So let's play a game of statistics over whether "Playing it safe" where religion is concerned is actually playing it safe at all.
In this post I'm going to make some assumptions, but I feel that they are reasonable assumptions.
let's say that the 10 biggest religions(regardless of time constraints) have among them a 90% chance of being right. And let's say that all the other religions in the world combined have a 10% chance of being right. Now, since there are so many smaller religions lumped together into the 10%, your chances are infintesimally small of being right if you pick one. So let's just consider picking a smaller one to be flat out wrong under all circumstances.
Now, let's assume that all of the "big 10" have an equal chance of being correct. Now, if you take 90% and divide it by 10 u get 9%, that means that even if you pick one of the big 10 that you still have a 91% chance of "going to hell" or whatever punsihment comes with the correct religion.
Even Las Vegas gives better odds than 9% on almost everything except "big jackpots". But we all know that if any one of us tried for a big jackpot with even our entire paycheck we wouldn't win.
So, you say that paying out several years worth of my short time on this planet is worth a 9% chance of winning ? I say you don't know the value of your life on this earth.
Now, for people like Legionairred that have thought about this a bit, I give them much better odds (Still not odds that I'd personally gamble with mind you). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a small logic flaw with this argument, although I do see the point your trying to get at. The problem is if you play you have a 9% chance of "winning" your way into heaven . But if you don't play at all you are automaticly damned (assuming of course that there is in fact a correct religion). That is also working under the premise that if you live a "good" life, yet pick the wrong religon, you are automaticly damned. I personaly have never bought that.
I'm my mind being a Christian means living be the teachings of the bible, specifical the teachings of Christ. Prehaps I'm oversimplifing, but to me on of the most important themes in Christ's teachings was forgiveness. If Jesus teachs forgiveness, I don't see how someone who has lived a virtuos life, by the standards in the biblle, except they happened to pray to Vishnu or which ever God instead, could possibly be damned.
Wow I just relised that I completely defeated my point here.....by my last standard [Who]'s argument is validated, if you can get into heaven by living a good life no matter whom you worship why worship any God (s) at all? Well, I sure didn't intend to discredit him completely by any means. I don't agree with him that religon is a waste of time, but I do respect that he is able to back up his opinion .
Anyways I guess what I'm trying to say is, in my opinion, how you live your life is more important than choseing the "right " God, or lack there of. If you notice many, I'd hazard most, major religions have very similair rules of how to live; Don't kill, Don't decieve, Respect and Help your fellow man, etc. They may say it diffrent ways, but the themes are consistant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->people that follow one simply because they think it's in the "Life" handbook are the ones that really get on my nerves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine too....nothing pisses me off more than someone who says they are Christians, go to church every Sunday (I personaly don't attend church, but my reasons for not would be a whole nother posts worth), but don't consistantly live by the strictures in the Bible, and can't give a good reason why they are Chirstians. Its as if they are simply because their parents started taking them to church from a young age, and it's easier not to think about it.
I feel blessed that my parents decided to raise me and my brother with out religion. It allowed me to make choices about what I belive when I was ready to, to really think about it. There is a point where you need blind faith, but in my opinion blindly beliving in God and Heaven, doesn't mean you should think about <i>what</i> you are beliving in. I had a hard time reconciling the good I found in the bible with some of the ways it has been used, and some of the ways the church interpretes it today. I ended up rejecting the church in favor of my interpretation of the Bible.
Well, My rambling doesn't seem to be coming to any point, so I'll just close here. I think what I was trying to get at is that religion is to personal a thing to not think about, or for any one person to be able to get it right for others.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm my mind being a Christian means living be the teachings of the bible, specifical the teachings of Christ. Prehaps I'm oversimplifing, but to me on of the most important themes in Christ's teachings was forgiveness. If Jesus teachs forgiveness, I don't see how someone who has lived a virtuos life, by the standards in the biblle, except they happened to pray to Vishnu or which ever God instead, could possibly be damned. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What standard? That of men, or that of Christ.
