moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 11:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 11:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin. Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously, this thread is for respectful discussion. If you can't respectfully discuss, then go away. You are free to think that another person's beliefs are full of crap, but you should never insult their intelligence or their morality.
<!--QuoteBegin--Quidam+Feb 23 2003, 07:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Quidam @ Feb 23 2003, 07:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i mean, how was he to know that rape was evil and bad?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The reaction of his victim might be a clue.
C.S. Lewis wrote at length on the fact that people often argue over being treated "as they deserve" and "with fairness", which presupposes a standard of behavior.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind, or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behavior was obvious to every one...
There have been differences between [different cultures'] moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks, and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own... Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of doublecrossing all the people who had been kindest to him.
Lewis actually did his suggested exercise, and gives a comparative summary of the specific cultural moralities he lists in an appendix to <i>The Abolition of Man</i>.
If the person in your example is truly sociopathic, it's God's domain to judge as He sees fit.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 01:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 01:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 11:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 11:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->christianity is full of that kind of elitist crap throughout history-need i even mention "the white mans burden" <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin. Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously, this thread is for respectful discussion. If you can't respectfully discuss, then go away. You are free to think that another person's beliefs are full of crap, but you should never insult their intelligence or their morality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If that was aimed towards me, as I assume it was, I don't think he's ignorant. However, calling Christianity elitist, simply because of misuses or distortions of the faith, is at least off-base.
Yes, people have carried out inhumane acts in the name of God before, but also in the name of Bhudda, Allah, and Science. It seems no belief is safe from those who wish to pervert it. In any case, I'll try to cool down, but try to keep from calling my religion crap, and I'll do likewise.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
whoa whoa whoa, back up a step there. Since when have inhumane acts been carried out in "The Name of Science". I don't remember Newton's Law having any text saying i need to act differently to people that don't believe it. Religious fanatics are nutballs that have some form of validation through a 2000 year old book. Mad scientists are just nutballs, plain and simple.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 02:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If that was aimed towards me, as I assume it was, I don't think he's ignorant. However, calling Christianity elitist, simply because of misuses or distortions of the faith, is at least off-base. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Man, cool down. I was offering support that his comment was unjustified. I was agreeing with you. AGREEing with you. sheesh <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
well, unfortunately that wasnt made clear enough to him. maybe you should have said something that actually showed that you do agree with him next time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since when have inhumane acts been carried out in "The Name of Science". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about doctors digging up corpses for dissection?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2003
We can't expect a member of any belief system to account for the actions of everyone who has ever ostensibly had the same beliefs. Saying that the Crusades and the Salem witch trails were unjustified doesn't invalidate Christianity any more than eugenics invalidates science. I would suggest that we move the discussion away from the history of the various beliefs. (if you want to debate experimentation on animals, that's a whole other thread)
(btw thank you Leg for answering my question.)
Furthurmore, I would like to suggest that if you are posting, that you do it out of interest in another's belief or out of desire to share your own. We aren't trying to disprove whole religions. If you have a question it should be seeking to learn more about the way the religion deals with various issues. Most religions have been around for long enough that your question has probably been asked before. If the answer doesn't satisfy you then that is your decision. It doesn't make it universal law.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 11:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Religious fanatics are nutballs that have some form of validation through a 2000 year old book. Mad scientists are just nutballs, plain and simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Religious fanatics who don't practice the doctrine they claim to adhere to are no more validated than mad scientists. Hiding behind a label doesn't give something credibility, it just distorts the truth.
3 popular anti-religion examples with my response:
Hitler <i>claimed</i> to have a Christian belief system in <i>Mein Kampf</i> (anti-Christian <a href='http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm' target='_blank'>source</a>)... and later sent 3,000 priests to the death camp at Dachau (<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/740218.stm' target='_blank'>source</a>). Anyone who has analyzed the gospels and the apostolic letters couldn't reasonably believe that Hitler was following Christian doctrine--what he really believed was a distortion of Biblical teaching. Therefore anything he claimed to do in the name of Christianity wasn't validated (or condoned, or supported) through the Bible by association.
If the Koran advocated homicidal suicides, suicide bombers would be validated--but (from my limited understanding) it doesn't, so they aren't. They've lost touch with the religion they supposedly are championing and their actions can't be considered under the guidance of that book.
