there. At first glance, it's not very loving stuff, telling you you're condemned to hell for all eternity unless you believe. A lot of people say it's not fair.
Is it fair to the Son of God, that he should take all of the suffering meant for you onto Him, when He's done nothing wrong?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, there is a difference (as I see it anyway) between the love of all things, and the love between two individuals, be it spousal or familiar. Love is, nowadays, a pretty generic term...and is thrown around too easily. Perhaps the real meaning of the word is long-lost.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Certainly, your parents have the right, and, well, the duty as parents to rebuke and admonish you for your actions, but to cast you aside and not show you what the love of Christ is?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to flame - but if your parents are not Christian, and have not raised you in a Christian fashion, they cannot show you the love of Christ. To me this statement came across as if you were trying to push your religion onto us...that's one thing that really sucks about the internet. You cannot see the real meaning behind the words, and each phrase can be taken in innumerable ways. To use the old cliche "A picture is worth a thousand words," is so fitting. So please if we're taking a message the way you did not intend for us to take it - interpret more specifically. I will do so, if you ask. I'm sure many people take me the wrong way here just from the responses I get. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes, when I think of being forced to diagram my own sentences, I make myself sad. Let's see if I can clarify.
I think that if everyone were a Christian, the world would be a better place, I really do, and given the opportunity, I try to share what I believe with other people, that much is true.
However, forcing relgion onto someone is no way to do something. I'm sorry if I came across as pushy, it wasn't the desired effect.
I assumed your parents were Christian by the way you described them in your post. I guess not. What I meant to say was, that it is certainly someone's place to rebuke you for your actions, and possibly to get you to live your life in a better way. However, it's not one's place to shun, ridicule, and disown someone for a sin, if there's going to be judgement, it's going to come from God, not from Billy, the friendly neighborhood bible beater.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"The weak needs an armor of faith while the strong walk naked before us all." -not sure of author<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just when I thought the face of aetheism had changed....
If I were to follow the teachings of Jesus letter for letter, I would take all I had, give what I had to those who needed it, and use my life preaching the Gospel, with the only thing sustaining my basic human needs would be my faith in the fact that somehow, God would provide me with a meal and a place to lay my head down every day. Maybe I'd stil have an apartment, or a house, but I'd surely be sharing it with those who couldn't afford one.
Aethesim encourages people to be their own person, and work for themselves and whoever else they please.
Who sounds stronger, the man who gives all he has, and spends his life teaching on faith and faith alone, or he who lives in his life for himself?
Sorry if I snapped, but I hate it when people accuse me of being weak because of something I hold close to my heart.
The point is not if you WOULD, it's if you DO.
Ok, I just found it.
"The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology" - Arthur Cotterell and Rachel Storm.
It has mythology from almost any region you can think of, chinese, Japanese, Norse, Greco-Roman, Egypt, Celtic, India, No african mythos though
and read Beowulf (any edition, so long as it is translated).
and it is the Golden Apples of Idun that the Norse Gods (I use the term loosely) eat to stay alive until Ragnarok.
If I recall the scars I suffered in former debating ground, when arguing about the situation where life arose from a pile of goo, people are not exactly arguing about evolution: they are arguing about the process of abiogenisis - life from non-life. And I think what makes this view disagreeable with some Christians? (I'm not exactly sure which group is attacking this idea) is that life <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>very slowly</span> evolved from this goo into humans. As a Christian, or a person who's [b]trying</b> to be a Christian, abiogenesis doesn't seem to contradict anything. Sure, man was supposedly made in one day, but heck, "one day" to who? Humans? or God? I pick God, and by picking God, I also believe that his sense of time is not our sense of time. Either that, or it's metaphorical, I don't really care. Abiogenesis seems to have a lot of evidence, and it's not like the Bible gave a step by step process as to how everything happened. But apes to man? I don't think so... Minor evolution? Aye. Major Evolution? Nay.
