32-Bit Crashes - What's going on!? - Natural Selection 2

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  • darkhunt333darkhunt333 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165414Posts: 75 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    *snip* If you cannot be civil to other members of this forum, do not post -Ironhorse
    Post edited by IronHorse on
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    ^ signature images must not exceed 400x75 and 40Kb in size, scale down that monster sig a bit if you please -Kouji San
                                   Move forward with 64 bit already!                                                    Not. One. Step. Back!
  • majorpainmajorpain Members Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187515Posts: 64
    edited September 2013
    Guys, no body is disputing that 32 bit is now a minority, but 23 people who use 32 bit at present in every hundred is still a significant minority, no?
    Not got a problem with games that dont support XP anymore either, i think there are only about 10 anyway, though this will become more common place, which is also cool.
    With the new consoles coming out soon we will see less games now coded for DX9 i imagine also, which is cool with me too.
    NS2 was released with system requirements that were a little misleading to say the least, even people above recommended still struggle to play the game without lag ect, but it is now the case NS2 will not work without constant crashes on 32 bit systems because the engine now demands more resources due to memory leaks, cmon, this is not acceptable and we have a right to feel p*ssed while we wait for UWE to sort it out.
    Post edited by majorpain on
  • B3rTB3rT Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183058Posts: 128
    edited September 2013
    B3rT wrote: »

    You know, that "1 in 5" equals to "20%"? If I add up the percents in your screenshot I get 22.65% of 32bit Windows (assuming "Windows 7" is 32bit, because there is a "Windows 7 64 bit" but no "Windows 7 32 bit", same for Windows 8)
    ...

    Of course 64bit systems are a majority. Is there any point to discuss this?

    But you insulted chikoto and in the next sentence you write exactly the same as he does. If 75% uses 64bit windows then there are approximately 20% who don't use 64 bit (plus the linux and mac users, who aren't considered here.)

    I don't get It why there are so many Windows 7 32 bit users, either. Most of them should have a 64bit CPU, because I don't think that an 10 year old CPU can run NS2 at all.

    But they are there. And you can't ignore 22% of the playerbase!

    BTW there is nothing against two versions, so both systems are happy. (not that I had any problems with NS2 crashing or something since release of the game on my CPU...)
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    cablegunmaster
  • darkhunt333darkhunt333 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165414Posts: 75 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    B3rT wrote: »

    But they are there. And you can't ignore 22% of the playerbase!

    BTW there is nothing against two versions, so both systems are happy. (not that I had any problems with NS2 crashing or something since release of the game on my CPU...)

    Assuming 22% have 32 bit. If iron horse could get a survey on what people are running ns2 with, you're going to see 98% 64 bit. I'll put money down. Let 32 have their derpy crashing and we get our game back. I care enough to put my money where my mouth is and made a donation to see the game go the right direction. I even bought copies for all of my friends. But as it is, it's borderline unplayable.
    http://i.imgur.com/OqptiXX.png
    ^ signature images must not exceed 400x75 and 40Kb in size, scale down that monster sig a bit if you please -Kouji San
                                   Move forward with 64 bit already!                                                    Not. One. Step. Back!
  • majorpainmajorpain Members Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187515Posts: 64
    @darkhunt333
    The game is not borderline unplayable and crashing because it supports 32 bit systems. The reasons are due to the game engine having memory leaks and bugs, poor optimization and netcode. When these things are addressed your game wont be borderline unplayable.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    SeeVee wrote: »
    I have seen games in the past (like the Unreal Engine Games) have a setting in the options to make all other players "one particular character model"... this was a setting introduced to cut down on the memory usage of lower end pc's and making the game less memory intensive. It also helped people with lower end GPU's as well because it didn't have to render so many different varying player character models.

