32-Bit Crashes - What's going on!? - Natural Selection 2

SystemSystem Join Date: 2013-01-29 Member: 182599Members, Super Administrators, Reinforced - Diamond
edited September 2013 in NS2 General Discussion

image32-Bit Crashes - What's going on!? - Natural Selection 2

Since Reinforced was released, we have noticed an increase in crash reports related to NS2 running of memory. These crashes are caused by NS2 being unable to allocate sufficient memory to store information about all the stuff it is doing – For example, those shiny new Elite Assault skins. When allocation fails, NS2 raises the white flag, you get an error message, and you get pissed off. Of the maximum 4GB of addressable memory space on a 32-bit system (2 ^ 32 = 4,294,967,296 bytes = 4GB), Windows reserves 2GB. This leaves any application (such as NS2) with a maximum of 2GB to play with. NS2 doesn’t actually need 2GB of memory to run, but it does need to allocate …

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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Bumpity for comment thread

    Also kids - Don't brick your PCs! Be careful following these instructions... And remember, its only 32-bit systems that are affected. If you are having a crash on a 64-bit system, it is a different problem!
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    To follow updates on the matter please visit our technical support thread.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Argh this thread isn't for my 64-bit browser!

    Jk, hope the issue is fixed soon!
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited September 2013
    I recommend people with a 32 bit operating system and >4GB of ram installed (6gb or 8gb for instance) give Eboostr a try. I used it for a few years to unlock my ram on a 32 bit OS (I have 6 gb). Don't recall having any issues with it, worth a try if you're uncomfortable with editing the registry.
  • clankill3rclankill3r Join Date: 2007-09-03 Member: 62145Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    Bumping up system requirements just to show off some skins sooner. Can't say I'm surprised.

    It's more then skins. Everything new added takes up memory.
    Also 32bit is kind of outdated (remember nintendo 64...). I think a lot of those people might even be able to run on 64bit windows.
    Also i'm not sure but since a lot of code runs on lua which is not as low level as c++ the game requires more memmory i guess.

    Anyway i do wonder what this mean for future support for 32 bit operating systems. It's a sign of pushing limits. And sure it's possible to bring memory down but this doesnt always have to be an improvement.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    No one should still be using 32bit these days if you're on windows 7+ (note the + is for any future OS, not win8 because you shouldn't be using win8 anyway).
  • victortvictort Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188078Members, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or, just switch to the linux client and.. oh wait.. same problem...

    xoxo for the Linux version tho.. :D
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    edited September 2013
    uhm so there's some logic missing in this.

    You claim it's a 32-bit problem, yet you reference that it is really having only a 4Gb of RAM problem?

    So shouldn't people with 64-bit and only running 4Gb of RAM also have this problem?


    edit: I think I found the answer to my own question. From what I gather, on a 64bit OS, the 3Gb switch is enabled by default.


    However, now I have another question. Is NS2 a 64-bit application? If it is a 32-bit application then NS2 has to specifically call for more memory allocation even if the user did the 3Gb switch on their computer.


    Also, it is certainly possible for you, UWE devs, to break up that memory allocation into smaller chunks. You can even, if needed, put some of those chunks into physical memory ... you know.. instead of having the game crash. Sure it may cause some performance loss, but it is better than having people crash.
  • hub3rtu2hub3rtu2 Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165478Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    clankill3r wrote: »
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    Bumping up system requirements just to show off some skins sooner. Can't say I'm surprised.

    It's more then skins. Everything new added takes up memory.
    Also 32bit is kind of outdated (remember nintendo 64...). I think a lot of those people might even be able to run on 64bit windows.
    Also i'm not sure but since a lot of code runs on lua which is not as low level as c++ the game requires more memmory i guess.

    Anyway i do wonder what this mean for future support for 32 bit operating systems. It's a sign of pushing limits. And sure it's possible to bring memory down but this doesnt always have to be an improvement.

    I understand 32bit Win7 is "kind of outdated" and all, but I'd rather have them rolling back the content and optimizing it first, than forcing it, causing crashes, and then saying "deal with it". They don't have to restrict themselves with deadlines and things like that since they're indie, but they do. Can't grasp why. No one would get mad at them for rollback until it get fixed, instead people are getting crashes, unable to play the game properly. Because of what, skins? (I couldn't find thread about this problem older than the last patch)

    Pushing limits? You can't just change the system requirements after the game is released. People paid money for the game playable on those set up on release and that's how it should remain, unless they provide a refund.
  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    So I type
    Load"*",8,1
    but it does nothing!
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    This is like the 30th time stuff got too big and my ns2 begins to crash. I would love to see some precautions been taken after so many unplayable builds. (Yes I know, ns2 is running fine on your end, but after playing ~130 builds, I can say ns2 and my PC are on constant fighting for "do I crash every 4mins in this build or should I let him play. This ain't funny anymore, especially after release).