By the same token, the Crusades should not have happened--they did because men second-guessed what God wanted and lost touch with the messages of Christ and the apostles. The church has committed horrible acts in the name of Christ--but even if they truly believed they were validated, it doesn't logically follow that Biblical doctrine supports their actions. In this case, the entire leadership of a religion Got It Wrong™ due to their human failings.
The nutballs you're talking about need to Read The Manual. The distortion of public perception about what Christianity teaches due to hypocritical practices and false labels is what Billy Graham is referring to in Legionnaired's sig.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2003
I just cannot see how anyone can claim that about Christianity. D'ja ever read the Old Testament? You can't go for 3 pages without God smiting someone, or him telling his followers to smite people, or people killing each other in God's name.
Now, I will admit that the New Testament tries to make God seem like this new "kind and gentle" type guy, but if that was the case, why keep all this violence in the book? Same with the old laws(Leviticus and Dueteronomy). It is made very clear(in Mark especially) that when Jesus comes along, all the old laws=invalid, yet, these old laws are still in the book, they are still followed, and if you ask me, they show more in what Christianity as a whole has done over the past 2000 years.
It doesn't matter what a religion says that it's supposed to do, it matters what it does. And what I see christianity doing is running the Western world into what will soon be a police-state if we're not careful, and all the while christianity claims it is teh one being persecuted.
Alright, first of all, sorry about overreacting. And for misreading you, moult.
In any case, Allurhive: The old laws are not disproved, they were just no longer needed. The law was meant to point out sin, not to forgive it. Christ's victory over sin has fulfilled that, not nullified it.
Hmm, time for my evening feeding, I'll post more later.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
edited February 2003
Just because the bible doesn't TELL people to go out killing people doesn't mean it isn't setting a bad example.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians. Who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
-Billy Graham <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is the complete and total lack of any actual higher power.
You wandered a bit in your comments, so I'm going to cover some diverse ground.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just cannot see how anyone can claim that Christianity. D'ja ever read the Old Testament? You can't go for 3 pages without God smiting someone, or him telling his followers to smite people, or people killing each other in God's name.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a pattern in the Old Testament. God forms a covenant with someone (Abraham, Moses) and makes promises for their prosperity. In the same covenant, he tells them what will happen if they or their descendants break their part of the deal. When the descendants do break the deal (people are fallable) God sends prophets to warn them. When they persist, the promised consequences are carried out--God always keeps his promises with both rewards and punishments.
God punished people in the Old Testament because they had set themselves permanently against him and toward wickedness. Sodom and Gomorrah is probably the most famous example of destruction in the Old Testament... if you take a look at Genesis 18:22-33, you'll see that those cities didn't have 10 righteous people in them--otherwise they would have been spared. Those people who <i>were</i> righteous were allowed to leave Sodom in Genesis 19, which also records the final act that doomed the city. Ezekiel 33 gives more detail on how God feels about punishing the wicked-- Ezekiel 33:11 reads, "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn away from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'"
Before Christ, there was an entire sacrificial system to atone for sin, allowing God to be merciful if people sought forgiveness--Leviticus chapter 16 is all about how to mend a relationship with God before Christ. That system was replaced by Christ's sacrifice in the New Testament.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I will admit that the New Testament tries to make God seem like this new "kind and gentle" type guy, but if that was the case, why keep all this violence in the book? Same with the old laws(Leviticus and Dueteronomy). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God's justice is just as comprehensive in the New Testament as in the Old--judgment is still coming for everyone. The difference between the Old and New is the fact that his justice (for our sins which require punishment) has been countered by his mercy (Christ was punished in our place, opening the way to salvation if we accept His forgiveness. It's impossible to "earn" salvation because we--including Christians--won't ever be worthy of it on our own merit).
The old laws and the entire Old Testament are necessary for context--the universe didn't reset when Christ was born, and Christianity didn't come from a vacuum. Without the Old Testament prophesies regarding Jesus, the identity of Christ as Messiah would be difficult to confirm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is made very clear (in Mark especially) that when Jesus comes along, all the old laws=invalid, yet, these old laws are still in the book, they are still followed, and if you ask me, they show more in what Christianity as a whole has done over the past 2000 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The old laws weren't invalidated, but the punishment for not being able to flawlessly uphold them has been averted for those who have accepted Christ. Passages like Romans 7 make it clear that the Mosaic Law has been superceded by a new covenant. We have the letters of the apostles to early churches to describe what a Christian lifestyle should be, and Acts to show how the early church evolved.
