The Dreaded Religion Thread

moultano · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Agreed. Someone had better come up with something fast.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Sooooo, any Sikhs out there?

AllUrHiveRblong2us · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And don't talk about below the belt hits. Because no matter how you slice it. Nobody is going to call a statement that tries to bring someone into a fairytale below the belt. But EVERY statement that tries to bring someone out of their fairytale will ALWAYS be "below the belt".

It's called harsh reality.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I never said I agreed with him, in fact, I find nearly every idea he poses on these forums to be against nearly every ideal I hold. But, I think he has been very good about keeping his arguments grounded and reasonable. And if you keep going the way you're going, you're gonna get modded oldschool, I predict.

moultano · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And don't talk about below the belt hits. Because no matter how you slice it. Nobody is going to call a statement that tries to bring someone into a fairytale below the belt. But EVERY statement that tries to bring someone out of their fairytale will ALWAYS be "below the belt".  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
It is possible to make this argument and do it respectfully. You have completely failed to do so.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

Let's play a game of examples......

Bringing someone into a fairytale:
"You work too hard, take a break"

Brining someone out of the fairytale:
"Get a job, all you do is sit around all day eating cheetos."

Bringing someone into a fairytale:
"You should eat more, you're too thin"

Brining someone out of the fairytale:
"If you don't stop eating you're only going to get fatter"

Bringing someone into a fairytale:
"The car accident clearly wasn't your fault"

Brining someone out of the fairytale:
"That's what happens when you're taking sips from your forty while doing 90 down the freeway"

Sure, all the "bringing someone out of the fairytale" examples could be tiptoed around. But would accomplish absolutely nothing.

And not accomplishing anything is a waste of my valuable time.

Legionnaired · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> ...not once did I EVER say "Because God said so." </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Don't detract from the point. Being widely accepted has NOTHING to do with it not being a case of "Because god said so." And if you bothered to study the Atheist argument you would know that it's widely accepted BECAUSE it's a case of "Because God said so."

And don't talk about below the belt hits. Because no matter how you slice it. Nobody is going to call a statement that tries to bring someone into a fairytale below the belt. But EVERY statement that tries to bring someone out of their fairytale will ALWAYS be "below the belt".

It's called harsh reality. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Alright, I'll dance.

I believe that there is a God because of the sheer complexity of the world around me. The fibonnacii sequence apearing in nature, among other things. However, of the most compelling arguments for a God would be the argument for morality. For instance, in every culture, there is an underlying sense of right and wrong. As you said, "be cool to each other." Such a thing doesn't present itself in natural selection, as the alpha male, the one who takes the most is the one who usually the one who reproduces the most, and hence, is selected to go on. He who gives up his food, or doesn't rape, or steal, is the one who usually dies first in a stressful situation, such as famine.

So, I'm not convinced that evolution could bring about the civilization that we see today. Thus, I believe in some form of creationism, and thus, I believe in a God.

So, then we get into thinking about wether we are just ignorant (Eastern Religion) or, if we've done something wrong, and aren't cool with God anymore (Western Religion). If we were cool with God, then everything we'd ask would probably be granted, because hey, God's our dawg.

Now, one would think that after two or three re-incarnations, one would catch on to what was going on, and escape it, or become a snail. Eastern religion didn't make sense to me. If you're not convinced, I have a friend who'se father is teaching a class on other religions. Most of them, once you start studying them, get really wierd. Too bad my schedule conflicts with the class.

In any case, we're down to the big three. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Now, Islam teaches salvation by works, and Judaism teaches salvation by following the law. As, I think, moultano mentioned, there is a sacrifical system in place for Judaism that allows for the repayment of sins. However, you have to ask yourself if the death of this lamb is really going to pay for everything you've done wrong. Sure, the lamb has not done wrong, but the lamb is not capable of doing wrong. Thus, why is it's death significant, and how can it allow God to forgive me?

