HMG is technically not an upgrade though with that reload cycle and bigger spread. If used correctly it is a beast though...
AND IT SOUNDS COOL, TBH it was kinda the iconic weapon from NS with it's looks, sound and reload cycle
Now I haz sad...
I only brought it up because every time we asked for the HMG it was shot down for them supposedly not wanting to make the standard assault rifle obsolete. Which is exactly what would happen to the axe if they changed the welder to match the axe rather than giving the tool it's own slot.
If possible put the welder in weapon slot 4, then grenades and mines in the weapon 5 slot like ns1 did. Even Killing Floor 2 as a new and popular game has no problem using multi-weapon slots.
At the same time, make welders do structural damage type so that players out of ammo (or conserving) won't be at a deficit because they didn't know to drop their welder to use an axe instead.
The welder should stay as it is and be switchable alongside the axe a la ns1. Why? Because the welder shouldn't be an upgrade to the axe or else we could have had the Heavy Machine Gun ages ago.
The welder is an upgrade to the axe is nearly every way. Its one downside, that it does not do structural damage is mitigated by dropping it and using the axe which is a terrible hidden mechanic.
At the same time, make welders do structural damage type so that players out of ammo (or conserving) won't be at a deficit because they didn't know to drop their welder to use an axe instead.
The welder should stay as it is and be switchable alongside the axe a la ns1. Why? Because the welder shouldn't be an upgrade to the axe or else we could have had the Heavy Machine Gun ages ago.
The welder is an upgrade to the axe is nearly every way. Its one downside, that it does not do structural damage is mitigated by dropping it and using the axe which is a terrible hidden mechanic.
Which is why we should fix it, by being able to switch to the axe without dropping it.
The welder and the axe serve the same role. The welder and the build tool serve the same role. The roles overlap a lot. This is silly at best, and confusing at worst.
I suggest that the axe and build tool be removed, and both be replaced by the welder. The welder will be free standard equipment for every marine. This would encourage welding.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
They don't serve the same role, they clearly have their own advantages and disadvantages, the only reason why you assume they do is because UWE made it so the welder overlaps the axe. If it has had it's own slot like it should have had since day 1, none of this confusion would have taken place.
The axe isn't useless, it's just that the axe is gimped tbh, in ns1 the knife was a sword and worth using, in ns2 the axe is a 0range piece of crap that takes too long to pull out in battle (although i do get a shitload of axe kills on Australian servers) but the point is it's not useless if you know how to use it, would be nice to be able to switch between the two, sometimes i drop my welder to axe resource towers because the welder is so silent and i want to bait the skulks while axing.
It's all about how you play with your environment - Jackie Chan / Me
Why I have two tools/weapons when you can have one that does the same thing?
That flawed logic is why we almost had a taser instead of a pistol. The Axe has it's purpose, the Welder does too, no logical reason why we need to consolidate them into one entity when you should be able to switch to one or the other.
Plus free welder's would screw up the marine economy, and make the initial game start that much harder for aliens since the first engagements don't have any welders at all.
Plus free welder's would screw up the marine economy, and make the initial game start that much harder for aliens since the first engagements don't have any welders at all.
...
-Make welders standard equipment for marines. I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. Because you have buy it from armory it's harder to people to learn to use it. First comm have to build armory and then new player have find thing called welder there, but because there are more cool stuff like shotguns and flamethrowers the new player will not buy a welder.
...
Plus free welder's would screw up the marine economy, and make the initial game start that much harder for aliens since the first engagements don't have any welders at all.
...
-Make welders standard equipment for marines. I don't understand why so basic and important part of the game is buyable. Because you have buy it from armory it's harder to people to learn to use it. First comm have to build armory and then new player have find thing called welder there, but because there are more cool stuff like shotguns and flamethrowers the new player will not buy a welder.
...
I'm sorry there isn't a button where it says I only partly agree. Here's the stuff I agreed with in his post.
-Make skulk sneaking (when you press shift) faster. It almost unusable currently because it's slow compared to marines normal pace. In NS1 it was much faster and made ambushing easier and more fun. I think many new players find it frustrating that unit that is supposed to based on ambushing and sneaking doesn't do those things really well.
