moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Something that a bunch have people have said that I don't understand at all. Why is a section of a map being "useless" a problem? Doesn't that just mean that the effective map is smaller? I understand how it would cause a problem for new players to focus on an area of the map that isn't important, but why is this a problem for everyone else?
Consider the landing pad in ns_hera for instance. This was inconsequential to the map for most of the life of ns. All it did is add ambiance, and this was OK.
If you spawn in Terminal you are walking away from the center of the map, in the complete opposite direction. Not to mention that Landing pad is over all a pretty horrible 'room' in terms of balance/gameplay in my opinion.
I might be wrong, but as far as I know aliens had no way of getting to that outer RT on hera except for going through the marine base, thus only adding an extra small layer of protection to that RT. This wasn't a room that aliens could hide underneath without a chance of dying unless a marine would be permanently stationed there to camp (sounds like amazing gameplay, right?).
I don't have a problem with landing pad per se, except for that aliens can hide underneath it indefinately. But at the moment it is just a room that takes the player as far as way from the combat as possible and isn't vital to any aspect of the map, except for maybe "lore"..
Something that a bunch have people have said that I don't understand at all. Why is a section of a map being "useless" a problem? Doesn't that just mean that the effective map is smaller? I understand how it would cause a problem for new players to focus on an area of the map that isn't important, but why is this a problem for everyone else?
because new players affect everyone who plays on that server, particularly their team
I really wish comp players weren't used as a scapegoat for every change people don't like in games...
if more comp players actually understood that they aren't even playing the same game as everyone else, it would be a start...
but when people proclaim "comp balance is the same as pub balance" as some mantra, the backlash is expected
what you guys need to realize is that how people feel about the experience is never wrong
comp players tend to understand the mechanics better so they can justify their statements with coherent sentences
bad players don't know why they hate something, but almost all the time there is a logical reason for it
but if you view it from the narrow lens of 6v6 with excellent organization and coordinated aggression you are never going to find that reason
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
It still applies. There is a large divide between low-player-count and high-player-count servers because of their vastly different playstyles. People that like one tend to dislike the other. 4TP maps don't work for the strategic teamwork oriented playstyle of high-player-count servers as it really limits the available strategic moves while also increasing reliance on shooting, which fits the playstyle of low-player-count servers rather nicely.
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
It still applies. There is a large divide between low-player-count and high-player-count servers because of their vastly different playstyles. People that like one tend to dislike the other. 4TP maps don't work for the strategic teamwork oriented playstyle of high-player-count servers as it really limits the available strategic moves while also increasing reliance on shooting, which fits the playstyle of low-player-count servers rather nicely.
Please don't call it "strategic teamwork" when its really mass waddling from room to room shooting everywhere, everyone saving for exos and asking where they are, ground skulking, gorges sitting a corner doing their own thing, and over half the alien team saving for onos. And please tell me whats wrong with the increased reliance on shooting in a first person SHOOTER game?
comp players tend to understand the mechanics better so they can justify their statements with coherent sentences
bad players don't know why they hate something, but almost all the time there is a logical reason for it
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
It still applies. There is a large divide between low-player-count and high-player-count servers because of their vastly different playstyles. People that like one tend to dislike the other. 4TP maps don't work for the strategic teamwork oriented playstyle of high-player-count servers as it really limits the available strategic moves while also increasing reliance on shooting, which fits the playstyle of low-player-count servers rather nicely.
Please don't call it "strategic teamwork" when its really mass waddling from room to room shooting everywhere, everyone saving for exos and asking where they are, ground skulking, gorges sitting a corner doing their own thing, and over half the alien team saving for onos. And please tell me whats wrong with the increased reliance on shooting in a first person SHOOTER game?
Please don't post inflammatory fallacies about high-player-count servers simply because you don't like them.
Also, the problem with increased reliance on shooting in a first person shooter game is that this isn't a first person shooter game. Trying to force it to be more like your average FPS makes it less strategic and, in my opinion, less fun.
