Might as well close this thread, because this is all about 252-AV.
AV in build253 has been changed.
don't see why we can't talk.about that too. I don't like it, but I don't despise it with hatred of a thousand burning suns either. I can learn to tolerate it I guess. until they make regular vision useful when biting, I will use it. this thread is a good record of the vitriol accrued by a 24 hour release of a misguided prioritization of design over gameplay. let it stand to remind the designers that they should actually take their players into consideration before making fundamental changes to the game.
my question. did anyone actually like 252 vision overall? im not asking if you like the intent, but the actual implementation.
i feel i'm safe in saying that the 252 vision changes received almost universal condemnation from players. I'd like a poll done.
Personally, I was indifferent to the vision changes in 252. It was nice being able to actually see things other than puke green and orange all the time while still having the same general combat effectiveness. There's actually some degree of choice to be made now if I want to have alien vision on or off instead of set it and forget it because old alien vision was flat out better in virtually every circumstance.
The real issue I feel stems more from the underutilization of dark lighting rather than either vision mode being terrible, especially considering the improvements made to alien vision in 253.
We realized that with the immensity of the rendering changes that had to be made to the game in order to support DX11, OpenGL, and Linux, and due to those changes taking much longer to implement then first anticipated, we felt it was going to be too risky to just wait until the final release when all that promotion had kicked in. We needed to get this out to a wider testing audience, in order to get a better sense of all the issues that the new rendering changes are causing, so that we could fix them up before the final patch release. It is certainly not an ideal way of doing things, but we had hoped that our community would be understanding of this and help us to track down issues and fix them up, to get this huge Reinforced update in good shape for later this week.
Oh your looking for bugs and want the communities help.... ALIEN VISION IS BUGGED... From what I'm reading at least.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@palagi oh you bitter player, you, continually assuming things about me. Of course I understand the negative reception that comes from a surprise such as that.
Worst idea ever, it's like being under acid, I don't know how they can say "okay, it sounds good", the contrast, the colors, everything is totally fucked as hell. Maybe the old one was a bit OP (btw I disagree because alien gameplay is much more faster and asks a clearer view of the game than marines) but it needed tweak, not throw away everything.
Even though 253 fixed the AV a little bit, I think it's still bad. I wonder if instead of AV blinding you with brighter colors in well lit rooms it should do the opposite. I'm thinking AV in bright rooms will turn the screen dim and darker with no highlighted targets, making navigation with it on harder to use, while still making AV favorable in darker rooms where now everything is highlighted but also not brighter(like it used to be).
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Believe it or not we actually were using a default vision that was almost identical to huze 's minimal vision mod for a time being. And it was awesome, Imo..
So yeah I agree with everyone regarding the contrast argument.
It was far worse though at one point in testing, when marines had no highlights at all and alien teammates were always brightly outlined! Lol
The new version blows, it hurts the eyes and doesn’t do what it’s supposed to. It’s only useful in completely dark rooms so about .1% of game play. It’s completely useless on bio dome since half the lights never go out.
Why was it changed when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place?
I played Aliens for 2hrs on 253, and I think I like this AV.
Together with the skulk movement fix, I'm nearly back to my old level.
The enhanced vision is still very bright in...well, in bright areas lol...but really comes to it's own in shadey places, which is on most of the map.
Now the silvery marines are easier to focus on, than during the default vision, imo.
Default vision vs a Marine, I'm not sure if it's the skulk fix, or the AV itself...guess both, as this also plays much better.
And apart from the game-impact, I really love this enhanced AV.
The old green/orange always felt to digital to me, but this new version looks much more organic, a great addition to the alien theme.
Running on DX11, dunno if this makes it all even prettier.
This "in the dark" only happens for 10 seconds and rarely when there are actually marines in the room with you... WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT NOW?!?!?!
This has been relayed ad nauseam in this thread - Alien Vision was not intended to work as an alternative vision mode for aliens to keep on at all times, which is exactly what it had turned into.
What did you, me or any other random alien player do as soon as they spawned? They turned on AV. Why? Because it was a superior viewing option. Again, that was not it's intended purpose. It was supposed to function the exact same way as the marine flashlight - useless in lighted areas and effective in the dark.
There's really no other way to explain it than just that. If that isn't a good enough explanation than I'm sorry, because that's what UWE did, and I think it was a necessary change. Pre-252 AV was used by most aliens all the time, and it's only supposed to be for dark rooms.
Easy fix - use it in the dark, turn it off in the light. Takes .0005 seconds to hit the button. Or, we can continue to fill the forums with diatribe and nonsense.
