Pulling back the veil - Natural Selection 2

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Comments

  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    dePARA wrote: »
    Why is it logical to listen to people that want basicly b249 back or NS1 with better graphics?
    "carry on with their other ideas"
    And then they have to listen and have to remove the change again?

    If they turn out to be crappy changes, absolutely.
    On the other hand, look at NS2+. Have they implemented the good stuff? Nope. Basically every server runs it, and players still get confused about the difference between Options and NS+ Options, so that's not really rookie friendly, is it? The code is ready and tested, why not merge it to the vanilla game?
    dePARA wrote: »
    Maybe the devs listened for to long?

    No offence, but I consider that to be a joke :D
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • MephillesMephilles GermanyMembers, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Posts: 975 Advanced user
    tbh I am not sure when everyone in this forum became a better game designer than the guys in the PDT (ok some in this forum actually might be better)

    But I think the PDT is taking a reasonable approach to fulfill their goal. Which is getting new players in and increase retention.

    The only reason why I think people rage about the ways they do it is because they don't want the game to be easier. That would make it more boring. Talking like the have mastered all aspects about the game already and I am sure not even @Wob managed to achieve that.

    But most important is for those people who doesn't want a simplified version of the game (which probably will still be harder than most other games out there) you have a competitive mod in development. If you want something you don't like to be removed from the game or added then just talk to those guys and give good reasoning to that. (I hope deck won't go retard here and accept every stupid idea that sounds great at first). Or find a modder who will make a hardcore ns2 gamemode, whatever. If enough people want to play that than you will have servre admins who will run that mod and you have your environment to play in
    return to zero
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    @Mephilles regarding PDT, the road to hell is paved with good intention ;]
    But yes, I'm sure they are not arseholes with the agenda to destroy the game. Beside HP bars and hitboxes I for one have nothing radical against them.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • KeatsKeats United StatesMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Posts: 154 Advanced user
    .trixX. wrote: »

    I know you're not the only dev and the team is not monolithic

    I would like to point out that IronHorse is not a developer. He is a long-standing member and contributor to this community, and therefore his communication with the devs is somewhat privileged and respected. But ultimately, decisions are not up to him.
    PM sent.
    .trixX.Nordic
  • WakeWake Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Posts: 723 Advanced user
    Therius wrote: »
    Think again.

    Be my guest.
    .trixX. wrote: »
    Wake wrote: »
    Per definition, competition can happen around anything, beeing as "simple" as running 100 meters , running a F1 Grand Prix or qualify as the next Space Shuttle pilot.

    I noticed the parenthesis, but cmon, physical sports as simple? Those are like the most bloody complex challenges you can have as a human. Putting your legs after the other for 100 meters is just the tip of the iceberg. You need years of training, years of coaching, mental and physical fitness... your whole body and soul has to be in perfect harmony for that ~10 seconds. The rules may be simple, but not challenge itself

    Of course, hence the quotes. I was refering to the rules of the run itself (the game)
    That's exactly my point, competition takes place with such a "simple" context as run faster than everyone else for 100m.
    Freak out
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    @Wake yes, quotes... my bad :D

    But esports... nevermind, I see your point in the analogy x)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • WobWob Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Posts: 485 Advanced user
    Mephilles wrote: »
    t
    The only reason why I think people rage about the ways they do it is because they don't want the game to be easier.

    I appreciate that inexperienced and also bad players are having a tough time. I'd like changes to benefit them more than players like myself. I also want nerfs to disadvantage myself more than them.

    At the moment I am not seeing this.
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    This is an absolute non-reason for horrible changes. Think again.

    Horrible from your or the new player view?

    This comment wasn't directed towards the specific changes that have happened, only that "changes need to happen" is a cop-out and not a real argument. Judge patches by their fails and merits, not by some vague blanket statement that "something needs to be done". Removing the game from Steam is something, would that be a good change simply because "something needs to happen"?
    Nordic.trixX.Alite
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    And again:
    Ask 100 players what this game need and you get 100 different answers.

    The rookies want rine jump nerfed, some thinking better tutorials are enough, other thinking F2P NOW is the way to go,...
    This is not new, its part of a community driven game.
    Community is hosting servers, the new dev team coming from the community and most changes in the game are based on ideas from the commnity.

