Endgame Marine Turtling & GL spam
rantology
Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
<div class="IPBDescription">they muddy the game experience</div>Title says it all, really.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Point 1:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Endgame marine turtling has always been a problem in this game. In this respect I think it's because the Tier 3 alien abilities are sorely lacking. Umbra is about the only one worth using. Onos, Gorge do not even have one (well, Onos lacks a t2 I guess, not a t3 - stomp is however extremely buggy and it's effectiveness late game is somewhat gimmicky). Vortex mechanic as a whole is poor, crowd control and structure control should not be in a shooter game in this manner. Xenocide is poor, due to the armory healing of NS2 and the RFD system in place. So in short 4 of the 5 alien classes Tier 3 abilities need a reboot.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->
Point 2:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Grenade Launcher needs to do half damage to players. Enough said. To elaborate:
- A single Tier 3 grenade will take a Fade down to 65% effective HP. It only takes 3 grenade hits to kill a full HP/AP cara fade.
-A single Tier 3 grenade takes a cara Lerk down to 44% effective HP.
Even a single marine sitting there spamming grenades will massively contribute to marine turtling effectiveness. Not to mention the effects of a GL in actual game play during the course of a match. The GL is meant to be anti-structure, but at the moment it also does <u>75% of the damage that a 100% accurate shotgun blast would</u>, but it does it in a large AoE that you can fire from range. It should not be so effective against players.
So in closing, I was wondering what everyone thinks of the current state of the endgame and how it can be improved. Obviously IMO the lack of t3 alien effectiveness and the ridiculous player damage of the GL are big contributors, but again I would like to see what everyone else thinks. The state of the endgame can really make pub games a pretty negative experience right now.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Point 1:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Endgame marine turtling has always been a problem in this game. In this respect I think it's because the Tier 3 alien abilities are sorely lacking. Umbra is about the only one worth using. Onos, Gorge do not even have one (well, Onos lacks a t2 I guess, not a t3 - stomp is however extremely buggy and it's effectiveness late game is somewhat gimmicky). Vortex mechanic as a whole is poor, crowd control and structure control should not be in a shooter game in this manner. Xenocide is poor, due to the armory healing of NS2 and the RFD system in place. So in short 4 of the 5 alien classes Tier 3 abilities need a reboot.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->
Point 2:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Grenade Launcher needs to do half damage to players. Enough said. To elaborate:
- A single Tier 3 grenade will take a Fade down to 65% effective HP. It only takes 3 grenade hits to kill a full HP/AP cara fade.
-A single Tier 3 grenade takes a cara Lerk down to 44% effective HP.
Even a single marine sitting there spamming grenades will massively contribute to marine turtling effectiveness. Not to mention the effects of a GL in actual game play during the course of a match. The GL is meant to be anti-structure, but at the moment it also does <u>75% of the damage that a 100% accurate shotgun blast would</u>, but it does it in a large AoE that you can fire from range. It should not be so effective against players.
So in closing, I was wondering what everyone thinks of the current state of the endgame and how it can be improved. Obviously IMO the lack of t3 alien effectiveness and the ridiculous player damage of the GL are big contributors, but again I would like to see what everyone else thinks. The state of the endgame can really make pub games a pretty negative experience right now.
Comments
On a serious note: increase time between grenade shots by 50%, increase reload time by 50%. Damage output more than halved, but grenade launchers will still perform exactly as they do currently in the situations that they are supposed to perform well in. IE statically held position, or at least well defended.
Oh, and give the Gorge the ability to devour guns.
Yeah no. The GL already feels slow as hell in both of those areas. Rather have a damage modifier reduce it so the marine doesn't have to feel gimped, still gets that visceral feeling and isn't a lifeform killing machine.
GL is horrible. . .
I was probably going ask for some buffs to it soon because of how slowly it travels <i>(you can't hit anything)</i>
Marine comm that rush it usually end up losing the game if they don't go for a hive that has a long arcing shot open
If anything I'd say make GL a powerhouse, but make it cost more <i>(30-40 res range)</i>
Or leave it the same and give it contact grenades <i>(nobody does corner shots with it)</i>
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Marine turtling really isn't a problem anymore due to Alien Comm being able to spam onos eggs if you have control of the map
3-4 onos and it's pretty well GG. . . nade spam does nothing against it <i>(especially with stomp)</i>
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You can fire at the exit and fleeing aliens often die on their way out.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Point 1:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Endgame marine turtling has always been a problem in this game. In this respect I think it's because the Tier 3 alien abilities are sorely lacking. Umbra is about the only one worth using. Onos, Gorge do not even have one (well, Onos lacks a t2 I guess, not a t3 - stomp is however extremely buggy and it's effectiveness late game is somewhat gimmicky). Vortex mechanic as a whole is poor, crowd control and structure control should not be in a shooter game in this manner. Xenocide is poor, due to the armory healing of NS2 and the RFD system in place. So in short 4 of the 5 alien classes Tier 3 abilities need a reboot.