You can't fix something that isn't broken. Alien vision has worked that way for AT LEAST 2 years now. I can't remember if it was implemented when I first started playing (july 2011) but it was definitely very shortly after that. If they didn't intend for it to work that way, they would've changed it before now. This new alien vision still blows, but its better today than it was yesterday.
It's not terrible but I'm not too keen on the current implementation. The minimal vision mod is doing a similar thing minus the contrast and that's a lot more soothing on the eyes.
I was playing with a friend and the first thing he told me was that he disliked the new AV due to the contrast. This seems to be the general issue with it. My friend actually wanted the old one back as he liked the alien look it gave.
Personally I'd go for toning down the AV contrast and adding the old one back in as an option. Much like rich and minimal infestation.
I don't see why we can't have both unless there's technical hurdles. Having the old AV as a secondary option would please everyone and the old AV is far from an advantage over the current implementation. But I reckon the issue with AV and glass has not yet been resolved? That could be a problem on biodome.
I do like the fact that aliens can be played more effectively with alien vision off now. Get to actually see the map as an alien player if you want without feeling at a disadvantage.
But the new alien vision itself is like staring into a light bulb. Bright orange on blinding white even in rooms with the power off? My brain craves contrast and a more eye-pleasing palette. The base color really needs to be a dull color so people don't get headaches.
(And with everything highlighted I am having a hard time telling what has and hasn't been parasited. Do we need a new parasite effect?)
Instead of changing something many people were perfectly fine with, and destroying the experience for a lot of players, UWE could simply release a few official MODS so that players have some AV schemes to choose from. Everybody is happy.
Instead of changing something many people were perfectly fine with, and destroying the experience for a lot of players, UWE could simply release a few official MODS so that players have some AV schemes to choose from. Everybody is happy.
I'm in awe how often you seem to use the new alien vision which shows that you're using it wrong. I never heard anyone complain that the night goggles in Splinter Cell are too bright in lit rooms, because that's how they're supposed to work.
The new alien vision is not there to replace the old alien vision.
The new normal alien view replaces the usefulness of the old alien vision and the new alien vision is for dark rooms, easy as that.
I'm glad I'm not supposed to walk around with the old alien vision all the time anymore because it just made the whole experience dull, but not using it took away a great advantage.
The new normal vision is so visually cluttered that you can't keep track of marines in CQC. For a melee unit, that's a problem. Couple that with the draw damage change, and the fact that aliens are also highlighted exactly like marines, and so are structures, and add in umbra/spores/mist etc etc and the reduced performance and massive input lag, and it's an absolutely horrible mess right now.
The new normal vision is in almost every single way possible worse than the old alien vision, with the exception of draw distance (which is still too short anyway).
The old alien vision had the following benefits:
Allowed tracking in CQC for a melee unit in a fast-movement FPS game
Simplified visuals meant better contrast between units of interest
Simplified visuals allowed geometry to be assessed more easily, enabling wall-jumping without getting caught on tiny bits of sticking out sections, or sticking to walls: more clutter makes this much harder at high level
Fewer headaches from having to constantly try to discern what is marine, what is a dropped weapon, what is a friendly from infestation and textures
Increased difference between playing marine and playing alien - better asymmetry which complements the asymmetric gameplay nicely
I don't want to stop you playing with the current normal vision, but I do want an option that allows me to see enemies and track them in CQC. Reverting draw damage changes, fixing performance and input lag would be a good start, and all absolutely necessary, but they won't affect the horrendous visual cluttering that we now have.
I haven't yet played any PCWs with this, but it's going to be painful, that's for sure. And not in justified-but-painful way, either.
Personally I think AV has been a broken mechanic for quite some time now. People just use it indiscriminately, and you might as well have had the previous version as always on. It really added near to nothing to the game.
I think they should increase the intensity of the outlining the players/models they have currently, and either ditch having alien vision altogether, or make it something that you can use to 'scan sweep' the room so you can see the outlines of the map geometry. You could also have the eyes of the aliens flash orange and fade in time with it.
They have had previous versions that make use of this scanning effect.
The outline is simply not enough. When a marine is half way in your face, all that is left is an orange vertical line. And now you have 200ms to guess if the left or right side of that orange line is the marine and move the mouse accordingly.
I agree that the old AV did alienate (:D) the textures to much.
But all that is needed to be done is to make HUZEs AV mod the default view! Orange surface for the whole marine instead of a line will make a very big difference in CQC.
Personally I think AV has been a broken mechanic for quite some time now. People just use it indiscriminately, and you might as well have had the previous version as always on. It really added near to nothing to the game.