I wish the same people who hate it would play on 16 player max server for a week and then come back and tell us what they say.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
It still applies. There is a large divide between low-player-count and high-player-count servers because of their vastly different playstyles. People that like one tend to dislike the other. 4TP maps don't work for the strategic teamwork oriented playstyle of high-player-count servers as it really limits the available strategic moves while also increasing reliance on shooting, which fits the playstyle of low-player-count servers rather nicely.
Please don't call it "strategic teamwork" when its really mass waddling from room to room shooting everywhere, everyone saving for exos and asking where they are, ground skulking, gorges sitting a corner doing their own thing, and over half the alien team saving for onos. And please tell me whats wrong with the increased reliance on shooting in a first person SHOOTER game?
Please don't post inflammatory fallacies about high-player-count servers simply because you don't like them.
Also, the problem with increased reliance on shooting in a first person shooter game is that this isn't a first person shooter game. Trying to force it to be more like your average FPS makes it less strategic and, in my opinion, less fun.
Everything I posted about what happens in high player count servers happens all the time. I play in 24 player count servers because that's what populated when I log on and that is what happens. When I command games it drives me nuts when not enough people buy shotguns, because they are saving for exos. I can't get different groups of people to do different things at the same time, its everyone or no one. When I command aliens, I get terrible skulks, too many gorges, no fades, and if the game lasts long enough 294587 onos. Oh, and I about had a aneurysm when you said this game isnt a first person shooter game. Its not solely a FPS, thats what makes ns2 great, but its still a FPS for the ground player.
I also think its your opinion that what super sars posted is flammatory fallacies about high player count servers..
I think he had a valid observation
It is fallacious because it has nothing to do with player count and everything to do with player skill. Yes, that is what a bunch of rookies end up looking like, but that remains true whether it is 6v6 or 100v100. My posts were in reference to competently skilled players.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2013
The new docking isn't very popular in our pugs at the moment. I like it conceptually but rarely see aliens win and this happens in 6 vs 6 and 12 vs 12 and mostly that's because of terminal just being so close to court yard. I've suggested it before but I will do so again with a picture:
I added those lines for WasabiOne to save him some effort. This map has much better flow as the direction of res capping (ie landing -> cafe -> bar and landing -> east wing) doesn't require you to head in the opposite direction of the action allowing for normal rotations rather than awkward backcapping. It also increases the distance to court yard and locker so that marines can't as easily get to stab/maint which are quite problematic atm.
Also, Dux has stated he doesn't really want to put the map through too many more changes as he wants to work on Biodome, and the fundamental issues that need fixing (locker proximitry to court, terminal/cafe) will probably take much too long to do. At this point it's worth experimenting with some easy fixes. Perhaps you could release a version with this and It can be tested.
Also, because landing pad is a bit of a bore, consider replacing landing with that from last stand.
Thank goodness none of the servers I play have docking in rotation any more. Did anyone save a copy of it from pre-updates so it could be added to the workshop for pub servers to add back in?
Dux needs to get rid of her thin skin though - you can't expect people to shower you with praise when they're disappointed in something and get ticked off at them and call them haters when they don't. You're Unknown Worlds and we're the customers and also the greatest possible marketing team the game could have. To get publicly pissed off at your customers is bad form.
To reply "but the testers liked it" tells me what I initially thought about the map - it's a great competitive level map. In fact, the first thing I said was "wow, I wish we had a great fade here, but none of us know the secret fade hax so we lose." To paraphrase, that is. For pubs the map could be renamed "egglock aliens within 3 minutes, rinse, repeat."
I miss the old map, but I sure as heck ain't gonna play the new one anymore. 10 times hoping I was wrong about it was about 9 too many.
I know I’m only one of these little public server players who actually nobody cares about…
But I would like to say my unimportant opinion:
I’m very sad what happened to docking.
It was one of my favorite maps…
Before the last update/changes docking were one of the most played maps on public servers.
