Plus free welder's would screw up the marine economy, and make the initial game start that much harder for aliens since the first engagements don't have any welders at all.
...
-Make welders standard equipment for marines. I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. Because you have buy it from armory it's harder to people to learn to use it. First comm have to build armory and then new player have find thing called welder there, but because there are more cool stuff like shotguns and flamethrowers the new player will not buy a welder.
...
Welding is very much undervalued and I wish people cared more about it but I'm unconvinced that making them standard issue would be for the best in the bigger picture.
Supposing the axe continues to be standard issue, the welder should continue to replace the axe. No new slots or multi-slots, too cumbersome.
Supposing the welder continues to replace the axe and (now) the build tool, the welder should be at least as good as both in every way. A player should never regret getting a welder. Dropping the welder to get the axe or build tool is an ugly hidden mechanic.
If we can agree on that, I'm aware of 3 shortcomings:
Damage. The welder should be at least as effective as the axe in all damage-dealing scenarios.
Build reachability. The welder has always been trickier than the build tool to connect to unbuilt structures when obstacles are near. With the recent changes this is more an issue than ever. Fix this!
Sparking animation hurts framerate and blocks view in a way the build tool doesn't.
These and only these changes are needed for welders.
Having reread my posts, I do not think I am being inconsistent. Maybe I am just not making myself clear.
Tane suggested that welders be standard equipment. This means that they would be free and every marine would have them on spawn. I like this idea and his reasoning. "... I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. ..."
Complimentary to that idea, I think welders should replace the build tool and axe. The welder would match the axe in structure damage, and possibly match the build tool in things ydy mentioned. The welder would continue to be the melee weapon it is right now.
To do the above changes, specifically Tane's suggestion, other things would need to be changed in ns2. Marines would be buffed in how much pres they have. They would also be buffed in how strong they are in engagements. This would need to be balanced out in some other way.
The benefits of these changes would out weigh the cost of having to rebalance some things. Having the welder, build tool, and axe as separate tools does not add any value to the game. All of these tools could be combined into a single tool. This would remove unnecessary complexity from the game. It may not be the only way to remove the hidden mechanic of dropping your welder, but it is the best way I can think of.
The fact that knowledgeable veterans like soul rider, and others I have seen in game do not know about this speaks for itself. This is one area ns2 does need simplifying in.
I've been half paying attention here, so here's my thoughts.
Make Welders a passive upgrade. Either at the Armory or Robo (might be interesting). And buff the welders to do exactly the DPS of an Axe, regardless of the situation. Once Welders are out, you always have one, and you ditch the axe for a More elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
Axes come back when whatever the upgrade is bound to gets destroyed, and you still have your axes before this upgrade becomes a thing. Having to spend tRes on a team-wide Upgrade justifies replacing the axe.
If you must rebalance, make the welder slightly less effective at welding player armor and power nodes, just a time thing.
The benefits of these changes would out weigh the cost of having to rebalance some things. Having the welder, build tool, and axe as separate tools does not add any value to the game. All of these tools could be combined into a single tool. This would remove unnecessary complexity from the game. It may not be the only way to remove the hidden mechanic of dropping your welder, but it is the best way I can think of.
The fact that knowledgeable veterans like soul rider, and others I have seen in game do not know about this speaks for itself. This is one area ns2 does need simplifying in.
We can go back and forth on this till the end of ns2's lifespan, but your idea of it axes or welders being complex is unfounded and soulrider's issue can still be solved without removing anything from the game.
I'm speaking from experience of being an NS1 vet that given the ability to switch to the axe/knife, a player would use the axe/knife over the welder.
Let's take this a step forward, the welder in it's current form is rediculously overpowered beyond the state of something called a tool, it's a pocket flamethrower atm.
The welder is over 3 times stronger than the original in ns1. If you roll back the welder's damage and give the tool it it's own slot, we'll not only clear up this confusion it would also fix how broken the welder is up close in combat.
@IronHorse it was a rhetorical question. My point was that it's never communicated to the player (the cardinal sin that this game commits over and over).
Today I saw a rookie standing staring at a socketed powernode he had just built trying to figure out why it hadn't finished. Saw that one coming haha
Having reread my posts, I do not think I am being inconsistent. Maybe I am just not making myself clear.
Tane suggested that welders be standard equipment. This means that they would be free and every marine would have them on spawn. I like this idea and his reasoning. "... I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. ..."
Complimentary to that idea, I think welders should replace the build tool and axe. The welder would match the axe in structure damage, and possibly match the build tool in things ydy mentioned. The welder would continue to be the melee weapon it is right now.
To do the above changes, specifically Tane's suggestion, other things would need to be changed in ns2. Marines would be buffed in how much pres they have. They would also be buffed in how strong they are in engagements. This would need to be balanced out in some other way.