Now, for Islam, it centers around doing works, fulfilling conditions. At this point, you really have to ask yourself- "If God really has beef with me, then is going to a city, praying 5 times a day, fasting, and giving to charity really going to make me cool with him again? I mean, I'm under the assumption that I've seriously wronged him, in some way. Is doing earthly things really going to matter to Him, in all his super-natural greatness? My answer was, no.

So, were left with Christ. The son of God, who was perfect, but obviously had the capacity to not be. Who dies as a scapegoat for our sins, but had the capacity not too. Who willingly laid his life down, so that we wouldn't have to feel the pain of His Daddy's judgement. There is no greater love, then laying your life down for another, I believe that. And I believe that the only way that a God, who we have wronged, who we must make atonement to, is going to forgive us, is if he truely loves us enough to provide a way for forgiveness.

That's why I believe in God, and that's why I accepted Christ as my personal savior, and that's why I've argued about this for a good 11 pages. Because I believe it, with every fiber of my being, it <i>makes sense</i> to me that Jesus died for me. Out of greatfullness, that's why I write this. If He took the holy bullet meant for me, maybe I can do what I can to make my life the most it can be for Him. That's why I talk to my friends about Him, and why I study His word.

And there you go. Why I became a Christian, with not a biblical passage, or "God said so" anywhere.

Moult, thanks for doing what you can to keep this discussion sane.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

ok, now we're getting somewhere.

Fibanacci (or however you spell it) numbers: Pure statistical analysis dictates that if you were to study infinitely many things for a pattern. Some percentage of those things will be *whatever* you're looking for. And even 0.0000001% of infinity is a lot of stuff.

Morals: There are certain species in the world that follow the alpha male philosophy and some that follow communal social structures. And monkeys followed communal social structures. One can study the evolution of society and follow that in the early days when man first start farming that only a very small percentage of time was freed up due to community. But nonetheless it was more free time than people had had before farming hit the scene. And we all know that most people will take the easy route in life if it present's itself. Compound this communal farming structure for a couple hundred years and you're bound to find more and more ways to make life easier by helping eachother. I'm not saying that there weren't plenty of societies that fell into the dust because all they did to help each other was farm and not abstain from rape and murder. But the more you study the evolution of society you find that more and more people can survive in a group that has an abundance of resources. The fact that society existed was the cause of an evolutionary change in this case.

Now, we all know that almost every creature in the wild learns most of how to survive from it's parents or parent. a literal case of "Monkey see, monkey do."

The sheer number of people brought up in a communal farming society would annihilate all other ways of living in short order. Similar to how introducing new elements to an ecosystem can result in a population explosion.

I may not have made complete sense there. But I think I get my point across. The nature of how successful evolutions dominate regions would in fact create morals. And you can always find a pattern in any chaos if you look hard enough.

Onuma · February 2003

You callin' me a monkey? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Yes, your points make sense and I understand what you're getting at.

moultano · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 09:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I believe that there is a God because of the sheer complexity of the world around me. The fibonnacii sequence apearing in nature, among other things.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Interestingly enough, this is one of the reasons that some people view the world as a mathematical construct. Its a fascinating subject.
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>However, of the most compelling arguments for a God would be the argument for morality. For instance, in every culture, there is an underlying sense of right and wrong. As you said, "be cool to each other." Such a thing doesn't present itself in natural selection, as the alpha male, the one who takes the most is the one who usually the one who reproduces the most, and hence, is selected to go on. He who gives up his food, or doesn't rape, or steal, is the one who usually dies first in a stressful situation, such as famine.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> I've heard one idea about this which I found interesting. It basically said that in a social species, the evolutionary victor is that which is most social.

Relating to the bit about the fibonnaci numbers, I think there is a bit here that we can all agree on. No matter what perspective you view the world from, be it physics, mathematics, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, or anything else, the world exhibits an incredible inner harmony. It twist and turns away from every attempt to grasp it fully, and in the process only reveals more of its beauty.

. . .

<someone holds up a lighter here and says duuuuude> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Moult, thanks for doing what you can to keep this discussion sane.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Anytime.

