Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.
Apologies for focusing on this one word. Do you mean inherent to ns2 development specifically, software development in general (i.e. what Ricez image encapsulates, that almost any dev can relate to), or a bit of both?
I'm just trying to work out if it's a code issue (i.e. that there's an issue with how everything has been written from the ground up such that the functionality of the code is inherently delicate if tinkered with compared to other games) or a resources issue (i.e. that the foundations are more-or-less solid, but there simply isn't enough UWE manpower to allocate to ns2 to facilitate immediate fixes due to the complications that can be expected in patching almost any piece of software).
The only thing is: Fixing the pathing mesh in a map does not work like that. Literally everything it takes is opening the old map file, fix the pathing (I haven't build a map for regular ns2 (yet), so I don't know how much work this is, but afaik it's not a major undertaking) and re-release the mapfile.
I have a few questions about NS2's development since it seems that it could get really fast to the point where it becomes unreasonable to update a 'mature' game and you are willing to answer:
-What exactly does development mean and when will it be finished?
-As you say, ns2 is a mature game, can we expect the game to finalize in a state where UWE fixes all bugs and releases something like an enhanced version/gold version of the game or will the game not recive any updates after a certain point and we will be stuck with band-aids and several bugs we have to live with?
-What is the company's policy about the final goal for NS2?
P.S.: An advise to fix mods in advance is great! I bet MvM will profit a lot from it. The community would have loved that right from the beginning, though. We could still have a free 'working' combat mod that way. Imagine what NS2's community content would had been and how many extra sales would it had created with good player advertisement...
Unfortunately there is no such thing as bug free software, no matter the area
The only thing is: Fixing the pathing mesh in a map does not work like that. Literally everything it takes is opening the old map file, fix the pathing (I haven't build a map for regular ns2 (yet), so I don't know how much work this is, but afaik it's not a major undertaking) and re-release the mapfile.
You would be amazed how often a fix in the pathmesh for a map magically introduced a hole in the map, a different pathing mesh issue etc. its really not that easy.
Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).
Most people play Summit/Veil/Tram on an endless cycle (with the occasional biodome in there), even before mineshaft broke.
To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
My favorite too, we are not alone! When i cry 'mieeenshaftplz!' during mapvote i get abuse and hated.
But i take it like a man and keep crying. Miiiiiieeeenshaffftt!
Miieeeeeenshaffffft!
Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100? So I don't think that 10% of the player base not playing a particular map during competitive games should really be taken into consideration. The vast majority are pubbers, and I for one enjoy the variety that mineshaft brings. Also there's the sentimental value: it was my first or second ever played map on NS2!
Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).
Most people play Summit/Veil/Tram on an endless cycle (with the occasional biodome in there), even before mineshaft broke.
To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
It may not be as well balanced and thus never really cared for, so people generally prefer to play the big 3 more often than the others, but it's important to have these other maps available in working order to at least accommodate as much variety in the map rotation as possible.
Tbh, I don't mind mineshaft. It's my 5th favourite map. But that's just me.
Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100?
There's more than 100 of us.
~44 teams competing this season, so we have around 246 active competitive players. That's not accounting for teams that have more than 6 players on their roster, or for players that aren't currently on a team.
Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100?
There's more than 100 of us.
~44 teams competing this season, so we have around 246 active competitive players. That's not accounting for teams that have more than 6 players on their roster, or for players that aren't currently on a team.
Fine, but still nowhere near the majority. Also, I don't think people who aren't on a team can be included as competitive players, since you need to be on a team to compete. Though I get the point that there are lots of "serious" players around who aren't on teams -- anyway in my book such players would fall within the public category, although on the high-skill range of the spectrum.
There's not much I can do with this post, @philogl. I gave a specific, factual explanation of the logic behind Unknown Worlds never releasing hot-fixes. Telling me that I am speaking gobbledygook is akin to telling me that you don't like my accent, and refuse to listen to me because of it. If you do not like the way I phrase things, I am sorry for that, I respect that, and I wish I could phrase things in a way that would be acceptable to everyone, everywhere. But you cannot simply wish away the meaning in my phrasing because you don't like it.
I do appreciate later posters, @obraxis, @ricez taking the time to expand upon what I said and put it in different terms. Not everyone speaks the same language, even if that language is English!
-What exactly does development mean and when will it be finished?