    In the past the devs where trying to please as much people like possible from the community.
    Result: The game had never a real large playerbase.
    But the community was happy.

    Now the devs have changed there mindeset a bit cause the game need NEW players.
    As a result: "The devs are killing the game"
    Cause what, cause they are not trying to please everyone in this already small community anymore?
    Im sure every other publisher had already dumbed down NS2 to the max.

    I think with a bit tweaking the new hitboxes are ok (the slightly higher HP of the skulks are a 1st try).
    image
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Wake wrote: »
    Anyway, let it go, lets lower the skill gap, try to get new people and offer them a way to feel thay can achieve something in less than 800 hours, then evolve again from there maybe.

    Per definition, competition can happen around anything, beeing as "simple" as running 100 meters , running a F1 Grand Prix or qualify as the next Space Shuttle pilot.

    NS2 has enough strategies and tactics room to makes some concessions.

    @IronHorse mentionned Othello, which is a very simplified version of GO game

    With friends, we tried to learn GO by the books, we failed, and we never had the oppotunity to meet GO players to learn.
    But we had many enjoyable games of Othello.

    I played GO with my friend who destroyed me almost all the time, but that made any win I got so much sweeter. I loved learning new things and he would often use interesting analogies to teach me various strategies.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    Wake
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    @Neoken
    ....And because it's a stupidly simple game design to digest (capture the point! or follow the cart!) with an unbelievable amount of forgiveness built in (you can select whatever class you want at any time) with almost zero slippery slopes, and homogeneous teams??
    Or did you just want to conveniently leave out those large factors because they would aid my point?

    The core remaining base (you and me) need to adapt to a more accessible game.
    If said accessibility lowers the ceiling at certain points (I still don't think this is a valid argument considering marine accuracy potential that hasn't been remotely tapped) then we need to not freak the hell out and realize that there is still plleeeennttyy of mechanics and places in the game where there exists a high skill ceiling. Again, see my CS bunnyhopping example.

    IF death is inevitable relying only on this core base, and it's only a matter of time as you say, I doubly see no reason why accessibility for the masses should not be attempted for when that occurs.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    @IronHorse

    I would love nothing more than to make this game more accessible. And I have no issue to adapt to change. If that was the problem I would have quit years ago. The problem is we're disagreeing on how to make the game more accessible. You're talking as if the changes the PDT has pushed through are 100% proven to be the right choices. I and many others have argumented against that on many occasions. Yet every time we do, someone will come along and say "Hey, don't be so stubborn, something needs to change" as if that justifies anything. All I'm saying is that I don't agree with the path the PDT is taking. It's possible to make a game more accessible without dumbing it down, which is why I brought up all the neat features Overwatch has.
    The_Welsh_WizardbonagecooliticAlite
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    New Tutorials and Mentor programs inc.
    image
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    You know the differenve between the current rookies and the one in the past?
    It seems the current rookie generation didnt ask.

    I only see posts in the steam forum like:
    This is op, that need to be nerfed but never posts like: "Im a bad skulk, how can i improve" or "Fade is so strong, how can i kill him"

    If rookies leave the game before they reach the non rookie status, nothing can help them.
    They can join non rookie servers any time they want if they want to learn new things and train this new learned stuff on the rookie only servers.
    Looks like the dont want this.

    Here in the forum i read only "usless changes" but no real ideas how to deal with the learning curve problem beside "Tutorials and UI changes".
    I didnt have an idea either.
    And Ironhorse is right about comparing a super simple gamemode like capture the point with NS2.

    I believe the only solution are 2 modes:
    One dumbed down where the rookies can learn some base elements and the classic NS2 for the vets.
    A balance where high skilled players are happy and new players can compete with them is just impossible in NS2.
    image
    IronHorse
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Neoken wrote: »
    @IronHorse

    I would love nothing more than to make this game more accessible. And I have no issue to adapt to change. If that was the problem I would have quit years ago. The problem is we're disagreeing on how to make the game more accessible. You're talking as if the changes the PDT has pushed through are 100% proven to be the right choices. I and many others have argumented against that on many occasions. Yet every time we do, someone will come along and say "Hey, don't be so stubborn, something needs to change" as if that justifies anything. All I'm saying is that I don't agree with the path the PDT is taking. It's possible to make a game more accessible without dumbing it down, which is why I brought up all the neat features Overwatch has.