So many players where voting for docking that you thought “really? Docking? AGAIN?” …
Now we have the situation that everybody on the pub servers (where I’m playing) is initiating a map change when the cycle changes to the new docking, because this map is no fun anymore… I talked to nearly my whole ns2 contact list (all pub players) and I found nearly nobody liking the new map design.
I really can’t understand why UWE is (in my opinion) destroying “old” funny maps instead of developing new ones? What is the point about this? Why are you doing it this way?
I mean the last “little” changes (east wing etc) where okay… but when you redesign a whole map (that it looks and feels like a complete new one) why not distribute it as “new map”? Like “ns_docking_2” or something like that?
Sorry for my bad English.
Best Regards
I actually agree with his point, if the map is an actual improvement in balanc, and more fun to play, I'd hope it would overtake it's ancestor on merit. not just because it was rolled into an update.
I also think its your opinion that what super sars posted is flammatory fallacies about high player count servers..
I think he had a valid observation
he implied that players that played on higher player count servers were generally less skilled and strategic than those that played on lower player count servers. euphemistically speaking. if that is not inherently inflammatory, I don't know what is. also, his statement was not phrased as an observation, but an insult, so please understand why people took it as such. I don't disagree that there was an observation/anecdote, I disagree with his tone, I also disagree with your chastising him for being correct.
Thank goodness none of the servers I play have docking in rotation any more. Did anyone save a copy of it from pre-updates so it could be added to the workshop for pub servers to add back in?
Dux needs to get rid of her thin skin though - you can't expect people to shower you with praise when they're disappointed in something and get ticked off at them and call them haters when they don't. You're Unknown Worlds and we're the customers and also the greatest possible marketing team the game could have. To get publicly pissed off at your customers is bad form.
To reply "but the testers liked it" tells me what I initially thought about the map - it's a great competitive level map. In fact, the first thing I said was "wow, I wish we had a great fade here, but none of us know the secret fade hax so we lose." To paraphrase, that is. For pubs the map could be renamed "egglock aliens within 3 minutes, rinse, repeat."
I miss the old map, but I sure as heck ain't gonna play the new one anymore. 10 times hoping I was wrong about it was about 9 too many.
So, general rage against dux and map testers, followed by a subjective opinion without specifics, reasoning, or even anecdotal evidence (come on, couldn't you atleast manage anecdotal evidence?). If this is what passes as constructive criticism now adays, then my constructive criticism for you is: go back to school.
Now we have the situation that everybody on the pub servers (where I’m playing) is initiating a map change when the cycle changes to the new docking, because this map is no fun anymore… I talked to nearly my whole ns2 contact list (all pub players) and I found nearly nobody liking the new map design.
This thread really demonstrates mass hysteria and group think at its finest. I give it a month tops before most players regain their senses and come to the realisation that new docking > old docking > refinery. Anyone still left raging after a while will undoubtedly still have no specifics they can point to.
New docking is superior to old docking, and here is why. In essence, the map plays exactly the same way only with alot of map issues fixed such as
- strong arc spots reduced/removed
- strong marine camping spots reduced/removed
- Easy courtyard map access issues reduced
- Cafe derp turtling removed
- Generator and courtyard now vastly easier to understand and navigate
- Courtyard less marine biased
- Maintenance RT as natural expansion much easier for aliens to secure.
While the degree of improvement can be argued, it's bonkers to say new docking has made the map worse.
People must understand that docking will always be 'bad' (note: inverted commas) simply because it is docking. That is, most players don't understand the concept of map specific play. Take any other widely accepted map, and you'll notice that all branching routes from team spawn are generally equally important, with tram probably being docking's closest cousin in terms of game flow due to hub. What this means is your average pubber doesn't need to think about where he chooses to go in order to be 'map effective'. Docking on the other hand is a rush map with very specific important routes, always has been, and always will be without some seriously huge redesign. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Any huge redesign would make docking not be docking.