Development means the ongoing creation of new value in Natural Selection 2 - Whether through bug fixes, new features, balance changes, or anything else that could improve the experience of any player or prospective player.
Unknown Worlds presently has no date set to 'finish' Natural Selection 2 development. Our active plan is to continue Natural Selection 2 development ad infinitum. This plan is very ambitious and dependent on a multitude of factors.
As you say, ns2 is a mature game, can we expect the game to finalize in a state where UWE fixes all bugs and releases something like an enhanced version/gold version of the game or will the game not recive any updates after a certain point and we will be stuck with band-aids and several bugs we have to live with?
This is a complex question. First, 'can we expect... a stage where UWE fixes all the bugs,' this is certainly something no player should, or can reasonably expect. No piece of complex software can ever be in a state where all bugs are fixed, and Natural Selection 2 cannot defy this law; it is simply inherent in the nature of modern complex software development.
Second, regarding the release of an 'enhanced' version of Natural Selection 2. This would imply some sort of monolithic, final release. Unknown Worlds has no intention of making such a release, instead we wish to continue to develop Natural Selection 2 forever, with each individual update improving the game markedly for all concerned.
Third, 'will the game not receive any updates after a certain point.' This is a doozy, and it is impossible to answer at this time. Obviously at some point in the long term, NS2 would have to stop receiving updates - Even Windows XP had to lay down eventually. But of course you don't mean that, you mean over an indefinite reasonable timeframe. The intention is that Natural Selection 2 will continue to receive updates indefinitely, forever, as far as 'forever' can be defined in reasonable software lifecycle terms.
However, there is a strong possibility that Natural Selection 2 updates will have to stop. This could happen after 265, 270, 275 - They will stop if Unknown Worlds is unable to continue to add new value to the game with each update, and if the cost to Unknown Worlds of executing on new updates is unacceptable. That previous sentence justifies an entire essay of explanation just on its own, so I'll save that for more questions later in the thread!
-What is the company's policy about the final goal for NS2?
The policy of Unknown Worlds is that the final goal for Natural Selection 2 is continued development over an indefinite time-frame. Just as one does not 'finish' DayZ, or Minecraft, or even, in meta terms, Natural Selection 2, development of Natural Selection 2 will not stop. That is the goal. Whether that goal can be achieved or not remains to be see, but it is the goal.
P.S.: An advise to fix mods in advance is great! I bet MvM will profit a lot from it. The community would have loved that right from the beginning, though. We could still have a free 'working' combat mod that way. Imagine what NS2's community content would had been and how many extra sales would it had created with good player advertisement...
This advance warning was an initiative of @SamusDroid - Not only has he been an exceptionally driven and skilled technical lead for Build 265, he has also taken great interest in the needs of the community as a whole, including modders. He is an outstanding NS2 community member.
Apologies for focusing on this one word... Do you mean inherent to ns2 development specifically, software development in general (i.e. what Ricez image encapsulates, that almost any dev can relate to), or a bit of both?
No need to apologise @d0ped0g I am happy to expand on this. I mean a bit of both. Natural Selection 2 development is certainly subject to the universal laws of software development. It is also subject to its own peculiar and unique set of constraints. These constraints encompass:
- The particular capabilities of the team working on NS2 at present
- The desires and influence of NS2 players upon that team
- The ingrained 'way of doing things' present in NS2 development, that may or may not be conducive to sustainable long term development
- The extremely open nature of the official repositories (Unknown Worlds places extreme trust in NS2 player contributors with our code and art repositories)
- The resources available to it from Unknown Worlds, given Unknown Worlds has diversified into the development of multiple other projects, (enabled by the success of NS2 sales)
- The specific production methods utilised by Unknown Worlds (i.e. extremely open and non-structured, dependent on individual initiative, self-restraint, and small-team high intensity communication)
Going in depth on each of these elements would take quite some time. If people have specific questions regarding each element then I will do my best to answer them, depending on how long the thread lives and how civil it is.
I'm just curious. Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).
While I'm fairly sure you weren't directing this question at me, @Benson, I'll give the 'Unknown Worlds' answer anyway. It is unacceptable that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be regressed via update into a non-functional state, regardless of its popularity. Customers have a reasonable expectation, and Unknown Worlds expects of ourselves, that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be reasonably functional at all times.