The benefits of these changes would out weigh the cost of having to rebalance some things. Having the welder, build tool, and axe as separate tools does not add any value to the game. All of these tools could be combined into a single tool. This would remove unnecessary complexity from the game. It may not be the only way to remove the hidden mechanic of dropping your welder, but it is the best way I can think of.
The fact that knowledgeable veterans like soul rider, and others I have seen in game do not know about this speaks for itself. This is one area ns2 does need simplifying in.
Remove marine sprint and reduce marine movement by a few % ... this would reduce the speed marines can get res up and how fast a marine can rotate to an engagement to help his teammate.
So in theory you balance res and how strong they potentially would be in combat.
Edit: Main weapon, pistol, melee, grenades, mines. Proposed change to main weapon, pistol, melee, melee, grenades, mines? That seems inelegant to me.
New proposal: Start with the axe and no welder. Buying welder replaces your 'E' key but not your '3' key. Pressing 3 will still give you your axe, holding 'E' will weld things in the crosshair (regardless of the weapon you have equipped!). Tapping 'E' still interacts with Armory and Command Stations, holding will repair them. Welder no longer does melee damage. Welder retains its purpose as a building/repair tool, axe retains its purpose of superior melee damage, user requires fewer keystrokes/feedback from the game to grok how the welder upgrade works. No need to rebalance the early game resources with this solution as well.
Cons: Welder no longer does melee damage. In the heat of the moment it might be possible to open the Armory instead of repairing it, which could be frustrating. Upon purchasing a welder the first couple of times newer users may be confused because their weapon doesn't automatically switch to it, which is traditionally how you provide feedback of this event. No system is perfect.
Sorry for all the edits. I'm in a stream-of-consciousness mode at the moment.
Edit: Main weapon, pistol, melee, grenades, mines. Proposed change to main weapon, pistol, melee, melee, grenades, mines? That seems inelegant to me.
New proposal: Start with the axe and no welder. Buying welder replaces your 'E' key but not your '3' key. Pressing 3 will still give you your axe, pressing 'E' will weld things in the crosshair. Welder no longer does melee damage.
Having reread my posts, I do not think I am being inconsistent. Maybe I am just not making myself clear.
Tane suggested that welders be standard equipment. This means that they would be free and every marine would have them on spawn. I like this idea and his reasoning. "... I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. ..."
Complimentary to that idea, I think welders should replace the build tool and axe. The welder would match the axe in structure damage, and possibly match the build tool in things ydy mentioned. The welder would continue to be the melee weapon it is right now.
To do the above changes, specifically Tane's suggestion, other things would need to be changed in ns2. Marines would be buffed in how much pres they have. They would also be buffed in how strong they are in engagements. This would need to be balanced out in some other way.
The benefits of these changes would out weigh the cost of having to rebalance some things. Having the welder, build tool, and axe as separate tools does not add any value to the game. All of these tools could be combined into a single tool. This would remove unnecessary complexity from the game. It may not be the only way to remove the hidden mechanic of dropping your welder, but it is the best way I can think of.
The fact that knowledgeable veterans like soul rider, and others I have seen in game do not know about this speaks for itself. This is one area ns2 does need simplifying in.
One thing I was not saying was that to make the welder free, would require changes elsewhere to compensate.
You are not the most objective person are you? You keep saying you want to replace the axe with the welder (thus free), then you say the welder shouldn't be free, and finally you are saying it should be free again!
Edit - Nevermind, I misread that. Missed the not.
And you disagree with me why? You agreed in this post that it needs to be rebalanced if replacing the axe and I am very very sure that it has been nerfed.
HMG is technically not an upgrade though with that reload cycle and bigger spread. If used correctly it is a beast though...
AND IT SOUNDS COOL, TBH it was kinda the iconic weapon from NS with it's looks, sound and reload cycle
Now I haz sad...
I only brought it up because every time we asked for the HMG it was shot down for them supposedly not wanting to make the standard assault rifle obsolete. Which is exactly what would happen to the axe if they changed the welder to match the axe rather than giving the tool it's own slot.
If possible put the welder in weapon slot 4, then grenades and mines in the weapon 5 slot like ns1 did. Even Killing Floor 2 as a new and popular game has no problem using multi-weapon slots.
I like @Sgt_Sass 's suggestion that keeps both axe and welder, yet solves the weapon slot / welder combat role / need to drop the welder issue entirely.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I'm pretty sure we've been over the topic of replacing the use key with welding being a bad idea, it just opens it's own can of worms instead.
Not only that, I still want to be able to run around with the welder out without having the hold the button down. Toggling it would be even worse, and it should still retain some minimal flame damage output. It's funny, back in NS1 welder kills were pretty rare events but now it's been swapped with the axe because the ridiculous buff the welder received.
