X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods

24

Comments

  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    Hugh wrote: »
    Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.

    Apologies for focusing on this one word. Do you mean inherent to ns2 development specifically, software development in general (i.e. what Ricez image encapsulates, that almost any dev can relate to), or a bit of both?

    I'm just trying to work out if it's a code issue (i.e. that there's an issue with how everything has been written from the ground up such that the functionality of the code is inherently delicate if tinkered with compared to other games) or a resources issue (i.e. that the foundations are more-or-less solid, but there simply isn't enough UWE manpower to allocate to ns2 to facilitate immediate fixes due to the complications that can be expected in patching almost any piece of software).
  • CuelCuel Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181295Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I have a few questions about NS2's development since it seems that it could get really fast to the point where it becomes unreasonable to update a 'mature' game and you are willing to answer:

    -What exactly does development mean and when will it be finished?

    -As you say, ns2 is a mature game, can we expect the game to finalize in a state where UWE fixes all bugs and releases something like an enhanced version/gold version of the game or will the game not recive any updates after a certain point and we will be stuck with band-aids and several bugs we have to live with?

    -What is the company's policy about the final goal for NS2?


    P.S.: An advise to fix mods in advance is great! I bet MvM will profit a lot from it. The community would have loved that right from the beginning, though. We could still have a free 'working' combat mod that way. Imagine what NS2's community content would had been and how many extra sales would it had created with good player advertisement...

    Unfortunately there is no such thing as bug free software, no matter the area
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    Ricez wrote: »
    The only thing is: Fixing the pathing mesh in a map does not work like that. Literally everything it takes is opening the old map file, fix the pathing (I haven't build a map for regular ns2 (yet), so I don't know how much work this is, but afaik it's not a major undertaking) and re-release the mapfile.

    You would be amazed how often a fix in the pathmesh for a map magically introduced a hole in the map, a different pathing mesh issue etc. its really not that easy.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I'm just curious.

    Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).

    Most people play Summit/Veil/Tram on an endless cycle (with the occasional biodome in there), even before mineshaft broke.

    To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    edited April 2014
    +1 Mineshaft!

    Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100? So I don't think that 10% of the player base not playing a particular map during competitive games should really be taken into consideration. The vast majority are pubbers, and I for one enjoy the variety that mineshaft brings. Also there's the sentimental value: it was my first or second ever played map on NS2!
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    edited April 2014
    Benson wrote: »
    I'm just curious.

    Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).

    Most people play Summit/Veil/Tram on an endless cycle (with the occasional biodome in there), even before mineshaft broke.

    To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.

    It may not be as well balanced and thus never really cared for, so people generally prefer to play the big 3 more often than the others, but it's important to have these other maps available in working order to at least accommodate as much variety in the map rotation as possible.

    Tbh, I don't mind mineshaft. It's my 5th favourite map. But that's just me.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100?

    There's more than 100 of us.

    ~44 teams competing this season, so we have around 246 active competitive players. That's not accounting for teams that have more than 6 players on their roster, or for players that aren't currently on a team.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100?

    There's more than 100 of us.

    ~44 teams competing this season, so we have around 246 active competitive players. That's not accounting for teams that have more than 6 players on their roster, or for players that aren't currently on a team.

    Fine, but still nowhere near the majority. Also, I don't think people who aren't on a team can be included as competitive players, since you need to be on a team to compete. Though I get the point that there are lots of "serious" players around who aren't on teams -- anyway in my book such players would fall within the public category, although on the high-skill range of the spectrum.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Thanks that you took the time to answer my questions! Now I could adjust my expectations quite a bit. I guess I somehow got a wrong impression of how UWE will treat ns2 in the near future.

    Good work @SamusDroid!
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Hugh wrote: »
    I gave a specific, factual explanation of the logic behind Unknown Worlds never releasing hot-fixes.

    That's not the best choice of words. You have released hotfixes in the past.. beta/gorgeous/reinforced periods.

    You just aren't now.

    Which is completely understandable I might add.
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I for one don't have much to complain about, but if I look through the archives of news posts it is noticeable that less and less attention (and probably funds) have been put towards NS2.

    I'm all for larger "more bug-free" updates. I admire the work that is going into whatever it is that we don't really know or understand is coming out "May 1st" (given your track record I'll reserve my reservations). But I think what the majority of us just don't get is why something like mineshaft was left the way it was for so long.

    Looking at the news posts around the Reinforced and Gorgeous times it seemed like there was a major update, then within 24 hours a patch for something that was either incomplete, or overlooked, but reasonably easy to fix. I don't know anything about business or game development, but from a bystander's point of view this seems like a halfway decent model to follow.

    Focus for a long time on playtesting and fixing big stuff. But then as soon as it's released standby and the masses will find something that was overlooked. Next day patch (or at least a post saying "we know about the bug and we can't fix it right now because XXX") and bingo.

    And for the record, I really really do miss the "State of development posts" even if they're about SA from now on.

    This thread sorta derailed rather quickly.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    Hugh's posts always brings out rage. I am sorry, Hugh. Raaaaaaaagggggeeee (in most cases, completely understandable)!
  • garrehgarreh UK Join Date: 2014-02-22 Member: 194244Members
    Personally I think it's quite embarrassing for a company whereby the community has fixed a broken update like mineshaft before an official patch. As a Developer in my daily profession I can relate to the processes that need to happen and I would rush to get an update out -- however it seems behind the scences, for UWE atleast, creating a quick fix/patch is a too complicated and involved process.