Thanks that you took the time to answer my questions! Now I could adjust my expectations quite a bit. I guess I somehow got a wrong impression of how UWE will treat ns2 in the near future.
So in short sounds like NS2 will continue to receive updates as long as a profit can be made while at the same time consideration and priority is given to current internal projects.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
@Hugh - I think a lot of recent criticism shown towards UWE has been because of a lack of information. The communication you have provided here is great, and for the NS community in particular, it harks back to the open relationship we have always had throughout the history of NS.
While we know things get busy, and regular consistent communication is a pipedream, the NS community has felt like it isn't receiving any attention. We know you are working to develop the new baby, but the older sibling is getting a little jealous that it gets less attention!
The updates have continued to flow, but the lack of communication with devs has caused the ill feeling to grow. If there was irregular communication from the devs about NS2, whether it be specifically related to the product or more personal inside the studio information, it will alleviate some of the feelings of being ignored, even if there isn't a change to way the updates are done. The feeling of having communication is important, the communications themselves less so.
We'd love to see more informal inside the office type stuff. the work you are doing promoting Subnautica shows you have really learned from your NS2 experiences, just don't forget to show the NS community some love too
I for one don't have much to complain about, but if I look through the archives of news posts it is noticeable that less and less attention (and probably funds) have been put towards NS2.
I'm all for larger "more bug-free" updates. I admire the work that is going into whatever it is that we don't really know or understand is coming out "May 1st" (given your track record I'll reserve my reservations). But I think what the majority of us just don't get is why something like mineshaft was left the way it was for so long.
Looking at the news posts around the Reinforced and Gorgeous times it seemed like there was a major update, then within 24 hours a patch for something that was either incomplete, or overlooked, but reasonably easy to fix. I don't know anything about business or game development, but from a bystander's point of view this seems like a halfway decent model to follow.
Focus for a long time on playtesting and fixing big stuff. But then as soon as it's released standby and the masses will find something that was overlooked. Next day patch (or at least a post saying "we know about the bug and we can't fix it right now because XXX") and bingo.
And for the record, I really really do miss the "State of development posts" even if they're about SA from now on.
Personally I think it's quite embarrassing for a company whereby the community has fixed a broken update like mineshaft before an official patch. As a Developer in my daily profession I can relate to the processes that need to happen and I would rush to get an update out -- however it seems behind the scences, for UWE atleast, creating a quick fix/patch is a too complicated and involved process.
I think that's the main frustration for the community -- yes we expect bugs (what software doesn't) but how a company treats those bugs is what matters; it should be done in open and time efficient manner. That is the true sign of true love for the community and product. With that said, UWE is clearly showing the latter -- let's see what the next build brings. :-)
A small indie company like UWE has community members creating patches for the game. If you think this is so shockingly bad, I can only assume you don't work as a developer in the games industry.
Communities for companies as big as Epic and Blizzard have members releasing bug fixes and patches before the companies themselves. Community fixes are almost part and parcel of PC gaming, and especially so in Indie developers who don't have the backing of a major publisher.
I heard this story the other day that I think fits here well. It goes like this:
There once was a mother and her child. Mom loves child, child loves mom. Child wanted a new green toy. Child wont shut up about it. Mother, after some time, buys child BLUE version of same green toy. CHILD FLIPS OUT! "I WANTED THE GREEN ONE!" Child does not enjoy blue toy at all, despite being quite the same as the green one, in fact, the blue one is better. Child complains INCESSANTLY. Sadly, the mother grows weary and and eventually drowns her child.
Now, aren't you all glad UWE isn't our mother? We should be grateful that any work at all is being put into it. All this "OMFG STILL NO FACKING HOTPATCH?!" is really BS. Say mineshaft was fixed and just quickly released... Are you certain that if that was the ONLY thing they tried to fix, another handful of bugs wouldn't have come up? Another hot fix for that one? And the one after that?
I think most of you complaining are assuming that you know quite a bit more than you do. And in the end, we've still got a very nice, shiny toy, that I personally have still played pretty much everyday since we lost mineshaft anyways.
Stop biting the hand that feeds, nobody likes little shit dogs like that.
I heard this story the other day that I think fits here well. It goes like this:
There once was a mother and her child. Mom loves child, child loves mom. Child wanted a new green toy. Child wont shut up about it. Mother, after some time, buys child BLUE version of same green toy. CHILD FLIPS OUT! "I WANTED THE GREEN ONE!" Child does not enjoy blue toy at all, despite being quite the same as the green one, in fact, the blue one is better. Child complains INCESSANTLY. Sadly, the mother grows weary and and eventually drowns her child.