Legionnaired · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm not saying that there weren't plenty of societies that fell into the dust because all they did to help each other was farm and not abstain from rape and murder. But the more you study the evolution of society you find that more and more people can survive in a group that has an abundance of resources. The fact that society existed was the cause of an evolutionary change in this case.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Ahh, intelligence once more. My brain feels better.

Alright, assuming that morals were just a defence mechanism, evolved to help us create more rescources, one would assume that a "Best Fit" morality would soon evolve itself. For instance, there would be a region that would have the most loving, caring, and wholesome people that could be thought up. However, this is not so. In out particular society, for instance, there is honor in fighting for a cause. WWII veterans are honored and respected, and those who die for someone else are revered, this is true. However, what of lying? There is no clear-cut argument for when it is OK and not OK to lie. Lying to a friend usually leads to a cessation of that friendship, and lying to a co-worker can lead to being fired. But lying to soldiers, as they look for political prisoners to execute? Again, we're bordering on the realm of honorable here.

Such relative things appear everywhere you look. Stealing from a widow? Bad. Stealing from a warlord to feed a family? Honorable again. So, who is to say what is right, and what is wrong? If we do what is right for ourselves, then we violate the evolutionary marality argument, and the corrupt rule again. If we do what is right for others, then evenutally, we're going to get caught, and our caring genes aren't going to be passed on. Who is to say what is right, and what is wrong? Maybe someone who created this whole mess?

kida · February 2003

gg

AllUrHiveRblong2us · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Relating to the bit about the fibonnaci numbers, I think there is a bit here that we can all agree on. No matter what perspective you view the world from, be it physics, mathematics, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, or anything else, the world exhibits an incredible inner harmony. It twist and turns away from every attempt to grasp it fully, and in the process only reveals more of its beauty.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Please do not ever use the words "physics" and "harmony" in the same sentence again.

All physics does is reveal how very chaotic the universe is on it's most fundamental of scales.

moultano · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 24 2003, 10:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Please do not ever use the words "physics" and "harmony" in the same sentence again.

All physics does is reveal how very chaotic the universe is on it's most fundamental of scales.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Spoken with characteristic belligerence. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Pretty much every Physics major you talk to will disagree. That's why most of them go into it. Chaos and harmony needn't be diametrically opposed ideas.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

I'm not going to go into full detail about things like honor. Because honestly I can't truly *prove* the origins of honor. But you have to admit that in most of your examples of good and bad, the good and bad can still be traced back to good for a community and bad for a community. Stealing from a warlord cripples him which makes him less of a threat. Stealing from a widow doesn't make her less of a threat. But that widow is a female figure, and everyone has a female figure they can transpose onto that widow.

Now, I do make the concession to you that more than a few of today's morals ARE based on Bible teachings. That is undisputable fact. But I'm not disputing that the Bible exists, I'm not disputing that it doesn't teach *some* good things. I'm disputing the SOURCE of those teachings before they were written in said Bible.

Not to make the direct correlation between Christianity and some crazy cult. But you have to admit that *creating* a religion and getting people to believe in the religion is the 100% best way to get the masses to conform to your teachings and ideals. In the end you don't have to teach the people that the rules of the religion are right. Only that they will suffer some horrible consequence if they do not follow them. I guarantee that if you scare someone enough, you can bestow ANY set of morals upon them that you wish. Now, you obviously can't scare someone with something they don't believe in. But I believe that the easiest way to get people to believe something is to present it as pure, 100% fact. And as we all know, people are unable to accept 2 contradicting views as both being fact. So why not make all the facts derive from completely unanswerable questions ? I'm betting that's EXACTLY what these people thought of.

So, I bet you're now thinking to yourself.... "If the question is unanswerable, then these new facts could really be true." and to be honest, that's something I can't dispute. BUT, The core of the Atheist belief is that it's much more likely to not be true than it is to be true.

So, to summarize.... Yes, some morals do have origins in religious teachings. But I'm stating that it is much more likely that the religious teachings are part of a larger plan of controlling the masses.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

and just to expand on my last post of how it's much more likely in the Atheist belief that there is no god than there is a god.