As of right now, my faith is in... a not so plesant situation, (hence the "trying" to be a Christian part of my writing). I am just so tired of finding truth, when there is so much **** that covers it. I can't believe I got into this all from arguing about the war on Iraq with a teacher; so many half-truths out there, you have to break off BS propaganda that's entwined inbetween, and save what's real. But they come in such small pieces, and they don't make sense unless you find the matching slivers. Heck! I'm a bloody "truth" archaeologist! - Hence I was discouraged for awhile concerning my faith; I am now in a state of... uncaring I suppose? I'll be hauling myself out of it soon... I have to.
I apologize in advance for this whirl of incoherrence - please join me next time as we laugh at how idiotic the second portion of this post was.
[MORE]
In my current state, I consider myself a Doubting Thomas. So many people talk about what's God done for them: something huge, something <b>spiritual</b>. And I don't think I've had this "touch" yet. I'm patient... which is not enough. I have to do something to see this spirtuality explode in my eyes.
I think a huge problem lies in the society we live in today, (for me, that would be North America). There are amazing miracles out there, but they simply don't happen here, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT IMPRESSED BY THEM. Spirtual warfare in first world countries, on the surface, looks very subtle. In this turf, evil does not come in the form of withdoctors, voodoo, and displays supernatural force - because over here, we have explanations for everything! The weird individuals we see around are hushed and put into the insane asylum. But these extraordinary signs exist in other lesser developed countries, and it is there where God counters with His own force, which to me, is much more impressive. The spirtual battles in this society however revolve around addiction: addiction to money, sex, materialistic goods, materialistic power, things that seem simple that I find it more difficult to implicate some force of evil directly using it against me. But alas, I am living proof that this "evil" is successful; it is subtle, that I often dismiss it as that's just how things are. Nothing there. - So I feel that seeing this other side of spirtual warfare would really be a big boost for me.
Nice, I've been classified already:
<i>B) Someone who cannot see, touch, or feel "God." These people usually are the science nuts in the group</i>
- Exactly my current state: I want to believe things that make sense, that have a logical explanation. And despite knowing that some items matter cannot be explained, I continue to cling on to this. I find that I simply cannot "let go" into blind faith, <b>nor do I have to.</b> And yet... that would seem the solution I seek - an "experience" that's big enough the simply wipe away the roadblocks of "logic" that cloud this strenuous path of life. Answers in time... and I still have patience in spite of the spirtual mishap that screwed me up a few weeks back.
Best be stop ranting now...
I have an analytical mind. IT means that I kick **** in math and stuff, but I'm most definately the least creative person I know. For me, everything has to have a reason, and a purpose, and a how it happened.... Not nessecarily so I can accpet it as fact, but so that I can throw it through my head and chew on it for a while.
I think what's happening to you, Confuzor, is that you're looking for things to chew on, to try to keep you coming back to God, but you're just not finding them. It happens to everyone, wether it be in the form of truth, of compassion, or just fellowship with other people. People get spiritually depressed. Even Elijah did, who between him and Elisha, probably performed more miracles in their lifetimes then anyone, save Jesus. Lets see if I can dig up the passage....
OK, 1 Kings 19 talks all about it. After every spiritual victory, there is a spiritual depression.
The thing about God, that I've noticed, is that if you're not constantly growing, at least slightly, then you're falling away, in some way, shape, or form.
I think that the best thing taht you could do right now would be to try to hook up with a good, study-oriented non-denominational church around your town. The one I go to has a meeting once a wekk that gets really into the word, doing an inductive study, and the traditional teaching every Sunday evening. Not only, then, do you learn more about God, and find truth, but you also get involved in some really good friendships with other people. I know I sound weird reccomending this, but at least check it out.
If you're looking for something to go through, and find truth in... Check out Romans, that basicly outlines the how and the why to Christianity, 1 Corinthians is good, that's basicly the guidelines for setting up a church, and Hebrews....
Hewbrews is a little heavy, though. Ok, very heavy. May not want to read into it unless you're up for some serious cross-referencing and interpretation of passages. Things like Hebrews 10:27-28 really screw around with those who are faltering, but they do have valid interpretations. I'm doing a teaching on it in about 3 weeks for my study group, so I can probably try to help you along with it.
