My stance is this: the game doesn't even need to be dumbed down or simplified much, if at all.
the issue is that the basics of the game that need communicating are not things like "marines can buy shotguns for 20 res once they are researched by the commander", but are the concepts of laning, zoning, and that defense IE waiting for where you know a skulk should show up are equally as important (and often net you just as many kills) as running into the hive and shooting eggs like a 1337 pr0 h4x0r.
moreover, these concepts are NEVER EVER COMMUNICATED IN THE GAMES LITERATURE.
The game's basics do not need simplifying, they simply need communicating in some capacity by the base game, taking this burden off of veteran players.
My post at the top of the page covers the communication aspect for the marine upgrade meta, which is a huge aspect of the game that for many pub servers has been stuck in the PGs-first era since the launch of the game. This is unacceptable!
Managing player expectations hasnt been done very well. I've seen green players ragequit because the "shadow things" just insta-kills them when they are 0/1 marines. 0/1 marines are not supposed to kill fades really. Highlighting the asymetrical nature, and the fact that some combats cannot be won, could have a positive effect.
This is an important observation.
Kinda makes me feel like there should be better feedback to manage expectations of engagements.
FOR EG-
When lerks pop, or when a player first damages a lerk, trigger a global alert for marines- "They have evolved lerks, we're gonna need stronger weapons upgrades or some shotguns to deal with these things..."
or when fades are first encountered and marines A<2 "These fades are ripping us to shreds, we need more armor! Dont try to engage alone!"
Or similarly for aliens when someone first dies to shotgun, "they have BOOMsticks! Be wary of them *incoherant gurgling*"
I would say just in rookie mode, but frankly this kind of thing would be useful at most pub skill levels, keeping players in check and reducing the need for players to be listening/ paying attention when someone quietly whispers "lerks popped" over voice chat.
It also would give players not-so-subtle hints as to the marine upgrade meta which is something I see even longer-term players struggling with.
Similar feedback (ideally in addition to a short tutorial consisting of some simple animations illustrating lane filling and basic rotations) for macro positioning is vital to ever get this basic, basic stuff across. Basic stuff that I didnt become aware of until like, 800 hours of playing the game? I say it's basic because as soon as you DO know "that's how its supposed to go", it's completely easy and obvious.
The base mechanics are not complicated, the problem is that they are completely invisible to the user, and never presented by the game.
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
@meatmachine In many ways I totally agree with you... but I think its a mix of both things.
1. As you said, things need to be communicated in a much better way.
2. there are mechanics in this game that are overly complicated... this can be fixed by trimming the fat... if you achieve the same results and it doesn't effect gameplay, but will enhance performance or make things easier to understand... why wouldn't you want it?
e.g remember the old "high" infestation... it was horrid, so it got replaced with something better that does the same job... the original biomass incarnation had upgrades per lifeform on structures (fade on the shade, skulks on whips etc) they made it simpler by putting them all on the hive... remember the days of having to manually place every single cyst?, now they chain to a location making things easier. the old skulk movement?
There is plenty that can still be done for the game making unnecessarily complicated mechanics simpler but not impacting gameplay.
One thing that I've seen a few green players get tripped up by is the many words people use to describe Harvesters/Extractors/Resource Towers/RT/Res/Node/Res Nodes/Naturals.
I started playing a few months ago after a big break and I had no idea what naturals were!
Also, the mechanic of building power nodes to 99% is still so unintuitive. There are so many occasions where you will build a power node to 99% and then a greenie will come and build it all the way. It's hardly their fault, you are trained to think blue building = unbuilt so I should build it to help out the team. Honestly I would be interested to see how the game would play without the power node mechanic at all
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
TBH, even gathers (ensl.org), are mostly just highskilled players with the mindset of pubber, who at times feel like they should listen to a call. Really, the only time where you really have teams who know the basics and play with the basics is the top current division 1 teams in the ensl S8. In pugs and gathers, these theories of gameplay are known, but extreemly inconsistently utilised. Personally I try not to use compeptive macro-theory (such as laneblocking, rotations ect.) in pugs - I simply cannot rely on my teammate to do his job. People have a much easier time utilising micro-theory such as positioning, as this is much easier to grasp and its much easier to feel the effect of a bad fight (you die). An RT dying on the other side of the map, because you pushed is a reality, however, it can be extreemely difficult to see the implications of your actions throughout the map
ps.
