Personally, I think it's probably not a problem if it were updated this far ahead of the tournament, but I do understand & respect the concerns raised about changes prior to the finals. The most compelling reason not to update sooner is, in my view, the same reason to update sooner! Getting public play in the best possible place ready to make the best first impression is very important - there will likely be a good number of new players following the NS2WC.
These High level teams will have no problem adapting, to insinuate otherwise is pretty ridiculous (jest aside). Also to suggest that it would be unfair on the teams that didn't make the finals is kinda silly - all teams played under the same rules in the group stages and all teams accepted those rules, so there really wouldn't be a basis for complaint.
Greedy Roo wants these changes sooner, but Reasonable Roo would understand and accept a delay.
Its not like the changes are another B250 or reinforced again.. suggesting that it could have changed the final 4 is pretty sad. I cannot think of any changes that would take months of practice to master, let alone 5 games. Its simply going to come down to effectiveness of certain changes, and should they prove too effective there is literally a 5 second change that can be implemented to fix that.
UWE's history of quickly fixing broken things is... I think nonexistant is the best word.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited January 2014
I think we've come up with a solution that will solve all the problems. Release the patch early, and simply revert the [redacted] balance changes in the NS2WC mod.
There is only 1 real balance change in the patch and it's questionable that it will have any major impact (if any at all) on competitive. There are however, several bug fixes that competitive players have been asking to get for months. I would really like to see this patch out as soon as possible.
You got to make sure you are sitting on a solid chair that will reliably prevent you from dropping the floor and rolling around in uncontrollable laughter of irony,
because the 4 very best teams in the whole world are not able to adapt to changes in a game that is (fasten seat belts) called Natural Selection,
despite having almost a full month for familiarization, analysis and preparation.
I was thinking more about the fact that the games they played to make it to the finals in the first place are no longer valid. They did not get there playing THAT game. If you want to play a tournament, you have to keep everything consistent (if possible) for the duration, otherwise it is going to be unfair on SOMEONE. Who knows, maybe if the group stages were played on that patch instead of this one we'd have a different 4 teams.
How is it unfair to anyone exactly? Everyone played on the same patch to qualify.
You got to make sure you are sitting on a solid chair that reliably will prevent you from dropping the floor and rolling around in uncontrollable laughter of irony,
because the 4 very best super pro teams in the whole world are not able to adapt to changes in a game that is (fasten seat belts) called Natural Selection,
despite having almost a full month for familiarization, analysis and preparation.
What a belligerent and naive post. You obviously do not understand what goes into high level play.
So still... why couldn't they just split new content and balance stuff into one patch right after the NS2WC Finals and release bug fixes asap? Hell if theres new content and stuff you could use the NS2WC live finals as a way to "release" the info.
Maybe there's gonna be another big promotional event on Steam or HumbleBundle to go along with the hype around the NS2WC and they want to release the new build in time with that or something?
I was however under the impression that major content type work on NS2 had ended now (ie. "UWE's work here is done") so will be somewhat intrigued by what new content they have in store for us. Unless it's some minor addition like a new type of grenade or something...
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
A steam beta build would be for stress testing systems rather than getting balance feedback. We could get a lot of useful data even with a fairly small number of participating users.
As for what systems, well, I'll just leave that to your imaginations... ;D
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
I actually hope they roll the update out quietly (remember Reinforced when it was broken). I agree with @rantology, roll it out sooner rather than later so we can run it, get any bugs quished. That way, when the big promotion happens around the NS2WC finals, we have a good product to showcase. If it is put out after NS2WC, and there are bad bugs, it will come off very bad (and possibly lose the players you have just gained with the big event).
I was thinking more about the fact that the games they played to make it to the finals in the first place are no longer valid. They did not get there playing THAT game. If you want to play a tournament, you have to keep everything consistent (if possible) for the duration, otherwise it is going to be unfair on SOMEONE. Who knows, maybe if the group stages were played on that patch instead of this one we'd have a different 4 teams.
How is it unfair to anyone exactly? Everyone played on the same patch to qualify.