    Maybe UWE could add in an option to force default models, and when ticked only the ones that come with the game will be seen by that client.
    I actually recommended this previously. :)
    Quake 3 was what i remembered doing this.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    cablegunmaster
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    I can understand the deadline behind Reinforced, with PAX. What was the reason for the deadline of exclusive content patch? That one that's causing crashes, and stuff, you know?
    No, the crashes started occurring from the added content of Reinforced.. (female models) not just with the special assault skin. I personally saw a memory allocation error once on one of the PAX machines over the weekend.
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    It's not like those crashing are customers that paid for a released game or anything! They paid for a beta? For crashes that aren't their fault?
    What?.. where do you get all this from? Who said the crashes are their faults?? Who said they aren't customers too?
    Its pure numbers, friend. If UWE can determine the amount of crashes they receive (And they can) against the amount of players playing (and they can) its up to them to determine the necessity of a reversion.
    Not much can be done besides going forward and fixing the problem, past that. *shrug*
    Thus is the nature of software updates.. even a fix can cause a new bug :-/
    I suggest you play something else in the meantime while they fix it, if it is that upsetting or frequent of a crash for you.
    I'm sure they appreciate the understanding and patience from users like you.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    cablegunmaster
  • hub3rtu2hub3rtu2 Members, Reinforced - Diamond Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165478Posts: 66 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    My point of all of this was, that the game is released, it's not a beta anymore. There should be beta builds like before that would catch those very severe bugs like crashing.

    It's not even my problem, I have a 64bit system, crashes are rare, well, besides horrid random microstuttering since Reinforced. But I've been asking people around free weekend and after it, I would very often hear how "game runs like shit", people bewildered at how after nearly a year after release, game feels like an unfinished beta. I can only imagine someone buying NS2 during a "global beta" build. I guess they should just play a different game. New player retention at its finest, those aren't as understanding and patient as there are other games to learn and play instead.
    It's just sad seeing people call one of my favorite games "dead on arrival" or even "shitty unfinished cashgrab" just because devs rush their updates. I couldn't care less otherwise, but it's either playing with greenies that will eventually have enough of this and jump ship, or pre-release veterans that already know what they are into. I want players between those, players that don't read about every update, players that can just jump and play without problems and still understand what's going on through the game, not changelogs (interactive tutorial was the best thing from Reinforced). Not just sale spikes on steam charts.

    And I want patches that don't break the game.
    MowAk.gif
    You can't do stuff like that UWE, innocent people are dying crashing.
    Steam

    EU, Mr. Plinkett
    cablegunmaster
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Obviously no one wants patches that break the game.
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    My point of all of this was, that the game is released, it's not a beta anymore. There should be beta builds like before that would catch those very severe bugs like crashing..
    We needed to get this out to a wider testing audience, in order to get a better sense of all the issues that the new rendering changes are causing, so that we could fix them up before the final patch release. It is certainly not an ideal way of doing things, but we had hoped that our community would be understanding of this and help us to track down issues and fix them up, to get this huge Reinforced update in good shape for later this week.

    Using the Beta release on steam has been tried in the past, and just does not bring in enough people playing on the beta version, to give us adequate testing, so we just had to go with a full release here.
    source.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    ellnic
  • ZaliZali Members Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185668Posts: 43
    edited September 2013
    We needed to get this out to a wider testing audience, in order to get a better sense of all the issues that the new rendering changes are causing, so that we could fix them up before the final patch release. It is certainly not an ideal way of doing things, but we had hoped that our community would be understanding of this and help us to track down issues and fix them up, to get this huge Reinforced update in good shape for later this week.

    Using the Beta release on steam has been tried in the past, and just does not bring in enough people playing on the beta version, to give us adequate testing, so we just had to go with a full release here.

    The point is that this shouldn't be the paying customers problem. All this blather about the reasons behind it are just excuses for poor planning and worse execution. It's definitely not, nor should it be, "the nature of software updates".

