<!--quoteo(post=1997363:date=Oct 25 2012, 06:22 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 25 2012, 06:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1997363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The GL is meant to be anti-structure<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Defend this point. I don't have any sense that the GL is supposed to be anti-structure. Structures are weaker in NS2 than they were in NS, and the GL in turn is even weaker against structures than it was before. Not only that, but we have a strong anti structure weapon, the flame thrower. The GL is supposed to be a crowd control weapon. It may be that it does that job a little too well, but that's really the only job is still has, it has to be tolerable at it.
<!--quoteo(post=2003725:date=Oct 31 2012, 06:46 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Oct 31 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2003725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Defend this point. I don't have any sense that the GL is supposed to be anti-structure. Structures are weaker in NS2 than they were in NS, and the GL in turn is even weaker against structures than it was before. Not only that, but we have a strong anti structure weapon, the flame thrower. The GL is supposed to be a crowd control weapon. It may be that it does that job a little too well, but that's really the only job is still has, it has to be tolerable at it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have funny definition of crowd control.
The GL can be pretty effective at killing players simply by spamming it. The damage is done in a massive AoE radius, the projectiles have a very long range and can be fired around corners, and the fact that this is intended to be a skill-based shooter game, the design of the weapon is arguably counter-intuitive to the game design philosophy. I personally really dislike such random, unskillful gib mechanics, but that's just me (see my OP on how many grenades it takes to gib a fade or lerk).
Perhaps the player damage would be fine if the AoE radius was reduced. Or that the damage fall-off for indirect hits was steeper so that the chances of random spamming killing life forms was lower, and that accuracy with the weapon would be very rewarding. At the moment it's the 'noob tube' of NS2 though, because most people spam it mindlessly.
(and the weapon damage type is Structural Damage, so yes that implies that it's meant to be anti-structure)
<!--quoteo(post=2003753:date=Oct 31 2012, 08:08 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 31 2012, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2003753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You have funny definition of crowd control.
The GL can be pretty effective at killing players simply by spamming it. The damage is done in a massive AoE radius, the projectiles have a very long range and can be fired around corners, and the fact that this is intended to be a skill-based shooter game, the design of the weapon is arguably counter-intuitive to the game design philosophy. I personally really dislike such random, unskillful gib mechanics, but that's just me (see my OP on how many grenades it takes to gib a fade or lerk).
Perhaps the player damage would be fine if the AoE radius was reduced. Or that the damage fall-off for indirect hits was steeper so that the chances of random spamming killing life forms was lower, and that accuracy with the weapon would be very rewarding. At the moment it's the 'noob tube' of NS2 though, because most people spam it mindlessly.
(and the weapon damage type is Structural Damage, so yes that implies that it's meant to be anti-structure)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Calculating in reload time it has only slightly more DPS against structures than the AR, and less than the shotgun. It uses a structural damage type because the AOE effect is basically a gigantic buff vs moving lifeforms. It needs some factor to offset the difference against structures.
You know its a funny thing, NS1 was a very well balanced game. If the marines lost structures they had to rebuild them, and research them over again. NO different for Aliens who lost hives, they still had to grow the hive again. If your going to give Marines instant level based on leveling once before, then you should also give Aliens Instant grown hive if they had two before. Somehow there has to be a "fair" balance to both sides. On NS1 I loved that each player accumulated points and each player could effectively manage their own points and either hold out for Hive or evolve to a higher creature. This mean that if your team could not get their act together you could still work independently and even help in a major way to save the win for your team.
In the Current Build Aliens seem nerfed to me. Once Hives were up in NS1 it meant you had instant abilities, you didnt have to research them. I also think I am still trying to play NS2 like NS1 functioned. Hit boxes are different weapon damages are way different I feel. OK I am done rambling on. I know that UWE will find a balance in the game in spite of all the players differences, that is what has made NS so great a game.