Here's the exact set of events that led to my newfound Atheist life back in like 8th grade.

This thought popped in my head.

"I believe in a christian god. That means that buddhists, romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians, and a whole slew of other people are wrong. The buddhists believe I am wrong. The romans/greeks believe I am wrong. The vikings believe I am wrong. The egyptians believe I am wrong. With so many *wrong* religions, how can I say that mine is any more correct than anyone else's ?"

and BAM, there it was, Atheism staring me right in the face.

and for those people out there that are going to say that all religions are correct as long as you believe in one. That's just hoaky. You fear your own death and you know it.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

and for the "God touched my life personally" argument.....

People believe a lot of things that aren't real.

I seriously believe that I have very small telekinetic powers (no joke, 100% serious). Nobody in this world can convince me otherwise. I have witnessed it firsthand. But that doesn't mean it still couldn't be random chance and my own desire to believe I'm telekinetic.

The brain is an amazingly complex and mysterious thing.

kida · February 2003

All ur hive that was a very arrogant remark, any dumb#### (me lol) can tell you that physics is the study of the interaction of energy and matter and that it trys to explain the cosmos, which is the direct antonymn of chaos and defined as:

1. The universe regarded as an orderly, harmonious whole.
2. An ordered, harmonious whole.
3. Harmony and order as distinct from chaos.
4. pl. cos·mos·es or cosmos Any of various mostly Mexican herbs of the genus Cosmos in the composite family, having radiate flower heads of variously colored flowers and opposite pinnate leaves, especially C. bipinnatus and C. sulphureus, widely cultivated as garden annuals.
5. The order of things.

It may reveal the chaotic side effects of supernova, if that is what you are refering to.

ONE word why I believe God exists bar none.

Design

[WHO]Them · February 2003

ahhhh, but it can also be argued that there is no design at all.

Although random chance for such a planet could seem like a stretch. If one realizes that if the randomization takes place all over the universe and that we are only here to witness an area that has already come into harmony, then one can realize that if we were to travel to far off stars we would see a complete and total lack of beauty in the universe. Just failure after failure after failure.

So just because we are here to witness such a great thing such as the earth doesn't mean it wasn't completely random. Because if the earth was not so stable, we would not have evolved to witness it.

moultano · February 2003

I agree personally with the random chance bit.

This is a somewhat unrelated question.

[WHO]Then, is there anything in the universe that fills you with awe?

[WHO]Them · February 2003

yes, going 110mph on my motorcycle fills me with excitement.

that's about as close to perfect bliss as I get. Everything else is just a cheap knockoff <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

reminiscing about the few times that I have actually done this and thinking about what mankind has achieved to let me do such things is truly awe inspiring in me.

moultano · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> yes, going 110mph on my motorcycle fills me with excitement.

that's about as close to perfect bliss as I get. Everything else is just a cheap knockoff <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

reminiscing about the few times that I have actually done this and thinking about what mankind has achieved to let me do such things is truly awe inspiring in me. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
whatever works for you. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I must confess that this wasn't at all what I was expecting.
I was thinking that it might help make it seem more reasonable if you view religion in those terms.

kida · February 2003

rofl haha, really? is that the max?

Anyways-

The overall design and order of the universe is what I meant. For all of this to be of random happening, like random chance, is quite hard to swallow like it is for you to believe in the existence of God. But I guess for any subject there are two arguements that follow. I do not want to get into the logistics of all the physics involved with space and time, since I am nowhere near that age to learn the knowledge involved, but one can grasp the fundamental ideas of how these work without the Hawking genious, i gue----sss.