That of men, yes, we can live up to and surpass, this is true. But men are not judged against other men, men are judged against God. He's willing to forgive you, that's why he died on the cross for you while you were still a sinner, to take the pain of judgement for you.
Grace means that no matter what you've done, you are saved if you ask and believe. The fact that you've done good in your life deosn't change the fact that by being human, it's in your nature to commit sins, and you've committed them. A rusty car with chrome on it is still a rusty car. A rusty car with LOTS of chrome on it is a shiny rusty car, but it doesn't change the fact that the car is still rusty.
The thing that has to be believed is that everyone has fallen short of the glory that is God, and to get there, to get to Him, the things you've done to get you in the place you're in have to be paid for. You can do it, or Jesus can do it, the choice is up to you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 26 2003, 08:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 26 2003, 08:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That's the reason why I'm not upset, or discouraged by your post, 1800-Messiah. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, first off, I was in no way trying to upset or discourage you, sorry if it sounded like that. I appreciate hearing the opinion of someone who has actually thought about his believes a LOT.
Then again you said yourself that religion is something you have to feel. When you truly believe you jsut know that it is right and you can feel it with your whole being. This is just something that I cannot say about myself. I might try to live by the biblical teachings or think that I believe as much as I want to, but that does not make me a true believer, it would rather make me one of those people who say they are part of a religion, but didn't think much about it during their life. I think we both do not like these kind of people very much.
Concerning the fact that the internet is somewhat cold, when it comes to things that should touch your heart, I guess that is true. It is always easier being of a certain mood or attitude when you have only the screen to look at. You can easily say things, when you don't have to look in someone's eyes. Then again, many arguments do not come over as powerful as they would face to face because all the mimics and gestures are lost, the tone someone uses. Face to face conversations, especially arguments, live from rethoric.
I am not saying that I will turn from religion forever, you never know, when it hits you, but about the part in being in a fellowship with people who are emotionally involved: You always achieve feelings like that, when a large crowd of people is really "into" something, like for example in a concert. Large crowds always convey emotions rather well. Anyway, ride on!
Your all right, religion isn't something to argue about like science, it is something you have to experience and love.
Has anyone heard of limbo? Catholics ( they are denomination of Christianity) believe that if you lived a good life, meaning you didn't rob a bank or kill someone, and have basic morals including guilt, but did not Believe In Jesus or God, you would be sent to a place called limbo. It is a place neither hell nor heaven.
Yeah, its called this thing called "Purgatory" an idea thats not backed by any evidence in the Bible whatsoever. It was basically an idea for the church to get money in the middle ages and no one really bothered dropping it.
Right, basicly the idea is that you go there, pay for your sins, but aren't sent to hell, so one day, after enough people pray for you and such, you can get into heaven. As crisgo said, really no biblical backing (that I'm aware of, anyway). Kind of goes up there with the Catholic idea of patron saints. It's just kind of there.
1800-Messiah : Usually when someone tells me that they've rejected what I believe to be true, it does upset me a little. Not personally, I'm assured in my beliefs, I just kind of worry what will happen to those other people.
Just remember, just because you don't feel it now, doesn't mean that you wont be touched by it's love later.
I once was foolish enough that words alone were enough to convince; and they obviously aren't.
I think at the time, the image gnawed at me that there seemed to be so many charismatic debators who pointed out what seemed to be so many cracks in Christianity. The foolhardy lad I was, I thought that I could somehow change the views of others with words. Just plain words. And the end result was just plain nothing. The fact comes now that debating should simply be for a place for the exchange of ideas, as well as for fun. It's a bad place to pour emotions into, cause no one ever sees those emotions, and they are wasted.
So now, I treat debate simply for leisure... or at least I'll be back in action after I live through the average "teen crisis" that everyone has been through before; it's vacuumed up most of my energy; and my current stance with Christianity isn't what it usually is, (I guess this part of my life is usually the time where most people get hit with some sort of revelation much like [WHO]'s, and it's a big factor as to whether you decide to go over the speed bump, or take a U-turn).