<!--quoteo(post=2003837:date=Nov 1 2012, 03:10 AM:name=AgentX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AgentX @ Nov 1 2012, 03:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2003837"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know its a funny thing, NS1 was a very well balanced game. If the marines lost structures they had to rebuild them, and research them over again. NO different for Aliens who lost hives, they still had to grow the hive again. If your going to give Marines instant level based on leveling once before, then you should also give Aliens Instant grown hive if they had two before. Somehow there has to be a "fair" balance to both sides. On NS1 I loved that each player accumulated points and each player could effectively manage their own points and either hold out for Hive or evolve to a higher creature. This mean that if your team could not get their act together you could still work independently and even help in a major way to save the win for your team.
In the Current Build Aliens seem nerfed to me. Once Hives were up in NS1 it meant you had instant abilities, you didnt have to research them. I also think I am still trying to play NS2 like NS1 functioned. Hit boxes are different weapon damages are way different I feel. OK I am done rambling on. I know that UWE will find a balance in the game in spite of all the players differences, that is what has made NS so great a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? marines in NS2 dont have to research stuff ? O.o hopefully that isnt so, that is highly imbalanced. that means they arent as nervous about loosing structures.
Having dealt with a couple of marine turtle games in my last games the GL seems to help the area defence but isnt entirely the main issue i mean one GL isnt too much of an issue, but when you have 2-3+ damage vs organics would make more sense, the main issue seemed to be respawn time and armouries, if it still existed exo's too as they case we had is that it just sat back denying the door ways. Eventually though the GL/Exo's ran out and it was just a hoard of marines respawning too quick for us to anything to effectively flush them out.
What if there were some kind of diminishing returns if too many IP's where stacking in close proximity? 2 being generally OK but once you get 3+ in an area you start getting longer respawns? or some sort of "doom timer" if aliens can keep the majority of the map covered by infestation, i mean if theyre managing to lock it down into a turtled marine base short of the alien team quitting there isnt going to be a comeback, so why not just draw it out if the game is over x time, aliens have y% of map covered and power dropped in other areas and such so it just out right denies turtling for the sake of a fruitless last stand.
Or limit it to two or three IP's per room. A structure cap is nothing to be afraid of. As long as it's made intuitive.
Armories is a thougher nut though. Maybe some kind of inverted electrify structures tier 3 (edit:) <u>range</u> ability for some Alien lifeform. If hit, the Marine structure dashes out damage to Marines within proximity for a time. I guess Vortex is doing something similar, but is it really feasible to jump in through a hail of lead and a shield of area denial spam grenades with a 50 res lifeform to just Vortex the Armory for a few seconds?
The big thing I noticed is that, if we were getting hit in our base, I could buy a GL, spam it, die, pick it up, spam it, die etc etc. The penalty for dieing was I had about 10 seconds of downtime. Yet when my spam killed an onos or gorge? Huge help.
I understand the basic balance between the races, I just do not understand why marines suffer so many fewer penalties for both dieing and losing structures. I was able to afford 2 exosuits, a couple GL, and 2 or so shotguns in a game where my K/D was around 1/4. I died a ton, yet just kept retrieving my weapons. Whereas, with aliens, I actually stay as skulk to avoid wasting res, but then marines still seem to be better equipped than myself late game. So either I spend res, which goes away when I die, for the ability to kill marines who will keep their strength by retrieving weapons, or I stay as skulk and accept a disadvantage. Aliens have to have amazing K/D ratios to draw even it seems. Even spending res conservatively, I have yet to use an onos simply because I have to spend it from time to time, a problem I never have with marines. Why are the marine so forgiving to play?
Obvious solution to endgame turtling would be to make Xenocide as powerful as it was in NS1, where a well-timed Xeno-Leap could take out any fully-teched up marine adn damage structures.. and when you saw a horde of skulks rushing the base endgame, and heard that Xeno sound, marines used to duck for cover..