So from what i gather reading this thread, it seems the only real problem docking has is a player base that still doesn't understand how to play the map many months after release. Thankfully, this is entirely fixable, and here are some suggested solutions
1) Rename the map from ns2_docking to ns2_pleasegotostabilitymonitoring
2) Put a TP in courtyard, then remove it after a week
3) Cross spawns only. gen/terminal, locker/dep.
*edit*
Also, on the topic of landing pad being a useless eye candy room. Who cares. Removing, revamping, or streamlining it won't magically make docking better. It's not like docking's biggest 'issues' stem from one useless room on the edge of the map. Time from term to cafe RT is consistent 10-15 seconds, and that is all that matters when it comes to landing pad.
TL;DR
This is a great opportunity for UWE to show leadership in rational thought and stay firm against the waves of self-hypnotised angry sheep.
I also think its your opinion that what super sars posted is flammatory fallacies about high player count servers..
I think he had a valid observation
he implied that players that played on higher player count servers were generally less skilled and strategic than those that played on lower player count servers. euphemistically speaking. if that is not inherently inflammatory, I don't know what is. also, his statement was not phrased as an observation, but an insult, so please understand why people took it as such. I don't disagree that there was an observation/anecdote, I disagree with his tone, I also disagree with your chastising him for being correct.
Interesting, i just saw him making an observation based on his own anecdotal experience.. I've experienced similar and i guess don't see it as insulting given i play all number ranges, and have seen it go both ways.
Meaning i dont necessarily agree with him, but it's still just descriptive anecdotal experience, not "inflammatory fallacies"??
a perfectly balanced map that isn't fun to play is still a bad map. I don't like docking, because the rush distances have gotten smaller, locker is still op, and I don't have fun moving around it as a skulk. don't like descent for the same reason, though thatis more I spend half my game traversing the map.
I immediately disliked the new changes purely from an aesthetic standpoint, but I have to say the map actually plays fairly well. People just don't actually give it a chance and cry over it not being the "old" Docking anymore when they've only tried it once or twice. I don't even understand. It plays nearly exactly like the old Docking, only better. You can still get to Maintenance and Stability reasonably quickly (which is what old Docking was all about), except all of Stability's issues are fixed, including being able to get there TOO quickly. Also, the lack of a Cafe tech point isn't really a problem. And even if it actually turns out to be, dux already said it can easily be readded. IMO it just means marines don't get a free tech point anymore when aliens spawn in Departures, so it's a welcome change.
The only problem I see, as someone already mentioned, is marines not having easy enough access to their two adjacent base RTs. Maybe the south area needs to be reworked so that Landing Pad has an RT but Cafe and Bar only have one RT combined.
Thank goodness none of the servers I play have docking in rotation any more. Did anyone save a copy of it from pre-updates so it could be added to the workshop for pub servers to add back in?
Dux needs to get rid of her thin skin though - you can't expect people to shower you with praise when they're disappointed in something and get ticked off at them and call them haters when they don't. You're Unknown Worlds and we're the customers and also the greatest possible marketing team the game could have. To get publicly pissed off at your customers is bad form.
To reply "but the testers liked it" tells me what I initially thought about the map - it's a great competitive level map. In fact, the first thing I said was "wow, I wish we had a great fade here, but none of us know the secret fade hax so we lose." To paraphrase, that is. For pubs the map could be renamed "egglock aliens within 3 minutes, rinse, repeat."
I miss the old map, but I sure as heck ain't gonna play the new one anymore. 10 times hoping I was wrong about it was about 9 too many.
If anyone sees anything constructive in this post, let me know. I seem to have missed it. You know, constructive as in criticism that helps dux to actually improve the map, constructive as in to point out the flaws.
Comments
Consider the landing pad in ns_hera for instance. This was inconsequential to the map for most of the life of ns. All it did is add ambiance, and this was OK.
I might be wrong, but as far as I know aliens had no way of getting to that outer RT on hera except for going through the marine base, thus only adding an extra small layer of protection to that RT. This wasn't a room that aliens could hide underneath without a chance of dying unless a marine would be permanently stationed there to camp (sounds like amazing gameplay, right?).