    Post edited by Zali on
    current1y
  • HusarHusar Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169523Posts: 137 Advanced user
    @Zali
    The point is that you, I and the rest of the community WISH there weren't any problems problems with any update, but the fact IS that new bugs introduced by a new build ARE "the nature of updates"! And because you say otherwise it doesn't make it true.
    There are thousands of sold copies of NS2 that means thousands of different PC configurations with different software that all can react differently to an update of which you can test just a small part. Cory is saying that there are not enough beta testers to find the damn quirks. I do understand it as that there were some beta testers, but they unfortunately had not problems because their system configurations didn't meet the quirks but which do appear on systems outside of the beta test. So tell me, how can you plan and execute things better if you don't even knew they where there?

    I tell you:
    • First you have to experience the problem. Therefor are beta testers who do not participate in a number which is high enough in the NS2 beta builds. So unfortunately the quirks are found in the main build by "paying customers".
    • Than you have to find out where the problem is coming from, if it isn't reproducible it is even hard and nearly impossible to find due to different system configurations like I myself had to find out. I used a software called "Virtu MVP" which caused the problems in the following link. I turned it of and suddenly no problems. http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127701/graphical-bug-build-238-shadow-artefacts-with-pictures#latest
    • And last but oh boy not least is to fix the problem which isn't done within a flip!
    Intel Core i7-3770K not (yet?) over clocked
    AMD HD7870 OC version
    Corsair 16GB DDR3 RAM 1600MHz
  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Posts: 616 Fully active user
    So.... UWE, how about an update for those of us who cannot play the game right now please. Thank you.


    [Cult]MartyMcFly - Yo!Clan Regular - Player of Real-Lifeâ„¢
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")
    majorpain
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    @Husar
    So tell me, how can you plan and execute things better if you don't even knew they where there?

    first, the testing team knew that there were problems (They stated that multiple times on this forum) but the devs decided to release their update anyway. Second, if there are such bugs that are not detected, you should increase the amount of testers and trying to get a higher diversity when it comes to the hardware pool.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    MuckyMcFly wrote: »
    Been unable to play since the "update" the game simply wont work without a fatal crash. This is effecting both me and my sons accounts, how close are you guys to a fix and what compensation will we receive?

    Have you deactivated all mods? Did you send the crash report to UWE?
  • HusarHusar Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169523Posts: 137 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    tuxator wrote: »
    @Husar
    first, the testing team knew that there were problems (They stated that multiple times on this forum) but the devs decided to release their update anyway.
    Ok, I give you that. Maybe UWE felt the pressure to release because of the Reinforcement Program?
    Second, if there are such bugs that are not detected, you should increase the amount of testers and trying to get a higher diversity when it comes to the hardware pool.
    Well, that was exactly the problem, there weren't enough testers!

    Intel Core i7-3770K not (yet?) over clocked
    AMD HD7870 OC version
    Corsair 16GB DDR3 RAM 1600MHz
  • ZaliZali Members Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185668Posts: 43
    edited September 2013
    Husar wrote: »
    Well, that was exactly the problem, there weren't enough testers!

    There are solutions for that which don't involve screwing your paying customers. Redirect some money from breaking stuff that works or the failed esports attempt to paid QA testers for example.

    The problem is that UWE doesn't want to/can't seem to see the difference between paying customers and beta testers (probably because the beta was pay to enter).
    NS2 has been released. It's way past time to start treating it like that. Few people who bought NS2 in that state are going to care about UWEs problems.
  • majorpainmajorpain Members Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187515Posts: 64
    Hopefully you Aussie chaps are getting into the office soon-ish and can give us an update when this broken game is going to work?
  • tuxatortuxator Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69958Posts: 145 Fully active user
    Husar wrote: »
    tuxator wrote: »
    @Husar
    first, the testing team knew that there were problems (They stated that multiple times on this forum) but the devs decided to release their update anyway.
    Ok, I give you that. Maybe UWE felt the pressure to release because of the Reinforcement Program?

    I think so.