Buffing Xenocide works on so many levels: - Its aleady in the game, although currently as lame as hell. - It makes endgame skulks effective, enjoyable and fun - Its a good counter for jp marines, with skill. - It adds to the atmosphere - one endgame skulk currently is insignificant to a marine squad, but an endgame skulk with an effective Xeno is a thing of real FEAR
You can't just buff an ability to resolve one scenario. Buffing/nerfing has to be done out of isolation and take in to account its useful application in all scenarios. Thus providing balance.
I'm not saying don't buff xeno, I'm just saying, don't use and isolated scenario as motivation. Like evilgreenie mentioned, buffing it does add a lot to the game.
End-game turtling? Sounds like "lack of cooperation among the aliens" to me. Mostly by players who think their beloved Rambonos is the <i>only </i>alien life form. You can witness this line of thinking in this thread as well... every time the only strategy that can be thought of is "MOAR ONI WILL SOLVE MAH PROBELM!!1!"
Once our team agrees on a plan with a mixed life form composition, our final attack force almost always sweeps the marine base clean the very first try.
An alien combo is much more than the sum of its parts. Think about the lerk gas in a small, cramped room. Lethal to any marine that is not sitting in an exo suit (and if it's their last base - how the hell can there be any significant number left?)
If anything, this reminds me to never play on 24 slots servers.
On Tech3 alien abilities: Sure, I'd like to see more/useful ones. But an auto-timer to end the game sounds like the definition of boring. So you spent the whole game capturing all those points and now when you finally got the money to employ your expensive stuff, the game ends itself. Reminds me of modern FPSs where you have to sit through hours upon hours of unskippable cut-scenes...
Nevertheless, there should be a tangible reward for the effort of holding 4 tech points. During one of the beta builds you could pick 5 evolutions if you team held 5 hives on Mineshaft. I liked that.
Comments
Defend this point. I don't have any sense that the GL is supposed to be anti-structure. Structures are weaker in NS2 than they were in NS, and the GL in turn is even weaker against structures than it was before. Not only that, but we have a strong anti structure weapon, the flame thrower. The GL is supposed to be a crowd control weapon. It may be that it does that job a little too well, but that's really the only job is still has, it has to be tolerable at it.
You have funny definition of crowd control.
The GL can be pretty effective at killing players simply by spamming it. The damage is done in a massive AoE radius, the projectiles have a very long range and can be fired around corners, and the fact that this is intended to be a skill-based shooter game, the design of the weapon is arguably counter-intuitive to the game design philosophy. I personally really dislike such random, unskillful gib mechanics, but that's just me (see my OP on how many grenades it takes to gib a fade or lerk).
Perhaps the player damage would be fine if the AoE radius was reduced. Or that the damage fall-off for indirect hits was steeper so that the chances of random spamming killing life forms was lower, and that accuracy with the weapon would be very rewarding. At the moment it's the 'noob tube' of NS2 though, because most people spam it mindlessly.
(and the weapon damage type is Structural Damage, so yes that implies that it's meant to be anti-structure)
The GL can be pretty effective at killing players simply by spamming it. The damage is done in a massive AoE radius, the projectiles have a very long range and can be fired around corners, and the fact that this is intended to be a skill-based shooter game, the design of the weapon is arguably counter-intuitive to the game design philosophy. I personally really dislike such random, unskillful gib mechanics, but that's just me (see my OP on how many grenades it takes to gib a fade or lerk).
Perhaps the player damage would be fine if the AoE radius was reduced. Or that the damage fall-off for indirect hits was steeper so that the chances of random spamming killing life forms was lower, and that accuracy with the weapon would be very rewarding. At the moment it's the 'noob tube' of NS2 though, because most people spam it mindlessly.
(and the weapon damage type is Structural Damage, so yes that implies that it's meant to be anti-structure)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Calculating in reload time it has only slightly more DPS against structures than the AR, and less than the shotgun. It uses a structural damage type because the AOE effect is basically a gigantic buff vs moving lifeforms. It needs some factor to offset the difference against structures.