    Fair enough.

    Does anyone have any suggestions then besides tutorials and youtube videos that won't get played/watched?
    Actual gameplay simplifying that everyone can agree on that can increase accessibility?

    So far I've only seen the devs try it and people responding to it poorly, with no alternatives suggested typically.
    For instance I've heard the recommendation from high skilled players to lessen the size of the skulk model.. I agree with this actually for multiple reasons, but let's not pretend that it won't benefit the better skulks as well as make it less accessible to your average marine.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    I think you should consider hiring an ex competitive player with editting skills like the one who made this video, comp players have the most understanding of games mechanic, and build that way a solid database of tips that can be linked ingame and to the new wiki.
    .trixX.Me9a
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    dePARA wrote: »
    You know the differenve between the current rookies and the one in the past?
    It seems the current rookie generation didnt ask.
    That's absolutely not true. Sure, only a fraction of newbies pay attention or ask, but they are still there. The player count dwindled since it's an old game, but that doesn't mean the ratio changed. I've seen plenty of rookies ask question and actually heed the advice.
    dePARA wrote: »
    If rookies leave the game before they reach the non rookie status, nothing can help them.
    Sure. But the game ITSELF is complicated, so that will always be the case, not matter how large hitboxes you have, because veterans will always have the edge and slay the inexperienced. THat's true in NS, OW, SC, ANY game there is. Even pong.
    As many of us here explaind, the changes implement change the skill level for BOTH rookies and veterans, so there is absolutely no point to them in terms of player retention.
    dePARA wrote: »
    Here in the forum i read only "usless changes" but no real ideas how to deal with the learning curve problem beside "Tutorials and UI changes".
    I didnt have an idea either.
    Well, then you're not paying attention. There are plenty of ideas beside tutorials and UI changes, in terms of lowering the entry skill. Again, what the devs have done lately decreased BOTH rookie and veteran skill required.
    Also, better tutorials that are MINIGAMES are a solution. Everyone skips tutorials, but if you get items/achievements/cookies for completing one, than there will be incentive to play them through. Requires more work than changing the hitbox? Sure. Is there any technical barrier? Bloody not, we already have two decent tutorial mechanics that can be expanded upon.
    EDIT: @IronHorse
    dePARA wrote: »
    I believe the only solution are 2 modes:
    One dumbed down where the rookies can learn some base elements and the classic NS2 for the vets.
    A balance where high skilled players are happy and new players can compete with them is just impossible in NS2.
    Aaaand how can a split game achieve player retention exactly? Since rookies don't play on rookie servers, how do you expect them not to join veteran servers? Or you'll hardcode the seperation by hive skill? We all know how well shuffle is performing.

    EDIT: Oh yes, and don't call them tutorials. Call them mini-games.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • Deck_Deck_ Members Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Posts: 298 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    @IronHorse

    I would love nothing more than to make this game more accessible. And I have no issue to adapt to change. If that was the problem I would have quit years ago. The problem is we're disagreeing on how to make the game more accessible. You're talking as if the changes the PDT has pushed through are 100% proven to be the right choices. I and many others have argumented against that on many occasions. Yet every time we do, someone will come along and say "Hey, don't be so stubborn, something needs to change" as if that justifies anything. All I'm saying is that I don't agree with the path the PDT is taking. It's possible to make a game more accessible without dumbing it down, which is why I brought up all the neat features Overwatch has.

    Fair enough.

    Does anyone have any suggestions then besides tutorials and youtube videos that won't get played/watched?
    Actual gameplay simplifying that everyone can agree on that can increase accessibility?

    So far I've only seen the devs try it and people responding to it poorly, with no alternatives suggested typically.
    For instance I've heard the recommendation from high skilled players to lessen the size of the skulk model.. I agree with this actually for multiple reasons, but let's not pretend that it won't benefit the better skulks as well as make it less accessible to your average marine.

