Banning players from the NS2WC

MouseMouse The Lighter Side of PessimismMembers, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
This discussion was created from comments split from: NS2WC Registration Open - Natural Selection 2.
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  • AiorosAioros Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14850Posts: 256
    edited November 2013
    But why isnt he allowed to play in germany, if godar would reach it?
    Its a LAN and he could clear his name there. why should it be in anyway bad publicity for the game. If he shows is amazing skill and prove it on a LAN game that it was just something retarded.

    everyone knows eisfeldt and he streamed like nearly 9 month straight everysingle pcw he played in godar.
    I dont like the idea of the someone being punished so harsh .... and not get a chance to clear his name in anykind.

    if the enemy team says "we dont want eisfeldt to play even if he streams it live" its fine.
    BestProfileNamehalfofaheavenKattcattis
  • TrCTrC Members Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Posts: 1,024 Advanced user
    fanatic wrote: »
    Unless the situation is rectified immediately, this tournament will live in infamy.

    Last line is a bit excessive.

    Silly installing hack in the first place, admins silly for caring its not like there's any proper detection for cheats/modding in the first place. Losing a good player is a shame, I doubt he cheated nor do I care if he did, but I can see why someone would see ban justified.

    Out of curiosity are we going to see ingame screenshots kind of detection before the actually tournament?
    image
    #exertus / #team.fantasy @ Quakenet
    BlainnHamletsoccerguy243
  • nadylinadyli Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2007-11-01 Member: 62791Posts: 109
    I'm sorry about the lack of feedback in my previous post, but it really is pretty straight forward. Now, I'm not saying that he was hacking or will, but currently there is no real anti-cheat system built that can provide us enough evidence of future or past hacking.

    This leaves us in a situation where we have to use what little we have, and that system is VAC. VAC is known for banning people even 6 months after suspected cheat usage and even thought there are false positives in the mix, 99% bans are real. The only real information source that deals with facts currently is his steam profile page that says he got banned 4 days ago.

    There are no indications why he got banned or when he did cheat, everything else is pretty much rumours or Eissfeldt defending himself. It could've been the wallhacking video he was making (?) or he cheated previously in NS2 or ANY other game. We just don't know enough about this situation and I doubt that we can get any other facts in the future either. He obviously had malicious programs installed and it was up to him to download and install those and now he has to deal with the reprocussions (since he got caught).

    That is why I don't think the current event admins made a wrong decision. I don't personally think he was hacking or will, but that's just an opinion and the event admins have to deal with facts here.

    Cheers.
    meh
    GORGEousCuel
  • AiorosAioros Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14850Posts: 256
    edited November 2013
    nadyli wrote: »
    I'm sorry about the lack of feedback in my previous post, but it really is pretty straight forward. Now, I'm not saying that he was hacking or will, but currently there is no real anti-cheat system built that can provide us enough evidence of future or past hacking.
    Mendasp wrote: »
    He offered to stream all games from his POV as proof that he's not cheating.

    So there is a way to prove it, no need for demos, straight feed from his POV.

    @nadyli is there a better anti-cheat system at the moment then steaming, to show that he is not cheating?
    he could also add a webcam behind him to show his monitor and PC and use POV stream.
    And a REF could check is PC with teamviewer for cheats, the webcam would prove that it is his PC and not that of someone else


    He made something srsly retarded, but try at least to prove that he is not cheating. But he is not allowed to do so. Not even in a LIVE LAN event?

    why not allow him to be at least in a LIVE event, if he gets the chance to go there?

    Post edited by Aioros on
  • VirsoulVirsoul Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Posts: 115 Fully active user
    edited November 2013
    fanatic wrote: »
    Consider someone who stops a thief, takes the stolen goods from the thief, and goes back to the store to return it, only to be arrested for stealing because he was carrying stolen goods. It is obvious to anyone that this is a perversion of justice; abusing rules to punish desireable actions.

    It's more like the thief got caught stealing and told the store owner that they only did it to show how someone else might be stealing. Then having the thief's family tell the police what a good guy he is.