There is a common scientific observation that points to design within galaxy clusters across the universe. These clusters are arranged in fansy knots showing a ribbon like swirl pattern across the immense universe. If you consider the universe to be in "order", as most people agree, meaning that stars, planets, and cells have stages and cycles from its creation to its death then you can say that the universe is for a fact in order, because it does follow logic, orders, and laws, otherwise how could they have been created? For example: cell production follows an order (DNA), there had to be some pattern of intelligence- "traveling its information" involved, especially in living organisims. *Generally,* there is design in everything, in stars, in planet creation, and etc. Design doesn't necessarily have to follow a redundant pattern, but it is brought forth through what I have mentioned above. In order for a structure to remain a structure, like a planet or building it must have a design. Design can mean a variant of things, but it won't be ordered to bluntly follow the same design again and again, because that design could change to suit a certain job. If one looks at a beautiful snowflake, it can obviously be pointed out that their is design and that it follows order, but not one are exactly alike. The snowflakes could change in shape or size due to weather, location, and so forth. Considering that planets, stars and galaxies may be of different sizes, it can be noted that they are not created through random spasms, but rather through a cycle of life and death. Stars are created from the gases of dead stars and planets are caused by the latter. . Not one single human is identical to another (except twins); almost everything natural is not identical in appearance; stars contain different properties of hydrogen and metals and so do humans and plants. They follow a process which has design and their uniqueness is due to their different properties inside.

You could literally go on forever with this.

What I am saying, that is if have not yet deciphered the krap mentioned above is that design is not always ordered to follow an identical process of pattern and creation. All processes are unique in the circle of creation, due to an evolutionary state of being that was ordered (I assume).

AllUrHiveRblong2us · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 24 2003, 10:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Please do not ever use the words "physics" and "harmony" in the same sentence again.

All physics does is reveal how very chaotic the universe is on it's most fundamental of scales. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Spoken with characteristic belligerence. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Pretty much every Physics major you talk to will disagree. That's why most of them go into it. Chaos and harmony needn't be diametrically opposed ideas.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Maybe it's just me, but I consider things happening for ABOLUTELY NO REASON(happens all the time on very small scales) and us being unable to know where anything is when we are not directly measuring it, and even when we are measuring it, only knowing one of it's speed/location traits chaotic. Maybe it's just me though.

Now, don't get me wrong, this stuff still has to follow certain rules, but if you put chaos in a box, it's still chaos, but in a box.

kida · February 2003

yes, everybody has an opinion, if that is yours then <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> rawwr

Bogglesteinsky · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and just to expand on my last post of how it's much more likely in the Atheist belief that there is no god than there is a god.

Here's the exact set of events that led to my newfound Atheist life back in like 8th grade.

This thought popped in my head.

"I believe in a christian god. That means that buddhists, romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians, and a whole slew of other people are wrong. The buddhists believe I am wrong. The romans/greeks believe I am wrong. The vikings believe I am wrong. The egyptians believe I am wrong. With so many *wrong* religions, how can I say that mine is any more correct than anyone else's ?"

and BAM, there it was, Atheism staring me right in the face.

and for those people out there that are going to say that all religions are correct as long as you believe in one. That's just hoaky. You fear your own death and you know it.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
But surely, saying that God doesn't exist, is as much a statement of faith as saying he does?

and besides, if you refuse to believe in any God, then everyone will think you are wrong: the Buddhists, the romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians and that whole slew of other people, as well as the christians.
at least by believing in one God, you have some people who agree with you.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ my belief why athieism is wrong

say what you wish.

Euoplocephalus · February 2003

[WHO]Them, I've been reading over this thread and I think a point you may be missing is that whether or God(s) exsist it isn't wrong to belive in them (assuming you don't run around killing/rapeing/F4ing/etc. in the name of your religion). Religion fufills the same role as science does; it helps people understand the world around them. And it also has the added bonus of providing a framework for making good moral and ethical choices.

While I'm not advocating you convert to my religion (Chirstianity for the most part), I think that accepting religion as something beyond a "fairytale" might be something to consider. Maybe when I die I'll find that God doesn't not exsist, or maybe my God is the wrong one and those ancient Egyptians were right, but so what? My faith will have helped me get though this world in a way that at least hasn't hurt my fellow man. If your atheism does the same, or anyother part of your life, more power to you. If not, maybe religon still has something on you.