Now, aren't you all glad UWE isn't our mother? We should be grateful that any work at all is being put into it. All this "OMFG STILL NO FACKING HOTPATCH?!" is really BS. Say mineshaft was fixed and just quickly released... Are you certain that if that was the ONLY thing they tried to fix, another handful of bugs wouldn't have come up? Another hot fix for that one? And the one after that?
I think most of you complaining are assuming that you know quite a bit more than you do. And in the end, we've still got a very nice, shiny toy, that I personally have still played pretty much everyday since we lost mineshaft anyways.
Stop biting the hand that feeds, nobody likes little shit dogs like that.
What century are you living in? Companies are not mothers....
They are entities that provide goods and services to paying customers. Those customers have every right to expect a fully functioning product. So while you won't hear me whining every day on the forums about bugs that are beyond UWE's ability to fix, you also won't hear me talking down to other people demanding they get a quality product.
In all seriousness and objectivity, the development of NS2 over the years makes a great case study illustrating many many things not to do when developing a game. Why they currently can't fix their own game is due to a road of cascading bad decisions. Understandable, but not acceptable.
Exactly, how much did you pay for ns2 and how many hours have you got in it? Have you not got your money's worth? Fixes are incoming and the game has not been broken. I think most of this is really, really over-reactive.
Yes, not all fixes will be included, we may hate the new content. Maybe we'll like it. We'd all love more. But if you can say you haven't gotten your money's worth and genuinely mean it, then I do feel bad for you, and I hope the new patch exceeds your expectations. Long wait sux.
Beyond that, I think most of you sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. Hence my nice story.
Exactly, how much did you pay for ns2 and how many hours have you got in it? Have you not got your money's worth? Fixes are incoming and the game has not been broken. I think most of this is really, really over-reactive.
Yes, not all fixes will be included, we may hate the new content. Maybe we'll like it. We'd all love more. But if you can say you haven't gotten your money's worth and genuinely mean it, then I do feel bad for you, and I hope the new patch exceeds your expectations. Long wait sux.
Beyond that, I think most of you sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. Hence my nice story.
What century are you living in? Companies are not mothers....
I suppose you've heard of analogies, hyperbole, etc.
Not only have i heard of them, i've learnt how to use them properly. Maybe you should learn to do so too.
Who are you to tell people how much value they place on each dollar they spend. Go away. There are plenty other places where you can satisfy your need to feel morally superior to everyone else.
Alright, as an example. I've calculated that I've spent roughly .012 cents for every hour I've played of ns2. That number will only decrease as I continue to play. You can say you've not got your money's worth. You can tell me to
(again, wonder why people say this community is snobby, low player count, people don't stick, etc.), but I can honestly say that I've got my moneys worth over and over and over again. Plenty in b264, which where a lot of this frustration stems from.
You can have all the fun you want complaining on the internet about something you've only enjoyed, and care about enough to bug other people here on the forums with what you have to say, just like me. This thread was to let people know ahead of time some expected mod bugs, and has turned into a huge we want list.. again. Spoiled kids.
So to say I'm "satisfying my need to feel morally superior," I gotta say you're wrong. I didn't come here for that, but your hypocrisy is a pretty entertaining way of providing it. Nit-pick the semantics of my posts, have fun, I don't mind. Anyways, who brought up morals here? and who's talking down to who? And when did the internet start to care?
Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.
Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.
Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.
So, on topic....
It went off topic the first post...
OK derailered the train that had already been derailed a shit ton. Dammit, I just did it.
Congrats @2cough , you have derailed the thread further and have also made some... interesting statements.
Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.
So, on topic....
It went off topic the first post...
OK derailered the train that had already been derailed a shit ton. Dammit, I just did it.
It was expected, hence the separate thread linking to the actual real on topic thread meant for modders. This was just so everyone sees it and can have the proper off-topic discussion in this proper thread
The mineshaft incident was a bit confusing to me. shortly after the last patch, we had another Green wave through the humble bundle. Surely it makes business sense to invest the time to incorporate samus' mineshaft fix into a hot patch for that one time? The result was that we had loads of new players seeing an official map that was unplayable on most servers, because the mechanism for community fixes to be rolled out isn't universal. You had us vets telling new players to vote yes to map changes, explaining that the map is broken. That was really BAD pr for uwe.