I could be misinterpreting what you're saying, but it seems like you're arguing that a bad messenger necessarily indicates a bad message, which may be true in some cases but isn't automatic. I <i>think</i> you're expressing the reaction Graham talks about in Legionairred's sig. If someone doesn't understand a math textbook, does that ruin the laws of mathematics? If someone plays an instrument poorly, does that mean that the instrument is defective? If you look at a picture reflected in a muddy pool, is the original image dirty?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't matter what a religion says that it's supposed to do, it matters what it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christian missionaries try to spread Christianity--along with literacy, medicine, and other benefits. Christian charities contribute to worthy causes around the world. Individuals like Mother Theresa aren't typical Christians, but they follow Christian principles more closely than the rest of us. Everybody falls short of God's glory -- if Christians could live perfect lives, we wouldn't need Christ <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
If you want a true example of what Christianity is and what its followers should be, look at the life of Christ. The word "sin" actually roughly means "to miss the mark"... With the new covenant, we've been asked to love God and each other; Christ's example gives us a target to aim at. I do try to walk the walk in addition to talking the talk, but I'm not any better than anybody else, and I tend to miss the mark more often than I care to admit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what I see christianity doing is running the Western world into what will soon be a police-state if we're not careful...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I'm:<ul> <li>anti-censorship (If I want to pray on a high school football field before a game, why can't I? And if my right to free speech is protected, the things I don't like hearing should receive the same protection.) <li>anti-gun control (If somebody is fine with murder, limiting the type of handgun they can get over a counter won't help--especially since law enforcement can't stop the street trade) <li>anti-death penalty (I believe in the sanctity of human life) and <li>neutral to banning abortion (because I believe strict abortion laws won't stop abortions any more than gun control would stop shootings) </ul>I'm not sure how that leads to a police state. My politics tend to be like my faith--I'm continually thinking them through and seeing if they make sense. Keep in mind that many of the American founding fathers were Deists, with Christians among them. Please don't look at the Christian Coalition and assume all Christians are Pat Robertson clones--I believe that's a vocal minority. The far right worries me, but Christians don't have a monopoly on oppressive ideas (e.g. the Taliban).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... and all the while christianity claims it is teh one being persecuted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(EXTERNAL): Paul Marshall, in his book, Their Blood Cries Out states that today, more than 200 million Christians live in countries whose governments aid and abet their persecution. In fact, some reports have said that as many as 800 million Christians are daily persecuted for their faith in Christ. It has been reported that more Christians died for their faith in the 20th century than in the preceding 19 centuries. It was calculated that, in the last century, a Christian was killed every 3 minutes for their faith. -- <a href='http://www.christianmonitor.org/Articles/perspectives.html' target='_blank'>source</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can dismiss that as propaganda if you want, but can you say with authority that a specific instance that the source page gives is untrue? In the US, Christians aren't tortured for their beliefs, but people can certainly jump to conclusions quickly... The comment about a Christian police state above is an example of how Christians are viewed (and therefore treated) differently from other religious groups. Not all of us are Bible-thumping bigots (I constantly hope that Jerry Falwell will learn reading comprehension skills and stop taking things one out-of-context verse at a time), but many people have that prejudice.
-----------------------------
Well, that was a eyeful... I'd like to get back to the central idea--perhaps this needs offshoot topics <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 04:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very constructive.
Now find a passage of the Bible where Christ or the apostles encourage violence of any sort.
EDIT: As noted above, I'm anti-censorship.
EDIT (again): The Bible would be an R or NC-17 movie.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now find a passage of the Bible where Christ or the apostles encourage violence of any sort.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did the power rangers EVER encourage violence ? It never stopped them from kicking someone's **** every episode.