[color="#9ACD32"]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bring back acid rocket! Roar!
Definitely agree alien T3 needs some love as well. Where's primal scream, where's the gorge T3 ability? Buff up xenocide and rework vortex.
You can fire at the exit and fleeing aliens often die on their way out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, learn to predict your shots or stick to the hitscan weapons.
<!--quoteo(post=1997409:date=Oct 26 2012, 02:07 AM:name=PowerfuryOA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PowerfuryOA @ Oct 26 2012, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997409"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bring back acid rocket! Roar!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This might be worth a try.
Alternatively, we could buff Xenocide. I've never seen it kill somebody during the beta.
This just came to me, what if vortex created, well, a vortex with small radius in front of (or around?) the fade that would grab the fade and 1-2 marines to a different phase (sort of like the feign death phase) where they could only see and interact with eachother for like 4 seconds before spitting them out again? Could be used to shake up heavily defended bases or to pick off welders from the exo. But the fade could still be killed in there obviously or when phasing back. And you shouldn't be able to spam it constantly.
No idea if that would be fun or horrible or totally broken, just throwing it out there yo!
No idea if that would be fun or horrible or totally broken, just throwing it out there yo!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds pretty awesome, though I reckon usually that's just going to make it even easier for the fade to score kills :p
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->Point 1:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Endgame marine turtling has always been a problem in this game. In this respect I think it's because the Tier 3 alien abilities are sorely lacking. Umbra is about the only one worth using. Onos, Gorge do not even have one (well, Onos lacks a t2 I guess, not a t3 - stomp is however extremely buggy and it's effectiveness late game is somewhat gimmicky). Vortex mechanic as a whole is poor, crowd control and structure control should not be in a shooter game in this manner. Xenocide is poor, due to the armory healing of NS2 and the RFD system in place. So in short 4 of the 5 alien classes Tier 3 abilities need a reboot.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->
Point 2:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Grenade Launcher needs to do half damage to players. Enough said. To elaborate:
- A single Tier 3 grenade will take a Fade down to 65% effective HP. It only takes 3 grenade hits to kill a full HP/AP cara fade.
-A single Tier 3 grenade takes a cara Lerk down to 44% effective HP.
Even a single marine sitting there spamming grenades will massively contribute to marine turtling effectiveness. Not to mention the effects of a GL in actual game play during the course of a match. The GL is meant to be anti-structure, but at the moment it also does <u>75% of the damage that a 100% accurate shotgun blast would</u>, but it does it in a large AoE that you can fire from range. It should not be so effective against players.
So in closing, I was wondering what everyone thinks of the current state of the endgame and how it can be improved. Obviously IMO the lack of t3 alien effectiveness and the ridiculous player damage of the GL are big contributors, but again I would like to see what everyone else thinks. The state of the endgame can really make pub games a pretty negative experience right now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree totally, though most "vocal" people will argue otherwise (which is why the games so havily marine weighted currently)
Grendades doing either 50% damage to friendlies or 50% splashback to firer is needed. Grenades chew up skulks and gorges like candy.
Another 1 Shot weapon for marines against most common lifeforms , to add to the SG.
Also I think this builds a case for marines upgrades (weapons and armour) being tied to tech points, level 1 weapons are less damaging than W3.
Considering aliens on 1 hive are just fodder having marines so overpowered when the games meant to be over needlessly drags things out.
Make the highest weapons damage linked to tech points (the same way it is for aliens) and we will address this late game turtle.
There was a build where xenocide made it into the game "by accident". It was actually useful at that point, you could jump into 3 marines and kill them all :D
Considering aliens on 1 hive are just fodder having marines so overpowered when the games meant to be over needlessly drags things out.
Make the highest weapons damage linked to tech points (the same way it is for aliens) and we will address this late game turtle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I can't see why advanced armory couldn't be made to require two tech points to function. That would make more sense to me.
But you could always try removing the armory's ability to heal armor again.
2?
Not a chance if there's an exo or two and a lot of marines with T3 weapons, plus the GLs.