-Remove sprint, reduce speed, or give it bigger drawpack. I have never seen the point in sprint in NS2, it only makes the game more complicated and unbalanced, but if are not going to remove it at least make it worse. One the core balance problems of NS2 is that mobility levels of marines and aliens are too close to each others. Aliens should have bigger advantage than marines in this area.
-Increase cost of medpacks to 2 or 1.5. I think main frustrating for new players come from skulk vs. marine combat. This is way too unbalanced for marine favor and one way to balance that is to make constant med support more costly for marine team.
-Make skulk smaller. The most important change you could make to this game and which would solve so many problems, but I guess you will never do this.
At the same time, make welders do structural damage type so that players out of ammo (or conserving) won't be at a deficit because they didn't know to drop their welder to use an axe instead.
The welder should stay as it is and be switchable alongside the axe a la ns1. Why? Because the welder shouldn't be an upgrade to the axe or else we could have had the Heavy Machine Gun ages ago.
The welder is an upgrade to the axe is nearly every way. Its one downside, that it does not do structural damage is mitigated by dropping it and using the axe which is a terrible hidden mechanic.
The axe's hidden damage modifier to buildings is really silly. More often times than not it just results in some jerk stealing my welder while I attempt to harass the enemy's economy. Considering the only depth it adds to the game is a Google search, I am not a fan.
If the idea of carrying a welder instead of an axe is too emasculating for you maybe we can compromise - how about a hammer?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited February 2016
Make the damage types more visible to players, have the axe be switchable to and not have to be dropped to use, and give the axe the 250% damage against structures (currently 200%) and it'll be relevant again.
The axe not being used is a symptom of a problem and not the solution to it. I prefer going through the steps of improving readability/easability before dumbing down and removing certain aspects of the game.
Hypothetically what's wrong with a welder doing equal DPS to structures as the axe?
It costs 3res AND it's better at killing skulks than the axe.
Apparently nonlinear tech progression is too complicated for the average gamer and is a hidden mechanic?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
You'd run out of colors.
@meatmachine Damage types have their place in ensuring finite balance.
For just one example if you removed them: Fades would be good at everything (instead of being lousy at structural/armor dmg) and you'd see the return of fade balls again.
There's dozens more examples like this, and the consequences that would follow. Communicating damage types aren't really necessary, either imo.. it's excessive information to a degree, considering a player will quickly determine that their fade or lerk spikes etc don't do structural damage very well anyways.
For mechanics that overlap like welders and axes it does create a bit of a noobtrap (welding an enemy RT).. but that's because there's an overlap that should be resolved anyways.
In cases without overlap the damage types are working as intended.
@IeptBarakat The axe is obsolete, save for one difference that can easily be changed... so why hold onto it so desperately in the name of added complexity (an extra slot, tool, for no reason)? Is it just nostalgia?
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
@IronHorse Seriously, what is complex about an axe being strong against structures and a welder using the flame damage type? A noobtrap is created by the game failing to give adequate information to a player, which is exactly why we need a better interface and to display damage types.
People complain about having to drop welders to use the axe and having other players pick up their welders? Let them switch to the axe without dropping it.
People complain about other players welding structures? Show them the axe is better at it.
Make the damage types more visible to players, have the axe be switchable to and not have to be dropped to use, and give the axe the 250% damage against structures (currently 200%) and it'll be relevant again.
The axe not being used is a symptom of a problem and not the solution to it. I prefer going through the steps of improving readability/easability before dumbing down and removing certain aspects of the game.
I am not giving a solution because the axe is not used. My solution is aimed to reduce unnecessary complexity. You did not answer my question, so I will ask again. Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
@IronHorse Seriously, what is complex about an axe being strong against structures and a welder using the flame damage type? A noobtrap is created by the game failing to give adequate information to a player, which is exactly why we need a better interface and to display damage types.
People complain about having to drop welders to use the axe and having other players pick up their welders? Let them switch to the axe without dropping it.
People complain about other players welding structures? Show them the axe is better at it.
Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
I axe things in solo pressure all the time. Not reloading can be great
Exactly. So do I. The welder could hypothetically do the same thing if its structural damage was increased.
Now @Aeglos, I am not 100% positive what you are pointing out there. Are you saying that axe doing better structural damage is an example of the value it adds?
To finish off this post, here is a fun video showing the power of the welder.
The axe sucks anyways. Make a server with cheats, spawn a fade. Get on it's head and swing down with your axe. Good luck hitting it.
The axe and welder should do the same structural damage, and welders should be able to clear cysts pretty quickly. We had this in compmod, but the last patch with welder draw on use made this change unsustainable.
Make the damage types more visible to players, have the axe be switchable to and not have to be dropped to use, and give the axe the 250% damage against structures (currently 200%) and it'll be relevant again.
The axe not being used is a symptom of a problem and not the solution to it. I prefer going through the steps of improving readability/easability before dumbing down and removing certain aspects of the game.
I am not giving a solution because the axe is not used. My solution is aimed to reduce unnecessary complexity. You did not answer my question, so I will ask again. Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
Having access to two damage types instead of one, you can't make two to one without losing the benefit of having two. Plus starting with welders would be a crazy buff to the marines, they might as well have regenerating armor at that point. Everything else I can say is merely preference, like the welder being extremely dull to use and empty sounding, and losing out on fun melee skins to monetize down the line.
You can make it simpler to use and understand without losing options or changing the current balance.
Plus I'd go as far to say that the fire cone on welders should be nerfed, it's pretty crazy how much you can get away with while holding the button down as well as it being hard to weld structures pass players because they are getting priority due to it's size.
That video is exactly why the welder as a 'last resort weapon' is retarded.... The REASON why the axe and welder should fill different roles is because the welder deals damage over time, where the axe actually takes some timing and aim to land.
I love how that silly 'feature' has gone unfixed as long as it has, and that people actively and publicly abuse it... Nice.
Having access to two damage types instead of one, you can't make two to one without losing the benefit of having two.
Uhhh.. Yes you can? Why can't the welder have flaming damage and structural damage?
I am not sold on providing welders for free just yet, that is a separate discussion.
As for personal preference between interacting with them, I tend to agree with you there, the welder sound and effects are lacking. (Wish we had a very subtle TF2 medgun effect)
You answered your own question before you asked it.
The welder is an upgrade over the axe. That's fairly important. Replacing it is a straight buff to marines both with regards to res flow and weld timings. Also, emergency melee combat. If I recall correctly, it has already been nerfed before due to its high combat potential.
But yes, you can continue to treat it as exactly the same except as a liability for axing harvesters.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yes.
As it is, the "sidegrade" can be cumbersome at best and a noobtrap at worst - and frankly there's not much reason not to make it a direct upgrade given the Pres spent on it.
Giving it its own weapon slot does not address the trap, and mildly addresses the cumbersome aspect. (we are in the simplifying gameplay thread, here aren't we?)
Balance wise, what's the cost to doing this? The only thing I can think of is the time taken to drop the welder, which is negligible.
So it simplifies gameplay with little to no balance impact... I am not seeing the "buff"?
Comments
I only brought it up because every time we asked for the HMG it was shot down for them supposedly not wanting to make the standard assault rifle obsolete. Which is exactly what would happen to the axe if they changed the welder to match the axe rather than giving the tool it's own slot.
If possible put the welder in weapon slot 4, then grenades and mines in the weapon 5 slot like ns1 did. Even Killing Floor 2 as a new and popular game has no problem using multi-weapon slots.
Which is why we should fix it, by being able to switch to the axe without dropping it.
I suggest that the axe and build tool be removed, and both be replaced by the welder. The welder will be free standard equipment for every marine. This would encourage welding.
It's all about how you play with your environment - Jackie Chan / Me
Why I have two tools/weapons when you can have one that does the same thing?
That flawed logic is why we almost had a taser instead of a pistol. The Axe has it's purpose, the Welder does too, no logical reason why we need to consolidate them into one entity when you should be able to switch to one or the other.