I do understand the need to minimise the number of official updates, but there also needs to be consideration of the impact of that, especially in the light of upcoming sale periods. An alternative solution would be for samus to make a 'hotfix' mod and push that (like ns2+) as a mod that every server operator should run. That would at least provide a far-reaching mechanism for community fixes to be implemented, and would fit better with the medium to long term strategy that @hugh mentioned in this thread.
Comments
Apologies for focusing on this one word. Do you mean inherent to ns2 development specifically, software development in general (i.e. what Ricez image encapsulates, that almost any dev can relate to), or a bit of both?
I'm just trying to work out if it's a code issue (i.e. that there's an issue with how everything has been written from the ground up such that the functionality of the code is inherently delicate if tinkered with compared to other games) or a resources issue (i.e. that the foundations are more-or-less solid, but there simply isn't enough UWE manpower to allocate to ns2 to facilitate immediate fixes due to the complications that can be expected in patching almost any piece of software).
The only thing is: Fixing the pathing mesh in a map does not work like that. Literally everything it takes is opening the old map file, fix the pathing (I haven't build a map for regular ns2 (yet), so I don't know how much work this is, but afaik it's not a major undertaking) and re-release the mapfile.
Unfortunately there is no such thing as bug free software, no matter the area
Why are people so up in arms about mineshaft being still broken? Its not played in Comp (a big part of this community) and most pubbers I play with thinks its a poorly designed map (to put it civilly).
Most people play Summit/Veil/Tram on an endless cycle (with the occasional biodome in there), even before mineshaft broke.
To my knowledge, I am one of the only people who has mineshaft as their favorite map, so are people just latching on to things to be angry about? History shows this community has never really cared for mineshaft.
My favorite too, we are not alone! When i cry 'mieeenshaftplz!' during mapvote i get abuse and hated.
But i take it like a man and keep crying. Miiiiiieeeenshaffftt!
Miieeeeeenshaffffft!
Soon we can cuddle those pretty walls again.
Anyway with an average gaming population numbering 1000 or less, comp players are what, at most 100? So I don't think that 10% of the player base not playing a particular map during competitive games should really be taken into consideration. The vast majority are pubbers, and I for one enjoy the variety that mineshaft brings. Also there's the sentimental value: it was my first or second ever played map on NS2!
It may not be as well balanced and thus never really cared for, so people generally prefer to play the big 3 more often than the others, but it's important to have these other maps available in working order to at least accommodate as much variety in the map rotation as possible.
Tbh, I don't mind mineshaft. It's my 5th favourite map. But that's just me.
There's more than 100 of us.
~44 teams competing this season, so we have around 246 active competitive players. That's not accounting for teams that have more than 6 players on their roster, or for players that aren't currently on a team.
Fine, but still nowhere near the majority. Also, I don't think people who aren't on a team can be included as competitive players, since you need to be on a team to compete. Though I get the point that there are lots of "serious" players around who aren't on teams -- anyway in my book such players would fall within the public category, although on the high-skill range of the spectrum.
There's not much I can do with this post, @philogl. I gave a specific, factual explanation of the logic behind Unknown Worlds never releasing hot-fixes. Telling me that I am speaking gobbledygook is akin to telling me that you don't like my accent, and refuse to listen to me because of it. If you do not like the way I phrase things, I am sorry for that, I respect that, and I wish I could phrase things in a way that would be acceptable to everyone, everywhere. But you cannot simply wish away the meaning in my phrasing because you don't like it.
I do appreciate later posters, @obraxis, @ricez taking the time to expand upon what I said and put it in different terms. Not everyone speaks the same language, even if that language is English!
I appreciate you taking the time to ask me questions, @[AWE]Sentinel. I'll do my best to answer every one!
Development means the ongoing creation of new value in Natural Selection 2 - Whether through bug fixes, new features, balance changes, or anything else that could improve the experience of any player or prospective player.
Unknown Worlds presently has no date set to 'finish' Natural Selection 2 development. Our active plan is to continue Natural Selection 2 development ad infinitum. This plan is very ambitious and dependent on a multitude of factors.