Personally, my fight against this lack of awareness takes place on my twitch channel (twitch.tv/thesingingskulk - adverticing like a shameless whore) - This channel started for fun, because casting seemed awesome. Now it is a place where I try to shed light on the beauti of some plays, and highlight bad plays. Im going on a long stream later today (10th of January), playing pugs, ccasting gather and casting competitive matches. It should start in a few hours (around 2pm gmt+1/cest). A channel like twitch.tv/wob_ns could also easily shed some light on the theorycraft of this game.
@meatmachine In many ways I totally agree with you... but I think its a mix of both things.
1. As you said, things need to be communicated in a much better way.
2. there are mechanics in this game that are overly complicated... this can be fixed by trimming the fat... if you achieve the same results and it doesn't effect gameplay, but will enhance performance or make things easier to understand... why wouldn't you want it?
e.g remember the old "high" infestation... it was horrid, so it got replaced with something better that does the same job... the original biomass incarnation had upgrades per lifeform on structures (fade on the shade, skulks on whips etc) they made it simpler by putting them all on the hive... remember the days of having to manually place every single cyst?, now they chain to a location making things easier. the old skulk movement?
There is plenty that can still be done for the game making unnecessarily complicated mechanics simpler but not impacting gameplay.
Your example is biased. The tech tree or functionalities in whip were just a choice. Nothing that was more complicated than what we have now. It was just another way of doing things.
overly complicated... / things easier to understand... : It's the same as teaching someone the 4 basic math operations. If the concept isn't known, it will take far more time to understand on its own than being taught (by a tutorial or a teacher).
One thing that I've seen a few green players get tripped up by is the many words people use to describe Harvesters/Extractors/Resource Towers/RT/Res/Node/Res Nodes/Naturals.
I started playing a few months ago after a big break and I had no idea what naturals were!
Also, the mechanic of building power nodes to 99% is still so unintuitive. There are so many occasions where you will build a power node to 99% and then a greenie will come and build it all the way. It's hardly their fault, you are trained to think blue building = unbuilt so I should build it to help out the team. Honestly I would be interested to see how the game would play without the power node mechanic at all
Ask a vet and you get the answer in less than 5 minutes. It doesn't hurt. It's better to ask a question and look somehow dumb than being a total moron for the rest of your life. There is no stupid question. A question means a lack of information in the first place.
Don't be afraid to do so. Because when you ask a question, everybody who doesn't know will shut up (they want to know too), and only one or two will provide answers.
The most stupid thing I see in this game is that a lot of rookies (total dead weight) will not respond to an invitation to learn the basics. They ignore everyone and everything, join a team full of green while the other side is full of badges. You know the end.
It's like somebody who fear to go to the dentist while suffering pain for weeks. I've seen that.
@Tux0r Wait.....I started playing again not too long ago too........the heck are naturals.....
naturals refer to the resource towers that are immediately outside your base, which should always be capped. they are the natural expansion of your base (im so clever!)
In the name of staying on topic:
Would anyone be opposed to renaming harvesters/extractors to resource towers? I know this is an asymmetrical game, but overlapping names and actions that are common to both sides as much as possible would help to simplify the game (similar to having marines buy from armory and aliens evolve with b).
@Tux0r Wait.....I started playing again not too long ago too........the heck are naturals.....
naturals refer to the resource towers that are immediately outside your base, which should always be capped. they are the natural expansion of your base (im so clever!)
In the name of staying on topic:
Would anyone be opposed to renaming harvesters/extractors to resource towers? I know this is an asymmetrical game, but overlapping names and actions that are common to both sides as much as possible would help to simplify the game (similar to having marines buy from armory and aliens evolve with b).
I still slip put defense chamber, offense chamber, etc if I'm in a rush lol. Better than the current names imo. Id rather them be resource towers for both teams for sure
Would anyone be opposed to renaming harvesters/extractors to resource towers? I know this is an asymmetrical game, but overlapping names and actions that are common to both sides as much as possible would help to simplify the game (similar to having marines buy from armory and aliens evolve with b).
