Banning players from the NS2WC
Mouse
The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
This discussion was created from comments split from: NS2WC Registration Open - Natural Selection 2.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
When I first heard about it, my immediate thought was "oh wow, that was silly of him, how funny". The idea that anyone in the NSWC admin group would be dense enough to punish him for it didn't even cross my mind. I still have trouble believing it actually happened. This goes beyond the rule mongering we saw during the beta, this is just pure incompetence.
Eissfeldt even suggested that he could stream every match he played in the tournament, which would show without a doubt that he isn't hacking, but that wasn't good enough either. I was really excited about the NSWC -- I was even considering making a comeback before this happened -- but there is no way I am going to support a tournament that is run in this way.
Unless the situation is rectified immediately, this tournament will live in infamy.
I would be suprised that anyone would believe that he could be cheating. The worst part is we offered to have him stream his screen publicly while playing in the tournament to clear his name but even that was denied.
We also asked if we would make it all the way to the studio if he was allowed to play there but that was also denied. Considering its an lan event it would be perfect way to clear his name but again it was not even considered.
Its a LAN and he could clear his name there. why should it be in anyway bad publicity for the game. If he shows is amazing skill and prove it on a LAN game that it was just something retarded.
everyone knows eisfeldt and he streamed like nearly 9 month straight everysingle pcw he played in godar.
I dont like the idea of the someone being punished so harsh .... and not get a chance to clear his name in anykind.
if the enemy team says "we dont want eisfeldt to play even if he streams it live" its fine.
Players and tournament admins have been using wallhacks to catch cheaters since NS1. It is the only way to reliably detect and prove that someone is wallhacking. If having had a wallhack installed is grounds for banning someone, I should've been banned 10 years ago, and so should dozens of other players who have never cheated in an actual match a single time in their lives -- their only crime having been attempting to prevent hackers from ruining this game.
Consider someone who stops a thief, takes the stolen goods from the thief, and goes back to the store to return it, only to be arrested for stealing because he was carrying stolen goods. It is obvious to anyone that this is a perversion of justice; abusing rules to punish desireable actions.
Last line is a bit excessive.
Silly installing hack in the first place, admins silly for caring its not like there's any proper detection for cheats/modding in the first place. Losing a good player is a shame, I doubt he cheated nor do I care if he did, but I can see why someone would see ban justified.
Out of curiosity are we going to see ingame screenshots kind of detection before the actually tournament?
This leaves us in a situation where we have to use what little we have, and that system is VAC. VAC is known for banning people even 6 months after suspected cheat usage and even thought there are false positives in the mix, 99% bans are real. The only real information source that deals with facts currently is his steam profile page that says he got banned 4 days ago.
There are no indications why he got banned or when he did cheat, everything else is pretty much rumours or Eissfeldt defending himself. It could've been the wallhacking video he was making (?) or he cheated previously in NS2 or ANY other game. We just don't know enough about this situation and I doubt that we can get any other facts in the future either. He obviously had malicious programs installed and it was up to him to download and install those and now he has to deal with the reprocussions (since he got caught).
That is why I don't think the current event admins made a wrong decision. I don't personally think he was hacking or will, but that's just an opinion and the event admins have to deal with facts here.
Cheers.
So there is a way to prove it, no need for demos, straight feed from his POV.
Everyone would be able to see these videos. live (with a delay) or otherwise, unless the admins requested us to make a private stream, which is also an option, of course, but noone would have any doubt it if was public anyways.
@nadyli is there a better anti-cheat system at the moment then steaming, to show that he is not cheating?
he could also add a webcam behind him to show his monitor and PC and use POV stream.
And a REF could check is PC with teamviewer for cheats, the webcam would prove that it is his PC and not that of someone else
He made something srsly retarded, but try at least to prove that he is not cheating. But he is not allowed to do so. Not even in a LIVE LAN event?
why not allow him to be at least in a LIVE event, if he gets the chance to go there?
The only way to find proof of people you suspect of cheating:
It's more like the thief got caught stealing and told the store owner that they only did it to show how someone else might be stealing. Then having the thief's family tell the police what a good guy he is.
Do I personally think he cheated in any matches? Not at all. However, when taking a vigilante approach you should make others aware of your actions, especially admins in the league and UWE. You take great risk upon yourself otherwise.
In any case, if it's about bad publicity, you could spin this entire thing the way you want to. Be it promoting a zero-tolerance policy against anyone who's ever caught using hacks, or promoting a community that shows understanding, allowing a well known player to clear his name in a community funded tournament the best way possible. I'd go for the latter, but that's just me I guess.
As for your suggestion that he should have informed the ensl admins and unknownworlds -- what in the world does unknownworlds have to do with this? -- that he was spectating players for hacks, I can only say that this is ridiculous. This would be like telling a witness that he has to call the police before taking a picture of a fleeing robber, thus letting the robber escape before the picture can be taken.
I'm going to use a real-world analogy here too: It's like watching someone suspiciously run out of a store with a bag, run up to you and ask you to hold it. You (stupidly) agree and then the cops show up and bust you. Could have been avoided if you just wisely said "No" and reported the suspect. For those of you about to scream "But that's not what happened here!"; let me remind you that this was an analogy of how to avoid the situation altogether.