This is a complex question. First, 'can we expect... a stage where UWE fixes all the bugs,' this is certainly something no player should, or can reasonably expect. No piece of complex software can ever be in a state where all bugs are fixed, and Natural Selection 2 cannot defy this law; it is simply inherent in the nature of modern complex software development.
Second, regarding the release of an 'enhanced' version of Natural Selection 2. This would imply some sort of monolithic, final release. Unknown Worlds has no intention of making such a release, instead we wish to continue to develop Natural Selection 2 forever, with each individual update improving the game markedly for all concerned.
Third, 'will the game not receive any updates after a certain point.' This is a doozy, and it is impossible to answer at this time. Obviously at some point in the long term, NS2 would have to stop receiving updates - Even Windows XP had to lay down eventually. But of course you don't mean that, you mean over an indefinite reasonable timeframe. The intention is that Natural Selection 2 will continue to receive updates indefinitely, forever, as far as 'forever' can be defined in reasonable software lifecycle terms.
However, there is a strong possibility that Natural Selection 2 updates will have to stop. This could happen after 265, 270, 275 - They will stop if Unknown Worlds is unable to continue to add new value to the game with each update, and if the cost to Unknown Worlds of executing on new updates is unacceptable. That previous sentence justifies an entire essay of explanation just on its own, so I'll save that for more questions later in the thread!
The policy of Unknown Worlds is that the final goal for Natural Selection 2 is continued development over an indefinite time-frame. Just as one does not 'finish' DayZ, or Minecraft, or even, in meta terms, Natural Selection 2, development of Natural Selection 2 will not stop. That is the goal. Whether that goal can be achieved or not remains to be see, but it is the goal.
This advance warning was an initiative of @SamusDroid - Not only has he been an exceptionally driven and skilled technical lead for Build 265, he has also taken great interest in the needs of the community as a whole, including modders. He is an outstanding NS2 community member.
No need to apologise @d0ped0g I am happy to expand on this. I mean a bit of both. Natural Selection 2 development is certainly subject to the universal laws of software development. It is also subject to its own peculiar and unique set of constraints. These constraints encompass:
- The particular capabilities of the team working on NS2 at present
- The desires and influence of NS2 players upon that team
- The ingrained 'way of doing things' present in NS2 development, that may or may not be conducive to sustainable long term development
- The extremely open nature of the official repositories (Unknown Worlds places extreme trust in NS2 player contributors with our code and art repositories)
- The resources available to it from Unknown Worlds, given Unknown Worlds has diversified into the development of multiple other projects, (enabled by the success of NS2 sales)
- The specific production methods utilised by Unknown Worlds (i.e. extremely open and non-structured, dependent on individual initiative, self-restraint, and small-team high intensity communication)
Going in depth on each of these elements would take quite some time. If people have specific questions regarding each element then I will do my best to answer them, depending on how long the thread lives and how civil it is.
*Edited to fix list
While I'm fairly sure you weren't directing this question at me, @Benson, I'll give the 'Unknown Worlds' answer anyway. It is unacceptable that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be regressed via update into a non-functional state, regardless of its popularity. Customers have a reasonable expectation, and Unknown Worlds expects of ourselves, that any map included with Natural Selection 2 be reasonably functional at all times.
Good work @SamusDroid!
Sounds reasonable to me.
That's not the best choice of words. You have released hotfixes in the past.. beta/gorgeous/reinforced periods.
You just aren't now.
Which is completely understandable I might add.
While we know things get busy, and regular consistent communication is a pipedream, the NS community has felt like it isn't receiving any attention. We know you are working to develop the new baby, but the older sibling is getting a little jealous that it gets less attention!
The updates have continued to flow, but the lack of communication with devs has caused the ill feeling to grow. If there was irregular communication from the devs about NS2, whether it be specifically related to the product or more personal inside the studio information, it will alleviate some of the feelings of being ignored, even if there isn't a change to way the updates are done. The feeling of having communication is important, the communications themselves less so.
We'd love to see more informal inside the office type stuff. the work you are doing promoting Subnautica shows you have really learned from your NS2 experiences, just don't forget to show the NS community some love too
I'm all for larger "more bug-free" updates. I admire the work that is going into whatever it is that we don't really know or understand is coming out "May 1st" (given your track record I'll reserve my reservations). But I think what the majority of us just don't get is why something like mineshaft was left the way it was for so long.
