I haven't heard any reasonable arguments to why being able to switch to the welder a la ns1 is such a bad idea, most of it's been deflection criticizing the need of the axe because how the welder currently takes it's place rather than legitimately discussing why giving the player an option is viewed so badly.
It is not a bad idea, I just think there is a better idea. I believe I have stated quite clearly why I think it is a better idea.
I don't think I have seen you answer my questions. Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
Not only that, I still want to be able to run around with the welder out without having the hold the button down.
You still would be able to with what I suggest. Welder would just be permanent, and would keep its weapon slot position.
Answers that you don't like aren't answers and get ignored.
How about you answer this? Why do you see the need to rebalance the game over simply adding another weapon slot? Its not a better idea at all. The benefit (singular) of it is what? "Remove complexity". How does this outweigh the cost of rebalancing? Its not a minor thing and unless you want substantial change to the meta of the game, is completely not worth the effort.
The benefit (singular) of it is what? "Remove complexity". How does this outweigh the cost of rebalancing?
Improves accessibility of the game to newer competitive players, potentially increasing the playerbase and the pool of skill from which the game can draw from. Popular games attract more skilled players, a cursory look at Twitch shows that exceptionally skilled and (perhaps more importantly) popular players are more likely to trial a game with a streamlined design and a growing playerbase than a stagnant one with a dwindling playerbase. Other players watch these streamers and get inspired to purchase the game themselves, generating additional revenue for UWE. Additional revenue for UWE translates into more man-hours getting pumped into the game. This results in more frequent patches. Presumably more frequent patching will result in more frequent improvements to the game, resulting in a better game.
I want to play a better game, ergo it's worth the effort to find a feasible solution.
I don't get all the calls that this is a problem. How often do you guys even see people welding alien structures, victory hive kill aside? I don't. At all.
I get if you want to change the meta and then change welders and axes with it. I can deal with that. What I don't get is changing the meta FOR changing welders and axe.
Sassiness aside, I don't think breaking UI convention for the sake of shoehorning a nostalgic weapon in is good form. Main weapons don't use roulette-style selectors (the screenshot you are showing is exactly that). Secondary weapons don't use roulette-style selectors. None of the aliens use roulette-style selectors to my knowledge. Your suggestion would mean that marine melee and only marine melee use roulette-style selectors. It would be an odd choice for an edge case.
Roulette-style selectors aren't inherently bad, but if you use them for one inventory item you must use them for other inventory items. Not necessarily all of them, but for at least 2 or 3 of them to create consistency in the UI. Otherwise you have a UI element that behaves independently of other - yet still similar - UI elements, creating cognitive dissonance with the user. I am a UX artist so I'm not talking completely out of my ass here.
A team having a different ui isn't going to end the world, especially for something as small as multiple weapons per slot, which is something that is ingrained into most pc gamers by now due to the popularity of Valve games. If you really need it for both teams, the Gorge would be the best option to use it on.
Also welders aren't melee weapons, they're close range projectiles.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2016
Alright that's it, let's take a step back... What is the first thing which comes to mind when thinking of a welder?
Welder
- It is a worker/support tool
- Repairing damaged metals
- Welding through doors and welds on the map
- It burns stuff, logical target are small seemingly fragile cysts
Axe
- It's used for cutting hard things (taking down trees -> heavily armored alien structures)
- It's a sharp tool, which can be used to hurt fleshy targets (horror movies tell the story, I dare you to find a WelderMonster in one of those! Go on!)
- It's not a knife
Well peeps, there ya have it. Logic > your arguments. Now slap that stuff in a weapon slot or I'm gonna slap you lot! I mean HOW is THIS even a point of discussion (friggin' theorycrafting), tried and true methods in an oldschool game as NS2. WTF is wrong with this picture! Weaponslots vs complexity my ass Let's add another Hidden Game Mechanic™ instead, +use is now welder, but hey where did my Axe go? Uhuh, ya gotta drop yar Welder to use your Axe...............
Where in this thread did I say that we should make changes exclusively for the sake of adding new stuff? Show me.
I said that change was needed and then gave my reasons why with regards to player psychology and existing video game UI conventions.
A team having a different ui isn't going to end the world,
I probably didn't explain that as well as I could have. What I mean to say isn't that both teams need to be symmetrical in a UI sense. What I mean is that if you have one weapon slot that is using a roulette selector then you must have that style of UI elsewhere in the game. That could mean that marine primary weapons are roulette as well (being able to hold both the assault rifle and shotgun on the '1' key, for example, or binding the pistol and some other secondary weapon to the '2' slot). Is it going to end the world? Of course not! Don't be so dramatic you big silly goose. But what you are describing is a huge taboo in the world of UI. You don't make a unique piece of UI to handle an edge case. It's a waste of code and a waste of cognitive power from the player. It's an additional 'thing' they need to remember.
