So when are you going to fix GL player damage? Never?

Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited March 2014 in NS2 General Discussion
see title.

http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133837/when-did-the-noob-gl-spam-start
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/124918/gl-just-fix-it
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/123521/the-gl-spam-is-still-not-fixed
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/133740/gl-spam
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/122226/endgame-marine-turtling-gl-spam
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/121033/reduce-the-gl-spam

Edit 02/03:
Summary of some ideas on how to "fix" GL, choose one or multiple.

General fixes:
- make projectiles more clearly visible to players [bright outlines]
- make them properly networked, so they can be avoided even in air and such
- improve ns2 lag compensation, so the damage feedback is much more instant rather then a felt ~1-2 second delayed (this pretty much would improve alien play A LOT), and reduce the issues with prediction (getting killed around corners, by marines not facing you, etc)

Anti-Structure
choose one or multiple

- Remove player damage, or reduce it drastically
-- to compensate, make GL cheaper or make it a secondary weapon
- Remove AoE player damage, only causing damage on impact
- Add large AoE falloff against _players_ (most damage on impact, signicantly less damage the further a player is away, i.e. quadratic (or higher), possibly even exponential falloff)
- Fixed ammo pool to reduce the "spam" effect (similar to hand grenades or mines)
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Comments

  • Soylent_greenSoylent_green Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11220Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2014
    I agree, it could use a buff. It's almost never worth taking it.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    UWE held off on making any balance changes while the WC was going on, but posts by prominent playtesters lead me to believe that a balance patch is in the works and will be out in the next couple weeks
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Like I asked another person that was complaining. @Omega_k2, what player count servers do you tend to play on?
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    CyberKun wrote: »
    Like I asked another person that was complaining. @Omega_k2, what player count servers do you tend to play on?

    I think most people know the problem becomes worse with higher players; I play 18 o. 22.

    Don't want to end up as this is meant to be 6v6 and it's not an issue blah blah sitatuon, cause most people don't even play that way unless you're playing a competive match, and it is an issue with public games, which the majority of players plays.

    There have been a bunch of ideas being thrown around how to balance GL, but I'm really for removing player AoE damage completly (unless direct impact or so), and rename it to "Anti-Structure Launcher".
    Additional ideas besides removing player aoe damage to balance it out is reverting it to the lmg attachment, making it secondary (which possibly may not be equipable along side shotties for balance or require long weapon switch times).
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2014
    I don't think any changes will come. Sorry to burst your bubble. If they do, I'll be happy and surprised.

  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.

    Answer to all those: large AoE Damage player, invisible/barely visbile nades, NS2's netcode/feedback delay (which means you can and will get hit by nades BEFORE you see them or have a chance to react) -> people getting killed by marines spamming GL
  • soccerguy243soccerguy243 Join Date: 2012-12-22 Member: 175920Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Omega_K2 wrote: »
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.

    Answer to all those: large AoE Damage player, invisible/barely visbile nades, NS2's netcode/feedback delay (which means you can and will get hit by nades BEFORE you see them or have a chance to react) -> people getting killed by marines spamming GL

    better complain about those invisible/barely visible rifle and shotgun bullets too then.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Random idea: What if Bile Bomb splash damage kills grenades in the vicinity?

    To allow a support class to nullify another support class would be fair IMO.
  • LastdonLastdon Join Date: 2012-06-29 Member: 153767Members
    Not sure if you noticed but UWE doesn't work on or have they worked on this game in a very long time. All the patches since biomass have been done by modders.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Can't wait for MvM with ff on 100% :D
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Lastdon wrote: »
    Not sure if you noticed but UWE doesn't work on or have they worked on this game in a very long time. All the patches since biomass have been done by modders.

    With the help of modders, aka samusdroid.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.