    I think that's the main frustration for the community -- yes we expect bugs (what software doesn't) but how a company treats those bugs is what matters; it should be done in open and time efficient manner. That is the true sign of true love for the community and product. With that said, UWE is clearly showing the latter -- let's see what the next build brings. :-)
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2014
    I had to disagree with you @garreh‌

    A small indie company like UWE has community members creating patches for the game. If you think this is so shockingly bad, I can only assume you don't work as a developer in the games industry.

    Communities for companies as big as Epic and Blizzard have members releasing bug fixes and patches before the companies themselves. Community fixes are almost part and parcel of PC gaming, and especially so in Indie developers who don't have the backing of a major publisher.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I heard this story the other day that I think fits here well. It goes like this:

    There once was a mother and her child. Mom loves child, child loves mom. Child wanted a new green toy. Child wont shut up about it. Mother, after some time, buys child BLUE version of same green toy. CHILD FLIPS OUT! "I WANTED THE GREEN ONE!" Child does not enjoy blue toy at all, despite being quite the same as the green one, in fact, the blue one is better. Child complains INCESSANTLY. Sadly, the mother grows weary and and eventually drowns her child.

    Now, aren't you all glad UWE isn't our mother? We should be grateful that any work at all is being put into it. All this "OMFG STILL NO FACKING HOTPATCH?!" is really BS. Say mineshaft was fixed and just quickly released... Are you certain that if that was the ONLY thing they tried to fix, another handful of bugs wouldn't have come up? Another hot fix for that one? And the one after that?

    I think most of you complaining are assuming that you know quite a bit more than you do. And in the end, we've still got a very nice, shiny toy, that I personally have still played pretty much everyday since we lost mineshaft anyways.

    Stop biting the hand that feeds, nobody likes little shit dogs like that.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited April 2014
    Exactly, how much did you pay for ns2 and how many hours have you got in it? Have you not got your money's worth? Fixes are incoming and the game has not been broken. I think most of this is really, really over-reactive.
    Yes, not all fixes will be included, we may hate the new content. Maybe we'll like it. We'd all love more. But if you can say you haven't gotten your money's worth and genuinely mean it, then I do feel bad for you, and I hope the new patch exceeds your expectations. Long wait sux.

    Beyond that, I think most of you sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. Hence my nice story.

    q_q
    elodea wrote: »
    What century are you living in? Companies are not mothers....
    I suppose you've heard of analogies, hyperbole, etc.

  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    2cough wrote: »
    Exactly, how much did you pay for ns2 and how many hours have you got in it? Have you not got your money's worth? Fixes are incoming and the game has not been broken. I think most of this is really, really over-reactive.
    Yes, not all fixes will be included, we may hate the new content. Maybe we'll like it. We'd all love more. But if you can say you haven't gotten your money's worth and genuinely mean it, then I do feel bad for you, and I hope the new patch exceeds your expectations. Long wait sux.

    Beyond that, I think most of you sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. Hence my nice story.

    q_q
    elodea wrote: »
    What century are you living in? Companies are not mothers....
    I suppose you've heard of analogies, hyperbole, etc.
    Not only have i heard of them, i've learnt how to use them properly. Maybe you should learn to do so too.

    Who are you to tell people how much value they place on each dollar they spend. Go away. There are plenty other places where you can satisfy your need to feel morally superior to everyone else.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Alright, as an example. I've calculated that I've spent roughly .012 cents for every hour I've played of ns2. That number will only decrease as I continue to play. You can say you've not got your money's worth. You can tell me to
    elodea wrote: »
    Go away.
    (again, wonder why people say this community is snobby, low player count, people don't stick, etc.), but I can honestly say that I've got my moneys worth over and over and over again. Plenty in b264, which where a lot of this frustration stems from.
    You can have all the fun you want complaining on the internet about something you've only enjoyed, and care about enough to bug other people here on the forums with what you have to say, just like me. This thread was to let people know ahead of time some expected mod bugs, and has turned into a huge we want list.. again. Spoiled kids.

    So to say I'm "satisfying my need to feel morally superior," I gotta say you're wrong. I didn't come here for that, but your hypocrisy is a pretty entertaining way of providing it. Nit-pick the semantics of my posts, have fun, I don't mind. Anyways, who brought up morals here? and who's talking down to who? And when did the internet start to care?
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    edited April 2014
    Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
    Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.

    So, on topic....
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    RapGod wrote: »
    Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
    Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.

    So, on topic....
    It went off topic the first post...
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
    Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.

    So, on topic....
    It went off topic the first post...
    OK derailered the train that had already been derailed a shit ton. Dammit, I just did it.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    RapGod wrote: »
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
    Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.

    So, on topic....
    It went off topic the first post...
    OK derailered the train that had already been derailed a shit ton. Dammit, I just did it.

    It was expected, hence the separate thread linking to the actual real on topic thread meant for modders. This was just so everyone sees it and can have the proper off-topic discussion in this proper thread ;)
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