    Well you could argue most things will help the better players more. If you agree with the smaller skulk model, then let's try it in a play test at least. The thing is, people are not missing skulks up close, so it changes a lot about the game and it makes people feel helpless getting up to a marine. I think you can try the following:

    1) decrease skulk model/hitbox
    2) add visual indicators that promote good behavior on aliens: visual indicator of pack play/ multiple aliens around you. Visual score indicator when you hit an rt that it more noticeable/cool. Visual indicator of how much damage to rt's/marines you have done during your alien life that makes people want to do damage.
    3) add tutorials even though you think they won't be watched. I still think if you had something breaking down skulk play people could direct people to...more and more people would improve.
    Me9a
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    I agree that pretty much everything benefits veterans in one way or another. Its taking different kinds of poison.
    I am also arguing that some of those poisons benefit veterans less then others do. Flat out hp buffs and hitbox bufs are big changes. If even rookies swirl balance around with these changes like its nothing, imagine if the whole server was full vets.

    I also agree, noone has real solutions. Thats why I am always in to try stuff. See what works. Example?
    I really really dislike healthbars. Would it make me stop playing? No.


    But I actually HAVE a sudden idea, which MAY be utter crap. I dont know, lets find out.
    Most players dont know how to play. Perhaps a toggle on ghost forms? Ghost lifeforms (or marines) move ahead of them at times to show how to move and stuff. How to ambush.
    Do this in tutorial, live games, I dont care. A bit like illusions, but just for that player and more useful.

    Yes another tutorial idea.. im sorry.. gotta start with basics.
    You can dumb down the game all you want, you can not balance around stupid. At every step you need a certain minimum of skill and knowhow to achieve anything and everything before that is learning steps.


    Hive sights, true hive sight would be another excellent idea.
    Why was it in NS1? I dunno, but it was GOOD. It relayed 3D world info about stuff directly to everyone. It worked without a map and look, we HAVE a map as aliens.. Its just win win. no downsides.
    It was awful simple to go to the red thing on your scream which was under attack. You didnt always know how to get there, but we could map out routes to take.. Preferably GOOD routes. (So for skulks among walls with small dots indicating jump spots if you try to walljump.)


    Hell since most maps played are well, a small default group you can even script this in detail. Have a rookie mode where a big fat onscreen arrow points to a corner saying "this is a often used ambush spot" to train marines for ambushes for all I care.
    Have a ingame warning for rookies saying something like ''did you know walking this close to another marine makes it easier to kill you both'.
    Have a info thing pop up as fade telling them UP and DOWN are valid directions in a fight, also.

    Not just tutorials, live in game hints.. all under toggles or gradients of info spam.
    No more outside tutorials which takes them out of the action.
    Just point a rookie to it when they startup ns2 so they are aware of it and lets roll.
    NS2
    Old/resigned Dutch Translation Lead. Give feedback about the translation, or help improve by clicking: Current NS2 Dutch translation project. Dutch players apply!
    NS2 Server Maintenance Manual
    WorkshopBackup Manual (WSB Server)
    Ingame: DCDarkling
    'DCDs Steam Workshop', for your NS2 X-Hairs and Viewmodel Weapon mods
    Viewmodels are the ones you hold in your hand, not the one shown in the world!

    Old NS2 Stuff:
    Marine Commander Guide NS2
    Alien Commander Guide NS2
    NS2 Mentor Program
    Old NS1 stuff:
    'Infested Pack v0.6' for models & props
    Darklings Guide to Commanding Version 1.001
    .trixX.
  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    IronHorse wrote: »
    For instance I've heard the recommendation from high skilled players to lessen the size of the skulk model.. I agree with this actually for multiple reasons, but let's not pretend that it won't benefit the better skulks as well as make it less accessible to your average marine.

    I personally don't think that will have any effect at all, provided the hitbox stays the same size.
    4702935.jpg

    This is an olympic 10m air pistol target. Why do you think the inner circle is black, and not the whole? No, it's not eco-friendly to decrease ink. It's much easier to aim accurately when the visible target is smaller
    Post edited by .trixX. on
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 425 Fully active user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Does anyone have any suggestions then besides tutorials and youtube videos that won't get played/watched?
    Yeah. Remove rookie only servers.