I don't have a problem with landing pad per se, except for that aliens can hide underneath it indefinately. But at the moment it is just a room that takes the player as far as way from the combat as possible and isn't vital to any aspect of the map, except for maybe "lore"..
Just below ns_supersiege.
I'm glad its not always the playtesters
because new players affect everyone who plays on that server, particularly their team
if more comp players actually understood that they aren't even playing the same game as everyone else, it would be a start...
but when people proclaim "comp balance is the same as pub balance" as some mantra, the backlash is expected
what you guys need to realize is that how people feel about the experience is never wrong
comp players tend to understand the mechanics better so they can justify their statements with coherent sentences
bad players don't know why they hate something, but almost all the time there is a logical reason for it
but if you view it from the narrow lens of 6v6 with excellent organization and coordinated aggression you are never going to find that reason
from the previous page.
They still won't like it. The BT mod tends to be fun for those people that like lower-player-count servers and not fun for those that like higher-player-count servers. This happens because 6v6 and 12v12 are played in completely different ways, and the BT mod focuses more on improving the 6v6 type playstyle. 6v6 tends to focus more on the shooting portion of the game with less teamwork strategy whereas 12v12 focuses on teamwork strategy with distinct roles (one Lerk Spores, one Lerk Umbras, one Gorge heal-sprays, and one Gorge Bile-bombs as an example).
I was talking about the new version of docking, you know, in the new docking thread. Not BT.
It still applies. There is a large divide between low-player-count and high-player-count servers because of their vastly different playstyles. People that like one tend to dislike the other. 4TP maps don't work for the strategic teamwork oriented playstyle of high-player-count servers as it really limits the available strategic moves while also increasing reliance on shooting, which fits the playstyle of low-player-count servers rather nicely.
Please don't call it "strategic teamwork" when its really mass waddling from room to room shooting everywhere, everyone saving for exos and asking where they are, ground skulking, gorges sitting a corner doing their own thing, and over half the alien team saving for onos. And please tell me whats wrong with the increased reliance on shooting in a first person SHOOTER game?
AHA! So pub players just don't understand thoroughly enough?
How to make them, then?.. hmmmm
Please don't post inflammatory fallacies about high-player-count servers simply because you don't like them.
Also, the problem with increased reliance on shooting in a first person shooter game is that this isn't a first person shooter game. Trying to force it to be more like your average FPS makes it less strategic and, in my opinion, less fun.
I think he had a valid observation
Everything I posted about what happens in high player count servers happens all the time. I play in 24 player count servers because that's what populated when I log on and that is what happens. When I command games it drives me nuts when not enough people buy shotguns, because they are saving for exos. I can't get different groups of people to do different things at the same time, its everyone or no one. When I command aliens, I get terrible skulks, too many gorges, no fades, and if the game lasts long enough 294587 onos. Oh, and I about had a aneurysm when you said this game isnt a first person shooter game. Its not solely a FPS, thats what makes ns2 great, but its still a FPS for the ground player.
It is fallacious because it has nothing to do with player count and everything to do with player skill. Yes, that is what a bunch of rookies end up looking like, but that remains true whether it is 6v6 or 100v100. My posts were in reference to competently skilled players.
I added those lines for WasabiOne to save him some effort. This map has much better flow as the direction of res capping (ie landing -> cafe -> bar and landing -> east wing) doesn't require you to head in the opposite direction of the action allowing for normal rotations rather than awkward backcapping. It also increases the distance to court yard and locker so that marines can't as easily get to stab/maint which are quite problematic atm.
Also, Dux has stated he doesn't really want to put the map through too many more changes as he wants to work on Biodome, and the fundamental issues that need fixing (locker proximitry to court, terminal/cafe) will probably take much too long to do. At this point it's worth experimenting with some easy fixes. Perhaps you could release a version with this and It can be tested.
Also, because landing pad is a bit of a bore, consider replacing landing with that from last stand.
Thank goodness none of the servers I play have docking in rotation any more. Did anyone save a copy of it from pre-updates so it could be added to the workshop for pub servers to add back in?