    Do I personally think he cheated in any matches? Not at all. However, when taking a vigilante approach you should make others aware of your actions, especially admins in the league and UWE. You take great risk upon yourself otherwise.
    TheriusBlainnIndustryMonodominant
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    Aaaw, it was offered to have him stream all his WC games from his POV, and it was turned down? That's disappointing. I loved watching his streams, and listening to the voice comms. :(

    In any case, if it's about bad publicity, you could spin this entire thing the way you want to. Be it promoting a zero-tolerance policy against anyone who's ever caught using hacks, or promoting a community that shows understanding, allowing a well known player to clear his name in a community funded tournament the best way possible. I'd go for the latter, but that's just me I guess.
    JektBlainnRisingSun
  • WasabiOneWasabiOne Co-Lead NS2 CDT Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104623Posts: 758 Advanced user
    We at the NS2WC appreciate all of your concerns. Unfortunately this is not the place for this discussion. This particular case is currently an internal issue being discussed between the team and NS2WC admins.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,727
    edited November 2013
    Bellicose wrote: »
    For some reason, I don't think there would be such an uproar if this was a Div 2 or 3 player - which is sad.

    Personally, if I were Eiss and this happened to me - I would take it on the chin like a man. Not run to Fana and use his 'celebrity' to try to save me and fight my fight. I would realize I did something incredibly stupid and deal with the consequences.
    I would have reacted in the same manner regardless of who this happened to, be it some unknown from division 4 or one of my own teammates from Archaea. I have not ever, and will not ever, allow injustice to go by without speaking up. Everyone who knows me knows this. That you, and some other posters in this thread, are coldly accepting the unjust treatment of a fellow player is frankly very disturbing.

    As for your other slanderous accusation, Eissfeldt has not spoken a word to me. I know about the incident because I saw the picture that was posted on ensl and made my own investigations into the matter.

    You should be ashamed of making these accusations when you know nothing of me, nor of Eissfeldt. You need to go take a long look in the mirror and see if this is really the kind of person you want to be. It shouldn't be.
    BestProfileNamehalfofaheavenKattcattisWob
  • BellicoseBellicose Members Join Date: 2013-04-11 Member: 184748Posts: 87
    Fana - this is a black and white, simple issue - which you somehow cannot fathom because you are emotionally invested.

    1) Player loads cheat software on this PC
    2) Player gets caught, receives VAC ban
    3) Player then cooks up a weak story of 'trying to catch other cheaters' (similar to finding a crack pipe in someone's car when they are pulled over and them exclaiming "That ain't mine!")
    4) Player receives consequences for his actions
    5) Player learns life lesson.

    Done.

    Oh and:
    fanatic wrote: »
    I would have reacted in the same manner regardless of who this happened to

    I don't think you would. But that's just my opinion - which you will obviously disagree with; and that's okay.
    tuxatorsoccerguy243
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, SpainMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 4,177 Advanced user
    Bellicose wrote: »
    Fana - this is a black and white, simple issue - which you somehow cannot fathom because you are emotionally invested.

    1) Player loads cheat software on this PC
    2) Player gets caught, receives VAC ban
    3) Player then cooks up a weak story of 'trying to catch other cheaters' (similar to finding a crack pipe in someone's car when they are pulled over and them exclaiming "That ain't mine!")
    4) Player receives consequences for his actions
    5) Player learns life lesson.

    Done.

    Oh and:
    fanatic wrote: »
    I would have reacted in the same manner regardless of who this happened to

    I don't think you would. But that's just my opinion - which you will obviously disagree with; and that's okay.

    He has streamed from his POV plenty of times in the past, and he offered to the same for the officials (with the performance penalty that this involves). Why would you even attempt to say that he's cheating when you can clearly check he's not in his twitch account?
    CLARK_KENTfrantix
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,727
  • BellicoseBellicose Members Join Date: 2013-04-11 Member: 184748Posts: 87
    edited November 2013
    Mendasp, whether he cheated or not - this is about consequences about a poor decision he made. The VAC-ban is real; which no one can deny. He may be a victim of circumstance - but that's what he has to deal with. You can't blame the devs for having zero-tolerance on this.