Oh, and if you _really_ want something to chew on, find out everything you can about Melchizedek. There are, literally, 2 verses with his name in the old testament, but he's the focus of the entire chapter of Hebrews 7.
Some said something about who made god? I wonder everyday how god came to be, but that is something i'll never find out till I meet my father in heaven. All you need to know is that God is the Alpha and the Omega, The beggining and the End.
Most people do not believe in the lord cause they believe the word of god is just made up stuff, and there is no proof. There's plenty of proof there if people actually read the bible and KNOWS how to read the scriptures, by taking it back to the greek and hebrew language. But i'll give you a good one.. The start of the end times in 1948.. If you know some history or can find out some stuff that happened back then, do it.
In Jeremiah Chapter 24 verse 3 Then said the lord unto me, What seest thou, Jeremaih? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.
4 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
5 Thus saith the Lord, the God of isreal; Like these good figs, so I willacknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land; and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am lord; and they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the King of Judah, and the princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt.
Then people say stuff like this: Or if God was So great why does he allow death, rape, and every other sin happen? Because he want's us to see how stupid we are and viscuos we can be towards each other. One thing I can't stress the most.. God gave us a brain, use it. and God says about murderers, "send him to me and I deal with him" We have a law to convict murderers and that should be put to death, for god can deal with them. But let's us know to make a fair and right judgement.
nd people believe he does not exist cause there lives are going down hill or your homeless. God says, "If you do not work, you shall not eat". God will not help you along in life if you do not help yourself first. You can't expect god to do everything for you.
esus Christ is God... They are the same.. There are so many Christians and Catholics that do not know this. It's because they do not read the bible properly. 75% of the Christian Churchs believe there will be a rapture, that god will take all good people up with him before the Anti-Christ comes. The word "Rapture" is not even in the bible. I forgot exactly where they got this rapture theory.. But anyways...
About the beggining of time, evolution and so on. There was a 1st age before adam and eve.. That's where your dinos come from, and there were also human beings. Some of you christians are probably going "huh? It sayd Adam and eve were the first human beings?" but i'll give you the words in genesis after this. God destroyed the face on the earth, killing everything on the surface. And the big bang theory, we'll probably never know. And if there was one, More and likely god did it.
Here's the words of genesis for both Legionnaired and DOOManiac... Gonna be long, but here it is.
Genesis Chapter 1 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. "Take note that he made man and female in his image on the the fifth day"
Let's skip some versus...
Genesis Chapter 2 7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8: And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Adam and Eve were created on the 7th day.
But if you already knew, then my apologies. Not everyone studys the bible the right way like they should.
But back to everything else. Trying to read everyones posts.
Here's a quote from, Longtooth. """ prefer to look at the world with my own eyes and deciede things with my own free will, I never liked the idea of a being whom I have never seen telling me what I can and cannot do and threatening me with eternal pain if i disobey him. I also didn't like being treated like an animal where if I do what said being tells me to do I will get a cookie."""" He owns that flesh body your using right now, it's his temple, your a soul using his temple. He gave you life and created this earth and every living creature, plant and fruit. He gave us law to obey... He died for our sins... He's not threating anyone of eternal life of pain if you do not listen to him or believe in him. He warns everyone that if you do not follow his word or try too, he will erase you from the book of life and you will be no more. No you wil not goto hell or be thrown into the lake of fire either. There is no hell, hell is not even used in the bible. Satan is in heaven for you christians and catholics out there. Study and you'll find this out for yourself. And do not FORGET, that God is a forgiving God. He will forgive you if you ask for forgiveness and mean it from the heart everyday. All he asks from his children is to do your best in life and love him and only him, cause he is your father. And to read his word he has given us.
And yes, God is THE supreme being. If he wanted to take your life, he would. If he wanted to end all life, he could.