In the Current Build Aliens seem nerfed to me. Once Hives were up in NS1 it meant you had instant abilities, you didnt have to research them. I also think I am still trying to play NS2 like NS1 functioned. Hit boxes are different weapon damages are way different I feel. OK I am done rambling on. I know that UWE will find a balance in the game in spite of all the players differences, that is what has made NS so great a game.
In the Current Build Aliens seem nerfed to me. Once Hives were up in NS1 it meant you had instant abilities, you didnt have to research them. I also think I am still trying to play NS2 like NS1 functioned. Hit boxes are different weapon damages are way different I feel. OK I am done rambling on. I know that UWE will find a balance in the game in spite of all the players differences, that is what has made NS so great a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? marines in NS2 dont have to research stuff ? O.o hopefully that isnt so, that is highly imbalanced. that means they arent as nervous about loosing structures.
What if there were some kind of diminishing returns if too many IP's where stacking in close proximity? 2 being generally OK but once you get 3+ in an area you start getting longer respawns? or some sort of "doom timer" if aliens can keep the majority of the map covered by infestation, i mean if theyre managing to lock it down into a turtled marine base short of the alien team quitting there isnt going to be a comeback, so why not just draw it out if the game is over x time, aliens have y% of map covered and power dropped in other areas and such so it just out right denies turtling for the sake of a fruitless last stand.
Armories is a thougher nut though. Maybe some kind of inverted electrify structures tier 3 (edit:) <u>range</u> ability for some Alien lifeform. If hit, the Marine structure dashes out damage to Marines within proximity for a time. I guess Vortex is doing something similar, but is it really feasible to jump in through a hail of lead and a shield of area denial spam grenades with a 50 res lifeform to just Vortex the Armory for a few seconds?
I understand the basic balance between the races, I just do not understand why marines suffer so many fewer penalties for both dieing and losing structures. I was able to afford 2 exosuits, a couple GL, and 2 or so shotguns in a game where my K/D was around 1/4. I died a ton, yet just kept retrieving my weapons. Whereas, with aliens, I actually stay as skulk to avoid wasting res, but then marines still seem to be better equipped than myself late game. So either I spend res, which goes away when I die, for the ability to kill marines who will keep their strength by retrieving weapons, or I stay as skulk and accept a disadvantage. Aliens have to have amazing K/D ratios to draw even it seems. Even spending res conservatively, I have yet to use an onos simply because I have to spend it from time to time, a problem I never have with marines. Why are the marine so forgiving to play?
Buffing Xenocide works on so many levels:
- Its aleady in the game, although currently as lame as hell.
- It makes endgame skulks effective, enjoyable and fun
- Its a good counter for jp marines, with skill.
- It adds to the atmosphere - one endgame skulk currently is insignificant to a marine squad, but an endgame skulk with an effective Xeno is a thing of real FEAR
I'm not saying don't buff xeno, I'm just saying, don't use and isolated scenario as motivation. Like evilgreenie mentioned, buffing it does add a lot to the game.
Mostly by players who think their beloved Rambonos is the <i>only </i>alien life form.
You can witness this line of thinking in this thread as well... every time the only strategy that can be thought of is "MOAR ONI WILL SOLVE MAH PROBELM!!1!"
Once our team agrees on a plan with a mixed life form composition, our final attack force almost always sweeps the marine base clean the very first try.
An alien combo is much more than the sum of its parts. Think about the lerk gas in a small, cramped room. Lethal to any marine that is not sitting in an exo suit (and if it's their last base - how the hell can there be any significant number left?)
If anything, this reminds me to never play on 24 slots servers.
On Tech3 alien abilities: Sure, I'd like to see more/useful ones.
But an auto-timer to end the game sounds like the definition of boring.
So you spent the whole game capturing all those points and now when you finally got the money to employ your expensive stuff, the game ends itself.
Reminds me of modern FPSs where you have to sit through hours upon hours of unskippable cut-scenes...
Nevertheless, there should be a tangible reward for the effort of holding 4 tech points.
During one of the beta builds you could pick 5 evolutions if you team held 5 hives on Mineshaft. I liked that.