Perhaps 4 would be more of a safe bet.
its like ~17? seconds for an alien to be fully healed by a hive, let alone a crag at 10 hp a tick or a gorge without adren/shift
Definitely agree alien T3 needs some love as well. Where's primal scream, where's the gorge T3 ability? Buff up xenocide and rework vortex.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not just a matter of coordination, though. aliens are severely limited when it comes to pushing. you have to be <i>so</i> far ahead to just bust your way into their base with a bunch of onos. otherwise, you have to play it extremely tactical, hoping for a miracle while your fades and lerks are afraid to get close to the marines despite the fact that they've been winning for the last 30 minutes.
first, just some anecdotal evidence
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/RXFof.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I've played a little over a quarter the amount of games on alien as I have on marine, yet I have over half the amount of playtime on alien. games where you're winning as alien <i>take forever</i>. other than the onos, there's really no lifeform that has the pushing ability that marines have with armories, jetpacks, shotguns, grenade launchers, and welders. you always have to play from behind and play passively regardless of how far ahead you are, due to the ridiculous amount of damage output that shotguns and GLs have.
it's really frustrating when marines can simply mass up jetpacks or shotguns and go end the game when they're very far ahead. for alien, short of dropping mass onos eggs (which would be a disaster on some of the more cramped maps), it's extremely difficult to just "end" the game, no matter how far ahead you are.
the culprit is partially with weapons upgrade 3, and partially with GLs. it's far too effective at killing lifeforms. even when assaulting the hive, the GL has so much splash that no lifeform is able to sit by the hive and heal. it just does way too much splash damage.
T3 alien abilities are pretty trash, but this amount of turtling is possible even during the midgame. the abilities could definitely be improved, but I'd rather see them come into play when the game isn't already over. :/
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines respawn in 7 seconds from an IP, get healed fully by an armory in 7 seconds. This coupled with dual exos that do 25 dmg per shot with no ammunition limit, gls with too large of a splash radius, all make it easy to turtle as marines against aliens with weak 3 hive abilities overall (besides umbra).
its like ~17? seconds for an alien to be fully healed by a hive, let alone a crag at 10 hp a tick or a gorge without adren/shift<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is pretty silly too, there's only one location for healing and you have to wait forever. in some situations, I'd argue it's better for marines to do significant damage to aliens (like the first engagement of the game), because it forces aliens to go heal for the next two hours.
Just because they are down to 1 CC does not mean they will be without JP's and EXO's....played many games where we have 2-3 exo's and a couple of Jp's holding out with 1 base for 10+ min.
If aliens fall to pieces at 1 hive marines should at 1 tech point...given that aliens dont actually get any stronger lifeforms form what they start with (ie Onos, fade, lerk, gorge & skulks all do the same damage 1 min in that they do 15 min in) yet marines get stronger.
1) Decrease GL magazine size to 1.
2) Have obstacles, like players/exos/structures, decrease GL dmg. It would allow partial cover while healing at hives.
3) Minimum grenade flight time, to prevent spamming at close-range.
4) Combination of the above, or other suggestions.
Proposal #1:
Instead of increasing reload, and decreasing fire rates, you could simply decrease the magazine size of the grenade launcher. For whatever reason, shotguns in this game are pump-action as opposed to the fully automatic shotgun variants we already have in modern firearms.
Perhaps simply create a 'China-Lake'-like grenade launcher that only carries one grenade. To compensate, decrease the weight of the weapon, which makes the wielder more mobile, and require more 'aiming' as opposed to spamming grenades. It would also have the added benefit of practically forcing the marine to stick with squad members, as going alone with a single-'mag' grenade launcher is a surefire way to lose it.
Proposal #2:
This one is arguably more difficult to implement, and may even decrease server/player performance. I am no programmer, but I think that if there is an exosuit between you (the alien), and the grenade explosion, there should be a large damage reduction. For example, if a grenade explodes outside the tank, you wouldn't expect the crew to be hurt by shrapnel, which is the main killing power of most explosives (outside of the WMDs, which don't apply here... yet lol).
So if there's a marine/exo/structure between you and the nade, it should reduce nade damage.
This idea doesn't have the benefit of protecting you from direct hits, or wonky hitboxes, however. It's not the first time I've been shot around corners due to interp.
Proposal #3:
Have a minimum arming time for grenades. Many-a-time I have had marines fire at their feet, kill me (skulk), and yet they remain alive to run to an armory. I believe the idea of 'dud' grenades was already proposed in this thread.
I think a combination of all the above could help minimize GL 'spammage'.
Not a chance if there's an exo or two and a lot of marines with T3 weapons, plus the GLs.
Perhaps 4 would be more of a safe bet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 is normally a sure bet. Just a had game where the marines were turtling in Flight Control with GLs and refused to recycle. They couldn't win but we had to wait for 4-5 people to save up for Onos to win. It's pretty boring waiting for that to happen.
I think what we need:
- Advanced Armory, Grenade Launchers, Flamethrowers require 2nd CC
- Grenade Launchers should be doing structural damage, halve current amount (would do same against structures, less to players)
- Fix Prototype Lab to only allow purchases if you have a 2nd CC <b>that is powered</b>
- Force marines to research armour and weapon upgrades again if they lose the Arms Lab that had them<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think if we're talking about restricting Flamethrowers and GLs to needing a second CC we shouldn't restrict armor and weapons upgrades also. We don't want them to be in the same boat aliens are in right now where once your second hive is killed it's time to quit the game.
Why not? Why do Marines get special non-f4-ragequit treatment?