That isn't inherently bad, and I think I've already stated this before but I'll reiterate it so as not to ruffle feathers, but it is inelegant.
By the way, I am not suggesting this: "being able to hold both the assault rifle and shotgun on the '1' key, for example, or binding the pistol and some other secondary weapon to the '2' slot" I am just using it to illustrate my point. Sorry for the confusion.
Perhaps a better way to put it is binding the rifle/pistol weapons to '1', binding the axe/welder weapons to '2' and binding grenades/mines to '3'. UI must be consistent or it won't be understood clearly by the player.
How often do you guys even see people welding alien structures, victory hive kill aside? I don't. At all.
I see it almost every night I play. This is besides the point, but I have had veterans tell me they would rather weld then go through the trouble of dropping the welder.
I don't mean I only see veterans doing it. There just seems to always be someone.
How often do you guys even see people welding alien structures, victory hive kill aside? I don't. At all.
I see it almost every night I play. This is besides the point, but I have had veterans tell me they would rather weld then go through the trouble of dropping the welder.
Well, I have several even less polite than usual things to say about that, but I'm just going to say you just convinced me never to go on TGNS again.
Just allow people to hit weopon slot 1 to switch between weilder/axe... The end.
As for the color coded hit types.... Maybe, just give more detailed tool tips when buying weopons as to what type of damage they deal....It might also be worth noting that most have no clue as to what type of damage they should be dealing...or to what.
From these recent posts. it seems like axes should be better at clearing cyst, but weilders are...
@IeptBarakat Roulette style UI isn't something I am against by the way, what I am against is using the roulette for a single edge case. I think doing what you're suggesting can work, because it has worked in other games. The difference being that those other games used roulette UI elsewhere. It wasn't a one-off thing. Creating one-off code is inefficient and negatively affects performance.
Option: Remove buildtool and make welders the starting item, will require some balancing(as already mentioned) but would be worth it in my opinion
Special Slot, Carry one or the other seems fine to me, especially once somebody decides to make nades more than a gimmick for when you either have too much res, or when you are trapped in your base and you might as well waste it on some fun particle effects, you wont be able to afford another shotgun before its over anyway.
(e.g. by reducing weaponswap time to nades, removing the useless cluster part from the explosive nade, changing pulse nade to knockback or desorient if looked at by affected players in its aoe radius... stuff like that)
How often do you guys even see people welding alien structures, victory hive kill aside?
I see rookies do this all the time??
Shrug, I avoid rookies like the plague but I do see some (they are everywhere) and I cannot relate. I guess I should change my mind on TGNS, rookies with welders instead of 50-70 pres asking for flamethrowers and exos? That's a major improvement.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I don't get why people think the multiple weapons would confuse players.
I know players can be simple, but I've yet to see a Gorge fail to build anything because they couldn't figure out they had to select another option after pressing 2 for the build menu...
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
The closest relation to the babbler ball is the antlion bait from hl2. If you want to get rid of the bait ball you could add it's functionality to spit.
Spit at enemy structure or player, babblers attack target. Spit at alien, babblers attach to alien. Spit underneath yourself, and babblers attach to you. If the babbler attaches to something, they cannot be removed until they die. Babblers follow you around like normal.
Cons: Lose the ability to direct babblers to a specific location, otherwise they would run off each time you miss your spit.
Potential idea: Spit below yourself or at a friendly player again to remove the babblers currently attached.
Just make sure to teach the player these things or else it would be another hidden mechanic.
@Soul_Rider So you've never seen a rookie gorge spewing out babbler bait balls or launching bile bomb on marines thinking they were a weapon??
That is more of an issue with the weapons not being clear in what they do. They look like weapons, but are just smelly balls...
Those balls are seriously a problem. As far as I can tell they confuse a lot of rookies.
Yep. Honestly, remove babblers. They aren't worth shit.
Remove babbler bait, use the babbler bombs from combat. They were pretty neat. (Make them so you can shoot them out of the air, though.)
The main reason to not use babblers is that they are pretty expensive, imo. Better save for onos.
There's nothing salvageable about babblers. They are worthless trash. Babblerbombs are no different. Use that development time on something useful, rather than attempt to revive re-design a useless piece of content that no one gives a crap about anyway.
Let them stay as assets in the spark engine for modders to jerk off to. But remove them from vanilla ns2 and compmod.
Let's cut our losses on this one already..
Edit. I'm sorry I should've been more clear. You can't revive something that never lived in the first place.
@Soul_Rider So you've never seen a rookie gorge spewing out babbler bait balls or launching bile bomb on marines thinking they were a weapon??