Looking at the news posts around the Reinforced and Gorgeous times it seemed like there was a major update, then within 24 hours a patch for something that was either incomplete, or overlooked, but reasonably easy to fix. I don't know anything about business or game development, but from a bystander's point of view this seems like a halfway decent model to follow.
Focus for a long time on playtesting and fixing big stuff. But then as soon as it's released standby and the masses will find something that was overlooked. Next day patch (or at least a post saying "we know about the bug and we can't fix it right now because XXX") and bingo.
And for the record, I really really do miss the "State of development posts" even if they're about SA from now on.
This thread sorta derailed rather quickly.
I think that's the main frustration for the community -- yes we expect bugs (what software doesn't) but how a company treats those bugs is what matters; it should be done in open and time efficient manner. That is the true sign of true love for the community and product. With that said, UWE is clearly showing the latter -- let's see what the next build brings. :-)
A small indie company like UWE has community members creating patches for the game. If you think this is so shockingly bad, I can only assume you don't work as a developer in the games industry.
Communities for companies as big as Epic and Blizzard have members releasing bug fixes and patches before the companies themselves. Community fixes are almost part and parcel of PC gaming, and especially so in Indie developers who don't have the backing of a major publisher.
There once was a mother and her child. Mom loves child, child loves mom. Child wanted a new green toy. Child wont shut up about it. Mother, after some time, buys child BLUE version of same green toy. CHILD FLIPS OUT! "I WANTED THE GREEN ONE!" Child does not enjoy blue toy at all, despite being quite the same as the green one, in fact, the blue one is better. Child complains INCESSANTLY. Sadly, the mother grows weary and and eventually drowns her child.
Now, aren't you all glad UWE isn't our mother? We should be grateful that any work at all is being put into it. All this "OMFG STILL NO FACKING HOTPATCH?!" is really BS. Say mineshaft was fixed and just quickly released... Are you certain that if that was the ONLY thing they tried to fix, another handful of bugs wouldn't have come up? Another hot fix for that one? And the one after that?
I think most of you complaining are assuming that you know quite a bit more than you do. And in the end, we've still got a very nice, shiny toy, that I personally have still played pretty much everyday since we lost mineshaft anyways.
Stop biting the hand that feeds, nobody likes little shit dogs like that.
They are entities that provide goods and services to paying customers. Those customers have every right to expect a fully functioning product. So while you won't hear me whining every day on the forums about bugs that are beyond UWE's ability to fix, you also won't hear me talking down to other people demanding they get a quality product.
In all seriousness and objectivity, the development of NS2 over the years makes a great case study illustrating many many things not to do when developing a game. Why they currently can't fix their own game is due to a road of cascading bad decisions. Understandable, but not acceptable.
Yes, not all fixes will be included, we may hate the new content. Maybe we'll like it. We'd all love more. But if you can say you haven't gotten your money's worth and genuinely mean it, then I do feel bad for you, and I hope the new patch exceeds your expectations. Long wait sux.
Beyond that, I think most of you sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. Hence my nice story.
q_q
I suppose you've heard of analogies, hyperbole, etc.
Who are you to tell people how much value they place on each dollar they spend. Go away. There are plenty other places where you can satisfy your need to feel morally superior to everyone else.
You can have all the fun you want complaining on the internet about something you've only enjoyed, and care about enough to bug other people here on the forums with what you have to say, just like me. This thread was to let people know ahead of time some expected mod bugs, and has turned into a huge we want list.. again. Spoiled kids.
So to say I'm "satisfying my need to feel morally superior," I gotta say you're wrong. I didn't come here for that, but your hypocrisy is a pretty entertaining way of providing it. Nit-pick the semantics of my posts, have fun, I don't mind. Anyways, who brought up morals here? and who's talking down to who? And when did the internet start to care?
Edit - I should say derailed the already derailed thread.
So, on topic....
It was expected, hence the separate thread linking to the actual real on topic thread meant for modders. This was just so everyone sees it and can have the proper off-topic discussion in this proper thread
I do understand the need to minimise the number of official updates, but there also needs to be consideration of the impact of that, especially in the light of upcoming sale periods. An alternative solution would be for samus to make a 'hotfix' mod and push that (like ns2+) as a mod that every server operator should run. That would at least provide a far-reaching mechanism for community fixes to be implemented, and would fit better with the medium to long term strategy that @hugh mentioned in this thread.