Because even the most minor of changes could have meant for a different final 4. For example, say one of the teams that succeeded won their alien games due to a lerk carry, and in this patch the lerk was nerfed. Say that they can no longer win alien games because of that, but some other team that didn't make it, but was close on points, is unaffected by the lerk nerf and can still win their alien games. There is a chance they would instead be in the final 4.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
by your reasoning @Ghosthree3, we should go back and re-run every tournament, including the beta tournaments, because the game has been re-balanced since those tournaments, and different teams might win now?
There was a tournament played on a version of NS2 and the tournament was to qualify for a trip to Germany and play live. Every team played by the same rules, and 4 teams won. If they now decided that the 4 teams at cologne not only have to play a different build, but are not allowed to use shotguns or fades, then so be it. It does not mean that you go and replay all the previous rounds without sg's and fades.
You take the teams that have qualified from an even playing field, and set the rules for the live show. If those rules be different, then so be it, you all had a fair chance at qualification to this last 4, if the rules are changed for this last 4, it does not affect what happened previously.
by your reasoning @Ghosthree3, we should go back and re-run every tournament, including the beta tournaments, because the game has been re-balanced since those tournaments, and different teams might win now?
No, I only mean for the duration of the tournament, you can reinvent the game between tournaments sure. But ideally, for the fairest play, a single tournament should have as few variables changed as possible.
Hope this next build is going to be good. Sometimes I think updates kinda ruin the game.. Like when the update came in that added all the grenades, I stopped playing for ages because I didn't like the changes made
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
Hope this next build is going to be good. Sometimes I think updates kinda ruin the game.. Like when the update came in that added all the grenades, I stopped playing for ages because I didn't like the changes made
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
The build has been taking a while to get out due to the amount of work needed for it. It's a big update and we all want it to go as smoothly as possible. The patch is being tested and worked on daily and will be out once it's golden brown on top. The Steam beta Hugh mentioned will help give feedback.
by your reasoning @Ghosthree3, we should go back and re-run every tournament, including the beta tournaments, because the game has been re-balanced since those tournaments, and different teams might win now?
No, I only mean for the duration of the tournament, you can reinvent the game between tournaments sure. But ideally, for the fairest play, a single tournament should have as few variables changed as possible.
I understand and agree with you to a point, but I view the NS2WC like the World Cup in football. You have qualifiers which end before the tournament, then the tournament itself takes place at a later date. Sometimes new rules and/or changes are introduced at the World Cup, but all the teams had a level playing field in the qualifiers, even if it was different from the playing field at the finals.
Hope this next build is going to be good. Sometimes I think updates kinda ruin the game.. Like when the update came in that added all the grenades, I stopped playing for ages because I didn't like the changes made
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
This guy knows whats needed in NS2, more cosmetic features and more remake maps. Because remake maps work so well and it doesn't eat up devtime on the real important performance, bug and balance updates. #-o
Hope this next build is going to be good. Sometimes I think updates kinda ruin the game.. Like when the update came in that added all the grenades, I stopped playing for ages because I didn't like the changes made
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
This guy knows whats needed in NS2, more cosmetic features and more remake maps. Because remake maps work so well and it doesn't eat up devtime on the real important performance, bug and balance updates. #-o
I will tell the mappers to stop mapping and start to fix some bugs. silly mappers. Perhaps cory could finally stop being lazy and fix some engine bugs too
Hope this next build is going to be good. Sometimes I think updates kinda ruin the game.. Like when the update came in that added all the grenades, I stopped playing for ages because I didn't like the changes made
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
This guy knows whats needed in NS2, more cosmetic features and more remake maps. Because remake maps work so well and it doesn't eat up devtime on the real important performance, bug and balance updates. #-o
Yes new maps would be nice, and yes performance especially server side needs some work. BUT I think balance is fine now. If you play on a server with teams of equal skill +/- one rookie, you will get decent games. The only "balance" issue left I think is ensuring the two sides are skill-balanced. Hoping for some action on that front.
I don't think anyone here is against any of the changes... and we are definitely all for the bug fixes. Some of us just disagree with the timing of release. All of us, that know what is coming, are excited to see how this patch plays out.