I STILL don't know how the hell to spawn babblers, and I spend most of my alien playing time as a gorge (other than skulk of course). You can't blame sub-menus for an unfathomable game-mechanic. Unlike you to be so obtuse with an argument @IronHorse
I know players can be simple, but I've yet to see a Gorge fail to build anything because they couldn't figure out they had to select another option after pressing 2 for the build menu...
I STILL don't know how the hell to spawn babblers, and I spend most of my alien playing time as a gorge (other than skulk of course). You can't blame sub-menus for an unfathomable game-mechanic.
I know players can be simple, but I've yet to see a Gorge fail to build anything because they couldn't figure out they had to select another option after pressing 2 for the build menu...
I might be a rook but I dont see babblers used except by me.... this teaches me that they are completely useless because people who knows what is what only use bile bomb/spit and heal spray... very rarely I see a commander bother researching webs, and past a certain point marines all have welders making them uttly useless as well...
Gorge abilities do need a serious rework in these areas as do spores for the lerk.... why does this not operate like a DMG version of Umbra? at the point commanders have them everyone is weilding flame throwers and shotguns making them extremely difficult to get off in any useful manner, I mean there negated by flame throwers and EXO's can just ignore them having them a melle based spray nullifies there effectiveness completely which is to punish bunched up clumps of marines, I do think lerk should operate as ranged support, also the mild poison effect on a lerks bite can we have those on its ranged spines as well?
as for the marines, I kinda wish there was a third weapon type for the exo's possibly something akin to a shotgun or flak cannon and the choice to double on any other weapon for duel, aka Minigun/railgun combo as much as I love fisting a fade to death, the lack of close range firepower is a shame from a tactical choice perspective.
Comments
Answers that you don't like aren't answers and get ignored.
How about you answer this? Why do you see the need to rebalance the game over simply adding another weapon slot? Its not a better idea at all. The benefit (singular) of it is what? "Remove complexity". How does this outweigh the cost of rebalancing? Its not a minor thing and unless you want substantial change to the meta of the game, is completely not worth the effort.
Improves accessibility of the game to newer competitive players, potentially increasing the playerbase and the pool of skill from which the game can draw from. Popular games attract more skilled players, a cursory look at Twitch shows that exceptionally skilled and (perhaps more importantly) popular players are more likely to trial a game with a streamlined design and a growing playerbase than a stagnant one with a dwindling playerbase. Other players watch these streamers and get inspired to purchase the game themselves, generating additional revenue for UWE. Additional revenue for UWE translates into more man-hours getting pumped into the game. This results in more frequent patches. Presumably more frequent patching will result in more frequent improvements to the game, resulting in a better game.
I want to play a better game, ergo it's worth the effort to find a feasible solution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty
I don't get all the calls that this is a problem. How often do you guys even see people welding alien structures, victory hive kill aside? I don't. At all.
I get if you want to change the meta and then change welders and axes with it. I can deal with that. What I don't get is changing the meta FOR changing welders and axe.
Oh no, a wikipedia link. I like Aeglos's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty response.
A team having a different ui isn't going to end the world, especially for something as small as multiple weapons per slot, which is something that is ingrained into most pc gamers by now due to the popularity of Valve games. If you really need it for both teams, the Gorge would be the best option to use it on.
Also welders aren't melee weapons, they're close range projectiles.
Welder
- It is a worker/support tool
- Repairing damaged metals
- Welding through doors and welds on the map
- It burns stuff, logical target are small seemingly fragile cysts
Axe
- It's used for cutting hard things (taking down trees -> heavily armored alien structures)
- It's a sharp tool, which can be used to hurt fleshy targets (horror movies tell the story, I dare you to find a WelderMonster in one of those! Go on!)
- It's not a knife
Well peeps, there ya have it. Logic > your arguments. Now slap that stuff in a weapon slot or I'm gonna slap you lot! I mean HOW is THIS even a point of discussion (friggin' theorycrafting), tried and true methods in an oldschool game as NS2. WTF is wrong with this picture! Weaponslots vs complexity my ass
Seems legit!
I said that change was needed and then gave my reasons why with regards to player psychology and existing video game UI conventions.
I probably didn't explain that as well as I could have. What I mean to say isn't that both teams need to be symmetrical in a UI sense. What I mean is that if you have one weapon slot that is using a roulette selector then you must have that style of UI elsewhere in the game. That could mean that marine primary weapons are roulette as well (being able to hold both the assault rifle and shotgun on the '1' key, for example, or binding the pistol and some other secondary weapon to the '2' slot). Is it going to end the world? Of course not! Don't be so dramatic you big silly goose. But what you are describing is a huge taboo in the world of UI. You don't make a unique piece of UI to handle an edge case. It's a waste of code and a waste of cognitive power from the player. It's an additional 'thing' they need to remember.