It would never work because of social reasons. This game has been around long enough that it has its own vocabulary. Just because "officially" the name changes does not mean people are going to stop calling them 4 different things. Frozens example was spot on. I still see people use defense chambers etc.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Yes, @Nordic is right.
Especially early in NS2 I had the habbit myself of called many structures by their ns1 name.
I think im finally out of it, but I wouldnt even dare to bet on it.
Defense chambers, for the folk who do not know, where a crag/shell in one and called Defense chamber, in NS1.
When the rookies are interacting with the team, learning what new things arethey are, especially the alien lifeforms are leads to some really fun pub expierences. Like the first time they see an Onos "WTF IS THAT HUGE GORILLA THING HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FIGHT THAT", and "THE SPIKEY BIRD THING IS SHOOTING ME". I think it's probably find for players to have a limited understanding of the resources system when they are just starting out. I think the current tutorials pitch the resources system at a good level (resources = more cool stuff, protect resource nodes)
Probably some of the most fun I had in NS2 was after the Alpha period was over and we had a big influx of players. The most fun games back then was when you were in a team of mostly rookies who actually listened, you got to lead them to victory and share in the excitement of killing their first hive, getting taken out by their first fade etc
It would never work because of social reasons. This game has been around long enough that it has its own vocabulary. Just because "officially" the name changes does not mean people are going to stop calling them 4 different things. Frozens example was spot on. I still see people use defense chambers etc.
Maybe you're right, but personally I almost never hear the term Extractor/Harvester, I would just see it as dropping two unpopular terms from the vocabulary (maybe just 4 different things instead of 6 )
Is it just me,or has commenting here slowed down ALOT?
Anyways,when I was a rookie,I think the most awesome thing I remember was not knowing anything about the creatures,weapons,ect. I remember when I watched the trailers and saw a Fade,I thought "Wow! That thing is so cool!" then I saw it Blink......"Oh....ohmanIwannaplaythisrightnow" Seeing Oni scared the crap outta me,lerks scared me,the fun thing of being a rookie was being scared by everything! I loved it!
We just need to make NS2 have that same feel again,like in early 2012! That's when the game was really fun! Atleast for me <:)
Part of me is lost on how I have to use spoiler tags and others do not. Except for that, I've slowed down because the feedback here is received just the same as a date with a girl and her phone. I fear they just want to hear about support for more DLC skins.
So, I'll put it out there!!!
Just aim to provide a continual service!
UWE's desire for continued monetary support will/has kill this game.
UWE's aim to take in continued monetary support with no server or admin support. HOW lame!
No official servers, no official admins, just give you money for skins and maps and maybe updated code, maybe game balances.
It's not nice, it's obvious. It's ugly and you won't hear it from players that wisely never invest into this game.
We need those players, but I can imagine why we don't have them. Can't you?
when should actual updates and not "fixed this and that" start appearing?
You should ask @WasabiOne for timelines... but I think you may need to clarify because I am not sure what you mean by updates if not fixing stuff?
I think he, and others, are really interested in the ideas from the document at the beginning of this thread. The PDT has stated they are looking into them, but we don't know anything solid yet.
when should actual updates and not "fixed this and that" start appearing?
You should ask @WasabiOne for timelines... but I think you may need to clarify because I am not sure what you mean by updates if not fixing stuff?
This conversation must be analyzed for those whom, like me, take their time buying games. Some may believe in-game-markets have less return than developers moving on into the next game. Further, It may be insulting when some others have a preconceived notion of the term DLC.
"Feedback" is a broad term and these thoughts I have about the miss-use of markets and terminology is indeed on point to this thread... I'm not certain how I've been enraged, but I can imagine and I hope you can forgive me. Because I do think it's lacking of class that I'm not personally proud of, but I'll end here.
The trello is just really hard to parse and interpret in a way that paints a larger picture - it would be nice to have weekly blog posts or something that give us a higher level summary of what the dev team is thinking and doing.
The trello is just really hard to parse and interpret in a way that paints a larger picture - it would be nice to have weekly blog posts or something that give us a higher level summary of what the dev team is thinking and doing.