Rofl. That is the best way I can word my thoughts without commenting on details.
The closest of the games for the final 4 was a 4-2, and IMO a small balance change would have had no impact on those games, after a couple rounds you could really see the stronger team in those games.
I could see resistance to changes if they were nerfs to a specific teams strats, but considering these are really buffs, and buffs to something no one plays with, I don't understand why its such a big deal. Everyone would have equal time to test and play with the changes, I don't really see anything 'unfair' about it.
these are really buffs, and buffs to something no one plays with, I don't understand why its such a big deal. Everyone would have equal time to test and play with the changes, I don't really see anything 'unfair' about it.
OH BOY, were hallucinations from Sewlek's balance test implemented in vanilla?
these are really buffs, and buffs to something no one plays with, I don't understand why its such a big deal. Everyone would have equal time to test and play with the changes, I don't really see anything 'unfair' about it.
OH BOY, were hallucinations from Sewlek's balance test implemented in vanilla?
Comments
These High level teams will have no problem adapting, to insinuate otherwise is pretty ridiculous (jest aside). Also to suggest that it would be unfair on the teams that didn't make the finals is kinda silly - all teams played under the same rules in the group stages and all teams accepted those rules, so there really wouldn't be a basis for complaint.
Greedy Roo wants these changes sooner, but Reasonable Roo would understand and accept a delay.
UWE's history of quickly fixing broken things is... I think nonexistant is the best word.
How is it unfair to anyone exactly? Everyone played on the same patch to qualify.
Release the patch asap.
You're being beyond ridiculous.
ROFL
Here's hoping!
I was however under the impression that major content type work on NS2 had ended now (ie. "UWE's work here is done") so will be somewhat intrigued by what new content they have in store for us. Unless it's some minor addition like a new type of grenade or something...
As for what systems, well, I'll just leave that to your imaginations... ;D
Doesn't seem right to me.
There was a tournament played on a version of NS2 and the tournament was to qualify for a trip to Germany and play live. Every team played by the same rules, and 4 teams won. If they now decided that the 4 teams at cologne not only have to play a different build, but are not allowed to use shotguns or fades, then so be it. It does not mean that you go and replay all the previous rounds without sg's and fades.
You take the teams that have qualified from an even playing field, and set the rules for the live show. If those rules be different, then so be it, you all had a fair chance at qualification to this last 4, if the rules are changed for this last 4, it does not affect what happened previously.
As far as balancing I don't know if anything needs changing, I guess UW know best.. I'd love to see some new maps though, especially if they're gonna be more NS1 remakes, or a classic weapons skin pack would be awesome.. I loved the look of the old shotgun in NS1
The build has been taking a while to get out due to the amount of work needed for it. It's a big update and we all want it to go as smoothly as possible. The patch is being tested and worked on daily and will be out once it's golden brown on top. The Steam beta Hugh mentioned will help give feedback.
I understand and agree with you to a point, but I view the NS2WC like the World Cup in football. You have qualifiers which end before the tournament, then the tournament itself takes place at a later date. Sometimes new rules and/or changes are introduced at the World Cup, but all the teams had a level playing field in the qualifiers, even if it was different from the playing field at the finals.
I will tell the mappers to stop mapping and start to fix some bugs. silly mappers. Perhaps cory could finally stop being lazy and fix some engine bugs too
Yes new maps would be nice, and yes performance especially server side needs some work. BUT I think balance is fine now. If you play on a server with teams of equal skill +/- one rookie, you will get decent games. The only "balance" issue left I think is ensuring the two sides are skill-balanced. Hoping for some action on that front.
Rofl. That is the best way I can word my thoughts without commenting on details.
I could see resistance to changes if they were nerfs to a specific teams strats, but considering these are really buffs, and buffs to something no one plays with, I don't understand why its such a big deal. Everyone would have equal time to test and play with the changes, I don't really see anything 'unfair' about it.
I can bet it's hallucinations.
I find this snippet taken from The Valve Handbook for New Employees (its a funny read for those interested) quite fitting:
Even more so valuable in a smaller company as UWE.
My money is on Exos *crossess fingers*