On a more humorous note(please don't take offense at this, none is intended) if I still followed my phliosphy from eighth grade(probably for me a moral and inteligence lowpoint in my life) , I'd be advocating the nuking of not only Iraq, and South Korea, but also France and Germany......God, I was xenophobic back them. I must say that you seem to have been a somewhat more rational youth than me (even if I don't agree with you). <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

[WHO]Them · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and besides, if you refuse to believe in any God, then everyone will think you are wrong: the Buddhists, the romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians and that whole slew of other people, as well as the christians.
at least by believing in one God, you have some people who agree with you.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

grrrrrrrr. You don't follow my argument at all. If I were to pick a god then I would have to devote a portion of my life to that god. And I find that to be an incredible waste of time for the sole purpose of "playing it safe."

And stating that a god is a made up fictious person is less based on faith and more based on the factual history of mankind's tendency to make things up.

Bogglesteinsky · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 25 2003, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and besides, if you refuse to believe in any God, then everyone will think you are wrong: the Buddhists, the romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians and that whole slew of other people, as well as the christians.
at least by believing in one God, you have some people who agree with you.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

grrrrrrrr. You don't follow my argument at all. If I were to pick a god then I would have to devote a portion of my life to that god. And I find that to be an incredible waste of time for the sole purpose of "playing it safe."

And stating that a god is a made up fictious person is less based on faith and more based on the factual history of mankind's tendency to make things up.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
but surely, wasting a few years of your life 'playing it safe' is much much better than spending the rest of eternity paying for the consequences of a few years of fun?

CallMessiah · February 2003

I can tell you plain and simple why I cannot follow any organized or not so organized religion. I just read trough Legionaired's last posts and if there ever was a chance of me converting back to christianity that would probably have been it. The last long post he made without the use of biblical quotations was probably the most reasonable explanation I have heard so far.
The one thing I found out reading his post however is the fact that I simply cannot believe. I am a non believer. Not because I want to, but somehow within me lies the knowledge that is not the truth I can accept or believe.
To be honest and without trying to be sarcastic, I think the chance of magic reapearing ind the year 2011 and creatures from Fantasy arising from old ages is higher than the chance that there is a god in the christian (enter other commonly known religion here) sense. Again, this is completely serious. I just cannot believe that.
I don't know why, as I have quite an imagination, believe in the chance of physic powers and magic, extrateretrial life and many other strane things. I just cannot believe in god.
Take that as you will, guess this thread helped me come to this conclusion. Thanks everybody, carry on.

[WHO]Them · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Feb 26 2003, 03:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 25 2003, 01:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>and besides, if you refuse to believe in any God, then everyone will think you are wrong: the Buddhists, the romans/greeks, vikings, egyptians and that whole slew of other people, as well as the christians.
at least by believing in one God, you have some people who agree with you.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

grrrrrrrr. You don't follow my argument at all. If I were to pick a god then I would have to devote a portion of my life to that god. And I find that to be an incredible waste of time for the sole purpose of "playing it safe."

And stating that a god is a made up fictious person is less based on faith and more based on the factual history of mankind's tendency to make things up. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
but surely, wasting a few years of your life 'playing it safe' is much much better than spending the rest of eternity paying for the consequences of a few years of fun? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
please think about your posts a little more before actually tacking them onto the thread....

You made the concession in your post before the one quoted that a lot of people believe in other things and that to them you would be wrong. So I assume you understand that any religion you pick could very well be wrong.

So let's play a game of statistics over whether "Playing it safe" where religion is concerned is actually playing it safe at all.

In this post I'm going to make some assumptions, but I feel that they are reasonable assumptions.

let's say that the 10 biggest religions(regardless of time constraints) have among them a 90% chance of being right. And let's say that all the other religions in the world combined have a 10% chance of being right. Now, since there are so many smaller religions lumped together into the 10%, your chances are infintesimally small of being right if you pick one. So let's just consider picking a smaller one to be flat out wrong under all circumstances.

Now, let's assume that all of the "big 10" have an equal chance of being correct. Now, if you take 90% and divide it by 10 u get 9%, that means that even if you pick one of the big 10 that you still have a 91% chance of "going to hell" or whatever punsihment comes with the correct religion.