I would be happy with a bi-weekly report by @WasabiOne. I am not sure the games development is fast enough to warrant a weekly blog post.
But really.... the last month would have been a great time to have some of these knowledge/info changes go in seeing how we had a large influx of greens from the sales.
So its been a month, are any of these things real or are they just fantasy?
It's been a month since the last post in the thread, since the news post was created it's been 71 days now. Get it right, Dragon, I expect more from you.
Comments
the issue is that the basics of the game that need communicating are not things like "marines can buy shotguns for 20 res once they are researched by the commander", but are the concepts of laning, zoning, and that defense IE waiting for where you know a skulk should show up are equally as important (and often net you just as many kills) as running into the hive and shooting eggs like a 1337 pr0 h4x0r.
moreover, these concepts are NEVER EVER COMMUNICATED IN THE GAMES LITERATURE.
The game's basics do not need simplifying, they simply need communicating in some capacity by the base game, taking this burden off of veteran players.
My post at the top of the page covers the communication aspect for the marine upgrade meta, which is a huge aspect of the game that for many pub servers has been stuck in the PGs-first era since the launch of the game. This is unacceptable!
Similar feedback (ideally in addition to a short tutorial consisting of some simple animations illustrating lane filling and basic rotations) for macro positioning is vital to ever get this basic, basic stuff across. Basic stuff that I didnt become aware of until like, 800 hours of playing the game? I say it's basic because as soon as you DO know "that's how its supposed to go", it's completely easy and obvious.
The base mechanics are not complicated, the problem is that they are completely invisible to the user, and never presented by the game.
1. As you said, things need to be communicated in a much better way.
2. there are mechanics in this game that are overly complicated... this can be fixed by trimming the fat... if you achieve the same results and it doesn't effect gameplay, but will enhance performance or make things easier to understand... why wouldn't you want it?
e.g remember the old "high" infestation... it was horrid, so it got replaced with something better that does the same job... the original biomass incarnation had upgrades per lifeform on structures (fade on the shade, skulks on whips etc) they made it simpler by putting them all on the hive... remember the days of having to manually place every single cyst?, now they chain to a location making things easier. the old skulk movement?
There is plenty that can still be done for the game making unnecessarily complicated mechanics simpler but not impacting gameplay.
I started playing a few months ago after a big break and I had no idea what naturals were!
Also, the mechanic of building power nodes to 99% is still so unintuitive. There are so many occasions where you will build a power node to 99% and then a greenie will come and build it all the way. It's hardly their fault, you are trained to think blue building = unbuilt so I should build it to help out the team. Honestly I would be interested to see how the game would play without the power node mechanic at all
ps.
Personally, my fight against this lack of awareness takes place on my twitch channel (twitch.tv/thesingingskulk - adverticing like a shameless whore) - This channel started for fun, because casting seemed awesome. Now it is a place where I try to shed light on the beauti of some plays, and highlight bad plays. Im going on a long stream later today (10th of January), playing pugs, ccasting gather and casting competitive matches. It should start in a few hours (around 2pm gmt+1/cest). A channel like twitch.tv/wob_ns could also easily shed some light on the theorycraft of this game.
overly complicated... / things easier to understand... : It's the same as teaching someone the 4 basic math operations. If the concept isn't known, it will take far more time to understand on its own than being taught (by a tutorial or a teacher).
Ask a vet and you get the answer in less than 5 minutes. It doesn't hurt. It's better to ask a question and look somehow dumb than being a total moron for the rest of your life. There is no stupid question. A question means a lack of information in the first place.
Don't be afraid to do so. Because when you ask a question, everybody who doesn't know will shut up (they want to know too), and only one or two will provide answers.
The most stupid thing I see in this game is that a lot of rookies (total dead weight) will not respond to an invitation to learn the basics. They ignore everyone and everything, join a team full of green while the other side is full of badges. You know the end.
It's like somebody who fear to go to the dentist while suffering pain for weeks. I've seen that.
naturals refer to the resource towers that are immediately outside your base, which should always be capped. they are the natural expansion of your base (im so clever!)