Hey Allurhive can u explain that first part a bit more clear ? Thx
I don't know about you, but I can read more than 3 pages of the old testament without a God smite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The old laws are still used, because they are the basic foundations on how God wants humans to behave. I don't quite believe that Jesus wanted to invalid everything in the Old Testament, but rather fulfil all that was said in it. Try to think it this way: There is a canyon, on one side of the canyon is the Old testament and on the other the New Testament. Now comes along Jesus, the bridge represented by a cross to fill the empty void in the middle, which if you want to imagine, can be anything (sin). See how both sides connect? Jesus was simply the missing link.
God is just, his actions are justified by his own justice, wisdom, and fairness. He can do whatever he wants to do, because he is God. Thankfully he doesn't blow up the Earth (errm,astroid) if he wanted, because he was simply bored or either really angry at us pitiful and sinful humans. Thankfully we have Jesus to save us from this soon to come wrath called hell (that was pretty irreverant, and back then it was done through animal sacrifice).
There are some really excellent books out there that will help answer your questions, which I am sure leg would be happy to help with, hehehe. A bit of warning though, some are ReAlLy misleading...
What we need is a Peter the apostle like Miracle healer, zing! dead man raissed, woot!,lol. Then I am pretty sure that all the people requiring hardcore scientific fact to prove that God exists will believe. Even if there was evidence that God did exist, through science and what not, a lot of people will have a harder time believing in the evidence itself.
Please, if anyone thinks they are Mr. know it all, that they do not need to read the bible or any good Christian books by good authors and then comment on the beliefs of Christianity and say that it is so and so, then do a bit more research (this applys to everybody, even me <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Man I can be such a hypocryte.
Good day to you and may Willy Wonka bless you with 10 kg of chocolate <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because the bible doesn't TELL people to go out killing people doesn't mean it isn't setting a bad example.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
To everyone who responded to my previous post: there is no way I can defend that position having set it up the way I did. It was said in haste, and said with very bad language, even for me. I still hold that position, but I cannot hope to rebut to anything said about that post, because I was just setting myself up for failure with it.
If you stick around for a while, you will probably hear me say something similar again, but it will hopefully be said much better.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because the bible doesn't TELL people to go out killing people doesn't mean it isn't setting a bad example.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying that video games cause violence. I'm saying that there's an undeniable correlation in the two arguments
Leg: So let me get this straight. You're going to give up using blind faith to try to reason ? That's one step closer to the light!
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 08:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just because the bible doesn't TELL people to go out killing people doesn't mean it isn't setting a bad example.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying that video games cause violence. I'm saying that there's an undeniable correlation in the two arguments
Leg: So let me get this straight. You're going to give up using blind faith to try to reason ? That's one step closer to the light! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I've been TRYING to reason with you for, what, 6-8 pages? And most of them have been longer then a printed page, and not once did I EVER say "Because God said so."
I don't want to try to reason with you, because no matter what I say, you're just going to call Jesus the giant power-ranger face anyway, so what's the point. If you want to present a point, and present it in an intelligent, non-condecending fashon, I'll talk with you all night about it. But every time you insult me like that, I have an inexplicable urge to punch the living hell out of my monitor.
So please, either think of something constructive to add to the argument, other then "The apostles were power rangers," or don't come here at all. Thanks a lot.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 08:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leg: So let me get this straight. You're going to give up using blind faith to try to reason ? That's one step closer to the light! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That was a little below the belt, man.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...not once did I EVER say "Because God said so." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is.
<!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...not once did I EVER say "Because God said so." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low...
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when was I the standard for lowness?
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Furthurmore, I would like to suggest that if you are posting, that you do it out of interest in another's belief or out of desire to share your own. We aren't trying to disprove whole religions. If you have a question it should be seeking to learn more about the way the religion deals with various issues. Most religions have been around for long enough that your question has probably been asked before. If the answer doesn't satisfy you then that is your decision. It doesn't make it universal law. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly what I hoped this thread wouldn't turn into . . .
Its usefullness as an exchange of ideas is waning rapidly
<!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 24 2003, 08:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 24 2003, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when was I the standard for lowness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, you're just usually the one who makes the most insulting comments on here. I apologize.
<!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 08:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 08:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--moultano+Feb 24 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Feb 24 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Furthurmore, I would like to suggest that if you are posting, that you do it out of interest in another's belief or out of desire to share your own. We aren't trying to disprove whole religions. If you have a question it should be seeking to learn more about the way the religion deals with various issues. Most religions have been around for long enough that your question has probably been asked before. If the answer doesn't satisfy you then that is your decision. It doesn't make it universal law. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly what I hoped this thread wouldn't turn into . . .