I've been a bit desensitized from all my convoluted thoughts, so I don't really feel any emotions at this point; neither happy, angry, for sad: just plain neutral, (although I can gurantee you that this "phase" is far from finished, and I'll be headed back to the unstable wave emotions sometime in the near future). I've found keeping a journal (xanga.com) seems to help with the stress, (directing a portion of your violence at a pocket of the Internet), and it should make for entertaining reads when I finally get the hell out of this stage and laugh at the petty quibbles that somehow managed to make me collapse God knows how many times to the point I just wanted to self-destruct so that this tug-of-war between God and Satan would end with no winners, (still feel this way at times though).
I believe that the name of the religion you follow has absolutely no control over your fate or whether or not you're damned.
I might be wrong about some of these, I dont know that much about what different religions believe in. Islam, Christian, are almost exactly the same in terms of what is written in The Bible and The Koran. You are to love each other, and be friends and appreciate and live in the creation of your god, whether or not his name is God, or Allah. You are hindu, you believe in the god's creation of the world, and are to live in and respect their world as you love one another, you are bhuddist, same thing. If anything, religion was invented by cave men who didnt have science, and resorted to religion instead. What it grew to be over time was a creed that tried to make the world a better, loving place, for it was the wish if your god(s). If god(s) do exist, then I dont believe that there are different ones that have power over their people, its all the same at the top, there is a force in the universe that influences the world in different names, and to everyone its all about care and virtue. You dont burn in hell if you think your god's name is something else, thats immoral, which is really against what religion is all about.
Yeah, thats also why theres that group of people that want to rewrite The Bible, that book has some pretty **** up stuff in it
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I believe that the name of the religion you follow has absolutely no control over your fate or whether or not you're damned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually....
John 3:16-18 16 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and <b>whosover believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.</b> 17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.</b>
In other words...trust in Christ to take you, or else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Islam, Christian, are almost exactly the same in terms of what is written in The Bible and The Koran. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the big difference that Christians believe that heaven is achieved through Christ, not Mohommad (or however its spelt.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anything, religion was invented by cave men who didnt have science, and resorted to religion instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If religion was something that was "made up" then that means Jesus wasn't God's Son which therefore meant that He couldn't have done all His cool miracles. What do you think compelled Jesus' disciples and follows to keep with Him? The miracles. After Jesus' death His disciples should have been like "Well....That was a waste of time, let's go back to fishing or something." But no. They stuck with Jesus. In fact, after Jesus came back from the dead and told the disciples about baptizing all nations and such, they did, and they died for it. <u>Who in their right minds would die for a lie?</u>
Speaking of lies, how long does it take a lie to undue itself? A few days? months? Maybe even a few years if it was a really good one. Lies do NOT last 2000 years with 1 billion people believing its the truth.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If religion was something that was "made up" then that means Jesus wasn't God's Son which therefore meant that He couldn't have done all His cool miracles. What do you think compelled Jesus' disciples and follows to keep with Him? The miracles. After Jesus' death His disciples should have been like "Well....That was a waste of time, let's go back to fishing or something." But no. They stuck with Jesus. In fact, after Jesus came back from the dead and told the disciples about baptizing all nations and such, they did, and they died for it. <u>Who in their right minds would die for a lie?</u> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies.
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 27 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 27 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If religion was something that was "made up" then that means Jesus wasn't God's Son which therefore meant that He couldn't have done all His cool miracles. What do you think compelled Jesus' disciples and follows to keep with Him? The miracles. After Jesus' death His disciples should have been like "Well....That was a waste of time, let's go back to fishing or something." But no. They stuck with Jesus. In fact, after Jesus came back from the dead and told the disciples about baptizing all nations and such, they did, and they died for it. <u>Who in their right minds would die for a lie?</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A lie, spanning 66 works and millenia, while still able to be conclusive and true to itself, and the history around it?