    As always I am happy that you work on a fix, but there is this bitter taste every time this happens that stuff like this should be known by now. And telling me that you are not programming for a console and that stuff like this happens won't solve my problems ;)
  • UzverUzver Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172632Members, Reinforced - Silver
    edited September 2013
    Res wrote: »
    However, now I have another question. Is NS2 a 64-bit application?
    No, it's a not 64-bit application. So NS2 will able to allocate 4 GB in 64 bit systems.
    Res wrote: »
    So shouldn't people with 64-bit and only running 4Gb of RAM also have this problem?
    I tested NS2 on 32bit Win7 with modified kernel that uses a full advantages of PAE (in short you will able to use more than 4 GB of physical memory in 32 bit systems, but you can't allocate more than 4 GB per application) and anyway NS2 often crashes in 32 bit edition than in 64 bit Win7.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    and then saying "deal with it".
    They said that?? Where? Cause all i can find is "Crashing on a 32bit OS? We're working on a solution. In the mean-time, here's a workaround"
    hub3rtu2 wrote: »
    They don't have to restrict themselves with deadlines and things like that since they're indie, but they do. Can't grasp why. No one would get mad at them for rollback until it get fixed,
    A) They do if they want to have a PAX booth, Steam Sale, and Free Weekends ??
    B) And if they want to make money with their product?
    C) I'm pretty sure you'd have the masses raging at UWE if they had you pay > promise to give you content > gave you the content > took it back.

    Remember not everyone is crashing.. and those users wouldn't be so understanding. :-/


  • OuchOfDeathOuchOfDeath Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182825Members
    Of course the masses would be raging at UWE if they paid for something and it was taken away. That's the problem. However what you're also not considering is those who are having game crashes also had something they paid for taken away, and frankly they've had a lot more taken away. UWE has put themselves in a position where they're pissing off a certain amount of people who paid for their product no matter what they do here. The mistake is to have put themselves in this position in the first place. It shows a complete lack of oversight, particularly since this specific bug has showed up before at launch. This bug is a repeat of close to a year ago where I believe the Deluxe model was causing the exact same issue for 32-bit operating systems.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @ouchofdeath I can agree with that. But I don't think reversion is the best course here.. since there's no repairing the damage already done. I think fixing the problems ASAP will make everyone happy.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    That's...actually a good idea. More accurate to say when ticked only the default (male green armor and unskinned skulk) models are loaded into memory.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    Res wrote: »
    So shouldn't people with 64-bit and only running 4Gb of RAM also have this problem?
    Game crashes for me too, but only with that allocation error due to the memory leak when it gets close to 4GB in usage. But as hugh said in OP it might be a different issue.


  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    I thought this would be about the 50% chance crash to desktops whenever the map changes. Hrngh.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    Jekt wrote: »
    I thought this would be about the 50% chance crash to desktops whenever the map changes. Hrngh.
    We need more minidumps for that one, too.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm getting regular crashes on a 64-bit system with 8Gb quality ram. So what's that about? :(
  • WarmongerWarmonger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13126Members, Constellation
    edited September 2013
    RockyMarc wrote: »
    So I type
    Load"*",8,1
    but it does nothing!

    You forgot to type
    SYS32768
    after it loaded, silly! :-)
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    edited September 2013
    Uzver wrote: »
    Res wrote: »
    However, now I have another question. Is NS2 a 64-bit application?
    No, it's a not 64-bit application. So NS2 will able to allocate 4 GB in 64 bit systems.
    Res wrote: »
    So shouldn't people with 64-bit and only running 4Gb of RAM also have this problem?
    I tested NS2 on 32bit Win7 with modified kernel that uses a full advantages of PAE (in short you will able to use more than 4 GB of physical memory in 32 bit systems, but you can't allocate more than 4 GB per application) and anyway NS2 often crashes in 32 bit edition than in 64 bit Win7.



    If this is true (that NS2 is 32-bit application and not 64-bit), I hope the devs are aware that they need to have a /LARGEADDRESSAWARE flag so that NS2 can receive more than 2Gb... Otherwise, even if a user does the 3Gb switch, it won't mean squat.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    NS2 can definitely use more than 2gb, because I've seen it using up to 4.5gb in task manager before.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2005-05-15 Member: 51659
    They're talking about x86 OS Ghosthree3. :)
  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    she’s dead, Jim

    Fascinating!
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Jaqarll wrote: »
    They're talking about x86 OS Ghosthree3. :)

    I wasn't talking about OP, I was talking about @Res 's post, about the app being 32bit, and it's still 32bit on 64bit windows :):):)
  • enmokuenmoku Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168645Members
  • HEllrunner2kHEllrunner2k Join Date: 2013-07-05 Member: 185945Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    There is a solution to all this! GET A 64 BIT SYSTEM! ^^ It's cheap on ebay these days... bought a Professionel Win 7 for 30 EUR. It's better for your life anyway. You can enjoy more disk space, the best games ever made without glitches and blue ray movies from your hard drive. GO!
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