Its usefullness as an exchange of ideas is waning rapidly <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Someone had better come up with something fast.
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
edited February 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 08:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--AllUrHiveRBelong2Us+Feb 24 2003, 08:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AllUrHiveRBelong2Us @ Feb 24 2003, 08:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 08:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when was I the standard for lowness? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, you're just usually the one who makes the most insulting comments on here. I apologize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hahahaha. No hard feelins, mate. I've been waiting for you to get a good zinger on me anyway.
[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 05:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--[WHO]Them+Feb 24 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([WHO]Them @ Feb 24 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 24 2003, 05:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...not once did I EVER say "Because God said so." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't detract from the point. Being widely accepted has NOTHING to do with it not being a case of "Because god said so." And if you bothered to study the Atheist argument you would know that it's widely accepted BECAUSE it's a case of "Because God said so."
And don't talk about below the belt hits. Because no matter how you slice it. Nobody is going to call a statement that tries to bring someone into a fairytale below the belt. But EVERY statement that tries to bring someone out of their fairytale will ALWAYS be "below the belt".
Comments
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin.
Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, this thread is for respectful discussion. If you can't respectfully discuss, then go away. You are free to think that another person's beliefs are full of crap, but you should never insult their intelligence or their morality.
The reaction of his victim might be a clue.
C.S. Lewis wrote at length on the fact that people often argue over being treated "as they deserve" and "with fairness", which presupposes a standard of behavior.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind, or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behavior was obvious to every one...
There have been differences between [different cultures'] moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks, and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own... Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of doublecrossing all the people who had been kindest to him.
-- <i>Mere Christianity</i><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lewis actually did his suggested exercise, and gives a comparative summary of the specific cultural moralities he lists in an appendix to <i>The Abolition of Man</i>.
If the person in your example is truly sociopathic, it's God's domain to judge as He sees fit.
I've tried to be patient with you, but it's wearing thin.
Please, check your predisposed ignorance and hatred towards my faith at the door. Thanks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously, this thread is for respectful discussion. If you can't respectfully discuss, then go away. You are free to think that another person's beliefs are full of crap, but you should never insult their intelligence or their morality. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that was aimed towards me, as I assume it was, I don't think he's ignorant. However, calling Christianity elitist, simply because of misuses or distortions of the faith, is at least off-base.
Yes, people have carried out inhumane acts in the name of God before, but also in the name of Bhudda, Allah, and Science. It seems no belief is safe from those who wish to pervert it. In any case, I'll try to cool down, but try to keep from calling my religion crap, and I'll do likewise.
Man, cool down. I was offering support that his comment was unjustified. I was agreeing with you. AGREEing with you. sheesh <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Since when have inhumane acts been carried out in "The Name of Science". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what about doctors digging up corpses for dissection?
or testing cosmetics on animals?
they both seem pretty in humane to me...
I would suggest that we move the discussion away from the history of the various beliefs. (if you want to debate experimentation on animals, that's a whole other thread)
(btw thank you Leg for answering my question.)
Furthurmore, I would like to suggest that if you are posting, that you do it out of interest in another's belief or out of desire to share your own. We aren't trying to disprove whole religions. If you have a question it should be seeking to learn more about the way the religion deals with various issues. Most religions have been around for long enough that your question has probably been asked before. If the answer doesn't satisfy you then that is your decision. It doesn't make it universal law.
Religious fanatics who don't practice the doctrine they claim to adhere to are no more validated than mad scientists. Hiding behind a label doesn't give something credibility, it just distorts the truth.
3 popular anti-religion examples with my response:
Hitler <i>claimed</i> to have a Christian belief system in <i>Mein Kampf</i> (anti-Christian <a href='http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm' target='_blank'>source</a>)... and later sent 3,000 priests to the death camp at Dachau (<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/740218.stm' target='_blank'>source</a>). Anyone who has analyzed the gospels and the apostolic letters couldn't reasonably believe that Hitler was following Christian doctrine--what he really believed was a distortion of Biblical teaching. Therefore anything he claimed to do in the name of Christianity wasn't validated (or condoned, or supported) through the Bible by association.