I think they should increase the intensity of the outlining the players/models they have currently, and either ditch having alien vision altogether, or make it something that you can use to 'scan sweep' the room so you can see the outlines of the map geometry. You could also have the eyes of the aliens flash orange and fade in time with it.
They have had previous versions that make use of this scanning effect.
It added plenty to the game, just read the post above yours. If anything, it's normal that added nothing and should have been removed.
Personally I think AV has been a broken mechanic for quite some time now. People just use it indiscriminately, and you might as well have had the previous version as always on. It really added near to nothing to the game.
I think they should increase the intensity of the outlining the players/models they have currently, and either ditch having alien vision altogether, or make it something that you can use to 'scan sweep' the room so you can see the outlines of the map geometry. You could also have the eyes of the aliens flash orange and fade in time with it.
They have had previous versions that make use of this scanning effect.
It added plenty to the game, just read the post above yours. If anything, it's normal that added nothing and should have been removed.
I agree in what you are saying, but the implementation has just been poor from day one. I don't disagree that the old vision was great, but I didn't like that there was basically no need to turn it off. Why have the option in the first place? It was and still is a bit of a broken mechanic. That is my argument really, that it needs to have very good purpose in its use and implementation.
So you're saying because Alien Vision wasn't on by default it must have a drawback. Simply because the developers deemed that it was going to be off by default but the community and it's player deemed it necessary to track reliably, the very reason everyone was using it. It's a very poor decision to balance a race by making it more frustrating to play (Its purpose).
Would you kindly also explain why and how it's a poor implementation, because it was off by default? Because that's what I'm getting from your question, which doesn't really makes sense or warrant the kind of change they made.
Instead of changing something many people were perfectly fine with, and destroying the experience for a lot of players, UWE could simply release a few official MODS so that players have some AV schemes to choose from. Everybody is happy.
no they won't, too much design-pride. if you don't like their alien vision, you're wrong.
Personally I think AV has been a broken mechanic for quite some time now. People just use it indiscriminately, and you might as well have had the previous version as always on. It really added near to nothing to the game.
I think they should increase the intensity of the outlining the players/models they have currently, and either ditch having alien vision altogether, or make it something that you can use to 'scan sweep' the room so you can see the outlines of the map geometry. You could also have the eyes of the aliens flash orange and fade in time with it.
They have had previous versions that make use of this scanning effect.
It added plenty to the game, just read the post above yours. If anything, it's normal that added nothing and should have been removed.
I agree in what you are saying, but the implementation has just been poor from day one. I don't disagree that the old vision was great, but I didn't like that there was basically no need to turn it off. Why have the option in the first place? It was and still is a bit of a broken mechanic. That is my argument really, that it needs to have very good purpose in its use and implementation.
you want drawbacks?
i'd turn it off to check if i was in a dark place, i'd turn it off sometimes to spit or bilebomb, i'd turn it off to more easily see marine flashlights.
really, you could say exactly the same thing for marine flashlights, there's literally no reason not to have it on the entire time... except in certain circumstances. i'm fairly confident that I turned my flashlight off about as frequently as i turned my alien vision off.
Comments
don't see why we can't talk.about that too. I don't like it, but I don't despise it with hatred of a thousand burning suns either. I can learn to tolerate it I guess. until they make regular vision useful when biting, I will use it. this thread is a good record of the vitriol accrued by a 24 hour release of a misguided prioritization of design over gameplay. let it stand to remind the designers that they should actually take their players into consideration before making fundamental changes to the game.
my question. did anyone actually like 252 vision overall? im not asking if you like the intent, but the actual implementation.
i feel i'm safe in saying that the 252 vision changes received almost universal condemnation from players. I'd like a poll done.
The real issue I feel stems more from the underutilization of dark lighting rather than either vision mode being terrible, especially considering the improvements made to alien vision in 253.
Oh your looking for bugs and want the communities help.... ALIEN VISION IS BUGGED... From what I'm reading at least.
So yeah I agree with everyone regarding the contrast argument.
It was far worse though at one point in testing, when marines had no highlights at all and alien teammates were always brightly outlined! Lol
Why was it changed when there was nothing wrong with it in the first place?
so that you are forced to appreciate the artwork
so that you are forced to see people's costumes
because gameplay is secondary to these things
Together with the skulk movement fix, I'm nearly back to my old level.
The enhanced vision is still very bright in...well, in bright areas lol...but really comes to it's own in shadey places, which is on most of the map.
Now the silvery marines are easier to focus on, than during the default vision, imo.
Default vision vs a Marine, I'm not sure if it's the skulk fix, or the AV itself...guess both, as this also plays much better.
And apart from the game-impact, I really love this enhanced AV.