Did it escape him on how a VAC-ban would be perceived on his account if he got one? Did that thought ever cross his mind? No? Then why not? His "story" here just doesn't make sense. Think about the message this sends: "VAC-Ban on your account? No worries, come on in and compete!" You gonna take the time to explain to the hundreds of people that don't know him this entire story behind the ban if it got out to the general public? No? Didn't think so.
I applaud the stance they took on this issue. He may or may not have, but he definitely did something very stupid which implicated him - and that's his fault. What happened is, oh what do we call that? Consequences! That's right! Lesson learned, move right along. I mean, prem div and others may know him - but I don't; and I'm sure hundreds of others don't either. Meaning all we'll focus on is that this event allows VAC-banned players to participate. How awesome. "Go out, get VAC banned! We'll take you anyways! It doesn't matter!" For some reason, I don't think there would be such an uproar if this was a Div 2 or 3 player - which is sad.
Personally, if I were Eiss and this happened to me - I would take it on the chin like a man. Not run to Fana and use his 'celebrity' to try to save me and fight my fight. I would realize I did something incredibly stupid and deal with the consequences.
As for your other slanderous accusation, Eissfeldt has not spoken a word to me. I know about the incident because I saw the picture that was posted on ensl and made my own investigations into the matter.
You should be ashamed of making these accusations when you know nothing of me, nor of Eissfeldt. You need to go take a long look in the mirror and see if this is really the kind of person you want to be. It shouldn't be.
1) Player loads cheat software on this PC
2) Player gets caught, receives VAC ban
3) Player then cooks up a weak story of 'trying to catch other cheaters' (similar to finding a crack pipe in someone's car when they are pulled over and them exclaiming "That ain't mine!")
4) Player receives consequences for his actions
5) Player learns life lesson.
Done.
Oh and:
I don't think you would. But that's just my opinion - which you will obviously disagree with; and that's okay.
He has streamed from his POV plenty of times in the past, and he offered to the same for the officials (with the performance penalty that this involves). Why would you even attempt to say that he's cheating when you can clearly check he's not in his twitch account?
This may all seem 'unfair', but why did he get himself into this situation in the first place? Why load it? Why not think about VAC-bans? Why not think about the repercussions if it's caught on your computer - even if you're not using it?
Where are the answers to these questions?
Oh I'm sorry, Fana. Did I do the blasphemous thing and disagree with you? Nice to know this is how you deal with people who 'don't see your way' in life. Nice.
I think others can agree that I bring up some valid points. A troll would not.
Why are you so emotionally invested in enforcing the zero tolerance policy and not giving anyone a chance to redeem themselves? Communities don't benefit from witchhunts and mob mentalities.
He's offered to stream in order to prove he's clean regardless of the performance penalty & how it might reflect on his gameplay, he wants his name to be clear.
Nowhere in the World Cup rules did it say that VAC banned players may not partake in the tournament, especially if it isn't even from the actual game which I think is complete and utter bullsht. But I guess they can change the rules whenever they want and to their liking, typical. I'm not saying that the ban is wrongly given and/or should be ignored, I don't know the full story but it shouldn't even matter.
There's plenty of proof out there that he doesn't cheat in NS2, both videos & competitive players (that aren't necessary close friends with him) are painting him clean. I personally think you admins are overreacting to this, I find it ridiculous.
The ideas we had with pov stream, webcam and even teamviewer is a harsh punishment because everything he does is shown live.
His internet is slowed down as well as lossing a big amount of FPS ingame. every competitiv player knows what a big impact a stream has on your FPS.
The only think we want for eisfeldt is the possibility to to clear his name for the NS2 community, so he can stay and play NS2.
In every other game you would just creat a new account and start over, but he was straight forward with the admins about his mistake.
like @IeptBarakat said we benefit more from being honest and give him a punishment with a chance of coming back, then banning him forever.
Doing something like this needs a punishment and everyone in this forum will agree on it, but zero tolerance is no solution if someone trys to prove to be innocent
Only after he got caught...
Anyways -
Well, I have to say that there are definitely different views on this issue - and I can respect them even if I don't necessarily agree (yes, even you Fana). However, I support the decision of the admins here. Kudos to you guys for not cracking under the pressure and standing by your decision. It just keeps the integrity of this whole thing solid, in my opinion, and sends a message to people to not do stupid things like get your account VAC-banned and that it's serious.
And as Locklear said, Good luck to all the teams! I will exit this debate now.
Goodbye.
We asked for that 1 year ago. You would need a ns2 screenshot system for that. Because ns2 can not access the steam screenshot system to take random screens.
At least i was told so.
No one said its nothing serious, but the solution shouldnt be zero tolerance. we could argue a lot about it.
e.g. the americans got much higher rate of ppl doing crimes then any other EU country, particularly the rate of repeat offenders.
Europeans try to get ppl back into the community instead of marking them as outsiders forever.
but thats way off topic.