If the Koran advocated homicidal suicides, suicide bombers would be validated--but (from my limited understanding) it doesn't, so they aren't. They've lost touch with the religion they supposedly are championing and their actions can't be considered under the guidance of that book.
By the same token, the Crusades should not have happened--they did because men second-guessed what God wanted and lost touch with the messages of Christ and the apostles. The church has committed horrible acts in the name of Christ--but even if they truly believed they were validated, it doesn't logically follow that Biblical doctrine supports their actions. In this case, the entire leadership of a religion Got It Wrong™ due to their human failings.
The nutballs you're talking about need to Read The Manual. The distortion of public perception about what Christianity teaches due to hypocritical practices and false labels is what Billy Graham is referring to in Legionnaired's sig.
Now, I will admit that the New Testament tries to make God seem like this new "kind and gentle" type guy, but if that was the case, why keep all this violence in the book? Same with the old laws(Leviticus and Dueteronomy). It is made very clear(in Mark especially) that when Jesus comes along, all the old laws=invalid, yet, these old laws are still in the book, they are still followed, and if you ask me, they show more in what Christianity as a whole has done over the past 2000 years.
It doesn't matter what a religion says that it's supposed to do, it matters what it does. And what I see christianity doing is running the Western world into what will soon be a police-state if we're not careful, and all the while christianity claims it is teh one being persecuted.
In any case, Allurhive: The old laws are not disproved, they were just no longer needed. The law was meant to point out sin, not to forgive it. Christ's victory over sin has fulfilled that, not nullified it.
Hmm, time for my evening feeding, I'll post more later.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians. Who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
-Billy Graham
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is the complete and total lack of any actual higher power.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I just cannot see how anyone can claim that Christianity. D'ja ever read the Old Testament? You can't go for 3 pages without God smiting someone, or him telling his followers to smite people, or people killing each other in God's name.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a pattern in the Old Testament. God forms a covenant with someone (Abraham, Moses) and makes promises for their prosperity. In the same covenant, he tells them what will happen if they or their descendants break their part of the deal. When the descendants do break the deal (people are fallable) God sends prophets to warn them. When they persist, the promised consequences are carried out--God always keeps his promises with both rewards and punishments.
God punished people in the Old Testament because they had set themselves permanently against him and toward wickedness. Sodom and Gomorrah is probably the most famous example of destruction in the Old Testament... if you take a look at Genesis 18:22-33, you'll see that those cities didn't have 10 righteous people in them--otherwise they would have been spared. Those people who <i>were</i> righteous were allowed to leave Sodom in Genesis 19, which also records the final act that doomed the city. Ezekiel 33 gives more detail on how God feels about punishing the wicked-- Ezekiel 33:11 reads, "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn away from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'"
Before Christ, there was an entire sacrificial system to atone for sin, allowing God to be merciful if people sought forgiveness--Leviticus chapter 16 is all about how to mend a relationship with God before Christ. That system was replaced by Christ's sacrifice in the New Testament.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, I will admit that the New Testament tries to make God seem like this new "kind and gentle" type guy, but if that was the case, why keep all this violence in the book? Same with the old laws(Leviticus and Dueteronomy). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God's justice is just as comprehensive in the New Testament as in the Old--judgment is still coming for everyone. The difference between the Old and New is the fact that his justice (for our sins which require punishment) has been countered by his mercy (Christ was punished in our place, opening the way to salvation if we accept His forgiveness. It's impossible to "earn" salvation because we--including Christians--won't ever be worthy of it on our own merit).
The old laws and the entire Old Testament are necessary for context--the universe didn't reset when Christ was born, and Christianity didn't come from a vacuum. Without the Old Testament prophesies regarding Jesus, the identity of Christ as Messiah would be difficult to confirm.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is made very clear (in Mark especially) that when Jesus comes along, all the old laws=invalid, yet, these old laws are still in the book, they are still followed, and if you ask me, they show more in what Christianity as a whole has done over the past 2000 years.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The old laws weren't invalidated, but the punishment for not being able to flawlessly uphold them has been averted for those who have accepted Christ. Passages like Romans 7 make it clear that the Mosaic Law has been superceded by a new covenant. We have the letters of the apostles to early churches to describe what a Christian lifestyle should be, and Acts to show how the early church evolved.