In the name of staying on topic:
Would anyone be opposed to renaming harvesters/extractors to resource towers? I know this is an asymmetrical game, but overlapping names and actions that are common to both sides as much as possible would help to simplify the game (similar to having marines buy from armory and aliens evolve with b).
I still slip put defense chamber, offense chamber, etc if I'm in a rush lol. Better than the current names imo. Id rather them be resource towers for both teams for sure
I will explain the whole list for you.
Harvesters
Alien/ Kharaa resource gather building.
Extractors
Marine / Fronstiersman resource gather building.
Resource Towers
The common name (aka what most people prefer to use) for both of the above.
RT
The short for Resource Tower
Res
In the example ment as a RT but of course it means resources. Its just bad to call it res.
Node
Excluding power nodes, strictly speaking.. this is the actual round location on which we build RTs.
Res Nodes
Strictly speaking.. this is the actual round location on which we build RTs.
Naturals
The closest RTs to your spawn. So the RTs you by nature of spawn tend to hold.
It would never work because of social reasons. This game has been around long enough that it has its own vocabulary. Just because "officially" the name changes does not mean people are going to stop calling them 4 different things. Frozens example was spot on. I still see people use defense chambers etc.
Especially early in NS2 I had the habbit myself of called many structures by their ns1 name.
I think im finally out of it, but I wouldnt even dare to bet on it.
Defense chambers, for the folk who do not know, where a crag/shell in one and called Defense chamber, in NS1.
This video seems applicable to your comment.
Probably some of the most fun I had in NS2 was after the Alpha period was over and we had a big influx of players. The most fun games back then was when you were in a team of mostly rookies who actually listened, you got to lead them to victory and share in the excitement of killing their first hive, getting taken out by their first fade etc
Maybe you're right, but personally I almost never hear the term Extractor/Harvester, I would just see it as dropping two unpopular terms from the vocabulary (maybe just 4 different things instead of 6
Anyways,when I was a rookie,I think the most awesome thing I remember was not knowing anything about the creatures,weapons,ect. I remember when I watched the trailers and saw a Fade,I thought "Wow! That thing is so cool!" then I saw it Blink......"Oh....ohmanIwannaplaythisrightnow" Seeing Oni scared the crap outta me,lerks scared me,the fun thing of being a rookie was being scared by everything! I loved it!
We just need to make NS2 have that same feel again,like in early 2012! That's when the game was really fun! Atleast for me <:)
So, I'll put it out there!!!
Just aim to provide a continual service!
UWE's desire for continued monetary support will/has kill this game.
UWE's aim to take in continued monetary support with no server or admin support. HOW lame!
No official servers, no official admins, just give you money for skins and maps and maybe updated code, maybe game balances.
It's not nice, it's obvious. It's ugly and you won't hear it from players that wisely never invest into this game.
We need those players, but I can imagine why we don't have them. Can't you?
What does your comment have to do with the thread topic??
It looks like you are just using another thread as a soapbox for your agenda again.
Don't do that. Derailing threads is against forums rules.
Forgot that one. :P
Anywhos,I know working on games takes a long time,so if I may ask,when should actual updates and not "fixed this and that" start appearing?
Again,not being pushy! I'm just curious as to how this stuff works
I think he, and others, are really interested in the ideas from the document at the beginning of this thread. The PDT has stated they are looking into them, but we don't know anything solid yet.
This conversation must be analyzed for those whom, like me, take their time buying games. Some may believe in-game-markets have less return than developers moving on into the next game. Further, It may be insulting when some others have a preconceived notion of the term DLC.
"Feedback" is a broad term and these thoughts I have about the miss-use of markets and terminology is indeed on point to this thread... I'm not certain how I've been enraged, but I can imagine and I hope you can forgive me. Because I do think it's lacking of class that I'm not personally proud of, but I'll end here.
I would be happy with a bi-weekly report by @WasabiOne. I am not sure the games development is fast enough to warrant a weekly blog post.
LOL! Jokes on you, @golden.
But really.... the last month would have been a great time to have some of these knowledge/info changes go in seeing how we had a large influx of greens from the sales.
It's been a month since the last post in the thread, since the news post was created it's been 71 days now. Get it right, Dragon, I expect more from you.