    About the test team thing: The weird thing is, I tried to get into it by filling out their application but I did get nothing back, neither a 'yes' nor a 'no'.

    ellnic
  • destroyerjjbgdestroyerjjbg Members Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183467Posts: 21
    edited September 2013
    i will burn u all uwe . GRRR. 2 weeks i cant play ns2.
    Others games dont have these memory limitations dont blame 32bits and our pcs and till i know there is a memory swap options with hd in windows perfectly usable for any game, is called pagefile.sys for more information if u dont know. Maybe a betatest of the patch before u drop it ?
    stfu the clevers with 64 bits. I have 32 and 64 bits windows and it crashes the same. Patch 255 is shit optimization just all.
    grrrrrrrrrrrr fixxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    ths
    MuckyMcFly
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 PersonSuper Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Posts: 3,013 admin
    tuxator wrote: »
    I think so.

    About the test team thing: The weird thing is, I tried to get into it by filling out their application but I did get nothing back, neither a 'yes' nor a 'no'.

    That's because the Playtest team is community run, and we're all very busy trying to get 256 out the door to reply to every application we receive. We take on PTs in waves, the last wave we took on right before Reinforced. We'll take on another wave soon. Then people will start to be contacted.

    If NS2 fails, follow my Nuke From Orbit Guide.

    NS2 Discord: https://discord.gg/0TKQwZWu7JEPeAgW

    Subnautica Discord: https://discord.gg/subnautica

  • darkhunt333darkhunt333 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165414Posts: 75 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    Can't wait for the temporary useless band-aid.

    majorpain wrote: »
    @darkhunt333
    The game is not borderline unplayable and crashing because it supports 32 bit systems. The reasons are due to the game engine having memory leaks and bugs, poor optimization and netcode. When these things are addressed your game wont be borderline unplayable.

    If it was 64bit, it wouldn't crash for a very long time because there's no memory limit. Reducing crashes and performance problems all around by a large margin. I like how you find 2 words and avoid the problem all together. You're missing the point, anything but 64 bit is a band-aid that will come off if it gets a little damp.

    i will burn u all uwe . GRRR. 2 weeks i cant play ns2.
    stfu the clevers with 64 bits. I have 32 and 64 bits windows and it crashes the same.
    grrrrrrrrrrrr fixxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    ths

    What did I just read lol. Your IQ is clearly too high to create an acceptable sentence structure. THE GAME IS 32BIT. IT DOESN"T MATTER THAT OS YOU HAVE. Learn about google and use it ffs.

    *snip* If you cannot be civil to other members of this forum, do not post -Ironhorse

    Not letting people defend them selves is the worst thing you can do. I could rip on this so hard lol.
    http://i.imgur.com/OqptiXX.png
    ^ signature images must not exceed 400x75 and 40Kb in size, scale down that monster sig a bit if you please -Kouji San
                                   Move forward with 64 bit already!                                                    Not. One. Step. Back!
  • ZaliZali Members Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185668Posts: 43
    edited September 2013
    We figure that the majority of our community understands this, and is along for the ride because of who we are, the games we make, and how we make them. We may lose a few along the way who are not willing to ride out some of the bumps along the road while we work to improve our process, but we are not going to just close our doors to the public and sit on every patch for months testing them to insure they are perfect. It is not who we are and not who we want to be.

    The problem of course being that when you have a released game on Steam, the vast majority of people who buy it aren't going to know or care about what UWE is. You are figuring wrong. Beyond getting a playable game for their money, the majority just don't care. They aren't here extolling the virtues of UWEs style of development, the ones that decide to take some action are on the Steam forums telling everyone what a piece of shit the engine is. This is why there is a huge player retention issue. How can you possibly suggest that the majority understand when the majority don't even bother to stick around. Hell, they probably didn't even visit the website at all. The people who understand are the minority.