I could be misinterpreting what you're saying, but it seems like you're arguing that a bad messenger necessarily indicates a bad message, which may be true in some cases but isn't automatic. I <i>think</i> you're expressing the reaction Graham talks about in Legionairred's sig. If someone doesn't understand a math textbook, does that ruin the laws of mathematics? If someone plays an instrument poorly, does that mean that the instrument is defective? If you look at a picture reflected in a muddy pool, is the original image dirty?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It doesn't matter what a religion says that it's supposed to do, it matters what it does.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Christian missionaries try to spread Christianity--along with literacy, medicine, and other benefits. Christian charities contribute to worthy causes around the world. Individuals like Mother Theresa aren't typical Christians, but they follow Christian principles more closely than the rest of us. Everybody falls short of God's glory -- if Christians could live perfect lives, we wouldn't need Christ <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
If you want a true example of what Christianity is and what its followers should be, look at the life of Christ. The word "sin" actually roughly means "to miss the mark"... With the new covenant, we've been asked to love God and each other; Christ's example gives us a target to aim at. I do try to walk the walk in addition to talking the talk, but I'm not any better than anybody else, and I tend to miss the mark more often than I care to admit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what I see christianity doing is running the Western world into what will soon be a police-state if we're not careful...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally, I'm:<ul>
<li>anti-censorship (If I want to pray on a high school football field before a game, why can't I? And if my right to free speech is protected, the things I don't like hearing should receive the same protection.)
<li>anti-gun control (If somebody is fine with murder, limiting the type of handgun they can get over a counter won't help--especially since law enforcement can't stop the street trade)
<li>anti-death penalty (I believe in the sanctity of human life) and
<li>neutral to banning abortion (because I believe strict abortion laws won't stop abortions any more than gun control would stop shootings)
</ul>I'm not sure how that leads to a police state. My politics tend to be like my faith--I'm continually thinking them through and seeing if they make sense. Keep in mind that many of the American founding fathers were Deists, with Christians among them. Please don't look at the Christian Coalition and assume all Christians are Pat Robertson clones--I believe that's a vocal minority. The far right worries me, but Christians don't have a monopoly on oppressive ideas (e.g. the Taliban).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... and all the while christianity claims it is teh one being persecuted.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(EXTERNAL): Paul Marshall, in his book, Their Blood Cries Out states that today, more than 200 million Christians live in countries whose governments aid and abet their persecution. In fact, some reports have said that as many as 800 million Christians are daily persecuted for their faith in Christ. It has been reported that more Christians died for their faith in the 20th century than in the preceding 19 centuries. It was calculated that, in the last century, a Christian was killed every 3 minutes for their faith. -- <a href='http://www.christianmonitor.org/Articles/perspectives.html' target='_blank'>source</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can dismiss that as propaganda if you want, but can you say with authority that a specific instance that the source page gives is untrue? In the US, Christians aren't tortured for their beliefs, but people can certainly jump to conclusions quickly... The comment about a Christian police state above is an example of how Christians are viewed (and therefore treated) differently from other religious groups. Not all of us are Bible-thumping bigots (I constantly hope that Jerry Falwell will learn reading comprehension skills and stop taking things one out-of-context verse at a time), but many people have that prejudice.
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Well, that was a eyeful... I'd like to get back to the central idea--perhaps this needs offshoot topics <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very constructive.
Now find a passage of the Bible where Christ or the apostles encourage violence of any sort.
EDIT: As noted above, I'm anti-censorship.
EDIT (again): The Bible would be an R or NC-17 movie.
When did the power rangers EVER encourage violence ? It never stopped them from kicking someone's **** every episode.
Allurhive can u explain that first part a bit more clear ? Thx
I don't know about you, but I can read more than 3 pages of the old testament without a God smite <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The old laws are still used, because they are the basic foundations on how God wants humans to behave. I don't quite believe that Jesus wanted to invalid everything in the Old Testament, but rather fulfil all that was said in it. Try to think it this way: There is a canyon, on one side of the canyon is the Old testament and on the other the New Testament. Now comes along Jesus, the bridge represented by a cross to fill the empty void in the middle, which if you want to imagine, can be anything (sin). See how both sides connect? Jesus was simply the missing link.