Okay Im not a Xtian nor am I going to get to deeply involved with this conversation but......the Xtian bible is not supposed to prove anything to anyone. Faith not facts is what determines whether or not a person believes in God or not. Faith not facts. A believer does not need facts to prove the existence of God as they have thier faith and that itself is enough. Well it is supposed to be enough if they are true believers.
Nah, there is a really good book called "More than a carpenter" that does a really good job of proving the Bible as 100% true...somoene should go buy/read it.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 27 2003, 03:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 27 2003, 03:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 27 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 27 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If religion was something that was "made up" then that means Jesus wasn't God's Son which therefore meant that He couldn't have done all His cool miracles. What do you think compelled Jesus' disciples and follows to keep with Him? The miracles. After Jesus' death His disciples should have been like "Well....That was a waste of time, let's go back to fishing or something." But no. They stuck with Jesus. In fact, after Jesus came back from the dead and told the disciples about baptizing all nations and such, they did, and they died for it. <u>Who in their right minds would die for a lie?</u> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A lie, spanning 66 works and millenia, while still able to be conclusive and true to itself, and the history around it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> basically, yes.
It's not as if some of the lies in the Bible are hard to spot. One big one: the Bible claims that God exists.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 28 2003, 12:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 28 2003, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nah, there is a really good book called "More than a carpenter" that does a really good job of proving the Bible as 100% true...somoene should go buy/read it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My point being that if you go around trying to prove that the Xtian bible is factual then you lack faith.
<!--QuoteBegin--Teufel Eldritch+Feb 27 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teufel Eldritch @ Feb 27 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay Im not a Xtian nor am I going to get to deeply involved with this conversation but......the Xtian bible is not supposed to prove anything to anyone. Faith not facts is what determines whether or not a person believes in God or not. Faith not facts. A believer does not need facts to prove the existence of God as they have thier faith and that itself is enough. Well it is supposed to be enough if they are true believers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To prove to himself? No, of course not, then they have their faith. But to other people, like AllurHive, who believe that this is a load of crap?
I still think that serving and loving people is the best way of showing God, though, not facts, so I'll keep doing that. However, to each his own.
The people over the intermonet have their "facts" and we have our facts (the right ones.) Its just another tool to use because most people don't get the subtly of kindness, goodworks, etc. When you can <i>tell</i> someone they are wrong about their beliefs (in this case the belief about not having one) then they have no more proverbial ammo with which to shoot you with.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Feb 27 2003, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Speaking of lies, how long does it take a lie to undue itself? A few days? months? Maybe even a few years if it was a really good one. Lies do NOT last 2000 years with 1 billion people believing its the truth. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would call you every name I can think of, but its best not to on these forums. So, I will have to try to speak without swearwords, but its going to be hard...
What the **** are you talking about. Religion has absolutely no freaking thing to do with lies. Its pure belief, belief of people who believe in it for reasons I do not care for, reasons that dont affect me in any way. People that are normally raised believing that its the best thing to do, so they follow it, and they learnt to love it. People are religious because they feel that being religious makes them better people, that somehow they are closer to the all-powerful nothingness that is god. I dont care for what reasons someone may or may not be religous, I just dont want religious people annoying me. I personally dont give a **** for god, or jesus, or any **** thats similar. I believe that its a bunch of **** invented by ancient races, and when the world started advancing a bunch of those ancient people decided to continue being ancient, and continued to study and worship the gods. Eventually, like mentioned before, it simply turned into a creed that dictated goodness and loving of all, and some people were afraid to stop believing
EDIT: Theres nowhere near 1 billion dedicated christians
Not saying the Xtianity is a lie here or anything but lies can indeed last for thousands of years. Saying otherwise is naivete to the point of foolishness.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
you know what ? there's another true story that has all sorts of factual information backing it up. The universe revolves around the earth.
Just another example of how something is always *true* because other people believe it to be true. It was the truth for a while even after being disproven simply because so many people refused to accept anything contrary to their beliefs.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 28 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 28 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> you know what ? there's another true story that has all sorts of factual information backing it up. The universe revolves around the earth.