    This may all seem 'unfair', but why did he get himself into this situation in the first place? Why load it? Why not think about VAC-bans? Why not think about the repercussions if it's caught on your computer - even if you're not using it?

    Where are the answers to these questions?
    Regnarebtuxator
  • BellicoseBellicose Members Join Date: 2013-04-11 Member: 184748Posts: 87
    fanatic wrote: »
    This guy is a troll. Ignore.

    Oh I'm sorry, Fana. Did I do the blasphemous thing and disagree with you? Nice to know this is how you deal with people who 'don't see your way' in life. Nice.

    I think others can agree that I bring up some valid points. A troll would not.
    tuxator
  • AiorosAioros Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14850Posts: 256
    edited November 2013
    Bellicose wrote: »
    Where are the answers to these questions?

    Why are you so emotionally invested in enforcing the zero tolerance policy and not giving anyone a chance to redeem themselves? Communities don't benefit from witchhunts and mob mentalities.

    The ideas we had with pov stream, webcam and even teamviewer is a harsh punishment because everything he does is shown live.
    His internet is slowed down as well as lossing a big amount of FPS ingame. every competitiv player knows what a big impact a stream has on your FPS.

    The only think we want for eisfeldt is the possibility to to clear his name for the NS2 community, so he can stay and play NS2.
    In every other game you would just creat a new account and start over, but he was straight forward with the admins about his mistake.
    like @IeptBarakat said we benefit more from being honest and give him a punishment with a chance of coming back, then banning him forever.

    Doing something like this needs a punishment and everyone in this forum will agree on it, but zero tolerance is no solution if someone trys to prove to be innocent
  • kalakujakalakuja Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Posts: 380
    TrC wrote: »
    Out of curiosity are we going to see ingame screenshots kind of detection before the actually tournament?
    Script that presses F12 every 1-2 minute on random interval that takes ingame pictures with the steam overlay. Doesn't affect performance nor takes up huge space. Upload pictures after match for check. Fast and ugly solution until something is done with the 30kdollaro$ to ensure a professional enviroment?

  • BellicoseBellicose Members Join Date: 2013-04-11 Member: 184748Posts: 87
    edited November 2013
    Aioros wrote: »
    In every other game you would just creat a new account and start over, but he was straight forward with the admins about his mistake.

    Only after he got caught...

    Anyways -

    Well, I have to say that there are definitely different views on this issue - and I can respect them even if I don't necessarily agree (yes, even you Fana). However, I support the decision of the admins here. Kudos to you guys for not cracking under the pressure and standing by your decision. It just keeps the integrity of this whole thing solid, in my opinion, and sends a message to people to not do stupid things like get your account VAC-banned and that it's serious.

    And as Locklear said, Good luck to all the teams! I will exit this debate now.


    tuxator
  • AiorosAioros Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14850Posts: 256
    kalakuja wrote: »
    TrC wrote: »
    Out of curiosity are we going to see ingame screenshots kind of detection before the actually tournament?
    Script that presses F12 every 1-2 minute on random interval that takes ingame pictures with the steam overlay. Doesn't affect performance nor takes up huge space. Upload pictures after match for check. Fast and ugly solution until something is done with the 30kdollaro$ to ensure a professional enviroment?

    We asked for that 1 year ago. You would need a ns2 screenshot system for that. Because ns2 can not access the steam screenshot system to take random screens.
    At least i was told so.
    Bellicose wrote: »
    sends a message to people to not do stupid things like get your account VAC-banned and that it's serious.

    No one said its nothing serious, but the solution shouldnt be zero tolerance. we could argue a lot about it.
    e.g. the americans got much higher rate of ppl doing crimes then any other EU country, particularly the rate of repeat offenders.
    Europeans try to get ppl back into the community instead of marking them as outsiders forever.
    but thats way off topic.

    tuxator
This discussion has been closed.