And about diffrent religions, like catholics, jews and so on. Every religion thinks some things are true and not true. Like Catholics, They where necklaces with jesus christ crucified on a cross. he doesn't want you to remember him that way. And they ask for forgiveness from a pastor/father in a box. God don't want you asking for forgiveness from another human being, cause that person isn't god, he can't forgive you for your sins. God want's you to ask him and only him. But we call this "Traditions of Men"...
And science?..... Science is good in alot of things, but people relying on science will be there downfall. Come on guys, we weren't evolved from apes. Is anyone craving for a banana? Cause i'm sure not..
But everyone has their right to believe in what they want and do whatever they want. You'll just end up paying the price when you meet your maker. Not to sound rude, but i've always felt this way, so plz forgive me. I can't wait to see the faces on all the non-believers, satan worshippers, false religions and so on, when the Anti Christ comes... Then the lord. Cause alot of people are gonna be crapping their pants and probably begging for forgiveness at the sametime.
But that's my $100 bill on this subject. Man I never posted something this long ever. My fingers are about to fall off.
Excuse my bad grammar and spelling. I've been up 2 days and I wanted to post this fast.
Jesus Christ is God... They are the same.. There are so many Christians and Catholics that do not know this. It's because they do not read the bible properly. 75% of the Christian Churchs believe there will be a rapture, that god will take all good people up with him before the Anti-Christ comes. The word "Rapture" is not even in the bible. I forgot exactly where they got this rapture theory.. But anyways... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Revelations 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
There are a few other scattered references to it too.
The man who gives all he has must rely on someone or something to provide for him, even if that be god. The man who provides for himself leaches off noone.
The man who gives all he has must rely on someone or something to provide for him, even if that be god. The man who provides for himself leaches off noone. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's hard to leach off of an omnipotent being in such a way to anger them.....
And even so, who says that the person that chooses to believe in God is weak? It's a choice we make, not someone falling and grasping for something to catch them. Sometimes it happens like that, but I know plenty of people who'se reason for accepting Christ was simply because it made sense.
I see, but you missed the point.
As far as people beleiving in christ because it makes sense:
The reason I don't beleive in christianity is because it defies all rational thought in every way possibly. But hey, I guess thats just me.
Though rationality does change with the times also.
What may be thought rational today may not be thought rational two thousand years from now, and was probably not during the time of Christ himself.
Not that I am against your views however, that's cool by me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>To each his own</i>.
Take the bible for example (only using this because it is widely known and an easy target). The bible contains many things in it that MANY people do not agree with. Like homosexuality and genocide issues. These are things that GOD himself were supposed to have the absolute perfect right answer to and yet lots of people disagree with it. It shows imperfection which GOD cannot have because the bible says he is perfect and whatnot. Also, the old and new testament GOD contradicts his views many times on different things like slavery, for example. Another thing is that many profecies and "wise" words that have been given by GOD are very broad and general and can be taken in EXTREMELY different ways. (I.E. whereas one man may say that killing heathans is GOD's work, like in the old testament, another man would say it is wrong, kind of how GOD contradicts himself by saying "thou shalt not kill"). So many would say that man has fussed up the bible by translating it and putting it into his own words. Then why base your life off a book that is imperfect? Surely GOD could not have written this book that is so **** up? Life is hard enough as it is without trying to figure out the labrynth that is organized religion.
Now, take this into consideration. If GOD is an omnipotent being, and I don't think he/she/it/ is, what if GOD knew how clumsy language is, and how different people interpreted things in different ways, and knew that the constant translation of religous scriptures would eventual erode their pure meaning. So, GOD, throughout history, produces many different religions that all have pretty much one main teaching so that people who are really seeking the truth will look at all the different scriptures from all around the world and see this one universal truth, in its pure form, and that the only way to understand it is to look at the picture as a whole and not just from one direction, not just one part.
Its very hard to do but heres a pretty universal law that if everyone followed, we would all be better off:
"Be cool to each other."
This is the message I get from reading scriptures from all different points of view be it Satanism, Occult worship, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Paganism, Buddhism, etc. and so on and so forth. Unfortunately we can't do this and that's where things get so freaking complicated.