That isn't inherently bad, and I think I've already stated this before but I'll reiterate it so as not to ruffle feathers, but it is inelegant.
Perhaps a better way to put it is binding the rifle/pistol weapons to '1', binding the axe/welder weapons to '2' and binding grenades/mines to '3'. UI must be consistent or it won't be understood clearly by the player.
1st Slot (Attacks)
- Spit
- Bile Bomb
2nd Slot (Free Structures)
- Clogs
- Webs -make free-
3rd Slot (Paid Structures)
- Hydra
- Gorge Tunnel
4th Slot (Babblers) -Babblers need a rework-
- Babbler Egg
- Babbler Ball
It's currently two per, but it leaves room to add more without a bloated buy menu.
I don't mean I only see veterans doing it. There just seems to always be someone.
Well, I have several even less polite than usual things to say about that, but I'm just going to say you just convinced me never to go on TGNS again.
As for the color coded hit types.... Maybe, just give more detailed tool tips when buying weopons as to what type of damage they deal....It might also be worth noting that most have no clue as to what type of damage they should be dealing...or to what.
From these recent posts. it seems like axes should be better at clearing cyst, but weilders are...
The way i would like it changed...
Remove +use to build mechanic. (=> just weapon swap to the thing you wish to use)
1. Primary Slot - Lmg, Sg, etc.
2. Secondary Slot - Pistol
3. Melee Slot - Axe
4. Build/Repair Slot - Buildtool, Welder (reduce dmg to 4)
5. Special/Explosive Slot - Mines OR Nades
Option: Remove buildtool and make welders the starting item, will require some balancing(as already mentioned) but would be worth it in my opinion
Special Slot, Carry one or the other seems fine to me, especially once somebody decides to make nades more than a gimmick for when you either have too much res, or when you are trapped in your base and you might as well waste it on some fun particle effects, you wont be able to afford another shotgun before its over anyway.
(e.g. by reducing weaponswap time to nades, removing the useless cluster part from the explosive nade, changing pulse nade to knockback or desorient if looked at by affected players in its aoe radius... stuff like that)
Shrug, I avoid rookies like the plague but I do see some (they are everywhere) and I cannot relate. I guess I should change my mind on TGNS, rookies with welders instead of 50-70 pres asking for flamethrowers and exos? That's a major improvement.
I know players can be simple, but I've yet to see a Gorge fail to build anything because they couldn't figure out they had to select another option after pressing 2 for the build menu...
That is more of an issue with the weapons not being clear in what they do. They look like weapons, but are just smelly balls...
Those balls are seriously a problem. As far as I can tell they confuse a lot of rookies.
Spit at enemy structure or player, babblers attack target. Spit at alien, babblers attach to alien. Spit underneath yourself, and babblers attach to you. If the babbler attaches to something, they cannot be removed until they die. Babblers follow you around like normal.
Cons: Lose the ability to direct babblers to a specific location, otherwise they would run off each time you miss your spit.
Potential idea: Spit below yourself or at a friendly player again to remove the babblers currently attached.
Just make sure to teach the player these things or else it would be another hidden mechanic.
Yep. Honestly, remove babblers. They aren't worth shit.
Remove babbler bait, use the babbler bombs from combat. They were pretty neat. (Make them so you can shoot them out of the air, though.)
The main reason to not use babblers is that they are pretty expensive, imo. Better save for onos.
Let them stay as assets in the spark engine for modders to jerk off to. But remove them from vanilla ns2 and compmod.
Let's cut our losses on this one already..
Edit. I'm sorry I should've been more clear. You can't revive something that never lived in the first place.
I STILL don't know how the hell to spawn babblers, and I spend most of my alien playing time as a gorge (other than skulk of course). You can't blame sub-menus for an unfathomable game-mechanic. Unlike you to be so obtuse with an argument @IronHorse
Your position confuses me ...
Now I'm confused as to what your point is, I guess.
Gorge abilities do need a serious rework in these areas as do spores for the lerk.... why does this not operate like a DMG version of Umbra? at the point commanders have them everyone is weilding flame throwers and shotguns making them extremely difficult to get off in any useful manner, I mean there negated by flame throwers and EXO's can just ignore them having them a melle based spray nullifies there effectiveness completely which is to punish bunched up clumps of marines, I do think lerk should operate as ranged support, also the mild poison effect on a lerks bite can we have those on its ranged spines as well?
as for the marines, I kinda wish there was a third weapon type for the exo's possibly something akin to a shotgun or flak cannon and the choice to double on any other weapon for duel, aka Minigun/railgun combo as much as I love fisting a fade to death, the lack of close range firepower is a shame from a tactical choice perspective.