Just another example of how something is always *true* because other people believe it to be true. It was the truth for a while even after being disproven simply because so many people refused to accept anything contrary to their beliefs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting, I'd like to hear of such factual information.
I don't think it's stars... I think it's just a pan of black paper, (turns blue when there's light held to it), and well, this black paper has a few holes in it, which allow light to seep through. And it is massive, absolutely massive.
( I would like to state that I have mostly skimmed the posts contained in this thread, I am in no why here to argue any points in the aforementioned thread, I simply will give my story. Anti-flame stuff done... now onto the meat )
As an athiest for 19 years... I had come up with multiple question and inconsistancies that I had found in religion to test my religious friends. I was strong in my beliefs that we were alone... the big bang created everything... there was no god.... and that we were all a gigantic cosmic mistake. Yet I find myself sitting here now... thanking my lord and creator as a christian who now searches to know more. Before everyone starts yelling hypocrite... lets just say I finnaly understand.
Most of the arguments I had used in the past simply required a different point of view of it... as so many things do. I had often used the argument how can something create himself? As I not comfortable with a force or sentient being/spirit that I could not fathom? Yet I accepted that the universe was infinite... which no mind CAN fathom. Picture the entire universe in your mind... it is simply not possible. Once I accepted that some things cannot be understood by the human mind I let myself open the possiblity that as humans debating a deity we would lack the knowledge or even words to describe it. It would be as a pug trying to understand floating point calculations.
That said... I became able to accept other portions of the bible. I now can trust that god made the world in days... yet I still hold true to the big bang theory... how can this be you say? Well how do you define a day? Most answer twenty four hours... yet on every other planet it varies... so who is to say how long a day would be for a diety? It could be one hour... it could be billions of years.... so my belief in science and my religion now can coexist yet again.
Another intresting note... Most mathematicians agree that there is one universal law...
And this has been tested of the 4 forces that exist in the universe... gravity being one of them....
In collision tests with protons and anti-protons it has been proven that these laws merge... and that at the beginning of creation all matter was governed by one law that described everything... perfection if you will.... and while reading the bible... i came across the passage about in the beginning there was the word. Now since mathmatics is perfect and so is god... I find it intresting that ONE law or ONE word... was the start of the universe... Intresting thing to ponder i thought.
Oh well if anyone found anything useful or insightful in my incoherent ramblings... im glad... thats just my side of the coin.
Comments
So let's play a game of statistics over whether "Playing it safe" where religion is concerned is actually playing it safe at all.
In this post I'm going to make some assumptions, but I feel that they are reasonable assumptions.
let's say that the 10 biggest religions(regardless of time constraints) have among them a 90% chance of being right. And let's say that all the other religions in the world combined have a 10% chance of being right. Now, since there are so many smaller religions lumped together into the 10%, your chances are infintesimally small of being right if you pick one. So let's just consider picking a smaller one to be flat out wrong under all circumstances.
Now, let's assume that all of the "big 10" have an equal chance of being correct. Now, if you take 90% and divide it by 10 u get 9%, that means that even if you pick one of the big 10 that you still have a 91% chance of "going to hell" or whatever punsihment comes with the correct religion.
Even Las Vegas gives better odds than 9% on almost everything except "big jackpots". But we all know that if any one of us tried for a big jackpot with even our entire paycheck we wouldn't win.
So, you say that paying out several years worth of my short time on this planet is worth a 9% chance of winning ? I say you don't know the value of your life on this earth.
Now, for people like Legionairred that have thought about this a bit, I give them much better odds (Still not odds that I'd personally gamble with mind you).
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a small logic flaw with this argument, although I do see the point your trying to get at. The problem is if you play you have a 9% chance of "winning" your way into heaven . But if you don't play at all you are automaticly damned (assuming of course that there is in fact a correct religion). That is also working under the premise that if you live a "good" life, yet pick the wrong religon, you are automaticly damned. I personaly have never bought that.