    Isolating rookies amongst themselves is a terrible idea. They will get an extremely shifted version of the game for a couple of hours, then suddenly be released into the 'real' game, being utterly destroyed. Yeah they know the very basics by then, but does that REALLY make a difference?

    You're not going to retain the players whose first impression is "WTF, everyone is impossible to kill, HACKERS!", anyway. You're going to retain the players whose first reaction is "WTF, how do I get as good as that?". Might as well start immediately.

  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 864 Advanced user
    You're not going to retain the players whose first impression is "WTF, everyone is impossible to kill, HACKERS!", anyway. You're going to retain the players whose first reaction is "WTF, how do I get as good as that?".

    That seems a contradiction to me... how is a good player hacker on the rookie server, while an inspiration on a regular?
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    He means that the game should appeal to a different kind of player by having them play with people who already know how to play and where they're taught the right way go play right away.
  • PelargirPelargir Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Posts: 1,199 mod
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Does anyone have any suggestions then besides tutorials and youtube videos that won't get played/watched?
    Actual gameplay simplifying that everyone can agree on that can increase accessibility?

    I don't think there exists anything that can achieve that with everyone supporting it.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"

    "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."


    IronHorse
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Posts: 425 Fully active user
    .trixX. wrote: »
    You're not going to retain the players whose first impression is "WTF, everyone is impossible to kill, HACKERS!", anyway. You're going to retain the players whose first reaction is "WTF, how do I get as good as that?".

    That seems a contradiction to me... how is a good player hacker on the rookie server, while an inspiration on a regular?

    That's once rookies play with good players, any server. I meant to say you want the people with the "willing to put effort in" attitude because that's what the game is tailored for. Might as well sort out the trash at the doorstep.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Posts: 387 Advanced user
    There were already lots of good ideas likr challenges which are a bit more elaborated with prices and stuff..todays world is about gamification.. so you need to wrap it up really clever that it doesn't look like a boring lecture about something..
    .trixX.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    dePARA wrote: »
    New Tutorials and Mentor programs inc.

    ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.

    Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.

    The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.

    Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.

    Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
    These guys have never played ns2.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpGxHqwfDb4
    These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlXwGSVHC1U
    This is a full round on a rookie only server.
    http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162

    In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
    _______________________________
    That is what I always say. I copy and paste this. I still believe it. But given the context of the discussion here. Rookie servers, may help, but why are they not more effective?
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    Bicsum
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited July 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    dePARA wrote: »
    New Tutorials and Mentor programs inc.

    ROOKIES DO NOT NEED VETERANS TO TEACH THEM! Coaching and mentor programs have been tried before and have not had any success. This alone is enough to prove that veterans trying to teach rookies has little or no effect on player retention.

    Coaching/mentoring would be unwanted by the majority of rookies. I know this because it already is. Go on any pub server with any amount of rookies and you will have a hard time finding even one that is willing to actually listen to you. These players only play the game for 2 hours and quit forever regardless of any training.

    The people who would benefit the most from coaching are more intermediate players who are willing to seek it out already.

    Coaching, mentoring, or whatever you want to call it is just not worth any time or effort.

    Rookies really do not need veterans to teach them. If you do not believe me watch the videos in this spoiler.
    These guys have never played ns2.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpGxHqwfDb4
    These guys had some minor practice before hand but almost all of them are total rookies.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlXwGSVHC1U
    This is a full round on a rookie only server.
    http://www.twitch.tv/calego/v/38082162

    In those videos you will see that rookies do indeed learn the game on their very own. Sure, they do not play the way we veterans expect them to but that is not the point. Rookies are very new to the game and they do not know what things are. Let them learn at their own pace so that they are more willing to continue learning when they get to regular servers.
    _______________________________
    That is what I always say. I copy and paste this. I still believe it. But given the context of the discussion here. Rookie servers, may help, but why are they not more effective?

    The good old "rookie do not need venterans to teach them" post : ). I'm curious, do you use other templates for posts ? ^^
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