Even Las Vegas gives better odds than 9% on almost everything except "big jackpots". But we all know that if any one of us tried for a big jackpot with even our entire paycheck we wouldn't win.

So, you say that paying out several years worth of my short time on this planet is worth a 9% chance of winning ? I say you don't know the value of your life on this earth.

Now, for people like Legionairred that have thought about this a bit, I give them much better odds (Still not odds that I'd personally gamble with mind you). But you have suggested that I simply pick at random.

I have respect for agnostics (people that say there is a higher power but believe there is no possible way to determine what it is) as well as people that have made a conscious choice to actively follow a religion. But people that follow one simply because they think it's in the "Life" handbook are the ones that really get on my nerves.

Legionnaired · February 2003

Religion isn't something that you put all your possible choices on a dartboard, and whatever you hit is what you will believe for teh rest of your life. It's not something you use to "play it safe," either.

Otherwise, you could say: "I' m hindu-bhuddist-islamic, but I believe that the God of the Bible is the bestest one, because of the first commandment... Now I go to heaven! Woo!"

Religion is something you <i>feel</i>. I know it sounds all cheap and network-TVish, but bear with me. As much as you rationalize religion, and practice it, and say all your prayers and eat all your bread and wine, if you don't feel it, or believe it, or hold it dear to your heart, then you have to ask yourself if you believe that at all, or if you are just going through the motions. That's my personal belief, that someone like the personal savior found in the bible would want his teachings, and his sacrifice, and all the other good stuff that goes with it not to go in through your head, but to hit you in your heart. To convict you, to guide you, to pick you up, and to humble you, all these things must be done with the heart, and not with the head. I <i>know</i> that the girl down the street is just going to be my friend, and I <i>know</i> that relationship is going to be better in teh long run, but if you don't accept that as the truth, if you don't act on it, if you don't feel it, then that knowledge is completely, utterly worthless.

I think God feels the same way.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ( 1 Corinthians 13:1-3)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And WHO, this is something you have to take on blind faith <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>; that no matter how much you can rationalize and <i>know</i>, it's moot if you can't consider it, act on it, and in general just feel it as true.

That's the reason why I'm not upset, or discouraged by your post, 1800-Messiah. I don't know, or know of a single person who has ever come to know Christ over the internet. I don't think I ever will. It's just too impersonal, it's too cold, and there's absolutely no human contact there. I could be a 6 year old girl, or a 60 year old male minister, or Billy Ghram, or Usama Bin Laden, or George Dubya, and none of you would ever know. Jesus didn't sit on the top of a hill and heal people from above, He went to them, He loved them, and He reached out and touched them. Now, I'm certainly not the Son of God, and there's no way I can heal people with the touch, but whatever message I give, or profess, is dampened and made inhuman by thousands of miles of copper wiring, and that sucks. Because the only way that someone will ever have a serious change in their thinking and feeling towards God would be if someone got into their life, and showed them what the love of Christ really is. That's how it worked with me, that's how it worked with the people I've brought around, and that's how it's worked with my Christian friends. Someone got into their lives, and were a conducter for the Holy Spirt. Only flesh and blood can conduct that, not copper and fiber optics.

I don't know if you can ever prove or disprove the idea of a God, I really don't. You can't ever really completely prove or disprove the bible, despite it's thousands of historically correct stories and prophecies, they could just be really good forcasters. As it is written: </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ( 1 Corinthians 1:17-21)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

You can't ever prove or disprove that Christ was the Son of God, unless you saw him rise from the grave, and if you really want to get trippy, none of you will ever be able to prove that I even exist, I could just be a really, really 1337 AI program. Human means cannot, and probably will never, be able to answer those questions. For those are not won in a library, or a laboratory, but in the hearts of flesh-and-blood people.

Don't rule out God because you can't feel it Messiah, I don't expect you to be able too. But at one point in your life, mark my words, someone will ask you out to a Church service, or a bible study, or a prayer meeting. That's where you'll feel it, 1800, when you are in fellowship with those who believe.

The Dreaded Religion Thread

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