I'm my mind being a Christian means living be the teachings of the bible, specifical the teachings of Christ. Prehaps I'm oversimplifing, but to me on of the most important themes in Christ's teachings was forgiveness. If Jesus teachs forgiveness, I don't see how someone who has lived a virtuos life, by the standards in the biblle, except they happened to pray to Vishnu or which ever God instead, could possibly be damned.
Wow I just relised that I completely defeated my point here.....by my last standard [Who]'s argument is validated, if you can get into heaven by living a good life no matter whom you worship why worship any God (s) at all? Well, I sure didn't intend to discredit him completely by any means. I don't agree with him that religon is a waste of time, but I do respect that he is able to back up his opinion .
Anyways I guess what I'm trying to say is, in my opinion, how you live your life is more important than choseing the "right " God, or lack there of. If you notice many, I'd hazard most, major religions have very similair rules of how to live; Don't kill, Don't decieve, Respect and Help your fellow man, etc. They may say it diffrent ways, but the themes are consistant.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->people that follow one simply because they think it's in the "Life" handbook are the ones that really get on my nerves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mine too....nothing pisses me off more than someone who says they are Christians, go to church every Sunday (I personaly don't attend church, but my reasons for not would be a whole nother posts worth), but don't consistantly live by the strictures in the Bible, and can't give a good reason why they are Chirstians. Its as if they are simply because their parents started taking them to church from a young age, and it's easier not to think about it.
I feel blessed that my parents decided to raise me and my brother with out religion. It allowed me to make choices about what I belive when I was ready to, to really think about it. There is a point where you need blind faith, but in my opinion blindly beliving in God and Heaven, doesn't mean you should think about <i>what</i> you are beliving in. I had a hard time reconciling the good I found in the bible with some of the ways it has been used, and some of the ways the church interpretes it today. I ended up rejecting the church in favor of my interpretation of the Bible.
Well, My rambling doesn't seem to be coming to any point, so I'll just close here. I think what I was trying to get at is that religion is to personal a thing to not think about, or for any one person to be able to get it right for others.
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What standard? That of men, or that of Christ.
That of men, yes, we can live up to and surpass, this is true. But men are not judged against other men, men are judged against God. He's willing to forgive you, that's why he died on the cross for you while you were still a sinner, to take the pain of judgement for you.
Grace means that no matter what you've done, you are saved if you ask and believe. The fact that you've done good in your life deosn't change the fact that by being human, it's in your nature to commit sins, and you've committed them. A rusty car with chrome on it is still a rusty car. A rusty car with LOTS of chrome on it is a shiny rusty car, but it doesn't change the fact that the car is still rusty.
The thing that has to be believed is that everyone has fallen short of the glory that is God, and to get there, to get to Him, the things you've done to get you in the place you're in have to be paid for. You can do it, or Jesus can do it, the choice is up to you.
That's the biblical teaching, anyway.
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Okay, first off, I was in no way trying to upset or discourage you, sorry if it sounded like that. I appreciate hearing the opinion of someone who has actually thought about his believes a LOT.
Then again you said yourself that religion is something you have to feel. When you truly believe you jsut know that it is right and you can feel it with your whole being. This is just something that I cannot say about myself. I might try to live by the biblical teachings or think that I believe as much as I want to, but that does not make me a true believer, it would rather make me one of those people who say they are part of a religion, but didn't think much about it during their life. I think we both do not like these kind of people very much.
Concerning the fact that the internet is somewhat cold, when it comes to things that should touch your heart, I guess that is true. It is always easier being of a certain mood or attitude when you have only the screen to look at. You can easily say things, when you don't have to look in someone's eyes. Then again, many arguments do not come over as powerful as they would face to face because all the mimics and gestures are lost, the tone someone uses. Face to face conversations, especially arguments, live from rethoric.
I am not saying that I will turn from religion forever, you never know, when it hits you, but about the part in being in a fellowship with people who are emotionally involved: You always achieve feelings like that, when a large crowd of people is really "into" something, like for example in a concert. Large crowds always convey emotions rather well.
Anyway, ride on!