Dux needs to get rid of her thin skin though - you can't expect people to shower you with praise when they're disappointed in something and get ticked off at them and call them haters when they don't. You're Unknown Worlds and we're the customers and also the greatest possible marketing team the game could have. To get publicly pissed off at your customers is bad form.
To reply "but the testers liked it" tells me what I initially thought about the map - it's a great competitive level map. In fact, the first thing I said was "wow, I wish we had a great fade here, but none of us know the secret fade hax so we lose." To paraphrase, that is. For pubs the map could be renamed "egglock aliens within 3 minutes, rinse, repeat."
I miss the old map, but I sure as heck ain't gonna play the new one anymore. 10 times hoping I was wrong about it was about 9 too many.
I actually agree with his point, if the map is an actual improvement in balanc, and more fun to play, I'd hope it would overtake it's ancestor on merit. not just because it was rolled into an update.
he implied that players that played on higher player count servers were generally less skilled and strategic than those that played on lower player count servers. euphemistically speaking. if that is not inherently inflammatory, I don't know what is. also, his statement was not phrased as an observation, but an insult, so please understand why people took it as such. I don't disagree that there was an observation/anecdote, I disagree with his tone, I also disagree with your chastising him for being correct.
======= This thread really demonstrates mass hysteria and group think at its finest. I give it a month tops before most players regain their senses and come to the realisation that new docking > old docking > refinery. Anyone still left raging after a while will undoubtedly still have no specifics they can point to.
New docking is superior to old docking, and here is why. In essence, the map plays exactly the same way only with alot of map issues fixed such as
- strong arc spots reduced/removed
- strong marine camping spots reduced/removed
- Easy courtyard map access issues reduced
- Cafe derp turtling removed
- Generator and courtyard now vastly easier to understand and navigate
- Courtyard less marine biased
- Maintenance RT as natural expansion much easier for aliens to secure.
While the degree of improvement can be argued, it's bonkers to say new docking has made the map worse.
People must understand that docking will always be 'bad' (note: inverted commas) simply because it is docking. That is, most players don't understand the concept of map specific play. Take any other widely accepted map, and you'll notice that all branching routes from team spawn are generally equally important, with tram probably being docking's closest cousin in terms of game flow due to hub. What this means is your average pubber doesn't need to think about where he chooses to go in order to be 'map effective'. Docking on the other hand is a rush map with very specific important routes, always has been, and always will be without some seriously huge redesign. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Any huge redesign would make docking not be docking.
So from what i gather reading this thread, it seems the only real problem docking has is a player base that still doesn't understand how to play the map many months after release. Thankfully, this is entirely fixable, and here are some suggested solutions
1) Rename the map from ns2_docking to ns2_pleasegotostabilitymonitoring
2) Put a TP in courtyard, then remove it after a week
3) Cross spawns only. gen/terminal, locker/dep.
*edit*
Also, on the topic of landing pad being a useless eye candy room. Who cares. Removing, revamping, or streamlining it won't magically make docking better. It's not like docking's biggest 'issues' stem from one useless room on the edge of the map. Time from term to cafe RT is consistent 10-15 seconds, and that is all that matters when it comes to landing pad.
TL;DR
This is a great opportunity for UWE to show leadership in rational thought and stay firm against the waves of self-hypnotised angry sheep.
Interesting, i just saw him making an observation based on his own anecdotal experience.. I've experienced similar and i guess don't see it as insulting given i play all number ranges, and have seen it go both ways.
Meaning i dont necessarily agree with him, but it's still just descriptive anecdotal experience, not "inflammatory fallacies"??
The only problem I see, as someone already mentioned, is marines not having easy enough access to their two adjacent base RTs. Maybe the south area needs to be reworked so that Landing Pad has an RT but Cafe and Bar only have one RT combined.
If anyone sees anything constructive in this post, let me know. I seem to have missed it. You know, constructive as in criticism that helps dux to actually improve the map, constructive as in to point out the flaws.