    Direct aim is hard, but a luck shot can be devastating to a fade and especially to a lerk. That's really my only complaint about the grenade launcher, the AOE spam is almost negligable but with enough spam they are bound to randomly hit directly from time to time and a single direct hit can kill a lerk.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    I think they just need to be more expensive, 15 pres is dirt cheap. Nothing in the game except welders is cheaper. Nerfing them against players would be lame. Its a frikking grenade launcher it is supposed to do damage, that is why its so high up in the tech tree (only PL items are higher).
    A variety of different types of grenades to launch would be nice, just like with hand nades ( I remember gas grenades were on the feature list, but got cut like so many other things).
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    Lastdon wrote: »
    Not sure if you noticed but UWE doesn't work on or have they worked on this game in a very long time. All the patches since biomass have been done by modders.

    That is not true. Several uwe employees have worked on the last and upcoming patches. Yes, not the full team like before, but still quite a bit
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited March 2014
    sotanaht wrote: »
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.

    Direct aim is hard, but a luck shot can be devastating to a fade and especially to a lerk. That's really my only complaint about the grenade launcher, the AOE spam is almost negligable but with enough spam they are bound to randomly hit directly from time to time and a single direct hit can kill a lerk.

    I post this everytime I see a GL thread, but the reason directs are so hard in this game because the clients representation of the grenade model doesn't match the server, making it pretty much luck whether or not you hit someone with it. edit: along with the super high interp, doesn't work well with projectiles :/

    What i'd like to see done is a fix for the above, a decrease in splash radius (or damage) and a slightly smaller hitbox for the grenade. That would drastically increase the skill ceiling for the grenade launcher while reducing the common spam.
  • ZalamaelZalamael Join Date: 2013-08-18 Member: 186949Members
    I would rather see the GL have a fixed ammo pool. That way the noobs that sit at the entrances to corridors spamming grenades endlessly would be wasting their pres each time. Being able to replenish it at an Armory just encourages weak play, and bad players that depend on these crutches will never improve their play in other areas. It drags pub matches down considerably when you have a lot of weak players on your team that spend the entire match hiding behind low skill mechanics.
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Members
    I'm still amazed there isn't a cooldown for buying hand grenades. It's funny when marines put an armory right outside an area they're about to attack and just spam endless hand nades into the Alien defense, such skill.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I have not experienced an issue with GLs. They're possibly OP when 2-3 JPGL marines can use them to take out a hive in seconds, but I've not had a problem losing life forms to them.

    However 15 res is rather silly for something that can cause so much devastation. Wouldn't care if the price was bumped back up to 25 res along with the FT.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2014
    Omega_K2 wrote: »
    The only 'problems' with GL is that:

    * skulks 'forget' they can use ceilings, which would reduce the damage they take and most nades explode on ground level.
    * Gorges are standing way to close.
    * Fades and lers do their best to stand in front of marines instead of moving above and behind.

    Direct aim is a lot harder with GL, take advantage of alien movement and yays.

    Answer to all those: large AoE Damage player, invisible/barely visbile nades, NS2's netcode/feedback delay (which means you can and will get hit by nades BEFORE you see them or have a chance to react) -> people getting killed by marines spamming GL

    better complain about those invisible/barely visible rifle and shotgun bullets too then.
    What.
    Its like you are saying rifle and shotgun bullets only land because of luck, and that those two weapons also fall into the "Anti-structure" category, too.
    Plz..

    I've been very vocal about the so called anti structure weapon player damage since alpha days. It's gotten... better.. slightly.. since then..
    Its utterly ridiculous that you can get one shotted by a random wayward projectile never intended nor designed for you.
    Its frustrating at best, and skill-less at worst.

    I say a good step would be to reduce player damage further, and add an outline/highlight to the projectile so that you have a chance at countering and preventing random deaths when coming around a corner.
  • NeXuSNeXuS US Join Date: 2013-10-13 Member: 188681Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2014
    From a dev himself. Can't get any more concrete than that.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited March 2014
    Lastdon wrote: »
    Not sure if you noticed but UWE doesn't work on or have they worked on this game in a very long time. All the patches since biomass have been done by modders.

    Who told you this. 1st of all, modders, at most, help suggest stuff for patches. UWE never stopped development but slowed it down.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Those topics I believe were after 250, when gl and flamers were OP beyond proportions.