Your all right, religion isn't something to argue about like science, it is something you have to experience and love.
Has anyone heard of limbo? Catholics ( they are denomination of Christianity) believe that if you lived a good life, meaning you didn't rob a bank or kill someone, and have basic morals including guilt, but did not Believe In Jesus or God, you would be sent to a place called limbo. It is a place neither hell nor heaven.
1800-Messiah : Usually when someone tells me that they've rejected what I believe to be true, it does upset me a little. Not personally, I'm assured in my beliefs, I just kind of worry what will happen to those other people.
Just remember, just because you don't feel it now, doesn't mean that you wont be touched by it's love later.
I think at the time, the image gnawed at me that there seemed to be so many charismatic debators who pointed out what seemed to be so many cracks in Christianity. The foolhardy lad I was, I thought that I could somehow change the views of others with words. Just plain words. And the end result was just plain nothing. The fact comes now that debating should simply be for a place for the exchange of ideas, as well as for fun. It's a bad place to pour emotions into, cause no one ever sees those emotions, and they are wasted.
So now, I treat debate simply for leisure... or at least I'll be back in action after I live through the average "teen crisis" that everyone has been through before; it's vacuumed up most of my energy; and my current stance with Christianity isn't what it usually is, (I guess this part of my life is usually the time where most people get hit with some sort of revelation much like [WHO]'s, and it's a big factor as to whether you decide to go over the speed bump, or take a U-turn).
I've been a bit desensitized from all my convoluted thoughts, so I don't really feel any emotions at this point; neither happy, angry, for sad: just plain neutral, (although I can gurantee you that this "phase" is far from finished, and I'll be headed back to the unstable wave emotions sometime in the near future). I've found keeping a journal (xanga.com) seems to help with the stress, (directing a portion of your violence at a pocket of the Internet), and it should make for entertaining reads when I finally get the hell out of this stage and laugh at the petty quibbles that somehow managed to make me collapse God knows how many times to the point I just wanted to self-destruct so that this tug-of-war between God and Satan would end with no winners, (still feel this way at times though).
Debate on!
I might be wrong about some of these, I dont know that much about what different religions believe in.
Islam, Christian, are almost exactly the same in terms of what is written in The Bible and The Koran. You are to love each other, and be friends and appreciate and live in the creation of your god, whether or not his name is God, or Allah. You are hindu, you believe in the god's creation of the world, and are to live in and respect their world as you love one another, you are bhuddist, same thing.
If anything, religion was invented by cave men who didnt have science, and resorted to religion instead. What it grew to be over time was a creed that tried to make the world a better, loving place, for it was the wish if your god(s).
If god(s) do exist, then I dont believe that there are different ones that have power over their people, its all the same at the top, there is a force in the universe that influences the world in different names, and to everyone its all about care and virtue. You dont burn in hell if you think your god's name is something else, thats immoral, which is really against what religion is all about.
Yeah, thats also why theres that group of people that want to rewrite The Bible, that book has some pretty **** up stuff in it
Actually....
John 3:16-18
16 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, and <b>whosover believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.</b>
17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 <b>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.</b>
In other words...trust in Christ to take you, or else.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Islam, Christian, are almost exactly the same in terms of what is written in The Bible and The Koran. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Except for the big difference that Christians believe that heaven is achieved through Christ, not Mohommad (or however its spelt.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If anything, religion was invented by cave men who didnt have science, and resorted to religion instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If religion was something that was "made up" then that means Jesus wasn't God's Son which therefore meant that He couldn't have done all His cool miracles. What do you think compelled Jesus' disciples and follows to keep with Him? The miracles. After Jesus' death His disciples should have been like "Well....That was a waste of time, let's go back to fishing or something." But no. They stuck with Jesus. In fact, after Jesus came back from the dead and told the disciples about baptizing all nations and such, they did, and they died for it. <u>Who in their right minds would die for a lie?</u>
Speaking of lies, how long does it take a lie to undue itself? A few days? months? Maybe even a few years if it was a really good one. Lies do NOT last 2000 years with 1 billion people believing its the truth.
Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies.
Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lie, spanning 66 works and millenia, while still able to be conclusive and true to itself, and the history around it?
Who says it wasn't all a lie? Every last page. When it comes right down to it, when you use the Bible to prove itself, you are useing lies to prove lies. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lie, spanning 66 works and millenia, while still able to be conclusive and true to itself, and the history around it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
basically, yes.
It's not as if some of the lies in the Bible are hard to spot. One big one: the Bible claims that God exists.
My point being that if you go around trying to prove that the Xtian bible is factual then you lack faith.
To prove to himself? No, of course not, then they have their faith. But to other people, like AllurHive, who believe that this is a load of crap?
I still think that serving and loving people is the best way of showing God, though, not facts, so I'll keep doing that. However, to each his own.
I would call you every name I can think of, but its best not to on these forums. So, I will have to try to speak without swearwords, but its going to be hard...
What the **** are you talking about. Religion has absolutely no freaking thing to do with lies. Its pure belief, belief of people who believe in it for reasons I do not care for, reasons that dont affect me in any way. People that are normally raised believing that its the best thing to do, so they follow it, and they learnt to love it. People are religious because they feel that being religious makes them better people, that somehow they are closer to the all-powerful nothingness that is god. I dont care for what reasons someone may or may not be religous, I just dont want religious people annoying me. I personally dont give a **** for god, or jesus, or any **** thats similar. I believe that its a bunch of **** invented by ancient races, and when the world started advancing a bunch of those ancient people decided to continue being ancient, and continued to study and worship the gods. Eventually, like mentioned before, it simply turned into a creed that dictated goodness and loving of all, and some people were afraid to stop believing
EDIT: Theres nowhere near 1 billion dedicated christians
Just another example of how something is always *true* because other people believe it to be true. It was the truth for a while even after being disproven simply because so many people refused to accept anything contrary to their beliefs.
Just another example of how something is always *true* because other people believe it to be true. It was the truth for a while even after being disproven simply because so many people refused to accept anything contrary to their beliefs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, I'd like to hear of such factual information.
- Hey, guess I'm starting to feel better.
As an athiest for 19 years... I had come up with multiple question and inconsistancies that I had found in religion to test my religious friends. I was strong in my beliefs that we were alone... the big bang created everything... there was no god.... and that we were all a gigantic cosmic mistake. Yet I find myself sitting here now... thanking my lord and creator as a christian who now searches to know more. Before everyone starts yelling hypocrite... lets just say I finnaly understand.
Most of the arguments I had used in the past simply required a different point of view of it... as so many things do. I had often used the argument how can something create himself? As I not comfortable with a force or sentient being/spirit that I could not fathom? Yet I accepted that the universe was infinite... which no mind CAN fathom. Picture the entire universe in your mind... it is simply not possible. Once I accepted that some things cannot be understood by the human mind I let myself open the possiblity that as humans debating a deity we would lack the knowledge or even words to describe it. It would be as a pug trying to understand floating point calculations.
That said... I became able to accept other portions of the bible. I now can trust that god made the world in days... yet I still hold true to the big bang theory... how can this be you say? Well how do you define a day? Most answer twenty four hours... yet on every other planet it varies... so who is to say how long a day would be for a diety? It could be one hour... it could be billions of years.... so my belief in science and my religion now can coexist yet again.
Another intresting note... Most mathematicians agree that there is one universal law...
And this has been tested of the 4 forces that exist in the universe... gravity being one of them....
In collision tests with protons and anti-protons it has been proven that these laws merge... and that at the beginning of creation all matter was governed by one law that described everything... perfection if you will.... and while reading the bible... i came across the passage about in the beginning there was the word. Now since mathmatics is perfect and so is god... I find it intresting that ONE law or ONE word... was the start of the universe... Intresting thing to ponder i thought.
Oh well if anyone found anything useful or insightful in my incoherent ramblings... im glad... thats just my side of the coin.