The old green/orange always felt to digital to me, but this new version looks much more organic, a great addition to the alien theme.
Running on DX11, dunno if this makes it all even prettier.
You can't fix something that isn't broken. Alien vision has worked that way for AT LEAST 2 years now. I can't remember if it was implemented when I first started playing (july 2011) but it was definitely very shortly after that. If they didn't intend for it to work that way, they would've changed it before now. This new alien vision still blows, but its better today than it was yesterday.
I was playing with a friend and the first thing he told me was that he disliked the new AV due to the contrast. This seems to be the general issue with it. My friend actually wanted the old one back as he liked the alien look it gave.
Personally I'd go for toning down the AV contrast and adding the old one back in as an option. Much like rich and minimal infestation.
I don't see why we can't have both unless there's technical hurdles. Having the old AV as a secondary option would please everyone and the old AV is far from an advantage over the current implementation. But I reckon the issue with AV and glass has not yet been resolved? That could be a problem on biodome.
Kill the contrast and I'll love it.
I hope it wasn't removed because the devs wanted us to look at the artwork more because that would be absolutely ridiculous.
Nah it's great if we could see the fancy stuff more.
I think the idea is good, just need to tone down the new AV a little bit, and increase marine highlighting to combat the melee-disorientation effect.
But the new alien vision itself is like staring into a light bulb. Bright orange on blinding white even in rooms with the power off? My brain craves contrast and a more eye-pleasing palette. The base color really needs to be a dull color so people don't get headaches.
(And with everything highlighted I am having a hard time telling what has and hasn't been parasited. Do we need a new parasite effect?)
Marines are still stuck playing natural can'tseeshit lection unfortunately
Bonus points for turning it off in the same fashion.
that was suppose to be the purpose of alien vision.....
/thread
The new normal vision is so visually cluttered that you can't keep track of marines in CQC. For a melee unit, that's a problem. Couple that with the draw damage change, and the fact that aliens are also highlighted exactly like marines, and so are structures, and add in umbra/spores/mist etc etc and the reduced performance and massive input lag, and it's an absolutely horrible mess right now.
The new normal vision is in almost every single way possible worse than the old alien vision, with the exception of draw distance (which is still too short anyway).
The old alien vision had the following benefits:
Allowed tracking in CQC for a melee unit in a fast-movement FPS game
Simplified visuals meant better contrast between units of interest
Simplified visuals allowed geometry to be assessed more easily, enabling wall-jumping without getting caught on tiny bits of sticking out sections, or sticking to walls: more clutter makes this much harder at high level
Fewer headaches from having to constantly try to discern what is marine, what is a dropped weapon, what is a friendly from infestation and textures
Increased difference between playing marine and playing alien - better asymmetry which complements the asymmetric gameplay nicely
I don't want to stop you playing with the current normal vision, but I do want an option that allows me to see enemies and track them in CQC. Reverting draw damage changes, fixing performance and input lag would be a good start, and all absolutely necessary, but they won't affect the horrendous visual cluttering that we now have.
I haven't yet played any PCWs with this, but it's going to be painful, that's for sure. And not in justified-but-painful way, either.
I think they should increase the intensity of the outlining the players/models they have currently, and either ditch having alien vision altogether, or make it something that you can use to 'scan sweep' the room so you can see the outlines of the map geometry. You could also have the eyes of the aliens flash orange and fade in time with it.
They have had previous versions that make use of this scanning effect.
I agree that the old AV did alienate (:D) the textures to much.
But all that is needed to be done is to make HUZEs AV mod the default view! Orange surface for the whole marine instead of a line will make a very big difference in CQC.
It added plenty to the game, just read the post above yours. If anything, it's normal that added nothing and should have been removed.
I agree in what you are saying, but the implementation has just been poor from day one. I don't disagree that the old vision was great, but I didn't like that there was basically no need to turn it off. Why have the option in the first place? It was and still is a bit of a broken mechanic. That is my argument really, that it needs to have very good purpose in its use and implementation.
Would you kindly also explain why and how it's a poor implementation, because it was off by default? Because that's what I'm getting from your question, which doesn't really makes sense or warrant the kind of change they made.
no they won't, too much design-pride. if you don't like their alien vision, you're wrong.
you want drawbacks?
i'd turn it off to check if i was in a dark place, i'd turn it off sometimes to spit or bilebomb, i'd turn it off to more easily see marine flashlights.
really, you could say exactly the same thing for marine flashlights, there's literally no reason not to have it on the entire time... except in certain circumstances. i'm fairly confident that I turned my flashlight off about as frequently as i turned my alien vision off.