    Those people who you say are "not willing to ride out some of the bumps along the road" (sounds like you consider them an acceptable loss, you have their money anyway, right?) bought your game and expected it to work. Delivering on that implied promise should be the first priority.
    Bacilluscurrent1y
  • current1ycurrent1y Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Posts: 677 Advanced user
    edited September 2013
    ^ well put apart from the last sentence. Their top priority is to keep the company afloat/make money. How they do that is up to them but unfortunately at the moment I think that is done by growing the playerbase. To do that they need content patches like reinforced to bring back old players and get new ones to buy the game. It's just a shame there wasn't proper time to get real testing on it done since they had too early of a release date set. I do agree with what you are saying though. I feel 250 was pushed too early along with the recent patches including reinforced which caused bugs in addition to new balance issues.

    Personally speaking I would like to see the main focus put on fixing existing balance and performance related issues and less on new content. But that's easy for me to say since I do not pay the bills...just being honest though
  • ViVnetViVnet Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2004-05-27 Member: 28947Posts: 35 Fully active user
    Is there actually a 64-bit executable somewhere?

    You guys realize that a 32-bit process is still limited to 4GB of address space on a 64-bit operating system right? So unless there's a 64-bit executable....
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    ViVnet wrote: »
    Is there actually a 64-bit executable somewhere?

    You guys realize that a 32-bit process is still limited to 4GB of address space on a 64-bit operating system right? So unless there's a 64-bit executable....

    Not true, first there is no 64bit process, second I've seen the game hit 4.5gb memory on a leak, third I'm pretty sure there's some function (or something you hook from windows) that lets you break the 4gb line.
    76561197996992409.png
  • ViVnetViVnet Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2004-05-27 Member: 28947Posts: 35 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    The process itself may only receive 4GB of address space. There's no way around that.

    There are methods to expose more memory to a 32-bit system, but the process itself cannot exceed this amount.

    If you went over 4GB, it's probably another process running along with the game. Awesomium is a definite possibility here.

    The system simply cannot allocate more than 4GB to a 32-bit process, it's a basic mathematic principle and one of the primary reasons for the development of 64-bit systems.
  • MaxunitMaxunit Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-02-01 Member: 39414Posts: 224 Fully active user
    edited September 2013
    I still do not understand, why 32-bit is so widespread in 2013. A lot of people run around with Dual or Quad Core CPUs, at least 4 GB of memory, or even more. *hint*8GB in my rig*hint*

    If I look back, then only a handful of games either have both x86 and x64 binaries or only x64.

    Sure, 64bit is more like "Oh my goodness, I can allocate more than 4 GB", but think about that. Games get more and more...graphical. Such data needs more memory to be placed in.

    If I look back at Hellgate: London for example...it ships with x86 and x64 binaries (depends on what version you install). DX10 was included, too.

    My Fallout 3/New Vegas installations were always modded to hell, so that I needed at least 4 GB of memory just for the game. Same applies to Skyrim.

    32Bit is, in my opinion, restricting development for both Games and Applications, because you are limited to 4 GB of Memory instead of 512 GB.

    Yes, 512 GB sounds ridiculous, but still...that's the amount of memory, which Windows 8 Ultimate can allocate. Windows 7 Ultimate can allocate up to 192 GB.

    I am not familiar with the entire technical mumbojumbo now and do not know, if a 64bit EXE for Natural Selection 2 would be a curse or would do something good...but I hope you know what I mean.
    I like to be in the darkness and to be unseen...
    DarkLaunch357
  • amoralamoral Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,331 Advanced user
    current1y wrote: »
    ^ well put apart from the last sentence. Their top priority is to keep the company afloat/make money. How they do that is up to them but unfortunately at the moment I think that is done by growing the playerbase. To do that they need content patches like reinforced to bring back old players and get new ones to buy the game. It's just a shame there wasn't proper time to get real testing on it done since they had too early of a release date set. I do agree with what you are saying though. I feel 250 was pushed too early along with the recent patches including reinforced which caused bugs in addition to new balance issues.

    Personally speaking I would like to see the main focus put on fixing existing balance and performance related issues and less on new content. But that's easy for me to say since I do not pay the bills...just being honest though

    and when you mention something like that, all you get is a tersely worded response about resource allocation, and how content and performance gedone in parallel, and how they can do both at the same time without sacrificing quality.

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