God is just, his actions are justified by his own justice, wisdom, and fairness. He can do whatever he wants to do, because he is God. Thankfully he doesn't blow up the Earth (errm,astroid) if he wanted, because he was simply bored or either really angry at us pitiful and sinful humans. Thankfully we have Jesus to save us from this soon to come wrath called hell (that was pretty irreverant, and back then it was done through animal sacrifice).
There are some really excellent books out there that will help answer your questions, which I am sure leg would be happy to help with, hehehe. A bit of warning though, some are ReAlLy misleading...
What we need is a Peter the apostle like Miracle healer, zing! dead man raissed, woot!,lol. Then I am pretty sure that all the people requiring hardcore scientific fact to prove that God exists will believe. Even if there was evidence that God did exist, through science and what not, a lot of people will have a harder time believing in the evidence itself.
Please, if anyone thinks they are Mr. know it all, that they do not need to read the bible or any good Christian books by good authors and then comment on the beliefs of Christianity and say that it is so and so, then do a bit more research (this applys to everybody, even me <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> ). Man I can be such a hypocryte.
Good day to you and may Willy Wonka bless you with 10 kg of chocolate <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
WHO, I just can't see any more profit in trying to reason with you, so I'm not even going to try.
If you stick around for a while, you will probably hear me say something similar again, but it will hopefully be said much better.
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that video games cause violence. I'm saying that there's an undeniable correlation in the two arguments
Leg: So let me get this straight. You're going to give up using blind faith to try to reason ? That's one step closer to the light!
Just take for instance all the people that protest violent games and movies. Regardless of whether that game/movie has a redeeming value of moral fiber built in. The standard argument is "monkey see, monkey do".
Same goes for your fantasy book full of power rangers named apostles and it's endless smoting.
Bible ----> "Go Go Power Rangers!" attitude -----> Suicide Bombers and People that want to censor everything. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So let me get this straight. You are agreeing with the people who protest violent video games, and using their argument to attack christianity? If there's anything that the people on a videogame forum are going to get incensed about, its that. Tread lightly my friend. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying that video games cause violence. I'm saying that there's an undeniable correlation in the two arguments
Leg: So let me get this straight. You're going to give up using blind faith to try to reason ? That's one step closer to the light! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been TRYING to reason with you for, what, 6-8 pages? And most of them have been longer then a printed page, and not once did I EVER say "Because God said so."
I don't want to try to reason with you, because no matter what I say, you're just going to call Jesus the giant power-ranger face anyway, so what's the point. If you want to present a point, and present it in an intelligent, non-condecending fashon, I'll talk with you all night about it. But every time you insult me like that, I have an inexplicable urge to punch the living hell out of my monitor.
So please, either think of something constructive to add to the argument, other then "The apostles were power rangers," or don't come here at all. Thanks a lot.
That was a little below the belt, man.
I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is.
I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low...
Since when was I the standard for lowness?
This is exactly what I hoped this thread wouldn't turn into . . .
Its usefullness as an exchange of ideas is waning rapidly
Since when was I the standard for lowness? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're just usually the one who makes the most insulting comments on here. I apologize.
This is exactly what I hoped this thread wouldn't turn into . . .
Its usefullness as an exchange of ideas is waning rapidly <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. Someone had better come up with something fast.
Anyone care to explore some Hebrews 7 with me?
Since when was I the standard for lowness? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, you're just usually the one who makes the most insulting comments on here. I apologize. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hahahaha. No hard feelins, mate. I've been waiting for you to get a good zinger on me anyway.
I believe you have quoted a passage from some religious book in every post you have made. If that's not "Because God said so." Then I don't know what is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about, maybe, using widely accepted scripture to back up the point I've tried to make? Even Allurhive thinks that post was a little low... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't detract from the point. Being widely accepted has NOTHING to do with it not being a case of "Because god said so." And if you bothered to study the Atheist argument you would know that it's widely accepted BECAUSE it's a case of "Because God said so."
And don't talk about below the belt hits. Because no matter how you slice it. Nobody is going to call a statement that tries to bring someone into a fairytale below the belt. But EVERY statement that tries to bring someone out of their fairytale will ALWAYS be "below the belt".
It's called harsh reality.