I haven't heard any reasonable arguments to why being able to switch to the welder a la ns1 is such a bad idea, most of it's been deflection criticizing the need of the axe because how the welder currently takes it's place rather than legitimately discussing why giving the player an option is viewed so badly.
You're trying to make the game simple in areas that it doesn't need to be, no one gets tripped up in the new battlefield games because they can choose between the knife and welder there as an engineer.
I haven't heard any reasonable arguments to why being able to switch to the welder a la ns1 is such a bad idea, most of it's been deflection criticizing the need of the axe because how the welder currently takes it's place rather than legitimately discussing why giving the player an option is viewed so badly.
It is not a bad idea, I just think there is a better idea. I believe I have stated quite clearly why I think it is a better idea.
I don't think I have seen you answer my questions. Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
Sassiness aside, I don't think breaking UI convention for the sake of shoehorning a nostalgic weapon in is good form. Main weapons don't use roulette-style selectors (the screenshot you are showing is exactly that). Secondary weapons don't use roulette-style selectors. None of the aliens use roulette-style selectors to my knowledge. Your suggestion would mean that marine melee and only marine melee use roulette-style selectors. It would be an odd choice for an edge case.
Roulette-style selectors aren't inherently bad, but if you use them for one inventory item you must use them for other inventory items. Not necessarily all of them, but for at least 2 or 3 of them to create consistency in the UI. Otherwise you have a UI element that behaves independently of other - yet still similar - UI elements, creating cognitive dissonance with the user. I am a UX artist so I'm not talking completely out of my ass here.
Comments
Then why did you bring this up?
Welder would be your melee.
How can you say you made a mistake in thinking it went with your suggestion if you're suggesting it to replace the melee weapon you spawn with?
Make up your mind.
Supposing the axe continues to be standard issue, the welder should continue to replace the axe. No new slots or multi-slots, too cumbersome.
Supposing the welder continues to replace the axe and (now) the build tool, the welder should be at least as good as both in every way. A player should never regret getting a welder. Dropping the welder to get the axe or build tool is an ugly hidden mechanic.
If we can agree on that, I'm aware of 3 shortcomings:
These and only these changes are needed for welders.
Strike 2: UWE didn't want any weapon to be a direct upgrade to another one in NS2
Strike 3: The Welder is muscling in on another weapon's territory (axe/knife)
Verdict, the welder is violating the law
Sentence, UWE where is my GoldSrc NS entity list? More Hammer SparkEditor tools pl0x
Having reread my posts, I do not think I am being inconsistent. Maybe I am just not making myself clear.
Tane suggested that welders be standard equipment. This means that they would be free and every marine would have them on spawn. I like this idea and his reasoning. "... I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. ..."
Complimentary to that idea, I think welders should replace the build tool and axe. The welder would match the axe in structure damage, and possibly match the build tool in things ydy mentioned. The welder would continue to be the melee weapon it is right now.
To do the above changes, specifically Tane's suggestion, other things would need to be changed in ns2. Marines would be buffed in how much pres they have. They would also be buffed in how strong they are in engagements. This would need to be balanced out in some other way.
The benefits of these changes would out weigh the cost of having to rebalance some things. Having the welder, build tool, and axe as separate tools does not add any value to the game. All of these tools could be combined into a single tool. This would remove unnecessary complexity from the game. It may not be the only way to remove the hidden mechanic of dropping your welder, but it is the best way I can think of.
The fact that knowledgeable veterans like soul rider, and others I have seen in game do not know about this speaks for itself. This is one area ns2 does need simplifying in.
Make Welders a passive upgrade. Either at the Armory or Robo (might be interesting). And buff the welders to do exactly the DPS of an Axe, regardless of the situation. Once Welders are out, you always have one, and you ditch the axe for a More elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
Axes come back when whatever the upgrade is bound to gets destroyed, and you still have your axes before this upgrade becomes a thing. Having to spend tRes on a team-wide Upgrade justifies replacing the axe.
If you must rebalance, make the welder slightly less effective at welding player armor and power nodes, just a time thing.
We can go back and forth on this till the end of ns2's lifespan, but your idea of it axes or welders being complex is unfounded and soulrider's issue can still be solved without removing anything from the game.
I'm speaking from experience of being an NS1 vet that given the ability to switch to the axe/knife, a player would use the axe/knife over the welder.
Let's take this a step forward, the welder in it's current form is rediculously overpowered beyond the state of something called a tool, it's a pocket flamethrower atm.