Plus free welder's would screw up the marine economy, and make the initial game start that much harder for aliens since the first engagements don't have any welders at all.
You say this, but you agreed with Tane's post.
I'm sorry there isn't a button where it says I only partly agree. Here's the stuff I agreed with in his post.
If the idea of carrying a welder instead of an axe is too emasculating for you maybe we can compromise - how about a hammer?
The axe not being used is a symptom of a problem and not the solution to it. I prefer going through the steps of improving readability/easability before dumbing down and removing certain aspects of the game.
It costs 3res AND it's better at killing skulks than the axe.
Apparently nonlinear tech progression is too complicated for the average gamer and is a hidden mechanic?
This, a thousand times this.
Why even HAVE damage types in the game, if they're never made visible to the player.
...colored damage numbers (depending on type and thus efficiency) would be a pretty neat thing, actually.
@meatmachine Damage types have their place in ensuring finite balance.
For just one example if you removed them: Fades would be good at everything (instead of being lousy at structural/armor dmg) and you'd see the return of fade balls again.
There's dozens more examples like this, and the consequences that would follow. Communicating damage types aren't really necessary, either imo.. it's excessive information to a degree, considering a player will quickly determine that their fade or lerk spikes etc don't do structural damage very well anyways.
For mechanics that overlap like welders and axes it does create a bit of a noobtrap (welding an enemy RT).. but that's because there's an overlap that should be resolved anyways.
In cases without overlap the damage types are working as intended.
@IeptBarakat The axe is obsolete, save for one difference that can easily be changed... so why hold onto it so desperately in the name of added complexity (an extra slot, tool, for no reason)? Is it just nostalgia?
People complain about having to drop welders to use the axe and having other players pick up their welders? Let them switch to the axe without dropping it.
People complain about other players welding structures? Show them the axe is better at it.
Why should welder and axe be separate tools? What value does this add over having just one tool?
Exactly. So do I. The welder could hypothetically do the same thing if its structural damage was increased.
Now @Aeglos, I am not 100% positive what you are pointing out there. Are you saying that axe doing better structural damage is an example of the value it adds?
To finish off this post, here is a fun video showing the power of the welder.
The axe and welder should do the same structural damage, and welders should be able to clear cysts pretty quickly. We had this in compmod, but the last patch with welder draw on use made this change unsustainable.
Having access to two damage types instead of one, you can't make two to one without losing the benefit of having two. Plus starting with welders would be a crazy buff to the marines, they might as well have regenerating armor at that point. Everything else I can say is merely preference, like the welder being extremely dull to use and empty sounding, and losing out on fun melee skins to monetize down the line.
You can make it simpler to use and understand without losing options or changing the current balance.
Plus I'd go as far to say that the fire cone on welders should be nerfed, it's pretty crazy how much you can get away with while holding the button down as well as it being hard to weld structures pass players because they are getting priority due to it's size.
I love how that silly 'feature' has gone unfixed as long as it has, and that people actively and publicly abuse it... Nice.
I am not sold on providing welders for free just yet, that is a separate discussion.
As for personal preference between interacting with them, I tend to agree with you there, the welder sound and effects are lacking. (Wish we had a very subtle TF2 medgun effect)
You answered your own question before you asked it.
The welder is an upgrade over the axe. That's fairly important. Replacing it is a straight buff to marines both with regards to res flow and weld timings. Also, emergency melee combat. If I recall correctly, it has already been nerfed before due to its high combat potential.
But yes, you can continue to treat it as exactly the same except as a liability for axing harvesters.
People are calling the welder an upgrade(something UWE wanted to avoid) to the axe, and you want to buff it even more?
As it is, the "sidegrade" can be cumbersome at best and a noobtrap at worst - and frankly there's not much reason not to make it a direct upgrade given the Pres spent on it.
Giving it its own weapon slot does not address the trap, and mildly addresses the cumbersome aspect. (we are in the simplifying gameplay thread, here aren't we?)
Balance wise, what's the cost to doing this? The only thing I can think of is the time taken to drop the welder, which is negligible.
So it simplifies gameplay with little to no balance impact... I am not seeing the "buff"?