    Right now I think they're fine, but GL getting direct hits on fades gets kind of annoying.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Gonna update the OP with some of the proposed ideas on how to fix GL.
    coolitic wrote: »
    Those topics I believe were after 250, when gl and flamers were OP beyond proportions.

    Right now I think they're fine, but GL getting direct hits on fades gets kind of annoying.

    Wat. See the topic dates, some date back as far as 2012, and build 250 came out 8 months ago.

    GL has been an issue since the beta, the antistructure weapon that is more commonly used against players, ever since beta. It used to be worse when it was an attachment (LMG + GL with player damage) because there was no downside compared to LMG (well, you lost rifle butt and it was OP for a while as compared to utterly useless like now), and the only things besides making it standalone was making it structual dmg (2x vs structures), doesn't stop it from being a viaable option to protect arcs or exos by simply spamming GL at their feet. Or other lameness like dropping an armory and just spamming endless waves of GL down a hallway (you can lock hives down that way).

    And semi-oneshotting people with a weapon that requires zero 0 aim or barely any skill to use is not fine IMO.


    Compare it to TF2's GL and sticky launcher, it's a weapon that is really strong, but it actually requires skill to use properly, the AoE dmg isn't as large, and the grenades are properly network compensated so you can actually avoid them, and you'll see them easily on the ground due to their very bright colours.
    As for the the skills you need to use, the projectiles are somewhat effected by physics, so to hit running targets (esp scouts and such), you need to aim ahead and good timing, to use the sticky launcher you also need that skill and as for trap laying find and use good positions.

    But keep in mind NS2's GL is meant to be anti-structure, and each weapon has a distinct role (or, at least UWE tried to give it one). Should not be anti-player, and if it should be, it should be fair and people should have more chances to avoid it if possible and as well that a skilled GL player can use it properly.

    In NS2 projectile implementation pretty much sucks, applies to gorge projectiles but is even worse for the GL.
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Played a game, was fade, we all grouped up to attack a PG, obis went in, I just touch the PG when marines started the phase back, I died instantly as they all had GLs didn't even hear them fire was insane, lost my lerk to 1 shot from a lvl 3 GL,
    Few things that could be done, off course lower the P.Damage, increase the PRes cost of GLs or limit how many the marine team can have on the field at once.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    I'm still amazed there isn't a cooldown for buying hand grenades. It's funny when marines put an armory right outside an area they're about to attack and just spam endless hand nades into the Alien defense, such skill.

    I wouldn't worry about that. Hand grenades cost pRes. Our comm did this once on Biodome as a bit of fun (we had the whole map (literally), all rts except platform res (alien hive), he put an armory outside (from filtration side). 3 marines just got cluster grens and spammed the hive (we couldn't kills it - 1 crag basically nullified the cluster from 3 players constantly spamming). In the end we got bored (the res flow was such we could keep getting the grenades without running out of pRes) and brought shotties and just took the hive down.
  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Members
    I get the distinct impression that this is an issue that requires balancing for large servers and as a result is best left up to the modding community to resolve.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    I'm still amazed there isn't a cooldown for buying hand grenades. It's funny when marines put an armory right outside an area they're about to attack and just spam endless hand nades into the Alien defense, such skill.

    I wouldn't worry about that. Hand grenades cost pRes. Our comm did this once on Biodome as a bit of fun (we had the whole map (literally), all rts except platform res (alien hive), he put an armory outside (from filtration side). 3 marines just got cluster grens and spammed the hive (we couldn't kills it - 1 crag basically nullified the cluster from 3 players constantly spamming). In the end we got bored (the res flow was such we could keep getting the grenades without running out of pRes) and brought shotties and just took the hive down.

    I had a bot game, 8 marines, vs 16 aliens. We were winning. Sentries and mines are OP, not to mention bot AI. We decided to kill hive with grenades. Not only were they not effective at killing skulks, it took us too long to kill hive. We got bored.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    While I definitely agree to the spirit of this thread regarding GL spam, one thing that really bugs me when I'm a marine with a JP+GL is when I meet an alien en route and shoot it in the face, only to be too close and have the nade drop to the floor, doing more damage to me than to the alien.

    I had this happen a couple of days ago with a drifter.
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