Look at these: http://www.unknownworlds.com/oldwebsite/manuals/Natural_Selection_Manual.html
http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Welder
http://wiki.unknownworlds.com/ns2/Switch-Axe
The welder is over 3 times stronger than the original in ns1. If you roll back the welder's damage and give the tool it it's own slot, we'll not only clear up this confusion it would also fix how broken the welder is up close in combat.
"Why does this car have 5 doors when 4 could just as easily suffice? What is the benefit of the fifth door?"
"Because it wouldn't be a 5-door vehicle without the fifth door. Obviously."
Is not a valid argument.
Edit: whoops, read wrong page so now this comment looks stupid! oh well, leaving for posterity.
Today I saw a rookie standing staring at a socketed powernode he had just built trying to figure out why it hadn't finished. Saw that one coming haha
UT had about twelve different weapon binds and it was still easy enough to use, especially with custom binds.
Going from three to FOUR weapon binds is NOT a big deal. For fucks sake, it's not rocket science.
Remove marine sprint and reduce marine movement by a few % ... this would reduce the speed marines can get res up and how fast a marine can rotate to an engagement to help his teammate.
So in theory you balance res and how strong they potentially would be in combat.
Edit: Main weapon, pistol, melee, grenades, mines. Proposed change to main weapon, pistol, melee, melee, grenades, mines? That seems inelegant to me.
New proposal: Start with the axe and no welder. Buying welder replaces your 'E' key but not your '3' key. Pressing 3 will still give you your axe, holding 'E' will weld things in the crosshair (regardless of the weapon you have equipped!). Tapping 'E' still interacts with Armory and Command Stations, holding will repair them. Welder no longer does melee damage. Welder retains its purpose as a building/repair tool, axe retains its purpose of superior melee damage, user requires fewer keystrokes/feedback from the game to grok how the welder upgrade works. No need to rebalance the early game resources with this solution as well.
Cons: Welder no longer does melee damage. In the heat of the moment it might be possible to open the Armory instead of repairing it, which could be frustrating. Upon purchasing a welder the first couple of times newer users may be confused because their weapon doesn't automatically switch to it, which is traditionally how you provide feedback of this event. No system is perfect.
Sorry for all the edits. I'm in a stream-of-consciousness mode at the moment.
The secret secret room on Kodiak comes to mind.
Sure, have a separate bind for welder is one way to do it. What value does ns2 get for having 2 or 3 tools that do the same thing?
You are not the most objective person are you? You keep saying you want to replace the axe with the welder (thus free), then you say the welder shouldn't be free, and finally you are saying it should be free again!
Edit - Nevermind, I misread that. Missed the not.
And you disagree with me why? You agreed in this post that it needs to be rebalanced if replacing the axe and I am very very sure that it has been nerfed.
More like a bicycle and a motorbike. Or an abacus and a calculator.
Five worked well before, it can work well again.
Two of them.
I like @Sgt_Sass 's suggestion that keeps both axe and welder, yet solves the weapon slot / welder combat role / need to drop the welder issue entirely.
Another term for it is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", and well we fixed it alright and now it's broke.
Fix the cause, not the result.
I suggest a new course, captain.
+1 to Sgt_sass
Not only that, I still want to be able to run around with the welder out without having the hold the button down. Toggling it would be even worse, and it should still retain some minimal flame damage output. It's funny, back in NS1 welder kills were pretty rare events but now it's been swapped with the axe because the ridiculous buff the welder received.
I haven't heard any reasonable arguments to why being able to switch to the welder a la ns1 is such a bad idea, most of it's been deflection criticizing the need of the axe because how the welder currently takes it's place rather than legitimately discussing why giving the player an option is viewed so badly.
You're trying to make the game simple in areas that it doesn't need to be, no one gets tripped up in the new battlefield games because they can choose between the knife and welder there as an engineer.
To put it simply:
I don't think I have seen you answer my questions. Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
You still would be able to with what I suggest. Welder would just be permanent, and would keep its weapon slot position.
I've said to much. But it's definitely both a HIGH and a LOW of the ready room.
@IeptBarakat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition Logical fallacy. Does not compute.
Sassiness aside, I don't think breaking UI convention for the sake of shoehorning a nostalgic weapon in is good form. Main weapons don't use roulette-style selectors (the screenshot you are showing is exactly that). Secondary weapons don't use roulette-style selectors. None of the aliens use roulette-style selectors to my knowledge. Your suggestion would mean that marine melee and only marine melee use roulette-style selectors. It would be an odd choice for an edge case.
Roulette-style selectors aren't inherently bad, but if you use them for one inventory item you must use them for other inventory items. Not necessarily all of them, but for at least 2 or 3 of them to create consistency in the UI. Otherwise you have a UI element that behaves independently of other - yet still similar - UI elements, creating cognitive dissonance with the user. I am a UX artist so I'm not talking completely out of my ass here.